Islah of women through Shuyookh?

[Taliban1]

:salam:

I've noticed that the Islah of women is done much better through Women Shaikhahs than through Shaikhs.

Example:

Dr Farhat Hashmi

Thousands of women have changed through her. Their lives have been changed. Their marital lives have changed. Her students are very well behaved and have great akhlaaq. I've seen this First hand. The best thing is that women can easily talk to her openly being a woman. They can relate to her.

Why don't we have proper Alimah Shaikhas who can guide women instead of Shaikhs?

I have never seen any Shaikh kind of woman from our side like Dr Farhat Hashmi. I know only one who comes close, Ustadha Humera Ahmad of ZainabAcademy. She's mureedah of Shaikh Zulfiqar Sahib. Her husband is Khalifah of Shaikh. Alhmadulillah alot of women have changed through her. I know first hand because even in my family women have changed through her.

It is always easy for a woman to talk to a woman than to a male Shaikh. We should have more experienced Shaikhas.

:jazak:

[ummitaalib]

wa'alaykumus salaam ww
Respected Mawlana,
Personally i know many women through whom other women have changed their lives and just by looking at them and being with them one is reminded of Allah subhaanahu wata'ala. I doubt if these women would be "famous" and known to the general public. Also with these women one can be sure of correct beliefs and actions as they have the right connections...by this i mean as in the case of one of my aapa's who is a hafizah and 'aalimah and is closely connected to a well known Shaykh with whom she has islahi ta'alluk. I know other women who are not even 'aalimahs but thier company is very beneficial. I know one sister who is devoted to the Tableegh Jama'at and is is source of inspiration for us. Out of all the women from whom i have taken lessons, advise etc, i know none who are "Full of takabbur, marital lives in pieces. No akhlaaq, no manners."...far from it in fact.

[Aram]

:ws:

i was under the impression women were not allowed to hold such positions :confused:

i have been confused over this issue, because i was told women can not be taken as shaykhas but the reasons were somewhat vague, such as she needs to take care of her household so won't get time for people, women should not be in leadership positions etc

[sudoku]

While on the other hand, If you look at the typical Mureedahs of our Shuyookh... Another story. Full of takabbur, marital lives in pieces. No akhlaaq, no manners.
This is gross generalization.

[mercyofAllah]

:salam:

While on the other hand, If you look at the typical Mureedahs of our Shuyookh... Another story. Full of takabbur, marital lives in pieces. No akhlaaq, no manners.

:jazak:
Bismillah
walaikum assalam
Too generalized statement??
I do agree that it would be great for women to get in touch with women shaikahs. I always wondered why it is not so and I thought there is no women shaikah and they cannot be. Khair anyway I could see significant improvement in myself after hearing the bayanat of sheikh maulana Abdus Sattar (db) in terms of takabbur, akhlaq and so on.

[mercyofAllah]

:ws:

i was under the impression women were not allowed to hold such positions :confused:
women should not be in leadership positions etc

Bismillahi
I came across the same thing.

[ummitaalib]

Bismillahi
I came across the same thing.

Thats the very reason why these humble, devoted women are not "known" to the general public as the male shuyookh are. For instance their talks and advices will be to women in privateand the effect they have is among women who attend their classes and not available on the market...and those women who do not hold classes, their effect is on those around her in her family and friend circle. Dr Farhat Hashmi's lectures are available as her talks are propagated and as far as i know she appears on TV while this is not deemed correct among Ulama.

[mercyofAllah]

Thats the very reason why these humble, devoted women are not "known" to the general public as the male shuyookh are. For instance their talks and advices will be to women in privateand the effect they have is among women who attend their classes and not available on the market...and those women who do not hold classes, their effect is on those around her in her family and friend circle. Dr Farhat Hashmi's lectures are available as her talks are propagated and as far as i know she appears on TV while this is not deemed correct among Ulama.

Bismillahi
:salam:
Well sister men or women this what we expect that we get a pious company. Now as a woman, it is obvious I will be more comfortable with only women. Not all women are from very deeni background and we do look for good deeni company. I understand how it would influence people's life when we get close contact of such people. I know there are pious muslimahs and only thing is communication with such people who most of the time keeps themselves to those are near. khair
jazaakiAllahu khayraa

[dr76]

:salam:

farhat hashmi and Al huda international are branded as deviants.. to the effect of a fatwa by Hazrat Maulana Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab db.. their preachings include women leading men in prayers ..
she has her own sweet way to decieve..

wa assalam..

[*Bubbles*]

Some of Farhat Hashmi's views are controversial. I used to listen to her talks frequently before , but I was told not to by my seniors , they are of the opinion she is secretly misleading women. Allahu Aalam.

Some of her views that differ with contemporary Hanafi ulemas are :

1. She says it's permitted for women to recite the Quran during their periods.

2. She says there is no need to offer qadhaa prayers for salaahs that were intentionally mised

[UmHasan]

Pious women are by nature, full of hayah and very concious of their pardah. They would not ever go on TV, radio or advertise themselves. Women conceal themselves and many do not even like their names to be disclosed amongst men would feel very uncomfortable to hear of themselves being praised amongst men. Since the time of the tab'een, women who have excelled in knowledge, piety, sulook and islah have existed but we just don't hear of them much. However, when it comes to guiding others through the paths of sulook and tasawwuf through bay'ah, it is men that will always lead the way.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:ws:

i was under the impression women were not allowed to hold such positions :confused:

i have been confused over this issue, because i was told women can not be taken as shaykhas but the reasons were somewhat vague, such as she needs to take care of her household so won't get time for people, women should not be in leadership positions etc

:ws:

Academic superiority doesn’t mean position of leadership.


First convert to Islam was a woman
First Shaheed in Islam was a woman
Most Hadeeth is narrated in Islam by a woman
+ Sayyida Aisha (RA) was amongst the most knowledgeable amongst Sahaba (RA)
In some of the best chains of Hadeeth there are Zainab Bint Kamal (RA) & Aisha Bint Abdul-Hadi (RA) who were considered the greatest Scholars of Hadeeth in Damascus to the extent that Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani (RA) narrates from them. Conservative estimates say that both of these Sayyidaat had memorised a least 400 books of Hadeeth with chains.


There is no real requirement for women to get their Islaah or knowledge through male Shuyukh and the reason it has come to this is because men have undermined women to such an extent that there are no longer Islamically qualified women.

The solution is not to link more women with men (for Islaah or whatever) but to develop the capability of our Muslimahs so there is less reliance on men. Men will always exceed due to their outward facing role (in Islam) nevertheless we don’t need Muslimahs to be exposed to men for Tajweed, Bahishti Zewar, Islah etc.

A Muslimah doesn’t need to make a song and dance about it and neither does she need to appear on Media (TV, Video etc) , she just needs to do her Islamic duty.

[Abu_Bilal]

Some of Farhat Hashmi's views are controversial. I used to listen to her talks frequently before , but I was told not to by my seniors , they are of the opinion she is secretly misleading women. Allahu Aalam.

Some of her views that differ with contemporary Hanafi ulemas are :

1. She says it's permitted for women to recite the Quran during their periods.

2. She says there is no need to offer qadhaa prayers for salaahs that were intentionally mised

Those are not the only misleading views she has. My close friend and teacher Mufti Ismael (DB) is known throughout Pakistan for his works on ghair muqallideen and al-huda. I have been involved with him during his research, and suffice to say, our sisters should stay away from Al-Huda.

However, i will give one credit to Al-Huda, and that is that sisters who have joined Al-Huda have become strict followers of Niqaab and Pardaah.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

This is gross generalization.



Thats the very reason why these humble, devoted women are not "known" to the general public as the male shuyookh are. For instance their talks and advices will be to women in privateand the effect they have is among women who attend their classes and not available on the market...and those women who do not hold classes, their effect is on those around her in her family and friend circle. Dr Farhat Hashmi's lectures are available as her talks are propagated and as far as i know she appears on TV while this is not deemed correct among Ulama.



Pious women are by nature, full of hayah and very concious of their pardah. They would not ever go on TV, radio or advertise themselves. Women conceal themselves and many do not even like their names to be disclosed amongst men would feel very uncomfortable to hear of themselves being praised amongst men. Since the time of the tab'een, women who have excelled in knowledge, piety, sulook and islah have existed but we just don't hear of them much. However, when it comes to guiding others through the paths of sulook and tasawwuf through bay'ah, it is men that will always lead the way.

:salam:

As usual I am going to come across harsh but I don’t really care.

I know plenty of “Asian Salafi Sisters in Niqab” which I believe represents the same demographics as you three and most Deobandi women

They don’t interact with men.
They have Haya.
They stay at homes.
They don’t pursue a Career.
They look after husbands and children.

BUT in their communities they organise Halaqahs, they run forums, they run blogs, they have sites, they organise events all with full (and in fact) MUCH BETTER SEGREGATION!

So lets hear the excuse of deobandees as to why our Muslimahs need to seek out and be blessed by “Hazrat XYZ”. Genuine reasons as to why deobandi Muslimahs are different to any other Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah?

:jazak:

[sudoku]

:salam:

As usual I am going to come across harsh but I don’t really care.

I know plenty of “Asian Salafi Sisters in Niqab” which I believe represents the same demographics as you three and most Deobandi women

They don’t interact with men.
They have Haya.
They stay at homes.
They don’t pursue a Career.
They look after husbands and children.

BUT in their communities they organise Halaqahs, they run forums, they run blogs, they have sites, they organise events all with full (and in fact) MUCH BETTER SEGREGATION!

So lets hear the excuse of deobandees as to why our Muslimahs need to seek out and be blessed by “Hazrat XYZ”. Genuine reasons as to why deobandi Muslimahs are different to any other Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah?

:jazak:

My post has nothing to do with what you posted.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

My post has nothing to do with what you posted.

:ws: Respected Aapa,

I am asking a genuine question. Why do “Asian Salafi stay home Niqabees” don’t think that they need to rely on men for their Islaah?

They seem to manage and teach the basics amongst each other just fine. There is no "Salafi Girls Darul-ulooms" or a "Salafi Shaykh" to impart Islaah to women?

:jazak:

[dr.ati]

:salam:

farhat hashmi and Al huda international are branded as deviants.. to the effect of a fatwa by Hazrat Maulana Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab db.. their preachings include women leading men in prayers ..
she has her own sweet way to decieve..

wa assalam..

Kindly provide a proof for this.I have advised many people to get their children admitted in her institutes and i would refrain from doing so if what you said is true.

[Abu_Uzair]

moulana taliban, i m very surprised to see that u praised dr.hashmi.......!
here is a fatawa of mufti taqi usmani sb about farhat hashmi
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/dr-farhat-hashmi-fatwaa-by-mufti-taqi.html
and some other fatwas about her
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/facts-about-dr-farhat-hashmi.html

here is allama binnori town fatwa
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/farhat-hashmi-fatwaa-by-binori-town.html

[dr.ati]

Some of Farhat Hashmi's views are controversial. I used to listen to her talks frequently before , but I was told not to by my seniors , they are of the opinion she is secretly misleading women. Allahu Aalam.

Some of her views that differ with contemporary Hanafi ulemas are :

1. She says it's permitted for women to recite the Quran during their periods.

2. She says there is no need to offer qadhaa prayers for salaahs that were intentionally mised

There is a valid difference of opinion regarding these two pints.

[sudoku]

:ws: Respected Aapa,

I am asking a genuine question. Why do “Asian Salafi stay home Niqabees” don’t think that they need to rely on men for their Islaah?

They seem to manage and teach the basics amongst each other just fine. There is no "Salafi Girls Darul-ulooms" or a "Salafi Shaykh" to impart Islaah to women?

:jazak:

:salam:

As for the bold, yes there are, in Pakistan I had a second cousin who studied in one. And AlHuda has hostels where girls stay and study.

Even if I were to give my reasoning, they would most probably be ripped apart by yourself or Moulana Taliban. So I think it's best I follow my late shaykh's advice and just keep out of this thread. Besides, there are enough Ulama (non UK/PK) to whom these questions can be asked.

[suleimanibnsalim]

The reason for less females to have reached the level of guiding others in a tasawwuf-sense is the same reason women did not become prophets: they may well reach the highest levels, but due to their social roles they can't take on the responsibility of acting as a shaykhah in tasawwuf -- assuming that's what you all mean by 'islah'. That's what is meant by كمل من الرجال الكثير ولم يكمل من النساء إلا أربع according to a number of scholars. bringing farhat hashmi in is absurd.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

As for the bold, yes there are, in Pakistan I had a second cousin who studied in one. And AlHuda has hostels where girls stay and study.

Even if I were to give my reasoning, they would most probably be ripped apart by yourself or Moulana Taliban. So I think it's best I follow my late shaykh's advice and just keep out of this thread. Besides, there are enough Ulama (non UK/PK) to whom these questions can be asked.

:ws:

I meant in UK and I should have clarified and it was my mistake. If you believe that answering you is tantamount to ripping apart and your words should simply be taken just because they are coming from you with no response then that's fine.

Subhanullah! This forum is getting worse by the day!



The reason for less females to have reached the level of guiding others in a tasawwuf-sense is the same reason women did not become prophets: they may well reach the highest levels, but due to their social roles they can't take on the responsibility of acting as a shaykhah in tasawwuf -- assuming that's what you all mean by 'islah'. That's what is meant by كمل من الرجال الكثير ولم يكمل من النساء إلا أربع according to a number of scholars. bringing farhat hashmi in is absurd.

:ws:

I don’t know what Maulana Taliban is asking but my question is very simple and I haven’t asked for women Shuyukh in Tassawuff.

Why do you need a Shaykh of Tassawuff or a Male teacher to teach basics of Tajweed and other books in a Girls Darul-uloom? Majority of women don’t require extensive and elaborate guidance to require contact with male Shuyukh!

:jazak:

[dr.ati]

I am so surprised to see the opposition for Dr Farhat Hashmi here. How capable is the present Madrassah system to deal with the ladies of this era? Almost all the school of thoughts have isolated setups for the ladies and all of them are equally dysfunctional mainly due to the format of courses , teaching staff which lacks the skills to impress the worldly educated students and their typical academic hours which make it difficult for some students to attend the madrassahs. Dr Farhat Hashmi has a vibrant set up and is using all valid techniques to attract the students. If someone is doing such a great work then why castigate her so badly for a few minor mistakes ? Just because she is a non-deobandi?
Think for a moment and tell me with all your honesty How capable is the present Madrassah system to deal with the ladies of this era?

[Aram]

:ws: Respected Aapa,

I am asking a genuine question. Why do “Asian Salafi stay home Niqabees” don’t think that they need to rely on men for their Islaah?

They seem to manage and teach the basics amongst each other just fine. There is no "Salafi Girls Darul-ulooms" or a "Salafi Shaykh" to impart Islaah to women?

:jazak:

salafis in general have quite bad attitudes and this extends to the sisters too, i have noticed this less amongst the deobandi sisters, maybe this has something to do with islah but they are generally more tolerant of people they disagree with, the deobandi sisters overall have better akhlaaq in my opinion

note: i know im generalising but im talking from personal experience

[Colonel_Hardstone]

I am so surprised to see the opposition for Dr Farhat Hashmi here. How capable is the present Madrassah system to deal with the ladies of this era? Almost all the school of thoughts have isolated setups for the ladies and all of them are equally dysfunctional mainly due to the format of courses , teaching staff which lacks the skills to impress the worldly educated students and their typical academic hours which make it difficult for some students to attend the madrassahs. Dr Farhat Hashmi has a vibrant set up and is using all valid techniques to attract the students. If someone is doing such a great work then why castigate her so badly for a few minor mistakes ? Just because she is a non-deobandi?
Think for a moment and tell me with all your honesty How capable is the present Madrassah system to deal with the ladies of this era?


salafis in general have quite bad attitudes and this extends to the sisters too, i have noticed this less amongst the deobandi sisters, maybe this has something to do with islah but they are generally more tolerant of people they disagree with, the deobandi sisters overall have better akhlaaq in my opinion

note: i know im generalising but im talking from personal experience

:ws:

Some do and I know and accept but thats not the point, here.

Why can’t the Deobandi Sisters with their beautiful Akhlaaq establish Halaqahs and why can’t the deobandi Alimahs with their superior knowledge, Taqwa and Akhlaaq teach girls.

The point from day 1 has been trying to seek an answer for reliance on men!

I am neither promoting nor really care about Dr Farhat Hashmi.

I am not promoting a woman to become Shaykh or leader nor want a Muslimah to take her Niqaab of and come on media (or youtube etc.)

I just want to know the reasons for men teaching women basics of their Deen and attending to minor issues in Islaah? I honestly don’t understand the reasons for this?


Why do women need "strange+Na-mehram" men for their Islaah and basic teaching of Islam?


Where is the Shariah backing for this?

[abuhajira]

:ws:

Subhanullah! This forum is getting worse by the day!

:salam:

Yes it is, Jazak Allah Colonel for all your efforts.

:ws:

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

Yes it is, Jazak Allah Colonel for all your efforts.

:ws:

:ws:

Ajeeb Maulana! Is it me causing this? What do you mean?

[True Life]

:salam:


Why can’t the Deobandi Sisters with their beautiful Akhlaaq establish Halaqahs and why can’t the deobandi Alimahs with their superior knowledge, Taqwa and Akhlaaq teach girls.You definitely have a point. But I doubt that the above-mentioned are non-existent in the UK.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

You definitely have a point. But I doubt that the above-mentioned are non-existent in the UK.

:ws:

Some of the Aaps here are probably active in their communities but we are discussing UK-wide. If the Deobandi Sisters wear Niqab, don't talk to men, stay at home then so do Salafi Sisters.

Why does one group require strange/Na-Mehram men and other doesn't?

:jazak:

[dr.ati]

Why can’t the Deobandi Sisters with their beautiful Akhlaaq establish Halaqahs and why can’t the deobandi Alimahs with their superior knowledge, Taqwa and Akhlaaq teach girls.

The point from day 1 has been trying to seek an answer for reliance on men!



I remember that there used to be a an aged lady in every street of our village who would teach Naa'zira and Tajweed to kids. The same ladies would be invited to deliver speeches at homes to a group of ladies and they would come up with a few stories from Qasas ul Anbiyaa mostly. The Deobandi sisters usually have a very good Akhlaq but their modesty keeps them limited to the role i mentioned above. I don't think so that there is any good stimulus provided to the Deobandi ladies to become more active than this , atleast in Pakistan.
On the other hand , though Salafism stands on more hardcore interpretations , they are much more vibrant than the deobandis.They have an inbuilt sort of characteristics of fitting themselves according to the time.I am yet to find out the reasons for this.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

I remember that there used to be a an aged lady in every street of our village who would teach Naa'zira and Tajweed to kids. The same ladies would be invited to deliver speeches at homes to a group of ladies and they would come up with a few stories from Qasas ul Anbiyaa mostly. The Deobandi sisters usually have a very good Akhlaq but their modesty keeps them limited to the role i mentioned above. I don't think so that there is any good stimulus provided to the Deobandi ladies to become more active than this , atleast in Pakistan.

:salam:

Same here in UK.

Doebandees have a problem with Dr Farhat Hashmi, fair enough.

What they need to understand that is due to Masha’Allah the rejuvenation of Islamic spirit Muslimahs need to and want to learn Islam and where there is a demand supply will come from somewhere.

When the Deobandees are not doing their job, Dr Farhat Hashmi is! So giving Fatwaas and highlighting her errors isn’t the solution. Providing opportunities in a better and professional manner is the answer.

There is no reason to rely on men to teach Tajweed, basic Arabic, Aqaid , Fiqh and even basic Islaah like don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t have jealousy etc.

Where there are specific issues involved then deal through men (who are Mahram)

When dealing through men (who are Mahram) isn’t possible and women aren't capable, deal with the rules and regulations as stipulated in Qur’aan & Sunnah.


The last line isn't and shouldn't be the first course of action. If thats not the case I would love to know why?

[True Life]

:salam:

What I can judge from our respected sisters on SF is that they have a strong sense of community (even when probably most takes place hidden from the brothers in their own section) and are eager to counsel sisters (and even brothers) in distress. Also, many of the major events on here are promoted by sisters: Shaykh Akram Nadwi, As-Suffa Institute & Cordoba Academy for example. This all might yet not be so organized and in quantity compared to Salafi sisters, but having a real UK-wide structure (or organization operating UK-wide) is something not even the Deobandi brothers have achieved yet. Am I going wrong somewhere? Am I missing the point? I'm ready to be corrected.

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

As usual I am going to come across harsh but I don’t really care.

I know plenty of “Asian Salafi Sisters in Niqab” which I believe represents the same demographics as you three and most Deobandi women

They don’t interact with men.
They have Haya.
They stay at homes.
They don’t pursue a Career.
They look after husbands and children.

BUT in their communities they organise Halaqahs, they run forums, they run blogs, they have sites, they organise events all with full (and in fact) MUCH BETTER SEGREGATION!

So lets hear the excuse of deobandees as to why our Muslimahs need to seek out and be blessed by “Hazrat XYZ”. Genuine reasons as to why deobandi Muslimahs are different to any other Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah?

:jazak:
Assalaamu 'alaykum
brother colonel if i may say so yes, you do come across harsh and you may not care but those of us who know and love women devoted to practicing and propagating deen along with having Hazrat XYZ's guidance and blessing and du'a care that a better picture be painted of these women!

I know plenty women who are Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah They are all around us, only you brothers do not and will not know them...thats how successful they are in their devotion to follow the command of hijaab.

[ummitaalib]

salafis in general have quite bad attitudes and this extends to the sisters too, i have noticed this less amongst the deobandi sisters, maybe this has something to do with islah but they are generally more tolerant of people they disagree with, the deobandi sisters overall have better akhlaaq in my opinion

note: i know im generalising but im talking from personal experience

i agree and i too am talking from experience. I have many times been at the receiving end of their onslaught and alhamdulillah, my islahi ta'allk with shaykh came to my rescue

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Assalaamu 'alaykum
brother colonel if i may say so yes, you do come across harsh and you may not care but those of us who know and love women devoted to practicing and propagating deen along with having Hazrat XYZ's guidance and blessing and du'a care that a better picture be painted of these women!

I know plenty women who are Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah They are all around us, only you brothers do not and will not know them...thats how successful they are in their devotion to follow the command of hijaab.

:ws:

I take your word for it and you have not addressed the issue and thats fine.

:jazak:

[ummitaalib]

:ws:

Some do and I know and accept but thats not the point, here.

Why can’t the Deobandi Sisters with their beautiful Akhlaaq establish Halaqahs and why can’t the deobandi Alimahs with their superior knowledge, Taqwa and Akhlaaq teach girls.

The point from day 1 has been trying to seek an answer for reliance on men!

I am neither promoting nor really care about Dr Farhat Hashmi.

I am not promoting a woman to become Shaykh or leader nor want a Muslimah to take her Niqaab of and come on media (or youtube etc.)

I just want to know the reasons for men teaching women basics of their Deen and attending to minor issues in Islaah? I honestly don’t understand the reasons for this?


Why do women need "strange+Na-mehram" men for their Islaah and basic teaching of Islam?


Where is the Shariah backing for this?

maybe you should go back in history....why dont you brothers understand that there is strict pardah observed and extensive measures taken to prevent fitnah where women ask for islahi ta'alluk or when they seek deeni knowledge. Why all this constant bickering amnd negativity about this, thats what i do not honestly understand!

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

You definitely have a point. But I doubt that the above-mentioned are non-existent in the UK.
assalaamu 'alaykum...let me assure you that they are very existent alhamdulillah!

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Assalaamu 'alaykum
brother colonel if i may say so yes, you do come across harsh and you may not care but those of us who know and love women devoted to practicing and propagating deen along with having Hazrat XYZ's guidance and blessing and du'a care that a better picture be painted of these women!

I know plenty women who are Niqabi (who doesn’t interact with men), fulfils her role at home but also find time for Islamic Dawah They are all around us, only you brothers do not and will not know them...thats how successful they are in their devotion to follow the command of hijaab.


maybe you should go back in history....why dont you brothers understand that there is strict pardah observed and extensive measures taken to prevent fitnah where women ask for islahi ta'alluk or when they seek deeni knowledge. Why all this constant bickering amnd negativity about this, thats what i do not honestly understand!

:ws:

I take your word about me being harsh and apologise.

Due to my weakness you have not understood the issue and hence not answered and that’s fine.
:jazak:


:salam:

What I can judge from our respected sisters on SF is that they have a strong sense of community (even when probably most takes place hidden from the brothers in their own section) and are eager to counsel sisters (and even brothers) in distress. Also, many of the major events on here are promoted by sisters: Shaykh Akram Nadwi, As-Suffa Institute & Cordoba Academy for example. This all might yet not be so organized and in quantity compared to Salafi sisters, but having a real UK-wide structure (or organization operating UK-wide) is something not even the Deobandi brothers have achieved yet. Am I going wrong somewhere? Am I missing the point? I'm ready to be corrected.

The issue is about "grass-roots" simple Halaqahs run by women for women and not Rolls-Royce solutions.

And all I have asked is “What is the Shariah requirement and reason for a Muslimah to resort to a strange/Na-Mehram man” as the first step to learning Islam? These matters can be taught by Muslimahs to Muslimahs.

:jazak:

[waqasmahmahmood]

i have heard all the time protect ur gaze .....but this also applies to women................. from the "deeni" women in niqab it is HARAM to look at a non mahram

[True Life]

:salam:


The issue is about "grass-roots" simple Halaqahs run by women for women and not Rolls-Royce solutions.

And all I have asked is “What is the Shariah requirement and reason for a Muslimah to resort to a strange/Na-Mehram man” as the first step to learning Islam? These matters can be taught by Muslimahs to Muslimahs.

:jazak:OK, you mean something similair to Masturat Taleem? Sorry, to bring TJ up in this topic. (Yes, I am obsessed & fanatic. :cheesygri)

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

OK, you mean something similair to Masturat Taleem? Sorry, to bring TJ up in this topic. (Yes, I am obsessed & fanatic. :cheesygri)

:ws:

Mastooraat Taleem (in Urdu of Fazail-e-Aamaal) is probably the SINGLE BIGGEST CAUSE of Muslimahs in the 90's and early 2000s moving away from Jamaat.

Many women sat in them because “they were told to” and as soon as they had some independence Ta’leem is the last place where they would go, again.


Switch to English
Switch to a structured and well thought out Halaqah


And you have a deal!

[UmHasan]

The adherance to purdah and segregation from men is much greater amongst practising Deobandi sisters than Salafi or Barelwi sisters. I don't say this to demean them but only to praise the level of pardah amongst Deobandi sisters. This will mean there are less global and national personalities amongst them but does not mean they don't get things done in their communities. Salafis sisters do not have any national-wide organisation neither, so using them as an example does not work.

There is so much for Deobandi women besides TJ halaqah. I don't understand what more is required. There are madaaris, makaatib, courses, events, days out, fun days, classes, seminars, counselling services etc,etc for women all over the country. What is lacking? I genuinely don't understand. In fact, if the number of these events are compared to the relative population, I think there is more in the UK for women than in India, Pakistan, South Africa, America, Canada and the Arab lands. A Muslim woman in the UK living in a Muslim community would have a choice of places to go to to learn Islam without having to travel very far at all. What exactly are we lacking?

[Taliban1]

:salam:

Even if I were to give my reasoning, they would most probably be ripped apart by yourself or Moulana Taliban.

:ws:

Astaghfirullah

[sudoku]

:ws:

Astaghfirullah

I am sorry if you took offense.

[abuhajira]

i have heard all the time protect ur gaze .....but this also applies to women................. from the "deeni" women in niqab it is HARAM to look at a non mahram

:salam:

It is haram to use such bold fonts on this forum. Please read the rules.

:ws:

[Taliban1]

:ws:

I don’t know what Maulana Taliban is asking but my question is very simple and I haven’t asked for women Shuyukh in Tassawuff.

:jazak:

:salam:

My question is the same as your Question. It's very plain and simple.

There was no need to make it into a big debate. I've said this 1000 of times that when a generalization is made, people are automatically exempted from it.

Our women have the capability to become great Alimahs and great Shaikhahs. They should guide women in all fields whether it be Ilmi line or Tasawwuf line.

I have seen that women guide women better. There is no need for women to turn to Non-Mehram Shaikhs.

My mother is a very famous writer in the Deeni circles. She was an editor of a very popular magazine. She used to give Bayans also. So what I saw was hundreds of women would contact her for their problems and Alhamdulillah they were solved. We got so many letters and phone calls daily.

What I saw was that a Woman can help women better than a Male Shaikh. Women can discuss their private matters with a woman openly. Many women used to discuss their marital problems with my Mother and alhamdulillah they were solved. Only a Woman can communicate with a Woman better!

There was one girls madressah in Karachi run by an Alimah. The Alimah Masha'Allah was top class and the staff there was female only. They created great Alimahs. The tarbiyat there was also superb.

My simple point is that Our Alimahs masha'Allah have the capability to Teach and Guide women. They should come forward take some steps and guide women in all fields, Tasawwuf, Education, Amaliyaat.

Sorry for hurting anyone.

Not favoring Dr Farhat Hashmi. Just taking her work as an example. Cause i've seen how she turned the world upside down in Karachi!

:jazak:

[Taliban1]

:salam:

I don't understand why this has turned into a big debate and argument?

My purpose was not to belittle Ulama. If Ulama were not there, I wouldn't have been a Molvi. If madressahs were not there, I would be a jahil right now.

My purpose was that we should act wisely and efficiently. Alimahs should be available to guide women.

I'm surprised this was turned into a 'Ulama bashing thread and everyone started defending themselves.

Exapmle: If an Alim makes a bayan that people don't read Namaz, you won't start saying Oh Shaikh we read namaz why are you generalizing it. We don't start fighting him. Because we know, it's not for us. It's for those who don't read namaz. So generalizations I make are not intended for the whole ummat.

Colonel Sahib please take this:

http://upload.rashedalmajid.net/uploads/6c8eb38750.jpg

[Taliban1]

:ws:

i was under the impression women were not allowed to hold such positions :confused:

i have been confused over this issue, because i was told women can not be taken as shaykhas but the reasons were somewhat vague, such as she needs to take care of her household so won't get time for people, women should not be in leadership positions etc

Wrong impression

[Taliban1]

Bismillah
I do agree that it would be great for women to get in touch with women shaikahs. I always wondered why it is not so and I thought there is no women shaikah and they cannot be. .

The work of a Shaikh is to guide people. Women can also be Shaikhahs and guide women. There's no restriction on that. They do that very well.

[Taliban1]

moulana taliban, i m very surprised to see that u praised dr.hashmi.......!
here is a fatawa of mufti taqi usmani sb about farhat hashmi
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/dr-farhat-hashmi-fatwaa-by-mufti-taqi.html
and some other fatwas about her
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/facts-about-dr-farhat-hashmi.html

here is allama binnori town fatwa
http://nabeelfaruqui.blogspot.com/2009/01/farhat-hashmi-fatwaa-by-binori-town.html

Hazrat, I praised her in her work. What I've seen is women from my family who used to wear jeans and tshirts, who didn't even know Kalimah have started attending Darse Quran.

Is it a good thing or bad? Atleast they started reading Kalimah.

[dr.ati]

Seriously , are we fighting against the time ? Indeed Al-huda institute has changed the lives of many. Here in Karachi , more and more educated people are admitting their children in Al-Huda. As colonel said that merely opposing and passing fatwas against Dr Farhat Hashimi won't do it. Why does not the "opposition" provide an alternative to the people? I feel that there is a certain tendency in us that we have evolved into some "opposed to evolution traditionalists". Why are we sticking to a century year old system as if any amendment in the system according to the time will cause a disaster ? The old wine can not be served in a new glass ? The time is changing. We don't have shy and modest ladies like "Akbari and Asghari" of Deputy Nazeer Ahmed's "Toubat ul Nasooh" to deal with anymore.

[hmdsalahuddin]

:salam:

At first I thought of posting reply in this thread.... but this thread is going worse and causing rift among brothers and sisters of this forum.

So moderators better close this thread.

[Maripat]

:salam:
There is a relevant point in this thread.
The manner adopted to raise that point is not appropriate-it is more of rabble rousing.
No we can not excuse that-we can excuse it only if it hits us. We do not have the authority to to excuse those things that are disrespectful to elders or have disregard for them.

The best possible action in the context of problem raised (I'll take Dr Ati's concern here) will be like this:

Hazrat there is a problem of keeping Muslimahs with modern education completely connected with Islam. In this regard the traditional Madarsa educated people seem to be ineffective. What can we do. Lots of damage is recurring and time is running out. What can we do?

I am just thinking aloud. And specific situation of UK is something that I can not speak about but there too the approach should be similar.
Wassalam

[mercyofAllah]

Bismillahi
I just want to say the points raised may be good but just take care of the way one propagate and words play main role and carry weight. So please do analyze the words before posting. Words can be simple but take care that it is written in best manner so it reaches people without provoking them or hurting them. This is really sad the way some thread goes when it can be carried in a positive light. This is for all including me.

[Taliban1]

:salam:

At first I thought of posting reply in this thread.... but this thread is going worse and causing rift among brothers and sisters of this forum.

So moderators better close this thread.

:ws:

Sorry but it's not going worse.

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

My simple point is that Our Alimahs masha'Allah have the capability to Teach and Guide women. They should come forward take some steps and guide women in all fields, Tasawwuf, Education, Amaliyaat.

Sorry for hurting anyone.

Not favoring Dr Farhat Hashmi. Just taking her work as an example. Cause i've seen how she turned the world upside down in Karachi!

:jazak:

wa'alaykumus salaam ww
ok let me see if i can say something which will answer your and brother colonel's question.

I am not an 'aalimah and have not tudied in any madrasah. I was a total ignoramous where deeni cammands are concerned. No idea what the faraidh of wudhu/ghusl were, no idea if we were performing our salaat postures correctly...etc etc. I can safely include most of my friends and friends in this statement (insha Allah they wont mind).

Alhamdulillah today i know these basics in quite a lot of detail...but i still had not joined any madrasah. So how/what led to this?

Answer: exactly the type of halaqas, lessons, classes which are mentoned in this thread are what led us to begin to correct our physical acts of worships. From masturaat jama'ats we learnt the fazaail side and my friends and myself must have joined at least 6 different classes in our area alone. Then when we would hear of so n so sister on the other side of london was so inspiring, we would travel to be in her company....alhamdulillah for these aapas and non-aapas who sacrificed their time while trying to wipe a runny-nosed child at the same time! May Allah ta'ala reward them in abundance. One of my most inspiring aapas was as old as my daughter and she graduated in bradford. One of my aapas was not an 'aalimah but we learnt tajweed from her and she was in ill health most of the time. The only thing i can say is that in my case i wanted to learn indepth regarding many things and so i searched further.

So now do you see my dilema? i simple, really, truly, honestly do not understand what the issue is! I'm talking about london alone but i know (through my family and freinds) that even more is available in other cities.

[ummitaalib]

Bismillahi
I just want to say the points raised may be good but just take care of the way one propagate and words play main role and carry weight. So please do analyze the words before posting. Words can be simple but take care that it is written in best manner so it reaches people without provoking them or hurting them. This is really sad the way some thread goes when it can be carried in a positive light. This is for all including me.

We can definitely do without the bolds, underlines and colours!

edit: looks nice but does not imply nice!

[Taliban1]

wa'alaykumus salaam ww
ok let me see if i can say something which will answer your and brother colonel's question.


:salam:

:jazak: For the great example.

We need more examples like this.

:jazak:

[Taliban1]

Bismillahi
I just want to say the points raised may be good but just take care of the way one propagate and words play main role and carry weight. So please do analyze the words before posting. Words can be simple but take care that it is written in best manner so it reaches people without provoking them or hurting them. This is really sad the way some thread goes when it can be carried in a positive light. This is for all including me.

Thank you for your great advice.

[mercyofAllah]

wa'alaykumus salaam ww
ok let me see if i can say something which will answer your and brother colonel's question.

I am not an 'aalimah and have not tudied in any madrasah. I was a total ignoramous where deeni cammands are concerned. No idea what the faraidh of wudhu/ghusl were, no idea if we were performing our salaat postures correctly...etc etc. I can safely include most of my friends and friends in this statement (insha Allah they wont mind).

Alhamdulillah today i know these basics in quite a lot of detail...but i still had not joined any madrasah. So how/what led to this?

Answer: exactly the type of halaqas, lessons, classes which are mentoned in this thread are what led us to begin to correct our physical acts of worships. From masturaat jama'ats we learnt the fazaail side and my friends and myself must have joined at least 6 different classes in our area alone. Then when we would hear of so n so sister on the other side of london was so inspiring, we would travel to be in her company....alhamdulillah for these aapas and non-aapas who sacrificed their time while trying to wipe a runny-nosed child at the sa time! May Allah ta'ala reward them in abundance. One of my most inspiring aapas was as old as my daughter and she graduated in bradford. One of my aapas was not an 'aalimah but we learnt tajweed from her and she was in ill health most of the time. The only thing i can say is that in my case i wanted to learn indepth reagarding many things and so i searched further.

So now do you see my dilema? i simple, really, truly, honestly do not understand what the issue is! I'm talking about london alone but i know (through my family and freinds) that even more is available in other cities.

Bismillahi
Assalamu alaikum sister
I think the main point of OP is that women should have islahi taluq with women and not with men as many have, be it contact through phone or email.
I think the OP is saying there should be more women shaikah available to women as men are available. Allahu alam

[Taliban1]

We can definitely do without the bolds, underlines and colours!

edit: looks nice but does not imply nice!

Sorry but it's easier to read and understand than a 1000 word paragraph without any formatting.

[amr123]

:salam:

:jazak: For the great example.

We need more examples like this.

:jazak:

:ws:

My Brother and family lives in Australia. There is no madressa where he lives. So the Women of 5-6 Muslim families conduct classes every week to teach the children Quran, basics of salah etc. :subh: its a relief for them.

[sudoku]

:salam:

@ Moulana Taliban saheb: I do agree that women should have contact with other women. :alhamd: I have seen my own mother, how much counseling she does back in Canada where it's hard to find good Islamic counsel.

However I cannot see taking a male shaykh as wrong as it's being made out to be seen. I mean, Ml Yunus Patel :rahma: had mureedahs. Mufti Ebrahim Desai answers questions of females and has female mureedahs. and many other Ulama as well. So are all these Ulama wrong?

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

Our women have the capability to become great Alimahs and great Shaikhahs. They should guide women in all fields whether it be Ilmi line or Tasawwuf line.

I have seen that women guide women better. There is no need for women to turn to Non-Mehram Shaikhs.

:

sorry forgot to mention regading tasawwuf
I strongly feel women can guide other women in islahi matters yes, but only upto a point. Myself and the women i know have (i think) set out sights a lot further than that..we aim high mawlana (only by the grace of Allah subhaanhu wata'ala) and theres nothing wrong with that surely. We request your dua' in the best of place at the best of time please.

[mercyofAllah]

We can definitely do without the bolds, underlines and colours!

edit: looks nice but does not imply nice!

Bismillahi
Yeah we should all learn to have some adhab when discussing and I see this as one of the main problems of this forum and shaitan can stir the emotions and cause negative feeling. The words should be given importance for it is command of Allah SWT.

And say to My slaves (i.e. the true believers of Islamic Monotheism) that they should (only) say those words that are the best. (Because) shaitan (Satan) verily, sows a state of conflict and disagreements among them. Surely, shaitan (Satan) is to man a plain enemy. Al Quran

Khair I hope this be considered and we all change our way of writing inshaaAllah. Let Allah SWT help us all. Amin
Let the thread go with smooth discussion iA.

[Taliban1]

Myself and the women i know have (i think) set out sights a lot further than that..we aim high mawlana (only by the grace of Allah subhaanhu wata'ala) and theres nothing wrong with that surely.

Please define the HIGH. I really want to understand this.


We request your dua' in the best of place at the best of time please.

Insha'Allah

[amr123]

Bismillahi
Yeah we should all learn to have some adhab when discussing and I see this as one of the main problems of this forum and shaitan can stir the emotions and cause negative feeling. The words should be given importance for it is command of Allah SWT.

And say to My slaves (i.e. the true believers of Islamic Monotheism) that they should (only) say those words that are the best. (Because) shaitan (Satan) verily, sows a state of conflict and disagreements among them. Surely, shaitan (Satan) is to man a plain enemy.

Khair I hope this be considered and we all change our way of writing inshaaAllah. Let Allah SWT help us all. Amin
Let the thread go with smooth discussion iA.

:insh:

[muminah]

Lets not get into a frenzy over Dr Farhat Hashmi and avoid the main issue here. The question is why can't women can't undergo islah under female shaykhas? Why is there a need to liase with non-mehram shuyook for islah? Are women not capable of offering islah?

[hmdsalahuddin]

Bismillahi
Assalamu alaikum sister
I think the main point of OP is that women should have islahi taluq with women and not with men as many have, be it contact through phone or email.
I think the OP is saying there should be more women shaikah available to women as men are available. Allahu alam

:ws:

This happens in my home.

My mother is neither an Alimaa nor a shaykha. But she has a passion to teach and guide other women. Even today she teaches around 8 children Quran, basics of islam, salah etc. in evening.

And she also makes a point to talk about deen and do islah with women in neighborhood and relatives. Because of this she receives call almost everyday from them when they need help in both deen and worldly help. It has benefited many of them.

There are many women like my mother. They are known only to Allah. May Allah reward all their noble efforts.

[ummitaalib]

Please define the HIGH. I really want to understand this.



we wish to traverse the path to its furthest

[SY1]

:ws: Respected Aapa,

I am asking a genuine question. Why do “Asian Salafi stay home Niqabees” don’t think that they need to rely on men for their Islaah?

They seem to manage and teach the basics amongst each other just fine. There is no "Salafi Girls Darul-ulooms" or a "Salafi Shaykh" to impart Islaah to women?

:jazak:

Generally my understanding is that once you take out the asian so its only 'Salafi stay home Niqabees'...

They are hardcore to the bone. They often have burnout at some point in life. Many male and female reverts who have become muslim through salafi channels have either left (there was a thread on IA ages back when i used to frequent that forum) or become disillusioned.

A moderate muslim brother cannot live with these hardcore women, can you imagine doing something wrong and getting an earful? you mushrik, you this and that... i read somewhere where a woman cut relations with her husband because of this salafi differences her sheikh was teaching her.

Maulana Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi said that if i could have give khilafat to my daughter i would have... from there its understood that women are not allowed to be sheikh'as or whatever you call them?

[amr123]

Alhamdulillah, its good to hear the mothers of many SF members are involved in teaching deen and helping women of the community. I guess we need more in our communities.

[mercyofAllah]

:ws:

This happens in my home.

My mother is neither an Alimaa nor a shaykha. But she has a passion to teach and guide other women. Even today she teaches around 8 children Quran, basics of islam, salah etc. in evening.

And she also makes a point to talk about deen and do islah with women in neighborhood and relatives. Because of this she receives call almost everyday from them when they need help in both deen and worldly help. It has benefited many of them.

There are many women like my mother. They are known only to Allah. May Allah reward all their noble efforts.
Bismillah
Yes I thought so that there should be more women like this but they are known only to their circles I think. Somehow it is taught that only men can guide the muslimahs and so women only look for men shuyook for islah and may be women shaikah go unnoticed. Not all of us know woman like your mom. Let Allah SWT bless those like your mom and those are in contact with them. Amin

[muminah]

The adherance to purdah and segregation from men is much greater amongst practising Deobandi sisters than Salafi or Barelwi sisters. I don't say this to demean them but only to praise the level of pardah amongst Deobandi sisters.

Not entirely true. The salafis (we can't really generalise - there are many types of salafis) that do wear niqab are extremely strict. Haven't you seen them in East London? Long somali burqas, gloves and the full works. Barelwis are a different story entirely.


This will mean there are less global and national personalities amongst them but does not mean they don't get things done in their communities. Salafis sisters do not have any national-wide organisation neither, so using them as an example does not work.

Not true. Salafis sisters have many nation wide muslim organisations. For example, sisters magazine, hhugs, workingmuslim etc etc.


There is so much for Deobandi women besides TJ halaqah. I don't understand what more is required. There are madaaris, makaatib, courses, events, days out, fun days, classes, seminars, counselling services etc,etc for women all over the country. What is lacking?

Again, this maybe the case in Bradford but it certainly isn't the case around the country. Name me one muslim counselling service run by deobandis?

[SY1]

we wish to traverse the path to its furthest

There is a woman in Leicester who is on another level... you think these male sufis are exploring different heights, then this woman is possibly beyond them.

No difficult maamoolaat, but i heard from my mother who was talking to her in the next room that when she came or comes to Masjid e Nabawi Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam certain ladies look after her.

When she went for Salam after having a dream where the Prophet Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam told her to come to Medina the veils lifted for her, she got a glimpse all the way in and saw his Majesty, my master Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam.

If you dont hear about them dont be fooled into thinking they dont exist.

An old lady used to teach girls Quran in Thanabhovan, one night Hadhrat Fatima R.A came in her dream and said look after my daughter. This girl had Fatimi bloodline. Two lessons learned here, the power of Fatimi blood that Hadhrat Fatima is looking after her own, and secondly it was a lady who had the dream. This was related by Maulana Thanvi and from him Sheikh Yunus.

There is a thread on here of an arabic youtube video where the mother reads endless Durood on the Prophet Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam and she see's him each night in her dreams.

[Taliban1]

we wish to traverse the path to its furthest

Which path and whats the furthest?

Please explain, I really want to understand it. You can make a new thread also.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?74147-Hazrat-Hakeem-Mahmood-Ajmeri-(db)-Tour-to-Sri-Lanka&p=639463&viewfull=1#post639463

Read this.

[Taliban1]

There is a woman in Leicester who is on another level... you think these male sufis are exploring different heights, then this woman is possibly beyond them.

No difficult maamoolaat, but i heard from my mother who was talking to her in the next room that when she came or comes to Masjid e Nabawi Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam certain ladies look after her.

When she went for Salam after having a dream where the Prophet Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam told her to come to Medina the veils lifted for her, she got a glimpse all the way in and saw his Majesty, my master Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam.

If you dont hear about them dont be fooled into thinking they dont exist.

An old lady used to teach girls Quran in Thanabhovan, one night Hadhrat Fatima R.A came in her dream and said look after my daughter. This girl had Fatimi bloodline. Two lessons learned here, the power of Fatimi blood that Hadhrat Fatima is looking after her own, and secondly it was a lady who had the dream. This was related by Maulana Thanvi and from him Sheikh Yunus.

There is a thread on here of an arabic youtube video where the mother reads endless Durood on the Prophet Sallalahu Alayhi Wassalam and she see's him each night in her dreams.

You are right!

Shaikh I don't need to go far. My mother saw Rasool Allah :saw: while awake! My mother spends all her nights crying in dua. She's always crying in Duas. And she's not bayt to any Shaikh nor in contact with any Shaikh.

:alhamd:

:mash:

[muminah]

:salam:

As usual I am going to come across harsh but I don’t really care.

I know plenty of “Asian Salafi Sisters in Niqab” which I believe represents the same demographics as you three and most Deobandi women

They don’t interact with men.
They have Haya.
They stay at homes.
They don’t pursue a Career.
They look after husbands and children.

BUT in their communities they organise Halaqahs, they run forums, they run blogs, they have sites, they organise events all with full (and in fact) MUCH BETTER SEGREGATION!

I'd have to agree with you here. The reason is partly cultural and partly a deobandi problem. Deobandi women are taught they are not as intelligent or capable as their male counterparts (posts on this thread are enough of evidence to prove that). This fits in very well into the indo-pak culture where men are always the dominant ones and want to rule their women. This is the real underlying problem as to why many Muslim deobandi women (who are perfectly capable of doing community work) are not performing as well as their counterparts when it comes to engaging with society and contributing to it in a positive manner.

In the UK, majority of the aalimas from bradford and other places are baya'ah with Hadhrat Ml Yusuf Motala, and most have never been in touch with him. So don't worry ;). Having said, is there a point being bay'ah with someone without islah?

[ImamGhazzaali]

:salam:

Founded:
Founded in 2009 (formerly MH Islamic Courses)

Location:
London, UK

About:
al-Muhsinaat - Muslimahs learning to live a life of excellence

Description:

The Arabic word ihsan is derived from the husn meaning beautiful. Ihsan is used to define a state whereby one is so aware of the presence of Allah in their life that they strive for excellence in all matters. A muhsin is a male who adopts this beautiful character trait and a muhsina is the feminine form. Hence, our organisation is called al-Muhsinaat – the women who strive for excellence - as we want all of our sisters to live a life of excellence, a life whereby we can all attain the eternal pleasure of Allah, the Most High.

We provide a range of services to sisters including: Arabic classes, Tajwid classes, intensive courses on character building, a Q & A service, online classes and much more.

Our main objective is delivering the teachings of Islam to our Muslim sisters in a practical, enjoyable and excellent manner.

“And do good. Of course, Allah loves those who do good.” (Al-Baqarah V195)

Teacher:
Ustadha Bint Ahmad

Email :
mhislamiccourses@gmail.com

Website:
http://www.al-muhsinaat.org
-

More famous Shaykhah:

Ustaadhah A'ishah Bewley:
http://bewley.virtualave.net/

Ustadhah Zaynab Ansari:
http://www.sunnipath.com/about/ustadhazaynabansari.aspx
http://seekersguidance.org/blog/tag/ustadha-zaynab-ansari/

Ustadha Noura Shamma:
http://qibla.com//about/instructor/4039/Ustadha-Noura-Shamma

Before any one starts to badmouth the above Asaatidhah and Organizations, take hold of this tadhkirah:

Ibn al-Qayyim Al-Jawziyyah:

“As long as the tongue is occupied in dhikr, it will be safe from unbecoming speech and lies, because it never keeps quiet. Alike it is with the heart, if it is not occupied in love of Allah then it will love a creature.”
[al-Wabil as-Sayyib min al-Kalim at-Tayyib]

‘Umar :anhu: : visited Abu Bakr :anhu: while he was pulling his tongue, so ‘Umar asked, “What is this, may Allah Forgive you?” Abu Bakr replied, “This has put me to ruin.”
[Imam Malik in Al-Muwatta (56/12, 56/10) - Muslim (4/6525) - Abu Dawud (3/4856)]

Last but not the least, there are non-famous Asaatidhah as well.

:jazak:
:ws:

I agree:


There is so much for Deobandi women besides TJ halaqah. I don't understand what more is required. There are madaaris, makaatib, courses, events, days out, fun days, classes, seminars, counselling services etc,etc for women all over the country. What is lacking? I genuinely don't understand. In fact, if the number of these events are compared to the relative population, I think there is more in the UK for women than in India, Pakistan, South Africa, America, Canada and the Arab lands. A Muslim woman in the UK living in a Muslim community would have a choice of places to go to to learn Islam without having to travel very far at all. What exactly are we lacking?

[muminah]

Why do women not receive khilafah (in tasawwuf)? Is it forbidden in Islam?

[muminah]

:salam:

Founded:
Founded in 2009 (formerly MH Islamic Courses)

Location:
London, UK

About:
al-Muhsinaat - Muslimahs learning to live a life of excellence

Description:

The Arabic word ihsan is derived from the husn meaning beautiful. Ihsan is used to define a state whereby one is so aware of the presence of Allah in their life that they strive for excellence in all matters. A muhsin is a male who adopts this beautiful character trait and a muhsina is the feminine form. Hence, our organisation is called al-Muhsinaat – the women who strive for excellence - as we want all of our sisters to live a life of excellence, a life whereby we can all attain the eternal pleasure of Allah, the Most High.

We provide a range of services to sisters including: Arabic classes, Tajwid classes, intensive courses on character building, a Q & A service, online classes and much more.

Our main objective is delivering the teachings of Islam to our Muslim sisters in a practical, enjoyable and excellent manner.

“And do good. Of course, Allah loves those who do good.” (Al-Baqarah V195)

Teacher:
Ustadha Bint Ahmad



Ustadha Bint Ahmad is an exception mashaAllah. She is a good example for others to follow.

[suleimanibnsalim]

Why do women not receive khilafah (in tasawwuf)? Is it forbidden in Islam?

In another comment of yours, you alluded to the above being the case due to women of the subcontinent being taught they are inferior. I feel this is not entirely true, sayyidati, simply due women not being given khilafah anywhere at all, as far as I know. Are you aware of a historical precedent? I think you'll find the majority of scholarly women served the muslims by focussing primarily on the manqulat like collecting and narrating ahadith and sirah, as opposed to processing the information in a way that fuqaha' would, or serving the community in a way a sufi shaykh would.

As I've stated previously on this thread, according to what I've heard from (non-subcontinental, Arab-trained, sufi) shaykhs, analogy is often drawn between the social roles of a prophet and of a sufi shaykh: just as prophets were never females (according to the majority) or rarely females (according to some), the same applies for sufi shaykhs. This has a basis in the hadith-proof of the final stage of the nafs, that of kamal: كمل من الرجال كثير ولم يكمل من النساء إلا أربع

I hope I havn't come accross as offensive as I did last time. 'Afwan minki, and I ask you all to have husn adh-dhann about my posts :) I'd also like to take this as an oppurtunity to appologize to UmHasan -- if she's reading this -- as I came accross as attacking her last time. 'Afwan minkum jami'an.

was-salam

[abuhajira]

In another comment of yours, you alluded to the above being the case due to women of the subcontinent being taught they are inferior. I feel this is not entirely true, sayyidati, simply due women not being given khilafah anywhere at all, as far as I know. Are you aware of a historical precedent? I think you'll find the majority of scholarly women served the muslims by focussing primarily on the manqulat like collecting and narrating ahadith and sirah, as opposed to processing the information in a way that fuqaha' would, or serving the community in a way a sufi shaykh would.

As I've stated previously on this thread, according to what I've heard from (non-subcontinental, Arab-trained, sufi) shaykhs, analogy is often drawn between the social roles of a prophet and of a sufi shaykh: just as prophets were never females (according to the majority) or rarely females (according to some), the same applies for sufi shaykhs. This has a basis in the hadith-proof of the final stage of the nafs, that of kamal: كمل من الرجال كثير ولم يكمل من النساء إلا أربع

I hope I havn't come accross as offensive as I did last time. 'Afwan minki, and I ask you all to have husn adh-dhann about my posts :) I'd also like to take this as an oppurtunity to appologize to UmHasan -- if she's reading this -- as I came accross as attacking her last time. 'Afwan minkum jami'an.

was-salam

:salam:

Jazak Allah for the explanation..

:ws:

[Taliban1]

:salam:

@ Moulana Taliban saheb: I do agree that women should have contact with other women. :alhamd: I have seen my own mother, how much counseling she does back in Canada where it's hard to find good Islamic counsel.

:ws:

:mash:


However I cannot see taking a male shaykh as wrong as it's being made out to be seen. I mean, Ml Yunus Patel :rahma: had mureedahs. Mufti Ebrahim Desai answers questions of females and has female mureedahs. and many other Ulama as well. So are all these Ulama wrong?

Sorry, We are talking about an issue here based on facts. Please refrain from asking direct Questions like the above. It will create problems.

:jazak:

[ImamGhazzaali]

my own mother, how much counseling she does back in Canada where it's hard to find good Islamic counsel.
Can you expand on that?

:jazak: sister.

[Taliban1]

This has a basis in the hadith-proof of the final stage of the nafs, that of kamal: كمل من الرجال كثير ولم يكمل من النساء إلا أربع

was-salam

I have two questions:

1) This hadith refers to the past. It doesn't say that no woman can become a Kamilah
2) Are the Shuyookhs present today Kamil?

:jazak:

[Taliban1]

we wish to traverse the path to its furthest


Which path and whats the furthest?

Please explain, I really want to understand it. You can make a new thread also.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?74147-Hazrat-Hakeem-Mahmood-Ajmeri-(db)-Tour-to-Sri-Lanka&p=639463&viewfull=1#post639463

Read this.

Respected Aunty,

I am waiting and will keep on waiting for your answer.

Answer these questions too:

1) How do you plan on traversing the path without the Suhbat of the Shaikh.
2) How can you traverse it on phone/email contact with Shaikh.

:jazak:

[sudoku]

Sorry, We are talking about an issue here based on facts. Please refrain from asking direct Questions like the above. It will create problems.

:jazak: I deleted what I wrote. I don't like being involved in heavy threads. Not good for nafs.

@ Imam Ghazaali: She helps sisters in marital problems, reverts with nor family, teenage girls with family problems, etc.

[ummitaalib]

.

If you dont hear about them dont be fooled into thinking they dont exist.

.

assalaamu 'alaykum
i did not say they did not exist...they do...i've met one alhamdulillah

[ImamGhazzaali]

@ Imam Ghazaali: She helps sisters in marital problems, reverts with nor family, teenage girls with family problems, etc.

Is it specific to a province/city in Canada?
any link etc,.

[sudoku]

:salam:

It's not something she advertises or does as a business, basically it's just simple Ikraamul Muslimeen. :alhamd: Unfortunately I have not been able to learn all I could on that subject from her.

[UmHasan]

I agree with much that Ml. Taliban is saying on this thread. Women do listen to women better and understand their situations differently so in some matters it is best for women to go to women. But some of our more experienced shuyookh do understand womens matters well too and their advice is golden at times. Reading through some of Hadhrat Thanwi’s writing on women, I am amazed at how precisely he understood a woman’s mind, heart, habits and concerns. Every time I read a few pages I think he has some issues absolutely spot on. But in the end, we women are tabi' of men and we look to the menfolk for guidance in matters and thats not about to change too quickly. I don't think its due to an inferiority complex in Asians at all. I think its quite nice. It doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves.

@ Brother sulemanibnsalim, :jazak: please accept my apologies too.


Not entirely true. The salafis (we can't really generalise - there are many types of salafis) that do wear niqab are extremely strict. Haven't you seen them in East London? Long somali burqas, gloves and the full works. Barelwis are a different story entirely.



:mash: It is good to hear about the Somali sisters. May Allah increase their modesty and concealment. I still think pardah is more prevalent amongst the Deobandi sisters but this is not what the topic is about and we’ll discuss it later. Besides, its not a competition and focusing on comparison is not healthy.




Not true. Salafis sisters have many nation wide muslim organisations. For example, sisters magazine, hhugs, workingmuslim etc etc.


These are hardly revolutionary organisations. They offer their services nationwide but they’re not exactly national, renowned and highly effective. The fact that I had to google one of them attests to that. If we’re looking at sisters magazine, then its not the first national magazine for Muslim women, written by Muslim women. ‘My Sister’ by students of Jamia, Bradford was founded almost 20 years ago. The efforts of Deobandi organisations are often overlooked due to their simplicity. The simplicity of a door to door gasht, a speech at the mimbar, a black and white publication, a student and teacher sitting on the floor with a book on a wooden bench may not be fancy and modern but it’s the effect that counts. I’m all for modernisation but in my heart, I sometimes feel Islam is a simple religion and simple methods are most effective.



Again, this maybe the case in Bradford but it certainly isn't the case around the country.

If you read my posts again, I made a distinction by saying this is available in Muslim dominated areas. You don't live in a Muslim populated area so there's not going to be much available in your area. There are probably not even many masaajid there. You may have to travel a bit, but its not too diffcult to find things if you give that little sacrifice. Everyone travels t oshop, eat out, go to work, meet friends so jumping into a car to drive toa neighbouring area to go to a class is not too much too difficult. We have sisters who come to our classes from as far as Sheffield, Dewsbury, Huddersfield, Leeds and even a sister who came for three years all the way from Manchester. Not everything will be available on your doorstep.




Name me one muslim counselling service run by deobandis?

There was one advertised here on SF a while ago; I can’t remember the name. I remember looking at their website and admiring its professionalism.

What I think you’ve missed is all the thousands of Deobandi women up and down the country who counsel, advise and listen to sisters. They don’t have a formal organisation, are not paid for their services, have no funding and no set hours. They make their time and energy available to strangers who come to them at their times of despair. Not every effort has to be run by organised bodies and companies for it to be recognised. One of the characteristics of successful Islamic dawah is that it is kept affordable with minimal overheads and formalities. That might translate to some as pauper services run by the poor for the poor but that whom Islam starts and begins with. Yes, as time goes by some Islamic organisations are able to offer more high tech services and have the funds to do that but the efforts of individuals who work in the community should not be undermined and are a force to be reckoned with.

Lastly, your comment about the mureedahs of Maulana Yusuf Motala are not that accurate. I know quite a few of my friends who have islahi ta’aluq with him and it is up to the individual to keep up the contact not the shaykh to go round asking about her. I myself texted him (through my husband) just two days ago and received a reassuring reply within minutes. It is not difficult for a mureedah to send messages through mahrams, letters, telephone conversations, listening to bayans going to majaalis where there is provision for women etc. An islahi ta’aluq via bayt is much more than just sending and receiving replies to queries. There are many of the more senior mashaikh such as Shaykh Zulfiqar, Hakeem Akhtar etc who have many mureedahs who benefit from them without every ringing or emailing their shaykh.

[Taliban1]

:salam:

سبحان الله

A brother just told me that there's one big Shaikh. All his Mureedahs go through his wife to him. All the matters of the mureedahs are dealt by the wife. No direct contact between the Shaikh and the Mureedahs.

[True Life]

:ws:
سبحان الله

A brother just told me that there's one big Shaikh. All his Mureedahs go through his wife to him. All the matters of the mureedahs are dealt by the wife. No direct contact between the Shaikh and the Mureedahs.Wow, why did we never think about it this way? Finding a mahram for the Shaykh instead of the mureedah. Masha'Allah.

[Taliban1]

:ws:Wow, why did we never think about it this way? Finding a mahram for the Shaykh instead of the mureedah. Masha'Allah.

:salam:

You mean a second Mehram :P

[ImamGhazzaali]

:salam:

It's not something she advertises or does as a business, basically it's just simple Ikraamul Muslimeen. :alhamd: Unfortunately I have not been able to learn all I could on that subject from her.

That's good to hear as well. Also, do you know about sister Fadila of AskImam.org ? Sa7?

[Aram]

are there even many women who are involved in tasawwuf?
i only know of the sisters on this forum, apart from that i know a couple of aalimahs and none of them are involved in tasawwuf or have a shaykh in UK

[daywalk3r]

I'd have to agree with you here. The reason is partly cultural and partly a deobandi problem. Deobandi women are taught they are not as intelligent or capable as their male counterparts (posts on this thread are enough of evidence to prove that). This fits in very well into the indo-pak culture where men are always the dominant ones and want to rule their women. This is the real underlying problem as to why many Muslim deobandi women (who are perfectly capable of doing community work) are not performing as well as their counterparts when it comes to engaging with society and contributing to it in a positive manner.


bullseye

[suleimanibnsalim]

I have two questions:

1) This hadith refers to the past. It doesn't say that no woman can become a Kamilah
2) Are the Shuyookhs present today Kamil?

:jazak:

1) The evidence is by no means qat'i, and I would never deny that. It merely alludes to the sunnah of Allah, which -- in my humble opinion, and that of many, if not most sufi scholars -- will not change so drastically that women should begin to recieve khilafah in tasawwuf. This is not to say that women do not reach the highest stages of wilayah -- this is certainly not what I'm getting at; rather, females -- due to their societal roles -- will not reach a stage whereby they can guide others in the capacity of a famous murshid who people turn to for guidance. This is for the same reason, as I find myself repeating time and time again, that females were not chosen as prophets.

That is not to say that females, especially those who have reached the pinacle of wilayah, cannot guide those in their closer circles, especially women folk. Indeed, this has been occuring in the most conservative of societies, such as in Hadramawt, Yemen. Hubabah Safiyyah al-'Attasiyyah (rahimaha Llahu wa radhiya 'anha) was one such example. She was only discovered late in her life (80+), via a scholar's dream. She always stayed in her house, but it was by the grace of Allah that her wilayah became known amongst people, and they would come to her male children hoping for her duas. However, despite reaching such levels, she did not act in the capacity of a murshid, and remained secluded.

I think I've made my point, and it's becoming tiresome repeating it. :)

2) Well at least that's the hope! That's the purpose of making bay'ah in the first place -- to become connected to a perfect inheritor of the messenger who was al-insan al-kamil, salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam, and this is explicitly stated in Imam al-Ghazali's ayyuha 'l-walad.

I feel your objections arise from the contact between ghayr-maharim; that being the case, there are a number of avenues to get round this issue, such as going through the shaykh's wife with regards to private queries, and otherwise only interacting with the shaykh in public. This is common, in fact I do not know of a shaykh in tasawwuf who does not do this. Afterall, embodying the shari'ah is the goal of the method (the tariqah), and if these rules are not being adhered to, then one must question whether it is worth having contact with such a shaykh.

For this reason, I believe that this topic about females becoming khulafa' of sufi shaykhs is a non-issue, and is irrelevant to what Colonel is talking about with regards to female teachers (which is certainly a need, and I totally agree!). Conflating the two issues serves no issue apart from clouding the discussion.

was-salam

[suleimanibnsalim]

I'd have to agree with you here. The reason is partly cultural and partly a deobandi problem. Deobandi women are taught they are not as intelligent or capable as their male counterparts (posts on this thread are enough of evidence to prove that). This fits in very well into the indo-pak culture where men are always the dominant ones and want to rule their women. This is the real underlying problem as to why many Muslim deobandi women (who are perfectly capable of doing community work) are not performing as well as their counterparts when it comes to engaging with society and contributing to it in a positive manner.

This is a gross over-simplification, with a feminist undertone making me rather uncomfortable, in the context of the discussion on sufi shaykhs and the female gender. If the comment was made generally, though, I sympathise and agree. As (I hope) I've shown, the fact that females are not sufi shaykhs, in no way is as a result of being "taught they are not as intelligent" as males. Rather, males are more capable/appropriate in certain areas and walks of life (prophethood, public irshad, leadership of state), and females are more capable/apppropriate in others (motherhood, tarbiyah of people's children, counselling females) and in other areas, both genders are equally capable/appropriate. It is useless trying to make both genders identical, when clearly this is far from the reality, and more importantly, far from what the religion has sanctioned.

was-salam

[abuhajira]

1) The evidence is by no means qat'i, and I would never deny that. It merely alludes to the sunnah of Allah, which -- in my humble opinion, and that of many, if not most sufi scholars -- will not change so drastically that women should begin to recieve khilafah in tasawwuf. This is not to say that women do not reach the highest stages of wilayah -- this is certainly not what I'm getting at; rather, females -- due to their societal roles -- will not reach a stage whereby they can guide others in the capacity of a famous murshid who people turn to for guidance. This is for the same reason, as I find myself repeating time and time again, that females were not chosen as prophets.

That is not to say that females, especially those who have reached the pinacle of wilayah, cannot guide those in their closer circles, especially women folk. Indeed, this has been occuring in the most conservative of societies, such as in Hadramawt, Yemen. Hubabah Safiyyah al-'Attasiyyah (rahimaha Llahu wa radhiya 'anha) was one such example. She was only discovered late in her life (80+), via a scholar's dream. She always stayed in her house, but it was by the grace of Allah that her wilayah became known amongst people, and they would come to her male children hoping for her duas. However, despite reaching such levels, she did not act in the capacity of a murshid, and remained secluded.

I think I've made my point, and it's becoming tiresome repeating it. :)

:salam:

No brother, any positive information that you have learned, needs to be oft repeated. We get too weighed down with the continuous bickering and negative criticism over and over again, that the situation just seems hopeless.

We need the positive reinforcement to do good, act good, promote good and diminish the negatives by being overpowered by excessive good. Experience shows that Amr bil Ma'ruf works best when conducted by the general masses and Nahi Anil Munkar works best when only those who are authorized to do it carry it out. We lose this focus and all our intentions /our motives, how pure they may be, remain fruitless inspite of the immense efforts.

I dont think there is a big issue in taking Islaah from women. How many read on the life of Rabia Al Basri r.a and take benefit from her. That is indeed islahi guidance. Yes the customry ijazah and bayah is not found, perhaps not because of incapability as you suggest rather because of other schematics.

As for the topic, I think it is a very good idea for a woman to have ta'luq with an elderly pious woman who can counsel her, guide her and teach her how to grow stronger both academically and spiritually. But that should not diminish the permissibility of someone seeking similar counsel of a qualified kamil male sheikh as long as the shar'i hudood are kept in tact.

:ws:

[Maripat]

:salam:

No brother, any positive information that you have learned, needs to be oft repeated. We get too weighed down with the continuous bickering and negative criticism over and over again, that the situation just seems hopeless.

We need the positive reinforcement to do good, act good, promote good and diminish the negatives by being overpowered by excessive good. Experience shows that Amr bil Ma'ruf works best when conducted by the general masses and Nahi Anil Munkar works best when only those who are authorized to do it carry it out. We lose this focus and all our intentions /our motives, how pure they may be, remain fruitless inspite of the immense efforts.

I dont think there is a big issue in taking Islaah from women. How many read on the life of Rabia Al Basri r.a and take benefit from her. That is indeed islahi guidance. Yes the customry ijazah and bayah is not found, perhaps not because of incapability as you suggest rather because of other schematics.

As for the topic, I think it is a very good idea for a woman to have ta'luq with an elderly pious woman who can counsel her, guide her and teach her how to grow stronger both academically and spiritually. But that should not diminish the permissibility of someone seeking similar counsel of a qualified kamil male sheikh as long as the shar'i hudood are kept in tact.

:ws:

:salam:
:jazak: Mufti Sahab. And :jazak: brother Suleman ibn salim, sister UmHasan and apa UmmiTaalib.
Wassalam

[sudoku]

That's good to hear as well. Also, do you know about sister Fadila of AskImam.org ? Sa7?

Yes I know sister Fadila, but not personally. My friend knows her very well though.

[ankaboot]

Assalamu Alaikum To All,

One of the things that I don't understand and that concerns me a lot is when learned people say "because of this personality or that so many people have come on the right path, or have changed their life styles. They have become better Muslimahs/Muslims" Astaghfirullah, It is Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala that Guides, even RasoolAllah Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam did not have the power to Guide someone, that is upto Allah, so please be careful Please.

Does wearing Burqa and Niqaab makes someone a better Muslimah??? yes it is important to dress modestly, but what about things that should go along with covering up??? like your voice?? I wonder if the brothers who think that Dr. Farhat Hashimi is doing great work sit and listen to her lectures that are available online to the whole World?? Do you think it is appropriate and according to Shariah???

There are hundreds of thousand of women who are doing great services to help Muslimahs as well as Non Muslimahs in many fields, Teaching Qur'aan, Islamic Ettiquets, Cooking, Housework, Counselling. spending time with Lonely Older ladies (Muslim as well as Non Muslims) sometimes just giving a shoulder for someone to lean on. etc. etc. .......... They are nither interested in Name or Fame, it is their desire to do these services for the sole pleasure of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala.

As for women having Male Shuyookh, what is the problem there??? they deal with them through their Mahrams and it is mainly for their Deeni (spiritual) Islaah not their personal needs.

As for girls learning from male teachers, these studies are done while observing full Parda, yes they could learn from female teachers too, if there were some available and had the standard that the male teachers (Ulama) had. Unfortunately there are not that many available and where there are some then the men put them down, a good example would be to look at our own Sunni forum??

Wassalamu Alaikum.

[sudoku]

Assalamu Alaikum To All,

As for girls learning from male teachers, these studies are done while observing full Parda, yes they could learn from female teachers too, if there were some available and had the standard that the male teachers (Ulama) had. Unfortunately there are not that many available and where there are some then the men put them down, a good example would be to look at our own Sunni forum??

Wassalamu Alaikum.
:ws:

A good example of this is my tafseer/tajweed class. The teacher's voice can only be heard on speaker, I have never seen him nor has he seen me or heard my voice. He gives his dars and the students take down their notes. Even for tajweed class, he reads a passage from the Qur'aan, explains each an every rule in that passage, and then does the du'aa for end of class. After that, the women from his family listen to each individual sister to make sure the rules are being applied.

[mercyofAllah]

:salam:

No brother, any positive information that you have learned, needs to be oft repeated. We get too weighed down with the continuous bickering and negative criticism over and over again, that the situation just seems hopeless.

We need the positive reinforcement to do good, act good, promote good and diminish the negatives by being overpowered by excessive good. Experience shows that Amr bil Ma'ruf works best when conducted by the general masses and Nahi Anil Munkar works best when only those who are authorized to do it carry it out. We lose this focus and all our intentions /our motives, how pure they may be, remain fruitless inspite of the immense efforts.

I dont think there is a big issue in taking Islaah from women. How many read on the life of Rabia Al Basri r.a and take benefit from her. That is indeed islahi guidance. Yes the customry ijazah and bayah is not found, perhaps not because of incapability as you suggest rather because of other schematics.

As for the topic, I think it is a very good idea for a woman to have ta'luq with an elderly pious woman who can counsel her, guide her and teach her how to grow stronger both academically and spiritually. But that should not diminish the permissibility of someone seeking similar counsel of a qualified kamil male sheikh as long as the shar'i hudood are kept in tact.

:ws:
Bismillah
maashaaAllah this seems to be a moderate post well balanced on this topic maashaaAllah
jazaakAllahu khayraa

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

:salam:

As for the bold, yes there are, in Pakistan I had a second cousin who studied in one. And AlHuda has hostels where girls stay and study.

Even if I were to give my reasoning, they would most probably be ripped apart by yourself or Moulana Taliban. So I think it's best I follow my late shaykh's advice and just keep out of this thread. Besides, there are enough Ulama (non UK/PK) to whom these questions can be asked.

I think that is best.
There are some members of the forum,who :mash: are extremely talented and gifted when it comes to analysing the faults of deobandi's :alhamd: They are :mash: very well qualified also,and are very rational and open-minded :alhamd: They are experts on multiple topics and they don't fear speaking the truth even if it means breaking with deobandi tradition,which unfortunately has many pitfalls i.e. is extremely culturally dependant,very narrow framework,not accomodating,not relevant to the times and is dying out e.t.c. :alhamd: they have also suggested,directly or indirectly a way forward with solutions like,encouraging woman to go to the masjid,encouraging woman to go for eid salah to the eid ghah,encouraging woman to go to the graveyard,encouraging shuyookh to give khilafah to shaikhah's,encouraging the backward deo molvis to adopt the more in touch setup of the likes of al-kauthar and al maghrib,encouraging girls to attend institutes like al huda,encouraging the backward deo's to adopt modern media such as video and television to ensure they don't become irrelevant,encouraging the backward deobandi molvi to adoptb the in touch and admirable da'wah methods of the very,:mash: active salafis who are having a very positive impact:alhamd:,lest they become irrelevant deo's should forsake urdu in their instituitions as it is tantamount to racism e.t.c,e.t.c.,e.t.c... :alhamd: the bro's have done excellent research and they have a very deep in-sight and it would bode well for the deo masses to adopt these measures if they wish not to dwindle into oblivian and become extinct.

May Allah Forgive Guide and Protect us all.Aameen.

was salam

[Muslimah.]

Ustadha Bint Ahmad is an exception mashaAllah. She is a good example for others to follow.

Assalamu alaykum,

I completely agree with muminah. I have attended most of the al-Muhsinat courses taught by Ustadha Bint Ahmad and she is by far the best example (who I have come across amongst the deobandi female ulama of today) for us sisters to follow. Her courses are like no other! Truly life changing for myself and generally this view is held by all others who attend. She targets all the issues prevalent in the sisters community of today and helps us all practically change the way we live our lives. Ustadhas unique approach and interactivity within the courses really helps each and every one of us gain the maximum benefit.

Recently, just the other week, she did a course titled ‘The ideal Muslimah’ which focused on helping us sisters become ideal in all fields of life. Although I could only go to one day of this summer course there were 150 sisters all from different walks of life who also felt the need to change in character. These included sisters who had attended the previous courses as well as many new faces. I can honestly say that the sisters including myself really felt that spiritual change and motivation as well as acquired practical implementations to lead a better life, One that is solely for the pleasure of Allah. (A key aspect ustadha emphasises on)

As far as I am aware ustadha is part of a tariq in tasawwuf as it can be clearly seen from the courses. She did another course last summer titled ‘The wonders of the heart’ of which the main focus was purifying the heart and building ones character to attain that level of ihsan in our lives. Something Ustadha always emphasises on. SubhanAllah the course was an amazing experience truly changed my perspective of life. Many of the sisters were brought to tears by the end of the week and really felt the practical change in their lives over the course of the week and hoped to continue this into their day to day lives.

I agree with mu’minah, many Deobandi Alimahs often feel they are not as intelligent as their sheikhs and this is apparent when they publicly speak. But this is not the case with Ustadha bint Ahmad’s courses. Her standards are extremely high in terms of the high level of English she delivers the courses in and she always uses relevant day to day examples for us sisters to relate to. So there are a few sisters who can do islah of other women (such as the likes of Ustadha bint Ahmad), but most people are just unaware.

Women can do islah (as proven by living examples). But due to there not being enough strong sheikhas sisters resort to sheikhs. So sisters need to be shown who the minority sheikhas are so they can follow in their footsteps.

[daywalk3r]

Assalamu alaykum,

I completely agree with muminah. I have attended most of the al-Muhsinat courses taught by Ustadha Bint Ahmad and she is by far the best example (who I have come across amongst the deobandi female ulama of today) for us sisters to follow. Her courses are like no other! Truly life changing for myself and generally this view is held by all others who attend. She targets all the issues prevalent in the sisters community of today and helps us all practically change the way we live our lives. Ustadhas unique approach and interactivity within the courses really helps each and every one of us gain the maximum benefit.

Recently, just the other week, she did a course titled ‘The ideal Muslimah’ which focused on helping us sisters become ideal in all fields of life. Although I could only go to one day of this summer course there were 150 sisters all from different walks of life who also felt the need to change in character. These included sisters who had attended the previous courses as well as many new faces. I can honestly say that the sisters including myself really felt that spiritual change and motivation as well as acquired practical implementations to lead a better life, One that is solely for the pleasure of Allah. (A key aspect ustadha emphasises on)

As far as I am aware ustadha is part of a tariq in tasawwuf as it can be clearly seen from the courses. She did another course last summer titled ‘The wonders of the heart’ of which the main focus was purifying the heart and building ones character to attain that level of ihsan in our lives. Something Ustadha always emphasises on. SubhanAllah the course was an amazing experience truly changed my perspective of life. Many of the sisters were brought to tears by the end of the week and really felt the practical change in their lives over the course of the week and hoped to continue this into their day to day lives.

I agree with mu’minah, many Deobandi Alimahs often feel they are not as intelligent as their sheikhs and this is apparent when they publicly speak. But this is not the case with Ustadha bint Ahmad’s courses. Her standards are extremely high in terms of the high level of English she delivers the courses in and she always uses relevant day to day examples for us sisters to relate to. So there are a few sisters who can do islah of other women (such as the likes of Ustadha bint Ahmad), but most people are just unaware.

Women can do islah (as proven by living examples). But due to there not being enough strong sheikhas sisters resort to sheikhs. So sisters need to be shown who the minority sheikhas are so they can follow in their footsteps.

That fact is that for Deo aalimahs there'll always be this glass ceiling for them that they'll hardly ever be able to fully break. Many are also moulded at the early stage that the ‘glass ceiling’ (as in the things they cant do or even aspire to do) is something they cant ever break because they are 'weak', 'unworthy' or in some case they are a cause of 'fitna' if ever they'll try to break it (i.e. by being proactive in ANY way in the wider community be it via deeni talks/classes/seminars etc of even local social programmes/events contributing positively to the local and wider community)....yes there are exceptions here and there but these are very much just that - exemptions

[ummitaalib]

Assalamu alaykum,

I agree with mu’minah, many Deobandi Alimahs often feel they are not as intelligent as their sheikhs and this is apparent when they publicly speak. .

Wa'alaykumus salaam
I cannot agree with both your and sis mu'minah's comment..Alhamdulillah i have contact with many 'aalimahs and sisters in general and myself included, we do not feel this way! Alhamdulillah myself and women I know have taken full advantage of all which is avaliable to us in terms of seeking knowledge and no one has made us feel we are not intelligent enough. We have chosen our male Shaykhs (amongst my family and friends we have chosen many different mashaikh) simple because they have the strongest effect on us and listening to their talks and contacting them regarding our rectification have changed our lives totally..Alhamdulillah!

@brother matbhooh ...aameen. Jazakallaah!

[mh16388]

their preachings include women leading men in prayers ..
she has her own sweet way to decieve..



assalamualaikum
i wish to give some evidence that may negate the above point. one of madam farhat hashmi's close aids at al-huda, whose name i will not disclose here, is part of our extended family. she has travelled with her and she, when asked by us, categorically stated that farhat hashmi never led any women in prayer. this is a false propoganda.
someone who has travelled and spent time with a person counts as a witness of high merit as they generally know all that you do.
the common opinion among her supporters is that the pakistani men cannot stand a woman teaching others. and a non-deobandi woman. Allahualam.
im sorry if this is off-topic but i wish to clear her name.as to other allegations about her i have no idea.

[Taliban1]

:salam:

I dont think there is a big issue in taking Islaah from women. How many read on the life of Rabia Al Basri r.a and take benefit from her. That is indeed islahi guidance. Yes the customry ijazah and bayah is not found, perhaps not because of incapability as you suggest rather because of other schematics.

:ws:

:ws:

Very well said.

I was about to say the same thing about Shaikhah Rabia Al Basriyyah (RA)! Hazrat Hakeem ul Ummah's malfoozat are full of her Stories.

That's my whole point. Women should come forward and guide women cause not every woman is comfortable with Male Shuyookh and since these are times of Fitnahs, we need more women.

Simple as that. No need to fight and make it a Deobandi vs Salafi thread. No need to post fatwas against Farhat Hashmi sahiba. That is not the discussion here.

http://islamgreatreligion.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/jazakallah.gif

:jazak:

P.S: Aunty Ummitalib, I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions.

[Taliban1]

Wa'alaykumus salaam
I cannot agree with both your and sis mu'minah's comment..Alhamdulillah i have contact with many 'aalimahs and sisters in general and myself included, we do not feel this way!


:salam:

Khala,

It's not about how you feel and just saying it doesn't do much.

MAKE THEM FEEL THE SAME WAY YOU FEEL!!!

This is the purpose of this thread.

When I hear both the above mentioned sisters say what you said, I'll say Alhamdulillah...

[Maripat]

Assalamu alaykum,

I agree with mu’minah, many Deobandi Alimahs often feel they are not as intelligent as their sheikhs and this is apparent when they publicly speak. But this is not the case with Ustadha bint Ahmad’s courses. Her standards are extremely high in terms of the high level of English she delivers the courses in and she always uses relevant day to day examples for us sisters to relate to. So there are a few sisters who can do islah of other women (such as the likes of Ustadha bint Ahmad), but most people are just unaware.

Women can do islah (as proven by living examples). But due to there not being enough strong sheikhas sisters resort to sheikhs. So sisters need to be shown who the minority sheikhas are so they can follow in their footsteps.
:ws:
Are we, by the way, talking about faminism? Just an academic query.
Wassalam

[*Bubbles*]

But in the end, we women are tabi' of men and we look to the menfolk for guidance in matters and thats not about to change too quickly. I don't think its due to an inferiority complex in Asians at all. I think its quite nice. It doesn't mean we can't think for ourselves.

But why ?

This is not an attack on you sister, I'm just genuinely curious ...since when did women become tabi' of men ?

Muslim women of the yesteryears not only taught & guided other women , but also their husbands . So, why cannot knowledgable women today guide other women ?

There are so many issues in our societies that need to be addressed but are brushed under the carpet because women don't know where to turn to. Many times, they're forced to simply shut up & put up.

On one extreme, we have all those modern Islamic feminists re-interpreting Islamic laws completely and on the other, we have women who can help totally shying off from taking any major, active Islamic role in the community...

[Muslimah.]

Many Alimahs are good nice sisters but as teachers they do not have an ability (with exceptions of a few sisters like Ustadha bint Ahmad and Ustadha umm Huzayfah). The reason is as students the Alimahs don't have a strong basis like the Alims do.
So the answer to can women have their islah done through women? Of course! And there are sisters currently doing it and doing it exceptionally well.
But, for those sisters who have no access to the likes of these women, they resort to sheikhs.
What there needs to be now is more sisters who can enter this and be of assistance because by nature sisters feel more connected and touched by sisters.
We are facing the same challenges and it's nice to speak to a woman who knows how it is then advises rather than a man, as often they don't know how it is! Not to mean we can't turn to sheikhs, but most of the sisters I know if they had the choice would turn to a woman first choice without giving it a second thought.

[ummitaalib]

P.S: Aunty Ummitalib, I'm still waiting for the answer to my questions.

Assalaamu 'alaykum
Aunty ummitaalib refuses to discuss this subject..so sorry!

[Muslimah.]

:ws:
Are we, by the way, talking about faminism? Just an academic query.
Wassalam

I am by no means a feminist, sorry if it came across that way. What I was trying to say is we need more women helping sisters islah and more active women in the community. This is it, a call for more active Muslimahs at better standards like in the time of the prophet. We are not asking for positions that Islam says women can't fill like the position of an imam!
Just thought i'd clarify, Jzk
Wassalam

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

Khala,

It's not about how you feel and just saying it doesn't do much.

MAKE THEM FEEL THE SAME WAY YOU FEEL!!!

This is the purpose of this thread.

When I hear both the above mentioned sisters say what you said, I'll say Alhamdulillah...

wa'alaykumus salaam ww
To get rid of the effects of western education and its anti-Islamic propagation (specially where women are concerned) we have to rely solely on the mecry of Allah subahaanahu wata'ala. I should know since I was one of the victims. With the fadl of Allah ta'ala and the barakah of Hazrats XYZ (sorry, could not resist!) I feel no trace of it is left. As an older member who has "been there" it pains me. We've had discussions in the sister's forum and we try. Requesting your du'a

[ummitaalib]

Muslim women of the yesteryears not only taught & guided other women , but also their husbands . So, why cannot knowledgable women today guide other women ?

There are so many issues in our societies that need to be addressed but are brushed under the carpet because women don't know where to turn to. Many times, they're forced to simply shut up & put up.

...

my dear sister bubbles, itis still being done...women excell in many ways all around us. We just need to look....even though in some cases they may be forced to shut up and put up (i know of a few such cases) however on the whole women are encouraged to acquire deeni knowledge.

Judging from some of the sisters' comments here I think I'm very very lucky with the women I know..Alhamdulillah!

[Maripat]

But why ?

This is not an attack on you sister, I'm just genuinely curious ...since when did women become tabi' of men ?

Muslim women of the yesteryears not only taught & guided other women , but also their husbands . So, why cannot knowledgable women today guide other women ?

There are so many issues in our societies that need to be addressed but are brushed under the carpet because women don't know where to turn to. Many times, they're forced to simply shut up & put up.

On one extreme, we have all those modern Islamic feminists re-interpreting Islamic laws completely and on the other, we have women who can help totally shying off from taking any major, active Islamic role in the community...

:salam:
(1) Allah (SWT) says that man and woman are equal but man has slight superiority.
(2) Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said that the day your affairs are run by women it is better for you to be below the earth than above it.
Wassalam

[Taliban1]

Assalaamu 'alaykum
Aunty ummitaalib refuses to discuss this subject..so sorry!

:ws:

Aunty, instead of keeping one waiting for eternity please just respond when you see some questions directed at you next time.

Not very nice to keep on waiting.

And please don't bring up a topic which you cannot discuss. It creates confusions. Now laymen like me will think man there must be something really supernatural about the path Aunty Ummitalib mentioned but refuses to discuss it in public. Now people like me will be disillusioned.

SORRY

:jazak:

[Taliban1]

:salam:
(1) Allah (SWT) says that man and woman are equal but man has slight superiority.
(2) Beloved Prophet (PBUH) said that the day your affairs are run by women it is better fro you to be below the earth than above it.
Wassalam

:ws:

2) Which affairs? Please explain.

[Maripat]

:ws:

2) Which affairs? Please explain.

:salam:
Sayyidi,
It is a hadith-not my words, so I owe no explanation.
Thanks.

[Taliban1]

:salam:
Sayyidi,
It is a hadith-not my words, so I owe no explanation.
Thanks.

:ws:

It does need an explanation Shaikh :)

For example, If the affairs of the home are run by the wife it would be wrong?

:jazak:

[Taliban1]

That's good to hear as well. Also, do you know about sister Fadila of AskImam.org ? Sa7?

Why are you asking Khala this question? What's the purpose?

[Maripat]

:ws:

It does need an explanation Shaikh :)

For example, If the affairs of the home are run by the wife it would be wrong?

:jazak:
:salam:
When beloved Prophet (PBUH) went home and kneaded the flour, I suppose, the affair was being run by one of the mothers of the believers (RA). So the answer to your query will be that no it is not wrong. Next consider a situation when the two opinions-of husband and wife, are at variance and there is absolutely no way of reconciling then the point number (1) of my post, the Verse from Holy Qur'an (its second part) becomes applicable. To do the opposite will make the Hadith operative.
And Allah Most High knows the best.
Wassalam

[mercyofAllah]

Bismillah
:salam:
I do accept that there should be more women prepared to help the other muslim women and Alhamdulillah there are women working in the same line as people have brought out the examples but it seems they are known only to the closer circles. It would be really nice more and more women get to know women like that and seek their company.

Now when it comes to the point that women should all together abandon having men as shuyook when they are known good in guidance, I have a different view. Right in this thread we saw the example of Rabia Basri (RA) who was a woman but that didn't stop men from seeking her guidance. So is the case with men like when we know so and so shaikh is a kamil shaikh, I don't think it is wrong to seek his guidance. They have a good level of spiritual maturity about dealing with women. If Prophet SAW was alive today, every man and woman would like to benefit from him SAW and so is the case with men too like when they are really good, I don't see anything wrong in having islahi taluq. When I say good spiritual maturity, all the adab of Islam comes with him and there is no fear of fitna from such a person and they know well how to deal with women. There might be cases of fitna in some people but we should not paint everyone with the same. When it comes to taking them as shuyook, it is not that women keep chatting with them. They take the position of spiritual father in the hearts for that is the azmat they get because of their position, behavior and guidance.

There is no limit in getting close to Allah SWT for there are higher and higher levels. If I have a good company of women from whom I benefit and love their company and then I also see a shaikh (man) as a kamil shaikh, cant I get benefited from him along with the company of the pious women company. Of course I will discuss with sisters those things that I am more comfortable with them but these are not the only things I have to come across. If I see a Shaikh (man) of higher spiritual level, why should I limit myself just to women when there is no limit in attaining good spiritual level? Same goes with the other way that is when there is a woman of higher spiritual level than men like Rabia Basri (RA), our salaf sought her guidance and she guided them. Allahu alam.

So I do stress that there should be more women who should be well prepared to guide the muslim women and these women could be the women of shuyook, like their wives, daughters and so on or anyone capable of that. And when it comes to taking men as shuyook I take the moderate position of how Maulana Abu Hajira said that there is nothing wrong within islamic perspective. Allahu alam.

Sorry if I hurt anyone.

Wassalam

[muminah]

These are hardly revolutionary organisations. They offer their services nationwide but they’re not exactly national, renowned and highly effective. The fact that I had to google one of them attests to that. If we’re looking at sisters magazine, then its not the first national magazine for Muslim women, written by Muslim women. ‘My Sister’ by students of Jamia, Bradford was founded almost 20 years ago. The efforts of Deobandi organisations are often overlooked due to their simplicity. The simplicity of a door to door gasht, a speech at the mimbar, a black and white publication, a student and teacher sitting on the floor with a book on a wooden bench may not be fancy and modern but it’s the effect that counts. I’m all for modernisation but in my heart, I sometimes feel Islam is a simple religion and simple methods are most effective.

Where exactly is 'My sister' now? The truth is the content from My sister was very dry. Even in those days, it was didn't have a readership outside of deobandi circles.

I agree that dawah tools don't need to be fancy, but the truth is senior deobandi aalimas (minus a few exceptions) are not reaching out to the wider Muslim community, they are just reaching out to their own tiny little bubble.

[UmHasan]

My Sister was a magazine aimed at a more discerning audience and was not at all 'dry'. True, it was not full of recipes, fashion, careers advice like the more recent women's magazine but it contained Islamic articles and themes and was not a modern lifestyle magazine. My Sister was actually read by many outside the Deobandi community. How on earth would you know who the readership was? You have absolutely no connection to the magazine, it's editorial group and have not even glanced at their subscription list yet you make these assumptions and pass them off as facts.

In the end, people will have their own prejudices which will mean they will always find fault with anything associated with certain organisations and certain scholars which will prevent them from appreciating the good that is done by those who don't fit in to their own particular choice group.

As I said before, these 'senior Deobandi aalimahs' you are referring to will not come to you. You need to go to them.

[ankaboot]

UmHasan MashaAllah you are doing a wonderful job here on the Forum as well as outside the Forum and you don't need to justify anything. Keep doing what you are doing to the best of your ability amd may Allah accept your efforts and bless you, ameen. Women have many duties and our first duty lie towards helping and supporting our husband and taking care of his needs, bringing up our children in a solid Islamic environment, taking care of the rest of our family, doing our own daily aamal, plus the house work like cooking, cleaning, etc. etc......

In the time left if a learned woman like you can help even 1 sister with committment that is a great service towards the Ummah, I can see from the Sister's room that you do more than help one sister, and may Allah reward you for this as well as all the other Aalimas and non Aalimas who are committed to help the sisters in any way possible.

One thing we need to understand is that there has to be committment from both sides, the one who is helping (teaching) as well as the one who is learning. From my experience I can tell you (I am not an Aalima and I am not young, so I have a lot of time on hand to give, Alhamdulillah) in the Halaqas that we have every Friday I reach the place 15 to 20 minutes before time and the sisters who come give or take 1 or 2 they always come atleast half an hour late and though there are 20 to 25 ladies there are probably 5 or 6 who come regularly and out of those there are 3 that are over 60 who really want to learn something.

So it all depends how committed people are, and how much do they really want to learn. Since I have a lot of time on hand I can go and sit in the Halaqa place for hours but how do you expect young married girls to leave their husbands, children and family members and do the same.

All I want to really say is that WHEN SOMEONE IS REALLY THIRSTY FOR KNOWLEDGE OF dEEN THAN THEY WILL LOOK FOR SOURCES AND ALLAH WILL GUIDE THEM IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION TO THE RIGHT PERSON. There are many sisters out there who will help inshaAllah, and there are many who are helping. May Allah bless them, ameen.

[mukhtar]

:salam:

The purpose of searching and finding the Sheikh of Tarbiyya (the one one does bay'at with) and the purpose of keeping company of pious women is different.

The connection to the Sheikh of Tarbiyya is an internal spiritual matter more than anything else. It has been proven through time and experience that there is no attainment of ma'rifah without the Kumal (plural of Kamil) mashaikh of tasawwuf; except in rare cases-and a rare case does not hold the position of a rule (An naadir la hukma lahu)...

The company of pious women is a means to benefit further and nurture the spiritual connection with the Sheikh.

Our sisters should be encouraged to have confidence in themselves in helping other sisters on the path to piety; whichever way that works is fine, as long as it is devoid of disobedience.

Some people may have reservations about the concept of mashaikh of tasawwuf...the only way to clear your reservations/confusion is to take bay'a at their hands and keep their company.


Just let the people of tasawwuf live their life, as mentioned by Abdul Qadir Jelani RA:

لكنه بدون ذوق ما دري
و الذوق يغني فيه عن معبر
But it could never be understood without personal experience
And the personal experience is beyond expression

Our women can and should take bay'at with mashaikh; they should also then exert whatever efforts they can to assist other women on the path of piety.

Allah ta'alaa certainly knows best.

Mukhtar

[sudoku]

:salam:

:mash: Great posts by ankaboot and shaykh mukhtar. Allahumma zid fa zid.

[Hafiz Gee]

Salam

someone mentioned sister fadila earlier. she's the sister of a really good family friend here in calgary.

when i was about two inches tall, sister fadila was teaching me along with a whole pack of other children how to make wudu, pray salah, read quran, aqidah etc. basically she ran her own basement madrassa in calgary for a few years before going back to south africa. her advices can be regularly found on askimam.

[abdlashay]

as salam u alaikum

We have to know the answer to these basic questions
1. "What is islah?'" and
2."How is islah done?'
to understand the issue being discussed in this thread.

There seems to be a confusion about the understanding of both of these things.

Islah: reformation, betterment. Of what? Amal or heart? both? which one is first?
Can it be done with halaqas/dars/bayait/zikr alone?

Only after clarifying these issues something positive will come out of this thread.

was salam

[Maripat]

as salam u alaikum

We have to know the answer to these basic questions
1. "What is islah?'" and
2."How is islah done?'
to understand the issue being discussed in this thread.

There seems to be a confusion about the understanding of both of these things.

Islah: reformation, betterment. Of what? Amal or heart? both? which one is first?
Can it be done with halaqas/dars/bayait/zikr alone?

Only after clarifying these issues something positive will come out of this thread.

was salam

:salam:
There are sins. We human beings have the capability to commit them and will keep committing them till the day of Judgement. This is one of the meaning of being human. We should not commit sins. But if we end up doing that then we should do taubah.

Then there is habit of committing sins. This is where correction comes into place. It is virtually impossible to give up these on your own. If you can do it on your own then- fine.

This process of giving up habit of sins under somebody's supervision is islah.

Then their are Sunnah. These are the preferable acts. If we have them in our habit then that is good.
If not then the company of pious people bring us to them. By the blessings of their company Sunnah actions enter our habits. This too is islah.

I hope this suffices for the present purposes.

Wassalam

[ummitaalib]

Assalaamu 'alaykum ww
Jazakallaahu khyaran to respected brother mukhtar. May I please humbly request you to speak earlier in such threads and restore equilibrium as Allah ta'ala has blessed you with eloquence, insight and tact which some of us lack.

PS: I was an avid reader of "My Sister" and it got passed around to many. I still have old copies of those which had info i wanted to keep. A lot of info which I was in search of at the time often came up in one of the monthly issues. Alhamdulillah it was a very beneficial magazine

[UmHasan]

:jazak: to Khalah ankaboot. May Allah accept all your sacrifies and efforts and all of ours too. I guess I have ended up justifying my views too much lately and in the process getting defensive at times due to the constant barage of criticism and negativity. I don't for one minute think that our Deobandi community of ulamah, aalimat, shuyookh, madaaris and other organisations are without fault. Of course there is more than enough room for improvement, I just don't agree with critising every effort publicly to try and shame people into change. Change comes from going out and getting involved, personal sacrifices, making dua profusley and keeping to the limits that Allah has set out.

In the end, I think most of us agree with the initial point that Ml. Taliban set out to discuss.

[ImamGhazzaali]

I guess I have ended up justifying my views too much lately and in the process getting defensive at times due to the constant barage of criticism and negativity.

I agree. Do those people on here hate you? No sarcasm intended.

[Taliban1]

Of course there is more than enough room for improvement, I just don't agree with critising every effort publicly to try and shame people into change.

There are two types of criticism, constructive and destructive.

The problem is that we see every criticism as destructive and then we come in for the kill!

My niyat with starting this thread was to encourage our knowledgeable sisters to come forward and help other muslim sisters in every field. But it was turned into a fight!

I mentioned Dr Farhat Hashmi only as an example. The sad part is that we have better talent than her but our talent is being wasted. They utilize the talent and get a mass following. We waste our talent in issuing Fatwas only which are later rejected by our own tribe!

الله مستعان!

[Taliban1]

May I please humbly request you to speak earlier in such threads and restore equilibrium as Allah ta'ala has blessed you with eloquence, insight and tact which some of us lack.


I really fail to understand you people!

May Allah give us hidayat...

[Maripat]

There are two types of criticism, constructive and destructive.

:salam:
This methodology based on criticism is wrong. Allah (SWT) has asked us to solve our problems by consultation (mashwirah). There are incessant attacks on Ahl-e-Sunnah from different quarters and to adopt a critical attitude is not going to bring positive results. Not all consultations (mashwirahs) can be public. Reason is obvious-it will be self defeating and foolish to present your weakness to the world.

And yes may Allah (SWT) guide us all.
Wassalam

[amr123]

:salam:
This methodology based on criticism is wrong. Allah (SWT) has asked us to solve our problems by consultation (mashwirah). There are incessant attacks on Ahl-e-Sunnah from different quarters and to adopt a critical attitude is not going to bring positive results. Not all consultations (mashwirahs) can be public. Reason is obvious-it will be self defeating and foolish to present your weakness to the world.

And yes may Allah (SWT) guide us all.
Wassalam

:ws:

:thumbsup:

[Taliban1]

:salam:
This methodology based on criticism is wrong. Allah (SWT) has asked us to solve our problems by consultation (mashwirah). There are incessant attacks on Ahl-e-Sunnah from different quarters and to adopt a critical attitude is not going to bring positive results. Not all consultations (mashwirahs) can be public. Reason is obvious-it will be self defeating and foolish to present your weakness to the world.

And yes may Allah (SWT) guide us all.
Wassalam

:ws:

Everyone knows our weaknesses already :)

You can see it as criticism or consultation or advice.

If you don't review your mistakes how are you going to correct them?

[amr123]

:salam:

Most of us do not know how to advice properly. Making a hue and cry won't necessarily give a positive outcome.


A very good article about being religious and having good manners at the same time.


Manners and Advice


Many of us, though we may have sincere and righteous intentions, have recently misplaced our ahklaq (i.e. we have lost our manners). Many of us (myself included) have forgotten the proper way to advise our fellow Muslims. When we advise our brothers and sisters if they are doing something incorrectly, we must remember to do it for the sake of Allah (SWT) with the best of intentions. The believer looks for excuses, not blame for his brother. We want the best for our brothers and sisters and hence we advise them because we love them, not because we think we are better than them. For if we think we are better than them, then this is arrogance and pride, and arrogance and pride was the sin that got the rejected and accursed devil kicked out of paradise and damned. We should not think we are better than others. We need to humble ourselves and be thankful that we are in a position to advise others. We shouldn’t advise people harshly, rather we need to be gentle, yet firm. The Messenger of Allah (saw) was the best of examples sent to mankind and he would be gentle with others. We have heard the hadith of the man who urinated in the masjid and the Prophet (SAW) handled the situation in the most eloquent of ways. Nowadays, if a brother is praying without a turban or a "kufi" (head-covering) or his pants below his ankles in the masjid, we may berate him, but is this really the best way, will he continue coming to this masjid? There may be a time for harshness, but many of us are not in the situation to handle it as we are the laymen.



With that being said, we need give advice in private. None of us likes being called out in public and hence we should treat others the way we would want to be treated. Additionally, when we receive advice, regardless of who it is from, we need to be thankful and considerate of it. In general, it takes courage to give advice and when one receives it, we should pray for that brother or sister that advised us because they love us, regardless of whether they are correct or not.



We need to be on our best behaviour at all times for our akhlaq may be what draws people to our beautiful and truthful religion and way of life. Nowadays, the brothers with the big beards or the sisters with niqaab are the ones that seem to be the most intimidating, but this is incorrect. We should set good examples. Who said to be religious means to be stern and harsh? Often times, harshness by our brothers and sisters may scare off those people that are young and new to the religion. Wasn’t there one point in our lives not long ago where we may not have turned out the way we have if it wasn’t for someone who was gentle and kind to us in their teachings?



The salaf (our pious predecessors) used to study ahklaq (good manners) twice as long as they studied knowledge. How much time have we personally devoted to purifying our souls and being steadfast in our manners and characteristics. The Prophet (SAW) said, “I guarantee a house in the highest part of Jannah for one who has good manners” (Abu Dawud) so why not aim for the highest part of paradise. We need to be gentle, honest, and sincere in our character and manners.



This is just a short reminder to myself first and foremost and then to all of you for we know the reminder benefits the believer. And of course, if you have any advice for this group, please let us know so that we may all benefit, insha Allah. May Allah (SWT) allow us all to have the best of manners, to attain the highest part of Jannah, and to love one another for the sake of Allah (SWT). Ameen


Ameen

[UmHasan]

I agree. Do those people on here hate you? No sarcasm intended.

:-) That's a strong word. I have not got that impression myself. But I speak my mind and stand up for what I believe in and there are not many sisters left on SF who are as reckless as me although many have agreed in private. I represent a certain demographic and come from a certain backgound that a few have issues with but I am confident in the teachings I have gained from my elders, :alhamd: .

As for my disagreements with muminah, there is no love lost there so noone need worry. We have had many conversations away from the main forum and there is mutual love and respect. It doesn't mean we can't disagree.

[muminah]

As for my disagreements with muminah, there is no love lost there so noone need worry. We have had many conversations away from the main forum and there is mutual love and respect. It doesn't mean we can't disagree.

:-) Absolutely, you are indeed my favourite person on this forum :) Uhibbuki fillah. For the past couple of years that I have been visiting this forum, you are the best scholar I have come across - you approach discussions with maturity, diligence and careful consideration and present them with eloquence. May Allah increase you in your knowledge, and gives us the tawfeeq to benefit from you. Aameen.

PS. When I was talking about exceptions, of course that included you.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

The purpose of searching and finding the Sheikh of Tarbiyya (the one one does bay'at with) and the purpose of keeping company of pious women is different.

The connection to the Sheikh of Tarbiyya is an internal spiritual matter more than anything else. It has been proven through time and experience that there is no attainment of ma'rifah without the Kumal (plural of Kamil) mashaikh of tasawwuf; except in rare cases-and a rare case does not hold the position of a rule (An naadir la hukma lahu)...

The company of pious women is a means to benefit further and nurture the spiritual connection with the Sheikh.

Our sisters should be encouraged to have confidence in themselves in helping other sisters on the path to piety; whichever way that works is fine, as long as it is devoid of disobedience.

Some people may have reservations about the concept of mashaikh of tasawwuf...the only way to clear your reservations/confusion is to take bay'a at their hands and keep their company.


Just let the people of tasawwuf live their life, as mentioned by Abdul Qadir Jelani RA:

لكنه بدون ذوق ما دري
و الذوق يغني فيه عن معبر
But it could never be understood without personal experience
And the personal experience is beyond expression

Our women can and should take bay'at with mashaikh; they should also then exert whatever efforts they can to assist other women on the path of piety.

Allah ta'alaa certainly knows best.

Mukhtar

:ws: Respected Shaykh,

Its amazing as to how much time people have on this site to argue for 15 pages without understanding or addressing the central point!

We are DEAD SET AGAINST the following as a first option!

This isn't good example, its a horrible example and nothing against the teachers or the students!


:ws:
A good example of this is my tafseer/tajweed class. The teacher's voice can only be heard on speaker, I have never seen him nor has he seen me or heard my voice. He gives his dars and the students take down their notes. Even for tajweed class, he reads a passage from the Qur'aan, explains each an every rule in that passage, and then does the du'aa for end of class. After that, the women from his family listen to each individual sister to make sure the rules are being applied.

This is 100th repetition of the same post for the last 2 ½ years.

Allah (SWT) has blessed South Africa & UK with Alimahs who have been through the system for a number of years and should be AT LEAST QUALIFIED to teach other Muslimahs Tajweed & Bahishti Zewar. There should be Halaqahs all over the country (locally) run by Muslimahs, taughted by Muslimahs, attended by Muslimahs, administred and controlled by Muslimahs.

If many of these institutes and graduates have produced 3-4 like Apa UmHasan then it down to the genuine of UmHasan, however the system needs to be looked at as to why it isn’t producing self-sufficient Muslimahs?

Note that no one is expecting the graduates to start teach Saheeh Bukhari but we believe that Tajweed & Bahishti Zewar can be taught to Muslimahs by Muslimahs and there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON for men to get involved in this matter.

Unfortunately most people (when they reflect deep down) will know what I saying is right but will never publicly agree because their mind is set that I am some sort of a deviant bent on destroying Darul-ulooms! :-)

We shouldn’t be talking about Shaykh (Maulana) Yusuf Motala (HA) or Shaykh (Maulana) Saleem Dhorat (HA) but we should be talking about Dr Farhat Hashmi (HA).

Dr Farhat Hashmi is not doing Islah, she is teaching basic Aqeedah, Qur’aan & Fiqh! And the reason British Muslimahs are Locking towards her is that there aren’t many British Muslimahs who are doing the same.

Same in Canada!
Same in USA!

I have said this before:


Eliminate Video
Eliminate Contact with men
Wear a Niqab
Eliminate (or mask) voice


Tell us what is preventing our Alimahs from teaching Muslimahs?

I am no longer the Ameer of Euro-Sunni & have nothing to do with it and a pure-Sufi-deobandi (i.e. Br Umar) is but the offer to assist any Alimah still stands. Ask your husband to contact us!


There are no issues with Tassawuff.
There are no issues with Aqeedah.
There are no issues with Hazrats.

Discuss as to why the first step for a Muslimah is to get connected to a Hazrat? Dr Farhat Hashmi's success proves that Muslimahs globally are not looking for “Hazrats”, they just want to learn their salah, fix their Qur’aan and know their Fiqh!

Taking Ba’yah to a Shaykh for Islah (of the Baatin) is a different matter and there are rules and regulations which the Shaykh needs to adhere to and that can be the subject of another discussion.

So back to the issue:

Why do Deobandi Muslimahs think that referring other Muslimahs to strange/Non-Mehram men is a suitable first option?

Why do Muslimahs need to be taught Tajweed & Behishti Zewar by men?

Simple, Pimple!!!

[Taliban1]

:ws: Respected Shaykh,

Its amazing as to how much time people have on this site to argue for 15 pages without understanding or addressing the central point!

:salam:

It has become quite common to talk about everything except the subject at hand.


Note that no one is expecting the graduates to start teach Saheeh Bukhari

I've seen women teach Saheeh Bukhari much better than men :)


Dr Farhat Hashmi is not doing Islah, she is teaching basic Aqeedah, Qur’aan & Fiqh!

If this is not Islah, then what is? Haqeeqat e Muhammadiya? Kashf e Quloob? Kashf e Quboor? or Flying in the air with Shaikh?


Why do Deobandi Muslimahs think that referring other Muslimahs to strange/Non-Mehram men is a suitable first option?

Exactly.

I'll add something here.

Why can't Aalimah's give fatwas?

Mufti Rasheed Ahmed (RA) used to send some questions to be answered by a woman. She used to write Fatwas. She was the only woman allowed by Hazrat to run a Banaat Madressah. All women staff. She taught Bukhari herself!

Where did she study?

By her brother, on PHONE! He was my ustad. Maulana Amir Sahib (RA). Died in an accident. He would study in Madressah in daytime and then call her at night to teach her everything he studied!

:jazak:

P.S: The funny thing is when it comes to ta'addud, they say: You can't think like a woman. But when it comes to this, then male Shaikh knows best about women :)

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

the responsibilty of teaching and imparting deeni ilm to a woman is that of her maharim.
you can't fix one wrong with another.
col. watch how you come accros to our sisters,especially those who have always maintained decorum and dignity.
woman in s.a. already learn whatever is in behishti zewar and much more in maktab already and they are taught by ladies.nobody objects to this.
the link with the shaikh is always maintained via the intermediary of a mahram and that is the type of shuyookh we are referring to.


was salam

[ankaboot]

Assalamu Alaikum, I am surprised that in Britain gils and women go to learn Tajweed and Beheshti Zewar and Basik day to day Fiqh from men, In Montreal and Toronto I know for a fact that there are many places where there are Halaqas for daily Qur'aan/Tajweed and Basic day to day masaail are held by women.

You are absolutely right Br. Colonel when you say that women should be thought by women, and those women who are conservative, they do look for women who can teach them and there children and there are many women out there that are fulfilling this duty happily for the pleasure of Allah whithout taking any compensation or very minimum when they are forced to.

As for women going for spiritual guidance to Shuyookh, as long as the Shaikhs are Sincere and Allah fearing and no laws of Shariah are being compromised and the Wali of an unmarried girl approves and as long as the Husband of a married woman is aware and agrees, then I don't see any problem with that.

We cannot gereralize a situation that probably exists in our area. Agreed that there should be Halaqas of this kind in every area, but we need committed sisters. I would request the brothers who are concerned to bring forward their wives and daughters and mothers and sisters and consult with their friends also to prepere the mature women in their families to take up this project and committ themselves to this cause

I do know that there are some women (teenagers up to 50years and over) who prefer to go and study with Men like Yasir Qaadhi, Yaasir Birjas, Mohammad Al Shareef and their type because it is the latest Fad (sorry for the slang) One thing that you probably don't know (maybe you do) many women want to go to Al Huda (Dr. Farhat Hashimi) or AlMaghrib, Al Kauthar, Al Bayyinnah or other Online Classes because they get a PAPER from there which is called A DIPLOMA (astaghfirullah, I am being sarcastic). What that piece of paper will get them only Allah knows.

[ankaboot]

I am wondering Br. Colonel, what do you find wrong withthe example that Sudoku posted, please explain if you don't mind, I read again and again and still can't get what is wrong about it?

[UmHasan]

@Khalah ankaboot, there are many British women teaching Beheshti Zewar, tajweed and other Islamic sciences to other girls and women, hundreds even. There are hardly any madaaris left where the basic rulings are taught by men. Most, if not all institutes give this to the women to teach. The cases left where men are teaching the women are very few and are mostly only the higher level kitabs or one day events taught by well known scholars.

Most women in this position are juggling family commitments and housework with teaching responsibilities so it is not always possible to spend too much of our lives after our studies, pursuing further knowledge.

[ankaboot]

UmHasan, this is exactly what I am saying, how much is one woman supposed to do??? if you check my previous post you will see that I made this point,

The brothers who are concerned about this issue must let the women in their family go through the learning process and then relocate to areas where there are no women available to pass on the knowledge of basic daily Islamic living and Qur'aan and Tajweed and simple masaail to the ladies of that area. None of us can leave our house and family and our area where we are trying to do something with the help of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala, we cannot abandon our areas and start something in other areas.

I really wish the brothers will ponder over the idea I posted in my previous post, because without the help and approval of the Man of the house a women cannot and should not take up such big responsibility..

[muminah]

I do know that there are some women (teenagers up to 50years and over) who prefer to go and study with Men like Yasir Qaadhi, Yaasir Birjas, Mohammad Al Shareef and their type because it is the latest Fad (sorry for the slang) One thing that you probably don't know (maybe you do) many women want to go to Al Huda (Dr. Farhat Hashimi) or AlMaghrib, Al Kauthar, Al Bayyinnah or other Online Classes because they get a PAPER from there which is called A DIPLOMA (astaghfirullah, I am being sarcastic). What that piece of paper will get them only Allah knows.

To be fair, the same could be said about a very few aalims/aalimas too. But to be honest, I think by the time you undergo 5/7 years of study, I'm sure intentions would be rectified, and the same with people who may be attending al maghrib for the certificate.

The difference between people at al maghrib and girls in aalima classes is that girls at al maghrib have come of their own choice completely, whereas sometimes you find it is parents who want their girls to be aalimas and the girls don't really want to (this may be the same case for boys too). However, this is in the minority.

As UmHasan said, Colonel Hardstone, I don't know of any madaaris where girls are studying basic fiqh from men. However, this may be the case in some isocs and remote parts where there are not enough aalimas. In most places they are taught by women, some of whom are not qualified to teach or don't know how to teach youngsters. The best thing you could do is organise teacher training for maktab teachers.

[muminah]

UmHasan, this is exactly what I am saying, how much is one woman supposed to do??? if you check my previous post you will see that I made this point,

The brothers who are concerned about this issue must let the women in their family go through the learning process and then relocate to areas where there are no women available to pass on the knowledge of basic daily Islamic living and Qur'aan and Tajweed and simple masaail to the ladies of that area. None of us can leave our house and family and our area where we are trying to do something with the help of Allah Subhanahu Wa Taala, we cannot abandon our areas and start something in other areas.

I really wish the brothers will ponder over the idea I posted in my previous post, because without the help and approval of the Man of the house a women cannot and should not take up such big responsibility..

I agree. Men need to support their wives, sisters, mothers to excel in their knowledge, and give them confidence and space to engage in activities related to the deen. We have aalimas mashaAllah, but they are so busy preparing biryani every other day, and looking after inlaws (this is just an example) that seriously how do you expect them to have time? Someone was telling me recently how the head of a large madrassah in the UK who is a woman mashaAllah, for many years she has lived in the madrassah in the week days away from her husband so that she can concentrate on the madressah (and I'm sure some of you know who I am talking about). If we had more husbands like hers who are willing to give it up having fresh food on the table every evening (just one example of the sacrifice), then aalimas/muslim women would have the time to gain more knowledge and engage with the community and the situation would then be different.

[UmHasan]

.....but they are so busy preparing biryani every other day..... :rolleyes:

:jazak: for the vote of confidence. May Allah make me as per your husn dhan. Ahabbakalladhi ahbabtani lahu!

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

I agree. Men need to support their wives, sisters, mothers to excel in their knowledge, and give them confidence and space to engage in activities related to the deen. We have aalimas mashaAllah, but they are so busy preparing biryani every other day, and looking after inlaws (this is just an example) that seriously how do you expect them to have time? Someone was telling me recently how the head of a large madrassah in the UK who is a woman mashaAllah, for many years she has lived in the madrassah in the week days away from her husband so that she can concentrate on the madressah (and I'm sure some of you know who I am talking about). If we had more husbands like hers who are willing to give it up having fresh food on the table every evening (just one example of the sacrifice), then aalimas/muslim women would have the time to gain more knowledge and engage with the community and the situation would then be different.

I wonder how the sahabah and sahbiyyah :anhum: would have lived upto todays expectations.Imagine Anas bin Malik :anhu:....how his wives would have coped.....

what you are saying sister translates into one of three scenarios-
the lady should abandon her parental role and other roles in order to look after society.
the man should take on the role of the woman in the home so that she can look after society.
both the man and woman should abandon the home in order to take care of the society.


A WOMAN'S PRIMARY ROLE IS IN THE HOME WHETHER THAT IS PALATABLE OR NOT.
By the way,what is the point of this thread? what's the need for these reforms now?
why can't we stick to tradition?
are you scared that deobandi tradion is causing numbers to decrease?
are deo woman becoming murtaddahs in droves?
do you feel deo woman are oppressed and shackled by deo tradition?
do you feel deo tradition is outdated and irrelevant?
what is the point of these threads that pop out once every few months,whether it's woman going to the graveyard,backward methods e.tc. e.tc. e.t.c?

What I don't understand is that people have their own forums,own media,own lives et.c. If you want to break from deo tradition,by all means-if u haven't done so already.If you want to give khilfah to woman or if you want to learn bukhari from woman(ladies),if you want to have al maghrib type course,if you want to make videos e.t.c., by all means....nobody is holding you back.why do you have to always impose the issue?

was salam

[muminah]

I wasn't going to reply to your many questions as I really don't have time but I thought I'd make a quick exception.




what you are saying sister translates into one of three scenarios-
the lady should abandon her parental role and other roles in order to look after society.
the man should take on the role of the woman in the home so that she can look after society.
both the man and woman should abandon the home in order to take care of the society.

It doesn't. UmHasan and sisters like her are a living testimony to that. In fact, Aisha RA and the sahabiyyat are the greatest testimony to that. They taught hadeeth and took part in battles, are you saying they abandoned their homes?

And anyhow since when was not looking after the in laws abandoning the home or making biryani abandoning the home? If the husband is so concerned about looking after his parents, he should do it himself.



why can't we stick to tradition?
are you scared that deobandi tradion is causing numbers to decrease?
are deo woman becoming murtaddahs in droves?


The truth is yes.


What I don't understand is that people have their own forums,own media,own lives et.c. If you want to break from deo tradition,by all means-if u haven't done so already.If you want to give khilfah to woman or if you want to learn bukhari from woman(ladies),if you want to have al maghrib type course,if you want to make videos e.t.c., by all means....nobody is holding you back.why do you have to always impose the issue?

I didn't impose the issue, I was merely sharing my opinion and experience. The reason I do this is because there are many women who because of the deobandi tradition are moving away from Islam. I am not worried about those who are joining the salafi school or other schools of thought.

[London786]

I have a lot to say on this issue. Many members of my family went to the 2 most famous darulooms in the UK. Lancaster and Bradford and my father is close friends with some of the founders and male teachers of the places. Now there is a lot that can be said but let me tackle muminah first. Dear respected sister. With all due respect Muminah the role of a lady is very clear. She is first a daughter, wife, sister etc before anything else. I am very aware of the situation of our sisters. The situation in the UK is totally messed up. The main reason is due to sending girls (and boys for that matter) to kuffar schools which are mixed (or not mixed). We also have the massive problem of girls these days becoming very career minded. So many girls nowadays work (not due to neccesity) and this has caused massive social problems. The situation of the womenfolk is real bad. Now with regards to the solution. Frankly I dont think most of the girls graduating from darulooms cant teach anything. I dont think they can teach tajwid or bahisti zewar. I can guarantee a person that the average salafi/al huda sister is more practicing than a deobandi sister. The problem lies not with the girls themselves but other factors such as the system they are taught as well as the outside environment. We cannot use UmmHasan as an example. If I was a teacher and and 1 student in a class of 30 gets A-grades and the rest fail miserbaly would I consider my institute a success? The same is true of the darulooms. You get some girls who are just a bit gifted and no matter what system they go through they will achieve something. The sad position is that the majority of girls who come from Daruloom are not worthy of teaching behesti zewar. Their islaah is not done. The girls mostly lack all love of deen. The salafi sisters are way ahead.I am saying this as a person who is deobandi.

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

I wasn't going to reply to your many questions as I really don't have time but I thought I'd make a quick exception.



It doesn't. UmHasan and sisters like her are a living testimony to that. In fact, Aisha RA and the sahabiyyat are the greatest testimony to that. They taught hadeeth and took part in battles, are you saying they abandoned their homes?


sister,did the sahabiyyah have schedules?
was this an everyday thing?
did the other sahabiyyah go to follow a course?
what was their normal routine?
I'm sure Ayesha :anha: had halqas and conducted courses which the sahabiyyah flocked to.....oh,and could we be enlightened as to where these halqas were conducted.
I don't know how the deo system is less in compliance with the sahabah:anhum: as compared to salafis really.
my view on girls madrassahs are known here.


And anyhow since when was not looking after the in laws abandoning the home or making biryani abandoning the home? If the husband is so concerned about looking after his parents, he should do it himself.
where exactly did I promote any such idea?
imho,the in-laws are not the responsibility of the wife,with the exception of certain circumstances.
However,making biryani or whatever and bringing up the kids and looking after the home,is the first and primary role of the wife-not the upkeep of society.


The truth is yes.

sister,I'm not in a position to comment on your area e.t.c.
however,if you believe this is the situation globally,then that is a gross error.
deen does not change with the times and people.
the people have to bring their lives in line with deen.
some of our akabireen were very strong in these issues and some of us would not be able to digest their ideas.
at the end of the day,numbers rise and fall-principals are not supposed to change because of numbers.

May Allah Save,Guide and Protect us all.Aameen
was salam

[Maripat]

.... but they are so busy preparing biryani every other day, and looking after inlaws (this is just an example) ...
:salam:
This indeed is Ihsan. Also I hope these women have not left parents behind-to be made demeaning fun of-by the respective daughter-in-law.
Wassalam

[Colonel_Hardstone]

:salam:

the responsibilty of teaching and imparting deeni ilm to a woman is that of her maharim.
you can't fix one wrong with another.
col. watch how you come accros to our sisters,especially those who have always maintained decorum and dignity.
woman in s.a. already learn whatever is in behishti zewar and much more in maktab already and they are taught by ladies.nobody objects to this.
the link with the shaikh is always maintained via the intermediary of a mahram and that is the type of shuyookh we are referring to.


was salam

:ws: brother,

I request you to put your “hatred” for me aside for a second and consider that me and you are saying the same thing.

Despite reassurances from Aapa UmHasan I can assure that you men are teaching girls in Darul-ulooms in UK and I CANNOT see a reason for that whatsoever!


Muslimahs should be taught by Muslimahs.

That’s all my point is.

Hazrats, Biryani etc hasn’t been brought up by me and I am still waiting for someone to answer as to why Muslimahs need to be taught by men!


I am wondering Br. Colonel, what do you find wrong withthe example that Sudoku posted, please explain if you don't mind, I read again and again and still can't get what is wrong about it?

:salam:

Where there is no choice, there is not much wrong with that but why resort to this? What are the hunderds of graduates of our British Darul-ulooms doing?

Why???

This is my last post on the subject because people like twisting things instead of trying to understand what the person is saying. The actions of Ulama has an impact on laymen and Ulamah give an inch, laymen take a YARD!

[London786]

Colonal out of of a class of 30 I doubt even 2-3 can read an arabic book from cover from cover and after a few years of graduating the same is true of urdu. Let me not even get started on the islaah side of things...salah, hijab, niqab, facebook and all the other sharia stuff. Ask 50% off them after 5 years of graduating who ibn hajar was and what madhab he followed.

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

:ws: brother,

I request you to put your “hatred” for me aside for a second and consider that me and you are saying the same thing.

Despite reassurances from Aapa UmHasan I can assure that you men are teaching girls in Darul-ulooms in UK and I CANNOT see a reason for that whatsoever!


Muslimahs should be taught by Muslimahs.

That’s all my point is.

Hazrats, Biryani etc hasn’t been brought up by me and I am still waiting for someone to answer as to why Muslimahs need to be taught by men!



:salam:

Where there is no choice, there is not much wrong with that but why resort to this? What are the hunderds of graduates of our British Darul-ulooms doing?

Why???

This is my last post on the subject because people like twisting things instead of trying to understand what the person is saying. The actions of Ulama has an impact on laymen and Ulamah give an inch, laymen take a YARD!

col. please forgive for any ill directed from me.
I am aware that we that we share almost the same views.my posts were not dedicated to you and i'm sorry if i came accross that way.however,i can't ignore the way we get carried away when discussing these issues.

was salam

[Maripat]

:salam:

col. please forgive for any ill directed from me.
I am aware that we that we share almost the same views.my posts were not dedicated to you and i'm sorry if i came accross that way.however,i can't ignore the way we get carried away when discussing these issues.
was salam
:salam
Directed.
Wassalam

[mukhtar]

I wasn't going to reply to your many questions as I really don't have time but I thought I'd make a quick exception.

And anyhow since when was not looking after the in laws abandoning the home or making biryani abandoning the home? If the husband is so concerned about looking after his parents, he should do it himself.


The truth is yes.


The reason I do this is because there are many women who because of the deobandi tradition are moving away from Islam. I am not worried about those who are joining the salafi school or other schools of thought.

:salam: respected sister.

If I may ask. Have you approached senior 'ulama about these matters?
By "approached", I mean discussed openly and in detail.

I lack time, as you do, to post on forums; I would be however interested in discussing this subject in detail, as there is much to learn from it and to share in terms of what works the best and how to determine that something is working and providing the benefit it does. We have discussed these kinds of matters with our senior mashaikh and have benefited from our studies and readings on the subject.

If you have time, I would like to open a thread in the sensitive Q&A section and request the mods to give you access to it;

There is no doubt that the responsibility lies on the learned people (whether 'ulama or not). The masses will only preserve their practice, or their imaan, when the learned people will be accessible to them and will show extreme kindness and flexibility with them.

There is much to say about this; I do agree with you that some of our traditional brethren could use some advice on how to deal with the common folk and help them preserve their Islam, no matter how little it is, and nurture them in the process of improving that Islam...I have discussed this with some in private, and I continue to do so...what you wrote deserves attention by the learned people in your communities.

I have posted before the saying of Ahmed Zarruq RA: "The faqih is the one who understands the situation of his times". This is in contrast with statements of the type "People have to adapt themselves to deen, not the reverse". The reality is that being strict and demanding should be restricted to our ownselves, but with the Muslims who have difficulty practicing their Islam, keeping them close to us is necessary, and they should be advised and assisted with an understanding of where they are and where they need to go next, not with the goal of making them be at a high level of practice overnight.

One of our senior 'ulama here in Mauritania, who passed away about a decade ago, was such with masses that others used to say "he does not even know what the word haram means"....the reality is that he was so deep in fiqh that he always attempted to find a way out for Muslims, to keep them close to deen and preserve their imaan. He was by no means lax or modernist....very far from that...

There is a passage in the book "Al Madkhal" that deals with how the 'ulama should behave with the masses, I will in shaa Allah dig it out and post it.

We ask Allah ta'alaa for tawfeeq.

[dr76]

Kindly provide a proof for this.I have advised many people to get their children admitted in her institutes and i would refrain from doing so if what you said is true.


:salam:

Two of my aunts here are hardcore salafis.. they are attached to a prominent Shaykha and attend her tafseer classes + dawah center.. her center has shunned farhat hashmi.

she was among the first people to warn me about Farhat hashmi..apart from the Hazrat Mufti sahab db's fatwa.. i called her today asking for' daleel '..
said her shaykhah has two main issues with Farhat Hashmi-

1) Excesive relaince on maududi's tafseer instead of Tafseer ibn Katheer.
2) giving talks in a sweet and attractive tone knowing well that men listen to her.


i had read a news article few months back with her statement that women can lead men in salah.. been searching for it.. shall let u know once i find it insha Allah..

the salafi sisters here in dubai take her for a deviant.. thats for sure..

wa assalam..

[umar_italy]

Seriously , are we fighting against the time ? Indeed Al-huda institute has changed the lives of many. Here in Karachi , more and more educated people are admitting their children in Al-Huda. As colonel said that merely opposing and passing fatwas against Dr Farhat Hashimi won't do it. Why does not the "opposition" provide an alternative to the people? I feel that there is a certain tendency in us that we have evolved into some "opposed to evolution traditionalists". Why are we sticking to a century year old system as if any amendment in the system according to the time will cause a disaster ? The old wine can not be served in a new glass ? The time is changing. We don't have shy and modest ladies like "Akbari and Asghari" of Deputy Nazeer Ahmed's "Toubat ul Nasooh" to deal with anymore.

I guess it's just matter of time, just "complaing" is of no use, we should rather strive to help things getting done: there is always some time needed, we can't expect changes to take place overnight, and this is true not only for the use of "modern methods" (as the one used by Zakir Naik, Farhat Hashmi, etc.), but also for the "de-indianization/de-urdification" of Deobandi minhaj, etc).

Salafis are good at using modern methodologies as they themselves are a product of modernity (and this can be said about some of your own ideas which are contaminated by some excessive "rationalism" and "empiricism", Dr. Sahab, due to your "modern education"; hope you don't take any offence, that's not my intention while highlighting that).

Deobandis are "traditional" and it always takes some time to "adapt" to a new situation: in the past they have been at the forefront of adapting to a new situation (see their opposition to colonialism based on multiple levels: Tabligh, Jihad, 'Ilm&Madaris, cultural/ideological opposition, etc.; the shifting from Farsi to Urdu, etc. - but that too didn't happen overnight!). In the last decades we have laid down a bit, resting on our laurels and on the past glories, but the signs of a re-awakening can already be seen, as well as the use of "modern methodologies", and this is true especially for places as South Africa, UK and USA.

Just give us time, Dr. Sahab, insha'Allah. ;)

:ws:

[umar_italy]

I guess it's just matter of time, just "complaing" is of no use, we should rather strive to help things getting done: there is always some time needed, we can't expect changes to take place overnight, and this is true not only for the use of "modern methods" (as the one used by Zakir Naik, Farhat Hashmi, etc.), but also for the "de-indianization/de-urdification" of Deobandi minhaj, etc).

Salafis are good at using modern methodologies as they themselves are a product of modernity (and this can be said about some of your own ideas which are contaminated by some excessive "rationalism" and "empiricism", Dr. Sahab, due to your "modern education"; hope you don't take any offence, that's not my intention while highlighting that).

Deobandis are "traditional" and it always takes some time to "adapt" to a new situation: in the past they have been at the forefront of adapting to a new situation (see their opposition to colonialism based on multiple levels: Tabligh, Jihad, 'Ilm&Madaris, cultural/ideological opposition, etc.; the shifting from Farsi to Urdu, etc. - but that too didn't happen overnight!). In the last decades we have laid down a bit, resting on our laurels and on the past glories, but the signs of a re-awakening can already be seen, as well as the use of "modern methodologies", and this is true especially for places as South Africa, UK and USA.

Just give us time, Dr. Sahab, insha'Allah. ;)

:ws:

On another side, I can see the necessity for utilizing "modern methodologies" but I'm not for the throwing away of the madrasa system at all, nor I understand all the "hype" about "modern education".

Let's remember that the "magic" "modern"-word is simply a tool for western cultural imperialism to impose its models and thought-processes. Its educative system is the product of a precise ideology, economic system, mindsets, etc.
It' not just a "neutral" product of "mind's modern development".

[Abu Salma]

:salam:

I agree with brother 'Umar.

Part of the success of the Salafi movement (and the HT boys) is their attack on Nationalism and Racism. Unfortunately it is hard to find a masjid in most European countries that is not a "Pakistani masjid", "Turkish masjid", "Gujurati masjid" etc... That is a big "turn-off" for searching young Muslims - not least converts. So when they find the rare ideological "Salafi" masjid, they feel included... Of course they will soon experience another type of intolerance there, but my point is that brother 'Umar is right - we have to present the Deobandi Maslak as it is in its kernel - not just as an "Indo-Pak" movement.

A lot of us are trying to learn Arabic - do we really have to learn Urdu too, to be included?

And this goes for men as well as women.

[UmHasan]

On another side, I can see the necessity for utilizing "modern methodologies" but I'm not for the throwing away of the madrasa system at all, nor I understand all the "hype" about "modern education".

Let's remember that the "magic" "modern"-word is simply a tool for western cultural imperialism to impose its models and thought-processes. Its educative system is the product of a precise ideology, economic system, mindsets, etc.
It' not just a "neutral" product of "mind's modern development".

Many of us do use modern technology within the limits of shariah. Yes, we are a traditional people and sometimes practical ideas need to be suggested by the laymen alongside help in implementing them but I also see the barakah in simplicity. But we use a smartboard, interactive tools, emails, forums, yahoo groups, texts, online lessons etc to communicate with sisters. What else can we do? Please lets have some more practical suggestions and also some offers to go out and help the madaaris implement these tools. Those who can't offer any of the above, can make dua profusely for the success of those doing dawah.

One of the reasons Farhat Hashmi is successful is because she is on TV and in everyone’s homes. Muslim women who are not practising don't need to wear a hijab and leave the comfort of their homes and go to a masjid, madrasah to participate. I doubt they'd be many Deobandi knowledgeable and pious sisters who would agree to that. At our events, even recording the sessions audio and video is strictly unallowed.

Also bear in mind, technology costs money and not all madaaris are in a position to spend that much money on modern technology. Fees are kept affordable and other funds are limited.

@ Colonel sahab, you used sudoko's example yet she has not lived in, or ever even been to the UK!! Her experience is of Canada and South Africa. Please mention the names of the darul ulooms where, as you say, primary kitabs of fiqh such as Beheshti Zewar and tajweed are being taught to women by men. If you do not wish to name them, I respect that, but please mention them in the Sensitive Section. Otherwise, I am having trouble accepting it as a fact.

To all who have used me as an example, I am surprised that judgements are being made about farigaats of madaaris based on what you know of me. It will seem like false humility for me to say this but I assure you it is nothing but the absolute truth that there are hundreds of farigaats who have benefitted from their knowledge and continue to benefit others much, much better than me. At a recent reunion, I realised just how insignificant my contribution and amal was compared to them. The fact that you do not know of these sisters, further justifies my point that most of you are in complete ignorance about the contribution that they have made to society and of their own personal amals. Yes, its true that there are some who leave madrasah and are not even capable of teaching BZ, but to depict all like that is a gross injustice. London786 sahab, you have tested a whole class of 30 aalimahs?!! =)

Please remember that we are encouraged to marry young as per the sunnah, we marry and then are encouraged to obey our husbands and respect the in laws as per the command of Allah, we have children and pregnancies and childrearing years, and we have housework, husbands, children and relatives to look after. If after all of this, some sisters only have time to teach a few hours of maktab each day, or write the odd weekly article, teach a few sisters at home then its hardly surprising. Yes, I know Deobandi’s aren’t the only ones with children and families but all I’m saying is I understand why some sisters have trouble finding the time to devote to dawah although I’m not saying this is an excuse to become complacent.

[Aram]

has anyone else ever noticed that women from a household which have Aalims or the men involved in tabligh ...i always expect them to be very knowledgeable in Islam because the Aalim or tablighi within their household would have made sure they at least know the basics, but some of them don't even know how to recite the Quran properly

it seems like the men in the household worry too much about Muslims outside of the home and less of the condition of those within their homes

wallahu alam

[Halima12345]

Ankaboot is right that people who have no female scholars should send their women and daughters to teach.
As a mother I was very wary about sending my daughter away from home and wary about sending her to a normal English school too. I researched the local school thoroughly and the girls madresa thoroughly too. If you think girls madrasah are a place for girls to relax and make friends your very mistaken. They are very strict, very careful and very organized. The one in Bradford is excellent. Noone can bring their girls up at home in the same environment. No tv no Internet studying Islam all day, strict punctuality on Namaz, Quran and behavior. They teach everything a girl should know about her deen and her role on life. It's the parents who spoil it after their girls come home and they Send them to uni or school or jobs and don't let them nurture the knowledge. It's their fault not the madresa. Oneof my daughters and her cousin went to madresa and all the rest of the girls in the family went to normal school. The madresa girls are more naik and practicing and much better Muslims. I reallyregret not sending my other two daughters because they are more interested in fashion friends and media and not into deen. So please think before you make judgement. The people who are saying silly things about the madrasahs are either very narrow minded or their minds have been poisoned against Islamic institutes They should notspeak without getting a proper idea of what happens there. The men only teach one or two books at the end of the course and there is no contact with students. How dare these people suggest things without proof? Then say I won't give names in public or private. This is buhtan. People have no problem with girls going to college and schools with male teachers.

[ummitaalib]

Bismihi ta’ala
Assalaamu ‘alaykum Warahmatullaah

Strong feelings and loyalties along with strong disagreements have led to all of us going round in circles in this thread (and in other similar threads) with misunderstandings from all sides. There is no doubt that we are all concerned. Personally I felt that for me, there was only one course of action. Alhamdulillah throughout the last couple of decades of my life I have set out on a sort of “truth-finding” mission regarding many issues which would lead to peace of mind and my having a firm conviction about these matters. Once again I decided to take this path.

I have consulted with various women, both students and in posts of position in our women’s madaaris where the ‘Aalimah courses are taught in the UK (the main ones which I am aware of as I’m sure there are many more across the country which I’m unaware of). There are two such institutions with boarding, one in Bradford and one in Lancaster. There are two more in Leicester without boarding. Then there are two part time ‘Alaimah courses in London which I know of and I think someone said there are other smaller evening classes elsewhere. During talks I was given of other such institutions and how their courses are conducted.

The following are my findings and insha Allah I pray that Allah subhaanhu wata’ala make it a means of benefit for all of us and to dispel all doubt and misconceptions.

First I had to establish what was generally taught in these courses. With a few small differences the main subjects/books covered were:

Arabic grammar (sarf/nahw and Qasasun Nabiyyeen in Arabic), Tajweed, Basics of Aqeedah, Fiqh, Islamic history and other subjects in the 1st and 2nd years.

These subjects are continued but more in depth in the 3rd year with books such as Riyaadhus Saliheen, Sharhul Wiqaayah along with some Tafseer and Hadeeth.

The final year is usually dedicated to the study of the main Hadeeth kitaabs: Ibn Majah, Nasai, Muatta Imam Maalik, Tirmidhi, Muslim, Bukhari.

This list is not in full. I’ve just mentioned the main subjects however I particularly asked about Bahisti Zewar since this book was repeatedly mentioned in the thread. Only two madrasahs covered it in the first year by female teachers. Of course it may be taught by male teachers in other than the madaaris I’ve mentioned below.

My next question was who taught these subjects (male or female) and the following is a summery.

1. Bradford: Male teachers in the last year only. All other subjects taught by females.

2. Lancaster: Male teachers in the last year only. All other subjects taught by females

3. London (Azhar): Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females.

4. London (Quwwatul Islam): Male teachers in the last two years only. All other subjects taught by females.

5. Leicester (Jamia Uloom ul Qur’an): Male teacher (Shaykh Adam Lunat (Hafizahullh) himself teaches in the last year only.
First four years taught by females only.

6. Leicester (Riyaadhus Saalihaat): Some male teachers in the last two years only (along with female teachers for some subjects).
First three years taught by females only

7. Walsall (Bilal Academy): Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females.

8. Walsall (Masjid AbuBakr) Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females

9. Birmingham (Kingsheath) Unsure but have been informed that they have female
teachers only, not yet reached advanced stages.

10. Preston: Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females

11. Blackburn Markazul Uloom: Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females

12. Bolton: Tahfeezul Quran Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females

13. Bolton: Rahmaniyyah Male teachers in the last two year only. All other subjects taught by females

14. Bradford (MMTQ): One male teacher only. All other subjects taught by females

15. Bradford (JKN): Male teacher from earlier years

I found that many masaajid (in London and other cities) run classes for women in the weekdays and many subjects are covered by women. Many halaqas and classes are run from homes by graduate ‘aalimahs. So far in the research I found that not a single place had Bahisti Zewar or Tajweed being taught by male teachers.

The next question which arose regarding male teachers is how it was set up. As mentioned before on this and various threads, all the places have mike systems and there would be either an older responsible aapa or a mehram of the male teacher who would convey questions to the teachers or would contact them in case the mike system failed.

These are my findings from talking to various students, ex-students and teachers of these institutions. I feel that people should be left to make their choices. If parents are comfortable sending their daughters to these institutions then so be it. If not, for whatever reason, then again what good will it do to discuss these matters in such a volatile manner on public forums? May Allah subhaanhua wata'ala guide us all to the path leading to His pleasure, aameen

PS all good in this is from Allah subhaanahu wata'ala and if anyone finds other than what I have said regarding the places mentioned, please do not hesitate in correcting me. I have tried to be as accurate as possible

[Taliban1]

سبحان الله

[Mathbooh]

سبحان الله

:alhamd:

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

سبحان الله

i was contemplating provoking the mods to throw me into the jail khana...i was missing u )))
by the way how are the inmates doing? whats the discussions like there?

was salam

[Taliban1]

it seems like the men in the household worry too much about Muslims outside of the home and less of the condition of those within their homes

wallahu alam

سبحان الله

يا ايها الذين امنوا قوا انفسكم و اهليكم نارا

O those who believe! Save yourselves and your families from Fire...

[Taliban1]

:salam:


i was contemplating provoking the mods to throw me into the jail khana...i was missing u )))
by the way how are the inmates doing? whats the discussions like there?

was salam

:ws:

I miss it...

Proves my point, Islah can be done by anyone, even Mods :)

:jazak:

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

:ws:

I miss it...

Proves my point, Islah can be done by anyone, even Mods :)

:jazak:

so have they had they same effect on sag and abdul qadir?
I think I need to prepare some kheer and biryani for this joyous occasion....
you should have spent the time in the jail khana to work towards a second one......
by the way did u start a ta3addud thread in the jail khana?

was salam

[Taliban1]

:salam:


so have they had they same effect on sag and abdul qadir?
I think I need to prepare some kheer and biryani for this joyous occasion....
you should have spent the time in the jail khana to work towards a second one......
by the way did u start a ta3addud thread in the jail khana?

was salam

:ws:

LOLZZZzzzzz......

Sent them a cake so they sent me out!

:)

[UmHasan]

Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, Maulana's ban and islah was carried out by male mods.

[mukhtar]

:salam:

Maulana should know that we all love and sincerely respect him;
Maulana, happy to see you back...I was worried the forum would lose its excitement :)

It would have been quite ironic if female mods hade done his "islah"....

On a serious note, I encourage myself and everyone to take these matters of disagreement in methods/ideology lightly....our love for eachother and care for the ummah should take precedence over absolutely everything else.

It is said that Ibn 'Ataaillah, the author of the Hikam (a unique book on tasawwuf) was a great opponent of his Shaykh...his reservations about tasawwuf were cleared when he heard his Shaykh explain the hadeeth of Jibreel AS on Ihsan...

It is not our job to convince people here about anything; but if we see them oppose certain things, or aspects of those things, we should not harbour hatred for them...we're all brothers/sisters and our success in deen is linked with eachother...remember that Nabee SAW talks about the Muslims being one single body...

We ask Allah for tawfeeq...

Mukhtar

[umar_italy]

Many of us do use modern technology within the limits of shariah. Yes, we are a traditional people and sometimes practical ideas need to be suggested by the laymen alongside help in implementing them but I also see the barakah in simplicity. But we use a smartboard, interactive tools, emails, forums, yahoo groups, texts, online lessons etc to communicate with sisters. What else can we do? Please lets have some more practical suggestions and also some offers to go out and help the madaaris implement these tools. Those who can't offer any of the above, can make dua profusely for the success of those doing dawah.

:salam:

Respected Aapa UmHasan.

Please be it clear that my message wasn't supposed to be a critic of our Deobandi institutions. Also, I too see the barakah in simplicity and prefer it over glitterous "events" which have no real life.

I was simply trying to analyze why Salafis appear to make larger and better use of "modern tecnologies" (which shouldn't be restricted just to making use of certain "new media" but should also pertain to the way in which they use them: consider for example the very oratory style of Zakir Naik or Amr Khaled); in my unqualified opinion that's not due to them being better, but rather it's due to them being mentally being far more compatible with "modernity" (once again, meant not just in its tecnical tools, but as a whole mindset, way of thinking/speaking/explaining, etc), since they are storically and socially a product of modernity itself.

Take the two main movements breaking the grounds in western countries: Salafis and Ikhwanis/modernists: they are so successfull because they provide the same product to which converst and second generations are respectively prone to: those who have an "hard/strong" disposition will fall in the "Salafi trap" of "Qur'an wa Sunnah"; those with a easy-going, laxist dispoition will fall in the "modernist trap" of "Islam is easy", "re-thinking the Usul", "contextualization", etc.
But except for the difference in the psychological disposition, these two movements are two sides of the same coin, and a coin which is modeled by "modernity": they both provide "rational" arguments, appeal to common knowledge, call to semplification, are anti-cultural (and the western civilization is anti-cultural par excellance), push every single Muslim to have his own "interpretation, "understanding", "scrutiny" and "judgment" directly on "proofs", etc.
And both of them couldn't have appeared without modern phenomenon as mass-literacy, spreading of economic printed books of classical texts and ahadith compilations, etc..

Taking some time to re-adapt to different scenarios is simply physiological; especially if our Deobandi re-adapting has to provide not just a "fit-in" mannerism but rather a complete "alternative" to these aspects of "modern thought" and this civilization.

[Maripat]

Many of us do use modern technology within the limits of shariah. Yes, we are a traditional people and sometimes practical ideas need to be suggested by the laymen alongside help in implementing them but I also see the barakah in simplicity. But we use a smartboard, interactive tools, emails, forums, yahoo groups, texts, online lessons etc to communicate with sisters. What else can we do? Please lets have some more practical suggestions and also some offers to go out and help the madaaris implement these tools. Those who can't offer any of the above, can make dua profusely for the success of those doing dawah.

:salam:
I make profuse duas for the same. I feel overwhelmed by some of the work mentioned in this thread and feel humbled by the efforts of all the people, especially sisters-a completely different call as compared to the keyboard activism of sinners like this miserable one. May Allah (SWT) accept their efforts, make it easy for them and help them.
Wassalam

[Maripat]

:salam:
It is not our job to convince people here about anything; but if we see them oppose certain things, or aspects of those things, we should not harbour hatred for them...we're all brothers/sisters and our success in deen is linked with eachother...remember that Nabee SAW talks about the Muslims being one single body...

We ask Allah for tawfeeq...

Mukhtar

:ws:
It is our job to make efforts to convince people about the truth but whether they will be convinced or not is up to Allah (SWT)-it is a matter of hidayah. Not to get disturbed after a failed attempt is a different matter altogether-this is a test in which we fail too often, just speaking mainly for myself really. And :jazak: again Mukhtar Sahab.
Wassalam

[mukhtar]

:ws:
It is our job to make efforts to convince people about the truth but whether they will be convinced or not is up to Allah (SWT)-it is a matter of hidayah. Not to get disturbed after a failed attempt is a different matter altogether-this is a test in which we fail too often, just speaking mainly for myself really. And :jazak: again Mukhtar Sahab.
Wassalam

Uncle Maripat.
You are correct.

:jazak: for correcting my statement.

Mukhtar

[muminah]

:salam: respected sister.

If I may ask. Have you approached senior 'ulama about these matters?
By "approached", I mean discussed openly and in detail.

Unfortunately no I haven't.


I lack time, as you do, to post on forums; I would be however interested in discussing this subject in detail, as there is much to learn from it and to share in terms of what works the best and how to determine that something is working and providing the benefit it does. We have discussed these kinds of matters with our senior mashaikh and have benefited from our studies and readings on the subject.

If you have time, I would like to open a thread in the sensitive Q&A section and request the mods to give you access to it;

I can't promise I'll have time, but inshaAllah if you open such a thread I'll try and make an effort to contribute in the discussion.

[muminah]

Ummitaalib has certainly proved that male scholars are only teaching the final two years or so. However, no one has mentioned the benefit of male teachers teaching the earlier years? Wouldn't it be really beneficial if male teachers taught the initial years too, because some have a very strong grounding in Arabic and other areas, which some female aalimas don't have (In general the teaching quality is better for male aalims). And there is a problem with quality of teaching in the earlier years for females, as newly graduates are the ones that teach the new students, it is a never ending cycle of sometimes not very good quality teaching, especially in boarding schools, where it is mostly very young (unmarried) teenage graduates who become teachers. I suppose there are a lot of underlying issues.

[Mathbooh]

:salam:

Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea, Maulana's ban and islah was carried out by male mods.

this casts light from a different angle........
to those who are advocating khilafah for woman/shaykhahs,would these khalifahs(whats the female form of 'khalifah')also have khanqahs and would they carry out the islah of males as well? if nott,why not?will they be able to give khilafah to men? have any of you found a chain of tasawwuf that has a woman as a link in the chain?
I'm just curious........weren't there woman more than capable of doing islah of others and being 'khulafah'? weren't there woman capable of giving 'khilafah'? are the woman of today more capable of being 'shuyookh' and receiving 'khilafah' and making 'islah' than 14 centuries of woman
that included the khayrul quroon?

was salam

[ImamGhazzaali]

سبحان الله

يا ايها الذين امنوا قوا انفسكم و اهليكم نارا

O those who believe! Save yourselves and your families from Fire...

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا قُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ وَأَهْلِيكُمْ نَارًا وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ عَلَيْهَا مَلَائِكَةٌ غِلَاظٌ شِدَادٌ لَّا يَعْصُونَ اللَّـهَ مَا أَمَرَهُمْ وَيَفْعَلُونَ مَا يُؤْمَرُونَ

[Juz 28, Surah 66, ayah 6]

[ummitaalib]

Ummitaalib has certainly proved that male scholars are only teaching the final two years or so. However, no one has mentioned the benefit of male teachers teaching the earlier years? Wouldn't it be really beneficial if male teachers taught the initial years too, because some have a very strong grounding in Arabic and other areas, which some female aalimas don't have (In general the teaching quality is better for male aalims). And there is a problem with quality of teaching in the earlier years for females, as newly graduates are the ones that teach the new students, it is a never ending cycle of sometimes not very good quality teaching, especially in boarding schools, where it is mostly very young (unmarried) teenage graduates who become teachers. I suppose there are a lot of underlying issues.

Assalaamu'alaykum sis mu'minah
Actually I can say for the two institutions in Leicester that the female teachers are very knowledgeable and some of the main female teachers in many cases are mahram of the Mashaikh who teach the higher kitaabs and they would be under constant guidance.

Also if the new graduates are not given the chance to begin teaching then they will never get the experience to teach the main hadeeth kitaabs. I also realised from my talks that as the years pass those female teachers of the first 3 or 4 years will insha Allah gradually move toward teaching the higher kitaabs.

[Mualimah]

In reply to the earlier thread of the many madaris, one more added to the list is madrasatul imam m.z in Bolton,
Under the instruction of hadrat yusuf motala sahib , and even in the final yr the students ara taught by mashallah female scholars only , so for the duration of the full alimayah course , the teachers are women only.

[ursis]

If you don't mind me asking what Madressa are these respected teachers graduates of? (The ones capable of teaching the final year)

[Maripat]

:salam:
(whats the female form of 'khalifah')
was salam
:salam:
Mukhalifah?
Wassalam

[London786]

sister muminah has mentioned a good point. The never ending cycle of young girls teaching the first few years. These new graduates who barely know anything themselves start teaching the lower classes. This is a major problem in all darulooms. In lancaster and Bradford many of the alimahs who have gained some experience get married and move on elsewhere. It is an almost never ending cycle. The girl daruloom system is so bad that one prominant shaykh said that some darulooms need to close their doors. The situation is very very bad to say the least. I can safely say that an average salafi girl from london who attends the local salafi halqahs will absolutely blaze an alimah.

[Maripat]

I can safely say that an average salafi girl from london who attends the local salafi halqahs will absolutely blaze an alimah.:(

[London786]

Brother I'm telling you the truth. The truth is bitter at times. See the salafi dawah is such that we can learn a thing or two. I remember almost each salafi at university would carry a mushaf in his pocket and whenever there was time they would read quraan. Many would be learning arabic and would attend classes each week. Many would read the quraan with translation. Many salafis would fast on mondays and thursdays, read the sunan azkaar from hisnul muslim, memorize surahs apart from the last 10 surahs etc. If you ever attend a salafi event you will mostly find sisters. All the sisters are pro-polygamy. There is a joke. If someone wants a wife in UK or more than 1 wife become salafi. A lot of the salafi sisters were not very interested in degrees or money etc. Compare this to the alimahs we produce? Polygamy is out of the question, they want an educated guy who will bring them money, many marry clean shaven guys and so many other issues that I can't relate on a public forum. I'm talking from direct experience and not in a biased way. The best speeches and khutabas I ever listened to were at my university delivered by salafis. We have a lot of thinking to do. Instead of bashing salafis right, left and centre we need to overcome our own shortcomings. If we do not cater for the womenfolk then can we blame them for becoming salafi? Actually some of my relatives who are salafi are amongst the most practicing females i know. A salafi auntie of mine always sends me islamic emails and none of my other relatives send me any emails of an islamic nature.

[Maripat]

Brother I'm telling you the truth. The truth is bitter at times. See the salafi dawah is such that we can learn a thing or two. I remember almost each salafi at university would carry a mushaf in his pocket and whenever there was time they would read quraan. Many would be learning arabic and would attend classes each week. Many would read the quraan with translation. Many salafis would fast on mondays and thursdays, read the sunan azkaar from hisnul muslim, memorize surahs apart from the last 10 surahs etc. If you ever attend a salafi event you will mostly find sisters. All the sisters are pro-polygamy. There is a joke. If someone wants a wife in UK or more than 1 wife become salafi. A lot of the salafi sisters were not very interested in degrees or money etc. Compare this to the alimahs we produce? Polygamy is out of the question, they want an educated guy who will bring them money, many marry clean shaven guys and so many other issues that I can't relate on a public forum. I'm talking from direct experience and not in a biased way. The best speeches and khutabas I ever listened to were at my university delivered by salafis. We have a lot of thinking to do. Instead of bashing salafis right, left and centre we need to overcome our own shortcomings. If we do not cater for the womenfolk then can we blame them for becoming salafi? Actually some of my relatives who are salafi are amongst the most practicing females i know. A salafi auntie of mine always sends me islamic emails and none of my other relatives send me any emails of an islamic nature.

:salam:
Jigar (dear) I do not doubt you in the least.
Wassalam

[London786]

don't get me wrong I'm not claiming that salafis are on the right track (well some are but definitely the madkalis are amongst the worst of people ive ever met) as they have many many faults too but there are also some good points too. I don't like this conspiracy theory of saudi petrol money as there is some basis for their strong dawah and increasing presense. As one of the mashaikh stated that our ulema started giving more preference to hadeeth after the attacks of the ahle hadeeth and major commentaries on hadeeth were compiled as a rubuttel to such attacks. In the arab world the muqaallid ulema have really let down the masses and the salafis filled a vacum.

[Talib84]

Brother I'm telling you the truth. The truth is bitter at times. See the salafi dawah is such that we can learn a thing or two. I remember almost each salafi at university would carry a mushaf in his pocket and whenever there was time they would read quraan. Many would be learning arabic and would attend classes each week. Many would read the quraan with translation. Many salafis would fast on mondays and thursdays, read the sunan azkaar from hisnul muslim, memorize surahs apart from the last 10 surahs etc. If you ever attend a salafi event you will mostly find sisters. All the sisters are pro-polygamy.

:thumbsup:

[Talib84]

don't get me wrong I'm not claiming that salafis are on the right track (well some are but definitely the madkalis are amongst the worst of people ive ever met) as they have many many faults too but there are also some good points too. .

:thumbsup:

Actually I have to thank the madkalis, as it was due to them I found sunnifourm and the answers to all my questions :)

[UmHasan]

@ Br. Umar, I did not consider it to be a criticism. I understand and agree with what you’re saying about the manner of communicating also being in need of an overhaul. The problem is, not many of the traditional scholars and da’ees know exactly how to do that, myself included as we a product of the traditional sciences we learn and are hugely influenced by them. This is why I requested practical examples, otherwise I cannot comprehend how that can be applied. I have recently started working with a group of young adults and also with the Islamic society of Muslims at the university to host discussions on campus. I have found that I have changed two things only and that is to back up as much as possible with references to Quran and hadith and to inject reference to current affairs in discussions. That seems to have appeased wary participants who are inclined towards the two groups you have mentioned. But besides that, I can’t personally think of ways to implement the changes that are required.

@ Br. Mathbooh, I don’t think any of the sisters on this thread are actually looking to introduce females shaykhahs in to the system to take bayt from; they’re just wondering about the reason why one cannot take bayt from females.

@Br. London786, please see here (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=642305#post642305).

[ummitaalib]

*sigh* we're never going to be satisfied! If male teachers teach in girls' madaaris its a problem, if female teachers teach its a problem...if women get degrees they're not proper muslimahs and if they become 'aalimahs they're pretty much useless as they're dunya inclined and any salafi sister will "blaze" them...*double sigh*...

[Aram]

Brother I'm telling you the truth. The truth is bitter at times. See the salafi dawah is such that we can learn a thing or two. I remember almost each salafi at university would carry a mushaf in his pocket and whenever there was time they would read quraan. Many would be learning arabic and would attend classes each week. Many would read the quraan with translation. Many salafis would fast on mondays and thursdays, read the sunan azkaar from hisnul muslim, memorize surahs apart from the last 10 surahs etc. If you ever attend a salafi event you will mostly find sisters. All the sisters are pro-polygamy. There is a joke. If someone wants a wife in UK or more than 1 wife become salafi. A lot of the salafi sisters were not very interested in degrees or money etc. Compare this to the alimahs we produce? Polygamy is out of the question, they want an educated guy who will bring them money, many marry clean shaven guys and so many other issues that I can't relate on a public forum. I'm talking from direct experience and not in a biased way. The best speeches and khutabas I ever listened to were at my university delivered by salafis. We have a lot of thinking to do. Instead of bashing salafis right, left and centre we need to overcome our own shortcomings. If we do not cater for the womenfolk then can we blame them for becoming salafi? Actually some of my relatives who are salafi are amongst the most practicing females i know. A salafi auntie of mine always sends me islamic emails and none of my other relatives send me any emails of an islamic nature.

I don't think this is a problem with darul ulooms as such

i think the problem is that most aalimahs and aalims are pushed into doing the courses by their families. Most aalims and aalimah's come from families where it is common for them to follow this path

the salafis on the other hand are usually those people who turn to deen themselves without pressure from family so their hearts are more attached to it sometimes and so they try harder in following the rules or Islam

Having said that i have been around salafis mostly and only a handful of sisters are wiling to accept polygamy out of them

and while this thread is related to tasawwuf when it comes to knowledge of deen they may have quite a lot but when it comes to manners and dealing with people its not so great

and majority of the salafi sisters attend mixed lectures where they are taught by men!

[abuhajira]

:salam:

I would like Br. London786 and Colonol Hardstone to retract their comments/claims about females being taught Bahishti Zewar etc in madaris. Khala Umm Taalib's post is more than sufficient to believe that your'll statements were incorrect representation of the facts.

:ws:

[London786]

I did not make any claims about behesti zewar. I just mentioned that most of the girls who teach it are not capable of even teaching such books properly due to their weakness primarily in tarbiyah and secondly academically.

[London786]

sister aram, Majority of salafi sisters attend mixed lectures? I can't remember seeing this very often unless this is something new. Also we need to understand that salafis come in all shapes and sizes so maybe you came across the al-maghrib, al kauthar types? Yes many lectures are done by men but there is strict segregation in the majority of cases. Maybe some salafis dont practice strict segregation but the madkali, jihadi, or the students of ibn baz etc certainly do. They are amongst the strongest propoenents of the niqab along with DEOBANDIS. The segregation practiced by salafis is far superior to any other group excluding the deobandis who Mashallah do a good job in this regard. Salafi sisters are definitely more receptive to polygamy especially the madkhalis and somalis (but with regards to somalis it is more of a cultural thing). With regards to the aklaaq of salafi sisters then yes if they follow their male counterparts I would imagine they do not excel in this field.

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

the biggest worry and oncern,from where im standing is the lack of tarbiyyah, and lack of inclination to adopt deen, as something of great worry from the male and female graduates from both part time and full time alim/alimah courses.

Like London, i dont want to go into specifics as its too damn depressing, but there is a big disinclination to deen as a whole in a majority of graduates,both male and female.

Where im from, its nothing new now to hear of young graduates,male and female either going out with the opposite sex as bf and gf or,in the very least, having inappropriate contacts with them.

I cannot tell you my shock when i first attended a wedding several years ago of one of my extended family,who is a alimah. I went to the masjiod for the nikah and when the groom was pointed out, my spiritual condition took a nosedive. the guy was completely clean shaven, and here was,marrying a alimah who had gone to a full time darul uloom.........

I have since witnessed many such nikahs.

As I said, tarbiyyah,inclination to deen,making effort for deen,any effort,is severly lacking in our young graduates. Teaching in a maktab is seen as easy money and not taken seriously.

Part time alimah courses is something i am very much against. the very notion of doing 3 hours a day,for 3 years only and then qualifying as a alimah..............and trust me,what these alimahs get up to is giving a seriously bad name to those alimah who are sincere.

the deobandi conveyor belt menatlity has destroyed the quality and yes we may have hundres of these alims/alimahs, the quality is severely lacking.

[Aram]

sister aram, Majority of salafi sisters attend mixed lectures? I can't remember seeing this very often unless this is something new. Also we need to understand that salafis come in all shapes and sizes so maybe you came across the al-maghrib, al kauthar types? Yes many lectures are done by men but there is strict segregation in the majority of cases. Maybe some salafis dont practice strict segregation but the madkali, jihadi, or the students of ibn baz etc certainly do. They are amongst the strongest propoenents of the niqab along with DEOBANDIS. The segregation practiced by salafis is far superior to any other group excluding the deobandis who Mashallah do a good job in this regard. Salafi sisters are definitely more receptive to polygamy especially the madkhalis and somalis (but with regards to somalis it is more of a cultural thing). With regards to the aklaaq of salafi sisters then yes if they follow their male counterparts I would imagine they do not excel in this field.

Most of the salafi girls learn their deen in lectures within university's, these lectures are for the most part all in one room with brothers to the front of the room and sisters to the back but no pardah in between, other sisters attend almaghrib courses etc which have the same kind of "segregation"

The only salafi institute i know of which is quite strict in its segregation is probably tayyibun institute, they have quite a few female shaykhas mashaAllah

As for the other salafi events there is a lot of fitnah in these events, its one of those places you often hear the sisters making remarks about brother x y and z being soo "MashaAllah" and the shaykh /da'ee being sooo amazing

institutes such as al-kawthar and al-maghrib are known for people going to look for marriage partners etc

yes somali women accept polygamy more because of the culture they were brought up in, it doesn't have much to do with them being salafi as i believe a lot of them are actually shafi'i in fiqh, some converts also are quite open to polygamy, but many salafi sisters are just as opposed to it as any other woman, not because they believe its not a sunnah but they just say they can't cope with it

[abuhajira]

:salam:

I would like to ask, how many of us from UK here have made proper intention to make their sons into a proper behaving aalim, and daughters into a proper intellectual Alima. What measures have been taken to achieve that intention so far?

Next question would be how many are willing for their sons and daughters to spend +/- 8 years in a Madrasah while keeping a close loving view on them so that they can become the caretaker of the society while earning only minimum wage and in case of females not even that, instead of earning some flashy degree at the university.

:ws:

[mercyofAllah]

Bismillah
:salam:
I think if women of deobandi are more family attached and they set the priority to the obedience to the husbands and women as such are more influenced by men, then it rests on men to educate them regarding polygamy. If salafi sisters are more into polygamy, then that shows their men have good interest in that and thus influence their women. How many men among deobandis are interested in polygamy themselves so their women are molded for that? I don't hate salafis for I know there are sincere, religious, ulema who speak haq and even the shuhada among them.
I think men being the leaders, it is they who have to set things right and not keep blaming the women for I see the deeni women more obedient to their men and so I think it is men who should take more responsibility. If they themselves are not interested in polygamy, we can't talk about sisters. Right in this forum, where women speak less, it is men who bring more of the issues of polygamy like justice, so and so sheikh didn't encourage and so on when things are entirely different and the advice is specific to certain individuals. Allahu alam.

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

As I have pointed out on many occasions here, that local courses,based in the masajid should be the way to go. where the arab style of taking a book, and then going through it on a said topic.

The proble for me,in our communities, the only way to learn structured knowledge is by going to darul uloom. This is a big issue for those people who do not have the luxery of freeing up such time full time.

I see great pressure on these young kids of18-21 who graduate as alims/alimahs, and then they are expected to be super duper pious due to simply gaining the knowledge. We know it does work like that,yet we expect these young graduates to be like that. its not fair on them. to wear a crown of alim/alimah when you are 18-21, and have thay heavy burden and expectation is very hard on these young kids. Most of these kids still are friends with people who are not deeni inclined and thus,peer pressure has a huge impact.

again,what i know is not fit for public consumption of a internet forum,yet we need to accept fully,that there are huge problems in the system.

our darul ulooms are not dumping grounds where parents just dump their kids who are out of control. this attitude is also having a detrimental effect on the institutions. Forcing kids to go darul uloom,wether by physical force or psychologically is also doing great harm.

[Aram]

I don't think people should be blaming darululoom's or the aalim/aalimah course for lack of tarbiyyah within people. I think sometimes parents leave all the tarbiyyah of their children to the darululoom and want them to do the tarbiyyah instead. Now im pretty sure these madrassahs have not taught the aalim and aalimahs bad manners, they have not taught them to marry clean shaven men etc

Why would an aalimah's father agree to have his daughter marry a clean shaven man?

again within deobandi families the fathers spend a lot of time in tabligh and at madrassahs teaching other people about tarbiyyah whilst neglecting their own family

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

My children will only go down the route of alim/alimah if they choose to do so. my main concern is tarbiyyah and that a love of deen,inclination for deen is developed in them. after that, it will up to them.

I speaking to a dear friend of mine,a tablighi,who has teenage children,asking advice on tarbiyyah. He told me bhai, the biggest thing you've got to make effort on is to make the children inclined towards deen and make them attached to deen with love,affection and mercy. He said if you force it down them,they will rebel. yes,I know some Tablighis have been guilty of that, enforcing deen down their children and thus you see their kids rebelling.

Alhamdulillah, me and wife try to do the tarbiyyah of my kids in such a way where alhamdulillah, even my kids do my islah!!!

[abuhajira]

:salam:

The basic Islah and Tarbiya being discussed occurs from different cradles. The first cradle is the mother's lap and father's arms. So if your child starts to use foul language, dont blame the times blame the environment you have made in the house. When the child misbehaves in public, it reflects the tarbiya he/she has been given in private.

When the madrasah comes, I can attest to my observation that sometime the most obedient and muttabi' sunnah students get ruined when they get their home company which is contrary to the sunnah environment. They hang out with their buddies back home and get the filth into madaris. Its not like Madrasah are the only way of scanning the viruses. The home environment can work as a very potent firewall and VirusSheild retaining the hayaa and adab they learn from their teachers and books, and see its practicality in atleast a few of the teachers if not all.

:ws:

[mercyofAllah]

Bismillah
I too think it is too generalization here about marrying clean shaven men. Those who are of deeni among salafi or deobandi, I think they would prefer a deeni men and so the beard comes along with it. I somehow feel too much of generalization here for there are different types of people in every gp. Some gp set priority to something and some to the other. So we can't put down a gp entirely. Allahu alam.

[abuhajira]

:salam:

My children will only go down the route of alim/alimah if they choose to do so. my main concern is tarbiyyah and that a love of deen,inclination for deen is developed in them. after that, it will up to them.

I speaking to a dear friend of mine,a tablighi,who has teenage children,asking advice on tarbiyyah. He told me bhai, the biggest thing you've got to make effort on is to make the children inclined towards deen and make them attached to deen with love,affection and mercy. He said if you force it down them,they will rebel. yes,I know some Tablighis have been guilty of that, enforcing deen down their children and thus you see their kids rebelling.

Alhamdulillah, me and wife try to do the tarbiyyah of my kids in such a way where alhamdulillah, even my kids do my islah!!!

:salam:

by why not sacrifice their choice for the betterment of community/ummah? (the question is in general..not really directed to you)

:ws:

[ENIGMA]

I don't think people should be blaming darululoom's or the aalim/aalimah course for lack of tarbiyyah within people. I think sometimes parents leave all the tarbiyyah of their children to the darululoom and want them to do the tarbiyyah instead. Now im pretty sure these madrassahs have not taught the aalim and aalimahs bad manners, they have not taught them to marry clean shaven men etc

Why would an aalimah's father agree to have his daughter marry a clean shaven man?

again within deobandi families the fathers spend a lot of time in tabligh and at madrassahs teaching other people about tarbiyyah whilst neglecting their own family

100% agree. parents have a mssive role. you are right, parents have this attitude where darul uloom/maktab will do the tarbiyah whereas that is wrong. a local alim always says from the mimbar that you children are in maktab for 2 hours a day only. we cannot do the tarbiyyah. they are with you most of the time. tarbiyyah is your(parents) responsibility.

unfortuantely.indo/pak family structures are very much domineering and authoratarian and thus it does lots of damage.

as i say to my wife, we need to be friends with our children,to such a level that they will confide in us everything. Until this authoratarian attitude still prevails, parents and children will always be distant.

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

by why not sacrifice their choice for the betterment of community/ummah?

:ws:

many alimas and alimahs,who were forced to go to darul ulooms. i dont see them benefitting anyone. not themselves and not the community. I know more than ive got fingers who were forced Hazrat. They are nowhere to be seen.

Like said hazrat, not for public consumption on a internet forum. Truly depressing.

[ENIGMA]

Bismillah
I too think it is too generalization here about marrying clean shaven men. Those who are of deeni among salafi or deobandi, I think they would prefer a deeni men and so the beard comes along with it. I somehow feel too much of generalization here for there are different types of people in every gp. Some gp set priority to something and some to the other. So we can't put down a gp entirely. Allahu alam.

as i said, what i know of,in terms of numbers, and the whole situation is not fit for public consumption. unless you want to get depressed.

[muminah]

Engima: Do teach your children Qur'anic Arabic, so that they can understand the Qur'an, and from that you will see a real change in your children. Despite all my hesitations with the 'aalima system in the UK, I would still like my children to cover most of the books that are taught in 'aalima classes. Whether I send them to a local aalim/a institution, I don't know but I would never send them to a boarding school.

[mercyofAllah]

as i said, what i know of,in terms of numbers, and the whole situation is not fit for public consumption. unless you want to get depressed.

Bismillah
I normally do see things in the positive light and move on. Generally what I observe is many youths have become deeni and the elders of my house say that it was not like that before and now wherever they turn they are seeing more namazis. I am happy about that and things wont change over night. People are striving their best to keep up the deen be it from ulema side or on individual level and this indeed is a great blessing and mercy from Allah SWT in times of fitna. Allahu alam.

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

you see,maybe even up to a few years ago,a alim/alima,even though they may not have been academically gifted,understood and realised that they had a responsibility to atleast on the external, to be religeous and to be wary of what they did. So although a alim/alimah may not have excelled in their studies,they were religeously inclined, punctual on their salah,the external as beard,niqab etc. so atleast in public, it did not cause fitna. what people do in private is their choice, and we are not allowed to spy. so if a alim/alima were drinking alcohol in private,where no one knew,yet externally they were religeous etc, it would not cause fitna in the society.

unfortunately, things are now being done openly,by alims and alimahS, which is causing fitna,strife and causing a severe dent in confidence in the general public.

what peple do in private,where no one knows, thats up to them. So if alims/alimahs are dating,in such privacy where no one knows, except them, then its wrong but the destruction and harm is limited to them only. when the sin is committed openly, the society and community suffer.

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

its now a running joke in my city of what these alimahs are up to,both the graduates from these part time alimah courses and those that are studying there. I wont even go in the academic side but the tarbiyyah is non existant. dating by these alimahs/student alimahs is common, amongst other things.

[London786]

This point is a very good 1 by enigma. See there is less of a problem of sins because these can be committed. The major problem is that there seems to be no shouq (zeal) for deen. I mean I've come across very very jahil people but they would want to marry a religious girl because they want a good upbringing for their children. On the other hand you get these alimahs who marry clean shaven guys who don't even pray. In the case of some pakistanis like mirpuris these are forced marriages to cousins in which case I blame the parents 100%. However in the case of gujratis it is mostly these girls whose mentality is very jahil and they have no regard for deen. If it was one or 2 cases I would understand but there is a serious epidemic. I can say a lot lot more but it is not fit for a public forum.

[ummitaalib]

I cant help but add....with the fadl of Allah subhaanhu wata'ala I have 3 UK graduates in my immediate family, all from different madrasahs. I feel most fortunate after reading some of the comments as I do not see what is mentioned here. I see devotion to khidmat and practice of Deen, disinclination to the dunya and fikr for their islah as all of them have islahi ta'alluk with their mashaikh. I also know a few girls who are students or have graduated iin the last few years and Alhamdulillah these young people are an inspiration!

[Aram]

This point is a very good 1 by enigma. See there is less of a problem of sins because these can be committed. The major problem is that there seems to be no shouq (zeal) for deen. I mean I've come across very very jahil people but they would want to marry a religious girl because they want a good upbringing for their children. On the other hand you get these alimahs who marry clean shaven guys who don't even pray. In the case of some pakistanis like mirpuris these are forced marriages to cousins in which case I blame the parents 100%. However in the case of gujratis it is mostly these girls whose mentality is very jahil and they have no regard for deen. If it was one or 2 cases I would understand but there is a serious epidemic. I can say a lot lot more but it is not fit for a public forum.

since the topic is about islah do you know if any of these aalimahs have islahi talluq with shaykhs?

[ENIGMA]

I know you guys think im bias,which maybe I am, but my wife informs me that those alimahs who end up marrying tablighi's, she has seen a vast difference in these alimahs after. they become more inclined to deen and alot,via masturaat effort, become strong in their deen as a avenue is provided for them to do so. She knows these young grads who, were once walking in high heels,perfume and lots of it etc have now,after marrying a tablighi, have actually become stronger in their deen and thats by choice as her husband being in TJ provided that avenue of tarbiyyah.

Most of these alimahs i dare say do want to be closer to deen, yet before marriage, the peer pressure in immense so they err.

[London786]

With regards to Abu Hajira saabs's question well my children are young but it is my desire that they shall become ulemah and huffaz inshallah however I will be very careful in what steps I take. I shall personally myself take them to visit mashaikh, take them tabligh and send them to some Sunniforumers for ilm and islaah. I will not allow them to board at an early age and would be willing to re-locate to an area where they can study. I shall inshallah carry on working like a dog if I have to but make sure they do khidmat of deen and do not need to worry about expenses. I am making some plans in this regard like business etc but all is in the hands of ALLAH. I will not send them to Darulooms for boarding and they will learn the whole syllabus privately inshallah from various family members and friends and other scholars. When they get mature then they can go boarding etc. I will continously make dua for them and ask everybody to make dua for them also. I agree with you there is no point in criticizing if one does not try to make changes themselves. I have also spoken to a close ustadh of mine who has agreed to listen to a detailed critique of the current system and I have gathered some solutions from various sources. In the very near future I shall write and email all the various madrasahs and ask for feedback. At the end it is in the hands of ALLAH and we ask for tawfeeq ameen.

[mercyofAllah]

I know you guys think im bias,which maybe I am, but my wife informs me that those alimahs who end up marrying tablighi's, she has seen a vast difference in these alimahs after. they become more inclined to deen and alot,via masturaat effort, become strong in their deen as a avenue is provided for them to do so. She knows these young grads who, were once walking in high heels,perfume and lots of it etc have now,after marrying a tablighi, have actually become stronger in their deen and thats by choice as her husband being in TJ provided that avenue of tarbiyyah.

Most of these alimahs i dare say do want to be closer to deen, yet before marriage, the peer pressure in immense so they err.

Bismillah
Actually not just tableeghis, normally men have more influence on their women and so is the case with deen. I can understand that wives getting influenced by tableeghi bothers as generally I see the level of taqwa in tableeghis is high Alhamdulillah. It comes down to how much men are stronger in deen and I have seen this among ahl-ehadeeth or salafi people too. Allahu alam. Khair

[ENIGMA]

:salam:

hazrat london sahib, you know who I am and my family connections............... ive seen the alimahs marry clean shaven guys on the last few marraige occasions. The first one really knocked me back. It took me aaaaages to get my bearings together and to understand that the alimah was marrying a clean shaven non religeous guy.

and you know what, its a decpetion to think she will change him as ive seen the opposite. the alimah in full niqab,jubba etc leaving everything a few years later........................utterly depressing.

Another dear friend,another Tablighi(LOL) told me some time ago,' your wife is how YOU want her to be'.

[London786]

with regards to the question of islaahi taaluq then yes some alimahs are bait to mashaikh but it is more of a barakah relationship. They take bait with hazrat x without even understanding what it is and what they are supposed to do (except they get a mamolaat sheet). They dont keep contact with hazrat x and thats the end of the story.

[ENIGMA]

you know what, you can criticise tablighi's and yes we do deserve it in some cases, but i'll tell you something, if a alimah wants her deen to be preserved, you wont go much wrong if you marry a ACTIVE tablighi. quite a few of the young female grads do end up marrying tablighis and thus, if anything, outward is preserved for these alimahs.

my wife knows alimahs who DO NOT want to marry tablighis for said reason, that they do not like the certain aspects of taqwa which marrying a tablighi will bring....................that tells you everything.

[London786]

Yes, Enigma each time I go to a wedding of an alimah and I find out the guy is a clean shaven person who does not pray salah I feel very sad as it shows the mentality. See sinning can be cured but the mentality takes a long time to change.

[Aram]

with regards to the question of islaahi taaluq then yes some alimahs are bait to mashaikh but it is more of a barakah relationship. They take bait with hazrat x without even understanding what it is and what they are supposed to do (except they get a mamolaat sheet). They dont keep contact with hazrat x and thats the end of the story.

I don't know of many aalimahs who have proper islaahi talluq, some of them may have given bayat during their studies but a lot of them do not keep in contact

the topic we are discussing is women being bayat to men yet their behaviour is still bad

i think people are just assuming that these aalimahs or sisters in general have islahi talluq with shaykhs yet the ones that go off the rails usually don't keep contact with their shaykhs so it can't be said that it is a failure for women to be bayat to male shaykhs

i think you will notice a huge difference in sisters who take their islah seriously and turn to their shaykhs for advice and guidance compared to those who do not

[ENIGMA]

Yes, Enigma each time I go to a wedding of an alimah and I find out the guy is a clean shaven person who does not pray salah I feel very sad as it shows the mentality. See sinning can be cured but the mentality takes a long time to change.

now you tell me honestly, will her deen be preserved with such a guy? i know of more times than i can remember of such alimahs marrying such persons and evetually,niqab is gone,jubba is gone, salah is gone etc etc..................

[London786]

enigma u hit the mark 100%. See the mentality is the problem. Many of these girls would not want to marry a tablighi because he is too hardcore, his beard looks funky (that could be kufr) and because he is less educated etc. I mean 2 of my friends have separately told me that they went to see some alimahs and the girls main concern was not deen etc but a nice degree/job. 1 guy was rejected because he did not have a degree and the girl saw it that he could not provide for her (even though he had a perfectly halal job as a driver and was earning sufficient money and had saved up a lot of money). I mean the whole fikr is for dunya, shopping, ease, social status etc and almost zero tawajuh towards akirah.

[ENIGMA]

enigma u hit the mark 100%. See the mentality is the problem. Many of these girls would not want to marry a tablighi because he is too hardcore, his beard looks funky (that could be kufr) and because he is less educated etc. I mean 2 of my friends have separately told me that they went to see some alimahs and the girls main concern was not deen etc but a nice degree/job. 1 guy was rejected because he did not have a degree and the girl saw it that he could not provide for her (even though he had a perfectly halal job as a driver and was earning sufficient money and had saved up a lot of money). I mean the whole fikr is for dunya, shopping, ease, social status etc and almost zero tawajuh towards akirah.

bang on the money hazrat.

They want the yearly holidays,they want the latest fashion trends etc. and tablighis are siday saday logh.......LOL ;)

im not saying dont do the above as I know saathis that do, but to base a marriage on that is the problem. mentality.

They compromise on their deen and what happens next is then no mystery. niqab will go as the husband will apply psychogical pressure as he himself feels uncomfortable walking in public clean shaven in jeans and his wife in niqab...................

[mercyofAllah]

Bismillah
There are deeni and be-deeni among men and also women. I know men who plainly reject women bcos they wear hijab or niqab. Khair i see this thread is totally de-railing and the thread is sort of more focused in bringing bad things of one particular gender when things can be said the same on the other side and no I am not encouraging here to talk of evils of men here or any muslim and what I am requesting is we should have proper intention of improving the situation and I dont know how this individual experience with some men or women will help. I have heard in a bayan that publicly the negativity in excess should not be brought for that can bring down the psychology of whole ummah and it is quite dangerous. Till the qayamat, there will be always a group of truthful people and we are commanded to join with them and these people should be brought out so we see positive light. Please refrain from throwing the ummah in the bad light as if there are only bad people around. Yes there should be constructive criticism but that should e carried out with wisdom and in a positive sense and I feel this thread is more like just complaints after complaints and as if there are only evil people around. This is quite shame. Allahu alam

[UmHasan]

:jazak: to all those who have successfully managed to discredit all aalimahs with their sweeping and judgmental statements. I pray that you will ensure that the women of your own household- wives, daughters and sisters - will go out and seek knowledge and gain proper tarbiyyah and marry men who will allow them to continue practising and teaching afterwards and fill the gap that you say that the ulamah have not been able to fulfill. I pray that Allah uses your criticisms and concerns to provide solutions from amongst your own households.

I hope you all enjoyed the gossip. =)

Brother enigma, you are so upset when the same sweeping statements are made about TJ, but in the next breath you return to the forum to do the same about madaaris. I fail to understand.

[ENIGMA]

:jazak: to all those who have successfully managed to discredit all aalimahs with their sweeping and judgmental statements. I pray that you will ensure that the women of your own household- wives, daughters and sisters - will go out and seek knowledge and gain proper tarbiyyah and marry men who will allow them to continue practising and teaching afterwards and fill the gap that you say that the ulamah have not been able to fulfill. I pray that Allah uses your criticisms and concerns to provide solutions from amongst your own households.

Brother enigma, you are so upset when the same sweeping statements are made about TJ, but in the next breath you return to the forum to do the same about madaaris. I fail to understand.

nice try but I won't rise to the bait. I can be and have been critical of TJ and do not bury my head in the sand when clear issues are raised. My main concern for my children is that they are religeously inclined and have a real zeal for deen. them being alim/alimah is not really a concern of mine.

umhasan, would you like me drag up your posts where the threads were DELETED/CLOSED due to 'your elders' being criticised.

im regretting it already posting here.

umhasan,do you atleast acknowledge the issues I have raised?

and ive not even started on the academic side of things in darul ulooms.......and i dont intend to either.

My main concern is and was lack of tarbiyyah in these institutes,especially when a alim/alimah is doign a 5-6 year full time course,in boarding and yet still they come out with opposite mentality.

like brother london said, sins are committed by all, and inshallah over time and with age, the sins of lustful youth go. the mentality and attitude is something harder to shift.

[ENIGMA]

a request to the mods: (as i know several are here posting,reading)

can my ID be completely deleted from sunniforum please. so as no trace of me is left on here and all my posts are deleted.

yes,this is a formal request to cancel fully my ID,USERNAME,POSTS.

can someone please email me when its done. :jazak:


and no,im not throwing my toys out of the pram. i made the request in private some time ago but its not been followed up.

[UmHasan]

I also think all the gossiping on what aalims and aalimahs do was a bad idea. Maybe those who have written can evaluate their posts and see whether they are of any benefit at all besides providing a bit of sweet gossip. I can see some have frustrations that they wish to vent in public but it is an honest question when I ask what the intention was when providing all this information and speculation?

[ENIGMA]

I also think all the gossiping on what aalims and aalimahs do was a bad idea. Maybe those who have written can evaluate their posts and see whether they are of any benefit at all besides providing a bit of sweet gossip. I can see some have frustrations that they wish to vent in public but it is an honest question when I ask what the intention was when providing all this information and speculation?

the institutions are failing,both academically and tarbiyyah wise. both mens and womens. and yet we have our rose tinted specs telling us its all ok. I know of people,who are connected to said institutes,who have raised the issues and you know what,even though the institutes accept the failings, they wont change. too much hassle and will lose money.


like it or not,alims and alimahs have a status in our society,and they are failing us miserably. If i wanted to stir gossip, i would have provided so much more stuff to really cause damage. Not my intention,never was,never has been.

[UmHasan]

Yes, I can see you are very angry about the whole aalimah situation and that your valid concerns are causing much dissatidfaction. I pray that Allah enables you, me and all of us to channel these frustrations in the correct manner and become the solution to the problem.

ps. I have not ever deleted posts or threads where 'my' elders were being criticised. I have taken part in the discussions and tried to provide balance with my own views, thats all. Besides, when you were making those statements, you refused to call them 'criticism' now thats what you call them yourself. I will however, close this thread unashamedly, as you have failed to provide a sincere reason for posting and the gossiping is providing no purpose. I was actually looking forward to some of the constructive criticism and sincere, helpful advice that was being contributed by members such as Br. Umar, and its a shame the thread has changed direction today.

No doubt, another aalim-bashing, aalimah-bashing, UK ulamah-bashing, madaaris-bashing thread will resurface again at some point in the future and everyone will provide more of their own weighty views, but lets put an end to this one.