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bugmenot
13-09-2011, 09:39 AM
:salam:

The Tijani order, famous in Africa, has got in its daily wird a certain du'a called "jawharat-ul-kamal" whose wordings, we are convinced, are not right. This du'a is supposed to be even more rewarding than Salat Al-fatih, another du'a trademark of this order, which is not the subject here please.

Can any scholar or learned one say if these wordings are wrong or not according to shari'ah :

اللهم صل وسلم على عين الرحمة الربانية والياقوتة المتحققة الحائطة بمركز الفهوم والمعاني ونور الأكوان المتكونة الآدمي صاحب الحق الرباني البرق الأسطع بمزون الأرباح المالئة لكل متعرض من البحور والأواني ونورك اللامع الذي ملأت به كونك الحائط بأمكنة المكاني اللهم صل وسلم على عين الحق التي تتجلى منها عروش الحقائق عين المعارف الأقوم صراطك التام اللهم صل وسلم على طلعة الحق بالحق الكنز الأعظم افاضتك منك اليك احاطة النور المطلسم صلى الله عليه وعلى آله صلاة تعرفنا بها اياه

O Allah, bestow your benedictions and your peace upon the source of the divine mercy and
the veritable diamond that is enclosed in the citadel of every understanding and meaning
and the light of the creatures becoming human beings, the owner of the lordly truth, the
brightest flash of lightning going through the beneficial rain clouds that fills every water
channels, vast oceans and smaller, and your shining light which fills the existence and
encompasses every place.

My humble advice to my brothers around the world is to avoid any du'a that has some ambiguous words, and never rely on "visions" you might get.

May Allah guide us on true tawhid, aameen.

:ws:

ENIGMA
13-09-2011, 11:41 AM
:ws:


:hawla:
I did not know two threads would suffice to you to label me as such.
Anyways thanks for the mocking, appreciated.

Now if you don't have information to provide on this subject, you are free to remain silent.

sorry bruv, i'll delete my original comment.

apologies.

mukhtar
13-09-2011, 12:14 PM
:salam:

whose wordings, we are convinced, are not right. This du'a is supposed to be even more rewarding than Salat Al-fatih, another du'a trademark of this order, which is not the subject here please.

Can any scholar or learned one say if these wordings are wrong or not according to shari'ah :


May Allah guide us on true tawhid, aameen.

:ws:

:salam: respected brother. Hope you are well.

Are you a scholar?
If you are not one, it would be advisable for you to make a sincere tawba for what you have written...
Your words that I've left in the quote, imply many things...

The bolded part implies that reading the du'a amounts to Shirk.
Does you or anyone else have a confusion about the meaning of "Shirk".

Forgive me for not having much time to explain to you matters, but if you write to me in private and are well intentioned in your attempt to understand, I can attempt to explain to you in words you can understand.

May Allah Ta'alaa protect both you and I from false accusations of any sort, and especially those of Shirk...the warning of Nabee SAW about the matter is such that it makes someone who has understood the reality of Imaan and Kufr shiver.

With love and affection.

Mukhtar

bugmenot
13-09-2011, 02:48 PM
:ws:, :alhamd: I am fine, hope the same for you.

You got it wrong nowhere did I imply that but if you want the full story : I just witnessed possession cases from Africans (who by the way happen to be tijani and reading this du'a), with some engaged in evident shirk (not related to the du'a); and according to the 'Aamil treating them (he's got his proofs which I'm not going to present here) this jawharat-ul-kamal is highly suspicious especially the underlined portion.
In short, my writing skills are not structured thus my ending du'a is unrelated to the jawharat al kamal.

But although I've got my opinion on the jawharat I'm waiting for a shar'i ruling on it to potentially warn brothers.

:jazak:

mukhtar
13-09-2011, 03:08 PM
:ws:, :alhamd: I am fine, hope the same for you.

You got it wrong nowhere did I imply that

In short, my writing skills are not structured thus my ending du'a is unrelated to the jawharat al kamal.

But although I've got my opinion on the jawharat I'm waiting for a shar'i ruling on it to warn our brothers.

:jazak:

:salam:

We ask Allah Ta'alaa to make every action of ours for His sake, our writing, talking, as well as our silence...

What you wrote above as an explanation is senseless.

It is not my habit or desire to be harsh.
Anyone who reads your two posts will see that you are incoherent, it would have been appropriate for you to take a step back and delete your post or humbly ask for an explanation.

Here is one proof to encourage you towards caution-there is no need, neither do I honestly have enough time available to give you a detailed Shari'a explanation; if you are not a scholar, you can not understand the explanation; but you may ponder over this:

Hazrat Sheikh (Maulana Zakariyyah) RA, when compiling Awjazul Masalik for the first time, was in Egypt, and he used to spend a good portion of his time as the guest of Sh Muhammad Al Hafiz Al Misri, who is a major Egyptian Tijani 'aalim who passed away in the early 80s-he was a muhaddith. When over at his place, Hazrat Sheikh RA and Ml Abdul Hafeez Makki (who related this story to me in Makka Mukarramah a little less than a year ago), used to make muzaakara with him about tasawwuf and hadith.

If we accept what you say about the Jawharatul Kamal, then Hazrat Sheikh has been hypocritical in his attitude and associated with a person involved in Shirk. If we go further and use the rulings of the fuqaha, it is known that "Satisfaction with kufr is kufr". So Hazrat Sheikh was satisfied with the Shirk of this person, since he spend time with him and made muzaakara of tasawwuf and hadith...

I will let you chose what the conclusion about Hazrat Sheikh RA is....

Tell the 'Aamil who finds the Jawharatul Kamal suspicious, that all he has to do to protect himself from that suspicion, is to avoid reading it. You may suggest to him to review the writings of the 'ulama on falsely accusing someone of Shirk...


Mukhtar

bugmenot
13-09-2011, 04:29 PM
:ws:

I'm only asking scholars or learned ones if they find anything wrong with this du'a, if you're not either of these then your entry is not useful to my thread.

I'm in no mood of debating, if you didn't get my senseless post I cannot help you understand it.
But you are free to open another thread about "Bugmenot's senseless posts and ferocious attack of my tariqa" I'll be glad not to participate; I just hate when we go off-topic so please open a new thread about my post but not here. If a du'a that asks Allah to grant us understanding of tawheed itches you I cannot help you, neither if you think my du'a implies that anybody reciting jawharat is committing open shirk. In fact you should gladly say aameen, just like your du'a does not imply I'm not doing everything for His sake or...

Your story about Shaykh Zakariya (:rahim:) is fascinating but I don't know what this has to do here; people also use this sort of arguments to prove Deobandis 'ulama endorsed Shaykh Muhammad 'alawi's work (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?53234-Beliefs-of-Muhammad-ibn-Alawi-Maliki-and-the-scholars-of-Deoband) because the latter praised the former's Awjaz al-Masalik ila Muwatta’ Imam Malik and that they met each other.

The 'Aamil is himself from Maliki tradition and knows arabic & islamic stuffs more than me, he needs not advices from a poor guy like me.

mukhtar
13-09-2011, 04:49 PM
:ws:

I'm only asking scholars or learned ones if they find anything wrong with this du'a, if you're not either of these then your entry is not useful to my thread.


The 'Aamil is himself from Maliki tradition and knows arabic & islamic stuffs more than me, he needs not advices from a poor guy like me.

Brother budgmenot,

Let's keep it to this in shaa Allah; if the 'ulama on the forum participate on the thread, I will reply to them in shaa Allah. If any of them find something wrong with Jawhratul Kamal, we will be happy to refute them politely and firmly.

You have not asked if there was sth wrong with the du'a, you affirmed that there was something wrong, and needed further proof for your assumption, so you asked the learned ones to assist you in finding such proof. You should have first asked yourself if your knowledge or understanding was maybe limited. You then showed that your intelligence is highly deficient through your contradicting posts. We ask Allah Ta'alaa to grant us and you intelligence and foresight.

Ask a secondary school student (14 to 16yrs old) to read your post and explain to you what you wrote.

May Allah Ta'alaa make you the means of freeing many people from Shirk.


Mukhtar

P.S: THE FACT THAT THE THREAD ABOUT SH MUHAMMAD ALAWI AL MALIKI WAS NOT DELETED DESERVES ATTENTION FROM THE MODS.

bugmenot
13-09-2011, 05:50 PM
I am convinced there is something wrong with the du'a, but I do not pass a fatwa, so until I do not have any solid backing from scholars I agree that my opinion is of no value. How hard is it to understand? Even primary school students (6 to 10yrs old here) would get it.
Even if I erred in my explications why do you persist in your off-topic comments ? As I said open a new thread & don't pollute the thread.
And indeed my intelligence is deficient, may be as deficient as your knowledge of the forum since you did not notice that the one who started the thread on Sh Muhammad Alawi Al-Maliki is a moderator !

TripolySunni
13-09-2011, 07:17 PM
Can any scholar or learned one say if these wordings are wrong or not according to shari'ah :

اللهم صل وسلم على عين الرحمة الربانية والياقوتة المتحققة الحائطة بمركز الفهوم والمعاني ونور الأكوان المتكونة الآدمي صاحب الحق الرباني البرق الأسطع بمزون الأرباح المالئة لكل متعرض من البحور والأواني ونورك اللامع الذي ملأت به كونك الحائط بأمكنة المكاني اللهم صل وسلم على عين الحق التي تتجلى منها عروش الحقائق عين المعارف الأقوم صراطك التام اللهم صل وسلم على طلعة الحق بالحق الكنز الأعظم افاضتك منك اليك احاطة النور المطلسم صلى الله عليه وعلى آله صلاة تعرفنا بها اياه


Salam Aleykum,

What the heck is this? I don't get a word they're saying, can't they make their Du'ah easier so that people can memorize it and understand it?

bugmenot
13-09-2011, 08:14 PM
:ws:,
Many tijanis also believe the Prophet :saw: assist to 7th lecture of this du'a and they lay a white thawb in the centre of their circle to welcome him.

I've added a translation to it.

SunniSeeker
13-09-2011, 08:40 PM
:salam:

I think you are reading it according to the preconceived it notion you have i.e. you are giving it a meaning that the people who recite don't intend. It seems 'salafis' aren't the only people who are suffering from literalism.

:ws:

bugmenot
13-09-2011, 08:46 PM
:ws:
The 'aamil (far from being 'salafi') said because of ambiguous terms this du'a attracts jinns and they did come; plus nowhere is there a clear mention of Nabi :saw:.

suleimanibnsalim
13-09-2011, 09:26 PM
'Ayn = essence, not eye, in case you didn't realize! it is an allusion to the ayah "wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmatan lil 'alamin". . .

bugmenot
16-09-2011, 06:41 AM
:salam:,

Is it right to state that the "the source of the divine mercy" is our Prophet :saw: ? That's the question asked.

Aseatic
16-09-2011, 08:28 AM
Perhaps what was meant was to allude to the ayat "wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmatan li l-'alameen"? (And We did not send you (Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the worlds” (21:107));

abdulwahhab
16-09-2011, 09:34 AM
Perhaps what was meant was to allude to the ayat "wa ma arsalnaka illa rahmatan li l-'alameen"? (And We did not send you (Muhammad) except as a Mercy to the worlds” (21:107));

:salam:

Even then, it does not make sense. ارسلنك means, "We have sent you," which points towards Allah :taala: being the source of mercy and Rasoolullah :saw: being the mercy.

suleimanibnsalim
16-09-2011, 05:49 PM
Well, it was the shirk-sympathizer (sarcasm), Imam ash-Shafi'i who stated in his masterpiece, the Risalah, something to the effect of "there was no blessing which has touched us, whether outwardly or inwardly, except that our master Muhammad salla Llahu 'alayhi wa alihi wa sallam was it's primary cause "as-sabab al-qa'id ila khayriha".

فلم تمس بنا نعمةً ظهرت ولابطنت نلنا بها حظاً في دين ودنيا وفع عنا بها مكروه فيهما وفي أحدٍ منهما إلى ومحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم سببها القائد إلى خيرها الهادي إلى الرشدها الذائد عن الهلكة وموارد السوء من خلاف الرشد المنبه للأسباب التي تورد الهلكة القائم بالنصيحة في الإرشاد والإنذار منها

If that's not the 'ayn of divine mercy, I don't know what is.

Perhaps it would be an idea to familliarize yourselves with the works of the Imams of Ahl as-Sunnah, as agreed upon by all, prior to censuring others.

was-salam

suleimanibnsalim
16-09-2011, 05:52 PM
:salam:

Even then, it does not make sense. ارسلنك means, "We have sent you," which points towards Allah :taala: being the source of mercy and Rasoolullah :saw: being the mercy.

Imam ash-Shafi'i described as RasuluLlah salawat rabbi wa salamuh 'alayh wa 'ala alih as being the 'sabab al-qa'id ila khariha' (the 'ha' referring to every ni'mah which has touched us, outwardly or inwardly). I guess the Imam's Risalah was a contradictory piece which made little sense (sarcasm, again).

[I'm sorry for my coarse attitude in the above posts -- i'm just getting bored of incoherent accusations. i ask you all to forgive me]

Khalid Williams
16-09-2011, 06:20 PM
The 'ayn here means 'spring' or 'stream': 'ayn al-rahma means 'the font of mercy', the channel through which mercy flows. No Muslim in the history of the religion has ever denied that the Prophet (alayhi salat wa salam) is the channel through which Allah's mercy flows - until now, perhaps?

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 07:41 PM
The 'ayn here means 'spring' or 'stream': 'ayn al-rahma means 'the font of mercy', the channel through which mercy flows. No Muslim in the history of the religion has ever denied that the Prophet (alayhi salat wa salam) is the channel through which Allah's mercy flows - until now, perhaps?

Ok let me be serious for a while.

Firstly not sure it means "spring" here although the meaning would be correct yet I doubt this is what he intended, it could also mean "eye" as the Prophet SAWS saw us with an eye of mercy meaning he was merciful towards us, I personally think it means "essence" as he is called "Nabi al-Rahma" or "The Prophet of mercy" since he was sent as a mercy to mankind, I also think the brother maybe confused "عين الرحمة الربانية" with "عين الرحمن" as in the first one I do not believe there is any problem, I can't see where the problem is...

Khalid Williams
16-09-2011, 07:53 PM
If we get into the language of it, then 'spring', 'source' and 'essence' are all suitable translations of 'ayn' here; my offering of 'spring' was meant to show something more of the 'flavour' of the word عين, since these meanings are - for the Arabs - inextricably linked. But yes I agree, 'essence' would be my first choice.

Also, it should be observed that there are some errors in the translation in the first post*, which suggests that the OP - with respect - might not have understood the dua sufficiently to allow him to judge whether it is flawed or not.

*particularly "the light of the creatures becoming human beings"

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 07:55 PM
If we get into the language of it, then 'spring', 'source' and 'essence' are all suitable translations of 'ayn' here; my offering of 'spring' was meant to show something more of the 'flavour' of the word عين, since these meanings are - for the Arabs - inextricably linked. But yes I agree, 'essence' would be my first choice.

Also, it should be observed that there are some errors in the translation in the first post*, which suggests that the OP - with respect - might not have understood the dua sufficiently to allow him to judge whether it is flawed or not.

*particularly "the light of the creatures becoming human beings"

Haha no problem brother, this is an eloquent tongue after all !

Oh and I would also like to add that "عين الرحمة الربانية" could also mean "The true mercy sent from the Lord" or "The true mercy of the Lord (to his servants)".

We can probably come up with many more explanations since the Arabic is such an eloquent tongue, if any of you should look at the meaning of the word "عين" in the Arabic Mu'ujam he'll find plenty of meanings for it.

suleimanibnsalim
16-09-2011, 08:20 PM
for those unaware, ustadh Khalid is a translator by profession. . .

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 08:27 PM
for those unaware, ustadh Khalid is a translator by profession. . .

I noticed Mashallah it definitely shows, maybe we can get him to translate a few books for us :cheesygri

Akhi Suleiman can you come on FB for Chat?

bugmenot
16-09-2011, 08:28 PM
:ws:

:jazak: all for your inputs, that was beneficial.
For the translation I got it from a Tijani website I thought they would translate it in the best way possible.

(For personal reasons I am sceptical about such types of du'a, but people should recite freely and not bother about this thread)

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 08:29 PM
Ustath Khalid may Allah bless you can I ask you about the translation of a certain Hadith?

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 08:38 PM
'Ali ibn abi Talib (ra) shows his obedience to the Imam of his time by saying:
لو سيرني عثمان إلى صرار لسمعت وأطعت

How do we translate this?

Also in the version of Sahih al-Bukhari translated by Muhsin Khan I think, in the Hadith of the battle of Hunayn if I remember correctly the confused Muslims ask 'Umar ibn al-Khattab (ra) about the situation in the battle as many were retreating, so he replies "هذا أمر الله" which they translated to "This is the order of Allah", some enemies of this Ummah use this translation to accuse 'Umar (ra) of lying, they say "How can Allah order this?" clearly they misunderstood but shouldn't have they translated this differently so as to erase this confusion? such as "This matter is in the hands of Allah"?

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 08:40 PM
Add me to you FB as well...

What's your Fb? godilali?

(ok i found u)

Khalid Williams
16-09-2011, 09:07 PM
Apologies to bugmenot, I assumed the translation was yours. No offence!

TripolySunni, for the first I'd say "Were Uthman to direct me to fight, I would heed and obey."

For the second: "Allah's decree", or something similar. This is just a way of saying "things aren't going well" with adab - the Moroccans do it nowadays, saying 'ma sha Allah' when something goes wrong or someone does something they shouldn't have. I agree that the Khan translation is problematic; his translations often lack a certain something...

TripolySunni
16-09-2011, 09:24 PM
Apologies to bugmenot, I assumed the translation was yours. No offence!

TripolySunni, for the first I'd say "Were Uthman to direct me to fight, I would heed and obey."

For the second: "Allah's decree", or something similar. This is just a way of saying "things aren't going well" with adab - the Moroccans do it nowadays, saying 'ma sha Allah' when something goes wrong or someone does something they shouldn't have. I agree that the Khan translation is problematic; his translations often lack a certain something...

Exactly Ustath, I debated this with a Shia and I translated it as "Allah's Decree".

Jazakallah Khayr

MujahidAbdullah
16-09-2011, 11:02 PM
:salam:

Ustadh Khalid - I was wondering if you could maybe start a thread explaining what steps one should take in order to become proficient enough in Arabic to become a translator by proffession - I dont want to de-rail this thread, but my goal in life is actually to become proficient enough in Arabic to translate, especially older classical works - I havew found it very hard to find teachers to learn from, taking into account my life circumstances do not permit for me to just up-root and move to Saudi or Jordan. Maybe you could give myself and others like me a little advice?

:ws:

Khalid Williams
17-09-2011, 12:23 PM
:salam:

Ustadh Khalid - I was wondering if you could maybe start a thread explaining what steps one should take in order to become proficient enough in Arabic to become a translator by proffession - I dont want to de-rail this thread, but my goal in life is actually to become proficient enough in Arabic to translate, especially older classical works - I havew found it very hard to find teachers to learn from, taking into account my life circumstances do not permit for me to just up-root and move to Saudi or Jordan. Maybe you could give myself and others like me a little advice?

:ws:

Go ahead and start the thread if you like, Sidi, and then maybe I and any others who are in translation (or looking to get into it) can give advice and have some discussion in sha Allah.