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XTREME
05-10-2011, 01:16 PM
QUESTION:
How old was Aisha (R.A.) when she married the Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.)? Did Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) marry a 9 year old?

ANSWER:

The Quran was written during the time of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) and its 100%
authentic! Nowhere in The Quran is it mentioned about the Prophet's(P.B.U.H.)
marriage!
But its mentioned in the Hadiths!

BUT LETS SEE WHAT THESE HADITHS SAY

The Prophet married Aisha (R.A.) 1 year after Hijrah! This is a known fact!

POINT 1
According to Sahih Bukhari (which is the most authentic) of the hadiths! According to Sahih Bukhari, Aisha (R.A.) is reported to have said that at the time
Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th Chapter of the Quran, was revealed, "I was a
young girl"
The 54th surah of The Quran was revealed nine years before Hijrah. So Aisha (R.A.) was a young girl (jariyah), and not an infant (sibyah) at that time! THE PROPHET MARRIED Aisha (R.A.) ONE YEAR AFTER HIJRAH! SO NOW WE KNOW SHE WAS A YOUNG GIRL, 9 YEARS BEFORE HIJRAH

SO EVEN IFFOR EXAMPLE SHE WAS 7 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE SAID "I WAS A YOUNG GIRL", THEN SHE MARRIED THE PROPHET 10 YEARS AFTER THAT! WHICH MEANS SHE WAS OVER 17 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!

POINT 2
According to a number of narratives, Aisha (R.A.) accompanied the Muslims in the
Battle of Badr and Uhud. It was usual for women to accompany men in
battle so they can help in looking after the wounded.
It was a strict rule that noone under the age of 15 was allowed to accompany anyone in battle! BATTLE OF BADR WAS 2 YEARS AFTER HIJRAH AND BATTLE OF UHUD WAS 3 YEARS AFTER HIJRAH! REMEMBER PROPHET Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH! WHICH MEANS SHE COULD NEVER HAVE BEEN 9 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!

POINT 3
It is a known fact that the Asma, (the elder sister of Aisha (R.A.)) was 10 years
older than Aisha (R.A.). It is reported that Asma died 73 years after Hijrah when
she was 100 years old!

Now, Obviously if Asma was 100 years old 73 years after Hijrah, then Asma should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah! If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at Hijrah, then Aisha (R.A.) would be 17 or 18 years old at Hijrah! REMEMBER PROPHET Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) MARRIED Aisha (R.A.) 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH! SO THAT MEANS Aisha (R.A.) WAS 18 OR 19 YEARS OLD WHEN SHE GOT MARRIED!

POINT 4
Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (father
of Aisha (R.A.)) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born
during pre Islamic period!
If Aisha (R.A.) was born before in the Pre Islamic period, then she would be more than 13 years old during Hijrah! REMEMBER PROPHET MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH,
WHICH MEANS SHE WOULD BE MORE THAT 14 YEARS OLD
DURING THE TIME OF MARRIAGE!

POINT 5
According to Ibn Hisham, Aisha (R.A.) accepted Islam quite some time before
Umar ibn Khattab. Umar ibn Khattab accepted Islam roughly 7 years before
Hijrah!
Obviously, she would have been a young girl when she accpeted Islam!

If you add 7 years to a young girl! You can think for yourselves! REMEMBER PROPHET MARRIED HER 1 YEAR AFTER HIJRAH!

POINT 6
According to Ibn Hajar, Fathima (daughter of Prophet) was 5 years older than Aisha (R.A.)! Fathima was born more than 5 years before Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) was a Prophet! That means Fathima was born more than 19 years before Hijrah! PROPHET MARRIED Aisha (R.A.) ONE YEAR AFTER HIJRAH! SO THIS AGAIN PROVES Aisha (R.A.) WAS OVER 15 YEARS OLD WHEN THE PROPHET MARRIED HER!

ALL THIS EVIDENCE SHOWS THAT Aisha (R.A.)
WAS NOT 9 YEARS OLD WHEN THE
PROPHET MARRIED HER!

BUT WHERE DOES IT SAY SHE WAS 9 YEARS OLD?


The narratives saying Aisha (R.A.) was 9 years old at the time of marriage, are
reported only by a man named Hisham ibn Urwah reporting from what he
heard from his father!
If Hisham ibn Urwah was right then others would have also reported but Hisham ibn Urwah is the only person to report this! Hisham ibn Urwah lived in Medinah but its very fishy because there were so many others in Medinah including the Jews!
Even the Jews did not report any such thing!
If Prophet had married a 9 year old, obviously the Jews would have reported
or made a fuss because as we know Jews always wanted to destroy Islam! All the narratives saying Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) married a 9 year old have been
reported from Iraq! Hisham ibn Urwah moved to Iraq later and these
narratives come from Iraq! Hisham moved to Iraq when he was 71 years old!
We know Iraq was influenced by Shias! Shia Muslims don't like the Prophet!
We don't know if the narratives of Hisham ibn Urwah were influenced by
them!
The narratives of Hisham ibn Urwah where he says Aisha (R.A.) was 9 years old when she married the Prophet have all come from Iraq!

WHAT DO OTHERS SAY ABOUT HISHAM IBN URWAH?
Tehzibu'l-tehzib, a man who was one of the most well known people on the life and reliability of the narratives of the traditions of the Prophet!
What did he have to say about Hisham ibn Urwah's narrations?
According to Yaqub ibn Shaibah he said: "narratives reported by Hisham
which are reported through the people of Iraq are unreliable!

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 02:59 PM
Actually she was nine according to the authentic narrations in Sunni and Shia books as well as the opinion of the expert historians.

So don't waste your time...

abdulwahhab
05-10-2011, 03:06 PM
:salam:

'Aisha :anha: was 6 years at the time of marriage and 9 years when the nikah was consummated. This revisionism in an attempt to placate non-Muslim sentiments does us no good.

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 03:18 PM
An expert Muhaddith from Egypt replies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JJ4io7n5Ho

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 04:36 PM
A useful summary containing some of the information mentioned by the scholar in the episode above can be downloaded from here:

Link: The Age of Aishah's Marriage Between Historians and Hadith Scholars (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HYF8VZQZ)

Some of the other chains mentioned for the Hadith (there are more):

1- Aishah → 'Urwah → Az-Zuhree → Mamar → Abdur Razaaq → Abd ibn Humaid → Muslim

2- Aishah → Al-Aswad → Ibraheem → Al-A’amash→ Abu Mua’awiyah → Yahya ibn Yahya, Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem, Abu Bakr ibn Abee Shaibah and Abu Kuraib → Muslim

3- Aishah → Yahya (ibn Abdur Rahmaan ibn Haatib) → Muhammad (ibn Amr) → the father of U’baidullah ibn Muadh → Ubaidullah ibn Muadh → Abu Dawood

4- Aishah → Abu Salamah ibn Abdur Rahman → Muhammad ibn Ibraheem → I’mara ibn Ghazya → Yahya ibn Ayub → the paternal uncle of Ahmad ibn Sa’d ibn Al-Hakam ibn Abee Maryam → Ahmad ibn Sa’d ibn Al-Hakam ibn Abee Maryam → An-Nasaaee

5- Aishah → Abu U’baidah → Abu Ishaaq → Mutarrif → A'bthar → Qutaibah → An-Nasaaee

6- Aishah → Al-Aswad → Ibraheem → Al-A’amash → Abu Mua’awiyah → Muhammad ibn Al-A'laa’ and Ahmad ibn Harb → An-Nasaaee

7- Abdullah → Abu Ubaidah → Abu Ishaaq → Israeel → Abu Ahmad→ Ahmad ibn Sinan → Ibn Majah

8- Aishah → Al-Aswad → Ibraheem → Al-A’amash → Abu Mua’awiyah→ the father of Abdullah → Abdullah → Ahmad ibn Hanbal

9- Aishah → Al-Aswad → Ibraheem → Al-A’amash → Abu Mua’awiyah → Yahya ibn Yahya → Abu Ja’far Muhammad ibn Al-Hajjaaj Al-Waraaq → Abu Abdullah Muhammad Ibn Ya’qoub → Abu Abdullah Al-Haafidh → Al-Baihaqi

10- Jaabir → Yazeed ibn Jaabir → Abdullah ibn Abdur Rahman ibn Yazeed ibn Jaabir → Abu Mushar Abdul A’laa ibn Mushar → Ibraheem ibn Al-Hussain ibn Daizeel → Ahmad ibn U’baid ibn Ibraheem Al-Asdee, the Haafidh of Hamdan → Al-Haakim

11- Abdullah → Abu U’baidah → Abu Ishaaq→ Shareek → Yahya ibn Adam → Abdur Rahman ibn Saalih Al-Azdee → Muhammad ibn Moosaa ibn Hammaad Al-Barbaree
→ At-Tabaraani

12- Qataadah → Sa’eed ibn Abee U’roba → Zuhair ibn Ala’la Al-Qaisee → Ahmad ibn Al-Miqdaam → Muhammad ibn Ja’far ibn Ai’n Al-Baghdaadee → At-Tabaraani

13- Aishah → Al-Qaasim ibn Muhammad → Sa’d ibn Ibraheem → Sufyaan → Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan Al-Asdee → Al-Hassan ibn Sahal Al-Hannat → Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Hadramee → At-Tabaraani

14- Aishah → Abu U’baidah → Abu Ishaaq → Mutarrif → A’bthar ibn Al-Wasim → Sa’eed ibn Amr Al-Sha’athi → Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Hadramee → At-Tabaraani

15- Abu Maleekah → Abu Usaama → Al-Ajla’e Abdullah ibn U’mar ibn Abbaan → Muhammad ibn Abdullah Al-Hadramee → At-Tabaraani

16- Aishah → 'Urwah → Hisham ibn ’Urwah → Abdur Rahman → Sulaiman ibn Dawood → the father of Abdullah → Abdullah → Ahmad ibn Hanbal

ftannouss
05-10-2011, 04:52 PM
:salam:

'Aisha :anha: was 6 years at the time of marriage and 9 years when the nikah was consummated. This revisionism in an attempt to placate non-Muslim sentiments does us no good.

What is meant by an attempt to placate non muslim sentiments? Where do you get your facts from relating to the age of Aisha?

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 04:57 PM
Now since we're done with the opinions and Asaneed of Ahlul-Sunnah, let us reply to the Ithna 'Ashari Shia from their own books and from the authentic sayings of Ahlul-Bayt (as) according to their school:

1- Muwathaqa or Sahiha of Ibn Sinan from the Shaykh's chain to Hasan bin Sam'ah -
الوسائل ج19 ص365 وتهذيب الأحكام ج9 ص184 والكافي ج7 ص68

الحسن بن سماعة عن جعفر بن سماعة عن آدم بياع اللؤلؤ عن عبدالله بن سنان عن ابي عبدالله عليه السلام قال: اذا بلغ الغلام ثلاث عشرة سنة كتبت له الحسنة وكتبت عليه السيئة وعوقب وإذا بلغت الجارية تسع سنين فكذلك وذلك انها تحيض لتسع سنين

Hasan bin Sam'ah from Ja'far bin Sam'ah from Adam Lu'lui fro Abdillah bin Sinan from IMAM Abu Abdillah (a.s) who said: When a boy reaches 13 years good and evil deeds are recorded for him and when a girl reaches nine years likewise and that is because she begins menstruating at nine.

source: Wasael al-Shia 19/365, Tahtheeb al-Ahkam 9/184, al-Kafi 7/68.

2-
[75] 5 ـ وعن علي بن إبراهيم، عن محمد بن عيسى، عن يونس، عن أبي أيوب الخراز، عن إسماعيل بن جعفر ـ في حديث ـ أن رسول الله ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) دخل بعائشة وهي بنت عشر سنين، وليس يدخل بالجارية حتى تكون امرأة.

And from Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Abu Ayyub al-Kharraz from Isma`il b. Ja`far in a hadith that the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (i.e. had intercourse with) `A’isha and she was ten years old, and that one does not enter upon a girl until she is a woman.

Source:
Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7 pg. 388 - 389, hadeeth # 1
Grading:
Al-Majlisi said this hadeeth is SaHeeH
--> Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235

There are more proofs from their books but I doubt you'll need any as these are enough, overall what we've presented answers Sunni and Shia deniers incha-Allah.

و السلام عليكم

AbuFatimah
05-10-2011, 06:09 PM
Is anyone able to address the OP's points directly? I also met the exact same arguements and wasnt sure how to deal with them dispite being pretty certain that they are just muslim attempts to please kuffar bgut irrespective of that, academic points were made and need to be addressed. My question to the OP is where is your evidence that suratul qamar was revealed at the time you claimed?

AbuFatimah
05-10-2011, 06:13 PM
there is a valid point that this hadeeth regarding ayesha's age is narrated from a sahaba and not narrated from ayesha herself or the prophet, so even though its in bukhari, it only means the chain is authenticly linked back to urwah. Its doesnt prove that urwah was correct in his oppinion.

Another question to the OP, can you give any examples in bukhari or muslim where things are authentically narrated by sahaba's but the sahaba were incorrect in their statement. For example, erroneous fiqh rulings (I believe some of the sahaba held mutah and music and other things to be halal for example, can this be traced back to bukhari or muslim?)

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 06:14 PM
Is anyone able to address the OP's points directly? I also met the exact same arguements and wasnt sure how to deal with them dispite being pretty certain that they are just muslim attempts to please kuffar bgut irrespective of that, academic points were made and need to be addressed. My question to the OP is where is your evidence that suratul qamar was revealed at the time you claimed?

Akhi I uploaded a small book for you guys in my post above, has anyone bothered to read it?

Link: The Age of Aishah's Marriage Between Historians and Hadith Scholars (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HYF8VZQZ)

AbuFatimah
05-10-2011, 06:17 PM
Akhi I uploaded a small book for you guys in my post above, has anyone bothered to read it?

Link: The Age of Aishah's Marriage Between Historians and Hadith Scholars (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HYF8VZQZ)

sorry akh i missed it for some reason. Gotta wait 50seconds for it to download. Does it directly answer the OP's points?

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 06:19 PM
there is a valid point that this hadeeth regarding ayesha's age is narrated from a sahaba and not narrated from ayesha herself or the prophet, so even though its in bukhari, it only means the chain is authenticly linked back to urwah. Its doesnt prove that urwah was correct in his oppinion.

Another question to the OP, can you give any examples in bukhari or muslim where things are authentically narrated by sahaba's but the sahaba were incorrect in their statement. For example, erroneous fiqh rulings (I believe some of the sahaba held mutah and music and other things to be halal for example, can this be traced back to bukhari or muslim?)

Akhi I posted the Asaneed above can't you see that it's narrated from Hisham ibn 'Urwah (rah) who heard it from 'Urwah ibn al-Zubair (ra) who heard it from 'Aisha (as)... thus it's in fact 'Aisha (ra) who is narrating this about herself.

Ibn 'Abbas (ra) held that Muta'ah was allowed in extreme cases but all the other companions (ra) disagreed with him and narrated what they heard from the Prophet SAWS in forbidding Muta'ah.

XTREME
05-10-2011, 06:28 PM
Did I post something wrong?

TripolySunni
05-10-2011, 06:31 PM
Did I post something wrong?

Salam Aleykum,

No you posted a Shubuha(Doubt) and we refuted it, no problem in this.

So be careful where you get your information from Akhi.

XTREME
05-10-2011, 08:08 PM
Salam Aleykum,

No you posted a Shubuha(Doubt) and we refuted it, no problem in this.

So be careful where you get your information from Akhi.

Jazak Allah Kher!

I will InshAllah ...

abdulwahhab
06-10-2011, 12:48 AM
What is meant by an attempt to placate non muslim sentiments? Where do you get your facts from relating to the age of Aisha?

Many Muslims, being affected by the Western, non-Muslim lifestyle feel embarrassed and ashamed when the issue about the age of 'Aisha :anha: comes up, when Muslims should know that nothing from the sunnah of Rasoolullah :saw: is shameful or embarrassing. So, some of these Muslims try to find ways to explain away these 'embarrassing' sunnahs and in their efforts, trample over firm beliefs held by Muslims for centuries which are based on sound evidence.

The age of 'Aisha :anha: is proven from saheeh ahadeeth.

Also:

I am not saying all, but most people who try to say that 'Aisha :anha: was 18 or 17 or whatever are Qaadiyanis. In fact, if you look up the issue about the age of 'Aisha :anha: on Google, one of the first hits is to a Qaadiyani website.

faizol
06-10-2011, 03:12 AM
Many Muslims, being affected by the Western, non-Muslim lifestyle feel embarrassed and ashamed when the issue about the age of 'Aisha :anha: comes up.

:salam:

Sorry but if any Muslim feels "embarrassed" about the age of 'Aisha :anha: because of the western "standard age", he/she should check the acceptable age for marriage just 100 years ago in the western countries.

The US Supreme Court, in 1877 confirmed the Common Law (passed from the Roman Law to the Church to English Common Law) regarding the age of marriage that “between 7 years and puberty there could be consent but not consummation” until puberty, and no parental consent required from the age of 12. Ironically, age of marriage confirmed in 1877 was 2 years younger than that of 'Aisha :anha: 1400 years ago. Even today, this Common Law and such marriages are recognized in all 50 states in the US.

You can get all the details from this youtube and the mentioned original source of references in the video;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEwmfIgSQQU

The non muslims who try to slander our beloved Prophet :saw:'s characters have nothing to back them up. And their "modern civilised society" are so screwed for example on the law regarding bestiality;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestiality

"In many jurisdictions, all forms of zoosexual acts are prohibited; others outlaw only the mistreatment of animals, without specific mention of sexual activity. In some countries, such as Denmark, bestiality is not outlawed. It is currently illegal in Canada, Netherlands, 32 U.S. states,[21] Australia, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, Turkey and Ghana. In the UK, Section 63 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 (also known as the Extreme Pornography Act) outlaws images of a person performing or appearing to perform an act of intercourse or oral sex with an animal (whether dead or alive).[22] Countries such as Belgium, Germany, and Russia are somewhere in between: they permit sexual activity with animals, but prohibit the promotion of animal-oriented pornography."

And they have the nerve to slander our beloved Prophet :saw: and the Mother of the Believers 'Aisha :anha:?

:jazak:

Oblivion
06-10-2011, 10:02 AM
@TRIPOLI SUNNI Salam alie kum

Firstly, I would like to say that, just because it's written in hadith (sunni or shia) books, doesn't neccesarry mean it has to be 100% true. Hadith books were written many years after the Holy Prophet (s) passed away.

Secondly, my best friend is a shia. He has Usool Kafi and he has looked at the reference you have provided regarding this topic, and found no such thing. Please don't tell me he is just lying to me. I have known him all my life and to tell you the truth, he is one of the most honest guys I have ever met, even more honest than my own sunni brothers.

Thirdly, my shia friend also stated that Shia's only hold the quran as 100% accurate. Everything else written, is subject to scrutiny and verification. So according to him, if there are any hadith in any authentic books, this does not automatically make it 100% correct.

He said this is a big lie and slander against the Holy Prophet (S) and that the enemies of Islam have forged this hadith to make Islam look bad and to laugh at us. ALso we are just to blind and brainwashed to see this just because it's written in Buhkari.

sudoku
06-10-2011, 10:20 AM
Why would the enemies of Islam have to forge any such thing? Marriages at such a young age were not uncommon during those times.

abd7861
06-10-2011, 10:34 AM
:salam:

The age of Hadhrat Ayesha :anha: is one issue in which people who want to cast aspersions on the supreme character of Rasulullah :saw: always use. We proudly proclaim that he :saw: married her when she was 9. This is the authentic age according to the authentic tarikhs.

In the same vein as the orientalists tried to cast doubt on the authenticity of Hadith by stating that they were only written two hunderd years after Rasulullah :saw: therefore they cannot be relied upon this is one of their other ruses.

Allah Ta'ala has informed us that Rasulullah :saw:'s had "khuluqun azeem" this is more than enough to dispel any waswasa that are aimed at Muslims.

We do not need to make excuses to justify this.

:ws:

amr123
06-10-2011, 10:42 AM
:salam:

We do not need to make excuses to justify this.

:ws:

:ws:

Absolutely.

The age bar wasn't so high (18 years) around 100 years back. It was very low for thousands of years. The problem is people do not know history very well.

Oblivion
06-10-2011, 11:16 AM
Why would the enemies of Islam have to forge any such thing? Marriages at such a young age were not uncommon during those times.

Islam is for ALL times. What rules apply then would apply now. We don't change the rules with the times. So let me ask you a question and please be honest. Would you give your daughter away at the age of 6 ?

sudoku
06-10-2011, 11:21 AM
No I probably would not because of my weak nafs, not because I disagree that Ayesha :anha: was married at 6.

Abu_Bilal
06-10-2011, 11:35 AM
Actually some ulema have refuted that Aisha (RA) was 9 years old, when married.

There has been some detailed analysis done by some ulema, and it is proven that Aisha (RA) was actually 19 when married.

janaveronikazahra
06-10-2011, 11:43 AM
Islam is for ALL times. What rules apply then would apply now. We don't change the rules with the times. So let me ask you a question and please be honest. Would you give your daughter away at the age of 6 ?

salam alikum,
yes islam is for all times, but as a complex and not to take only one or some parts.. so we have to consider also situation that time and conditinons nowdays

w salam

Oblivion
06-10-2011, 11:44 AM
No I probably would not because of my weak nafs, not because I disagree that Ayesha :anha: was married at 6.

I think your being just stubborn now. Its got nothing to do with weak nafs. I have spoken to scholars and very pious people who are strong in faith and even they said they wouldn't. I agre with the other brother regarding Aisha's age and she must hve been in her teens at the very least. I think most of you would accept it if Bukhari it was said she was 2 years old !

sudoku
06-10-2011, 11:48 AM
I think your being just stubborn now. Its got nothing to do with weak nafs. I have spoken to scholars and very pious people who are strong in faith and even they said they wouldn't. I agre with the other brother regarding Aisha's age and she must hve been in her teens at the very least. I think most of you would accept it if Bukhari it was said she was 2 years old !Think as you wish. It's a growing trend on Sunniforum for members to have kashf about what goes on in the minds of others.

Oblivion
06-10-2011, 12:03 PM
Think as you wish. It's a growing trend on Sunniforum for members to have kashf about what goes on in the minds of others.

So if it was in Bukhari that Aisha was 2 years old when she got married, would you still accept it?

abd7861
06-10-2011, 12:05 PM
:salam:


@brother oblivion - Your comment that people would believe Sahih Bukhari if it said two years old then let me state that yes I would believe it. Have you criticially analysed the chains of all the narrations in Bukhari to make an opposite assertion. Provide your proof of at least one narration in Sahih Bukhari that you consider to be academically false. Do you know the criteria that Imam Bukhari used in compiling his Sahih? Do you know the lengths he undertook to ascertain the authenticity of the narrators? Do you know the science of Asma wa Rijal? Are you able to critically analyse all the different Isnad in the hadiths he has quoted? To not believe in the authenticity of a Hadith just becasue you do not agree with the statements quoted in it is in no shape or form an academic argument.

If not then follow the advice of Rasulullah :saw: Speak well or be silent.

Your logic is inherently faulty. Just because Hadhrat Ayesha :anha: was able to be married at the age of 6 and then consummated the marriage with Rasulullah :saw: at 9 does not mean that it is has become necessary for people to follow this. She was an exceptional lady and an exceptional talent. Her mental aptitude, fortitude, asecticism and maturity were beyond question. She was fully able to withstand the austerity of living with Nabi of Allah Ta'ala. Does that mean that just because sister Sudoku, myself or other countless pious ulama do not give their daughter in marriage at that age that they are doing wrong? Provide evidence from the Shariah stating otherwise.

My daughter is seven years old and I know for a fact that she is not mature enough or capable enough of marrying in two years time. However, I will follow the instruction of Rasulullah :saw: in that once your daughters are of marriageable age (which in the Shariat of Allah Ta'ala is from 9 if the girl is mature enough) and a good proposal arrives or I find a deeni boy then I will marry her as soon as possible.

:ws:

sudoku
06-10-2011, 12:08 PM
So if it was in Bukhari that Aisha was 2 years old when she got married, would you still accept it?

Perhaps you've mistaken me for a Salafi. I don't just pick up hadeeth books and pick and choose what I like. I do not have the right to do so.

In any case, your question is moot.

amr123
06-10-2011, 12:21 PM
Firstly, I would like to say that, just because it's written in hadith (sunni or shia) books, doesn't neccesarry mean it has to be 100% true.[B] Hadith books were written many years after the Holy Prophet (s) passed away.




*cough* hadith rejector *cough*

NNoor
06-10-2011, 12:22 PM
When the average human life expectancy is in the 20s, getting married at 9 isn't such a stretch, is it? Back in those days, people matured psychologically a lot faster. There was childhood, which was brief, and if you survived to be old enough, you became an adult. Adolescence is a societal construct of the 20th century.

If I had a daughter who was physically and psychologically ready to get married at 9, and she was willing to get married, why would I have a problem with it?

Oblivion
06-10-2011, 12:32 PM
Did i say i reject them? I was simply stating a fact. We are human and we all make mistakes.

abdulwahhab
06-10-2011, 12:38 PM
:salam:

The real question should be if Rasoolullah :saw: asked to marry your daughter of 6, would you?

Sulaiman84
06-10-2011, 12:40 PM
Did i say i reject them? I was simply stating a fact. We are human and we all make mistakes.

And it's a simple fact that academic mistakes of those deeply grounded in knowledge are way different from the mistakes of the ignorant.

mmb786
06-10-2011, 12:42 PM
:salam:

The real question should be if Rasoolullah :saw: asked to marry your daughter of 6, would you?

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

amr123
06-10-2011, 12:49 PM
:salam:

People are so engrossed in current culture they forget how people lived in the past. The Mushrik accused our beloved Prophet :saw: of whatever came to their mind. But they never accused Him :saw: of marrying Aisha :anha: at the age of 9years. Because it was a norm in that time. Also we should look at the fact IT WAS A NORM FOR 1000s OF YEARS. Until a few decades ago, marriages were conducted at a very young age group.

amr123
06-10-2011, 03:02 PM
:bism:

i am trying to locate one thread...in which two replies are very intellectual...which shuts the mouth of everyone...

i will try to post it soon...inshallah!

Here i ve quoted it:






QUOTE= verdana: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?71739-A-question-in-regards-to-Muhammad-%28PBUH%29-s-marriage-to-Aisha.&p=603851&viewfull=1#post603851

In hot countries girls tend to reach their puberty earlier than others. This is well known fact. Even today, in Saudi or some other countries you can find 9-year old mothers with 2 children. The age to become a mother is designed, written, proposed and implemented by the very architect of our bodies, that's our Creator, although man-made laws would come up with superstitious impractical numbers.

The marriage of Prophet (s.a.w) to Aysha (r.anha) was decreed by Allah through inspirational dreams that the prophet saw. The dreams of the prophets are wahy', and wahy' is a divine command, similar to the command given to prophet Ibrahim (a.s) to slaughter his son Ismail (a.s). The fact that Aysha (r.anha) was young with a brilliant inquisitive mind and powerful memory, to later on convey all what she'd learned from her noble husband (s.a.w) in general, and in particular his intimate relations and behaviors within household, are to be count among some wisdom of this marriage.

Having said this, I don't deny or refuse to abide by the laws of the countries we reside in. These are two different things.




QUOTE= abuhajira http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?71739-A-question-in-regards-to-Muhammad-%28PBUH%29-s-marriage-to-Aisha.&p=604333&viewfull=1#post604333

:salam:

following on that suggestion that Nabi :saw: would marry her and not consummate that marriage, precisely what age should the wife be when a husband can consummate the marriage without having to be answerable for it?

A more probing question would be, how do you think our Fiqh and Islamic rules would evolve for today, if we assume that Nabi :saw: had not consummated the marriage? Do you think any madhab (School of thought) would allow consummating with a 9/10 year old female who is completely mature, able to bear children, desirous of relationship by token of being baligh. Afterall Rasulullah :saw: did not, then it must be impermissible.

My point is, that Rasulullah :saw: doing so also establishes a ruling of shariah, that consummation does not depend on age rather the ability of girl to consummate and bear children.

Another point to ponder, just something to tantalize those neurons. According to Western law normally age of consensual relation is 18. What makes 17 years and 364 days not eligible for the woman to make her private choice, and suddenly the birthday bells give her that ability?

You can also twist this matter into Islamic question. The surety of buloogh (maturity) is at the age of 15 lunar (14.5 solar) years. What makes her mature a moment after her 15th year? and not before then?

:ws:

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 03:37 PM
@TRIPOLI SUNNI Salam alie kum

Firstly, I would like to say that, just because it's written in hadith (sunni or shia) books, doesn't neccesarry mean it has to be 100% true. Hadith books were written many years after the Holy Prophet (s) passed away.

Secondly, my best friend is a shia. He has Usool Kafi and he has looked at the reference you have provided regarding this topic, and found no such thing. Please don't tell me he is just lying to me. I have known him all my life and to tell you the truth, he is one of the most honest guys I have ever met, even more honest than my own sunni brothers.

Thirdly, my shia friend also stated that Shia's only hold the quran as 100% accurate. Everything else written, is subject to scrutiny and verification. So according to him, if there are any hadith in any authentic books, this does not automatically make it 100% correct.

He said this is a big lie and slander against the Holy Prophet (S) and that the enemies of Islam have forged this hadith to make Islam look bad and to laugh at us. ALso we are just to blind and brainwashed to see this just because it's written in Buhkari.

Salam Aleykum,

I am so sorry but unfortunately I'll have to inform you that your friend which you trust is one of the biggest liars on the face of planet earth.

This is the full text of the Hadith from al-Kafi:


عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ يُونُسَ عَنْ أَبِي أَيُّوبَ الْخَزَّازِ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنَ جَعْفَرٍ مَتَى تَجُوزُ شَهَادَةُ الْغُلَامِ فَقَالَ إِذَا بَلَغَ عَشْرَ سِنِينَ قَالَ قُلْتُ وَ يَجُوزُ أَمْرُهُ قَالَ فَقَالَ إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ ( صلى الله عليه وآله ) دَخَلَ بِعَائِشَةَ وَ هِيَ بِنْتُ عَشْرِ سِنِينَ وَ لَيْسَ يُدْخَلُ بِالْجَارِيَةِ حَتَّى تَكُونَ امْرَأَةً فَإِذَا كَانَ لِلْغُلَامِ عَشْرُ سِنِينَ جَازَ أَمْرُهُ وَ جَازَتْ



With the exact same page number and with a Sahih chain according to his own scholars.

So your friend lied when he said the first Hadith is not present in al-Kafi, tell him it is the first Hadith in the chapter "باب شَهَادَةِ الصِّبْيَانِ".
I'll do you a favor and link you to this chapter from their own official Shia website:
http://www.mezan.net/books/kafi/kafi7/html/ara/books/al-kafi-7/233.html

Now to the second Hadith, here is the complete Matn from al-Kafi:



عَنْهُ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ آدَمَ بَيَّاعِ اللُّؤْلُؤِ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ
سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ( عليه السلام ) قَالَ إِذَا بَلَغَ الْغُلَامُ ثَلَاثَ عَشْرَةَ سَنَةً كُتِبَتْ لَهُ الْحَسَنَةُ وَ كُتِبَتْ عَلَيْهِ السَّيِّئَةُ وَ عُوقِبَ وَ إِذَا بَلَغَتِ الْجَارِيَةُ تِسْعَ سِنِينَ فَكَذَلِكَ وَ ذَلِكَ أَنَّهَا تَحِيضُ لِتِسْعِ سِنِينَ


It is there, the sixth Hadith under the chapter "باب الْوَصِيِّ يُدْرِكُ أَيْتَامُهُ فَيَمْتَنِعُونَ مِنْ أَخْذِ مَالِهِمْ وَ مَنْ يُدْرِكُ وَ لَا يُؤْنَسُ مِنْهُ الرُّشْدُ وَ حَدِّ الْبُلُوغِ" and it is Sahih according to his scholars such as al-Behbudi in Sahih al-Kafi 3/260 and al-Majlisi in Miraat al-'Uqoul 23/109.

I'll link you to it as usual so you can see that your friend lied to you twice:
http://www.mezan.net/books/kafi/kafi7/html/ara/books/al-kafi-7/40.html

So now you say that just because it is found in sunni/shia books doesn't make it Sahih, isn't this right Ya Sheikh? because it's up to laymen like yourself to decide what is Sahih and what is Da'eef, I understand your anger because I nuked your strongest argument which was in the OP but a fact is a fact and this is agreed upon by scholars, no one rejected this fact except a few orientalists and it looks like you're following their Sunnah.

Then you said that your best friend told you that if anything contradicts the Quran then it's not Sahih right? the Shia always say this then they end up taking the words of their scholars and rejecting the Quran, now I want you and your friend to open the Quran and find me a verse which says that it is forbidden to marry a nine year old, if you find it then I'll agree that this Hadith contradicts the Quran and we'll abandon it.

Also since your a Hanafi, find me a respectable Hanafi scholar that rejects this Hadith or weakens it.

Then your genius friend says:

ALso we are just to blind and brainwashed to see this just because it's written in Buhkari.

On the first page I presented around 15 different sources for the Hadith, so no it's not in Bukhari alone...unless the enemies of Islam had access to all our books and inserted the exact same narration with Sahih chains in 18 other books.

Also ask your Shia friend about his scholars who keep insulting 'Aisha (ra) and the rest of the Prophet's SAWS wives (as) and his companions (ra) day and night, are they by any chance insulting our prophet SAWS and slandering him?

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 03:41 PM
Actually some ulema have refuted that Aisha (RA) was 9 years old, when married.

There has been some detailed analysis done by some ulema, and it is proven that Aisha (RA) was actually 19 when married.

They're not 'Ulema.

Salman_Hanafi
06-10-2011, 04:16 PM
Actually some ulema have refuted that Aisha (RA) was 9 years old, when married.

There has been some detailed analysis done by some ulema, and it is proven that Aisha (RA) was actually 19 when married.

:salam:.....nobody seems to have noticed what a student of a prominent deobandi Mufti (Ismaeel Toro saab) has posted on the topic...this requires some explanation then....Maulana can you elaborate a bit more...

Personally have no problem believing that Syeda Ayesha :anha: was 9 when she was married to Huzoor :saw:.....its in Bukhari isnt it...In fact it is better to stick to this opinion as this annoys the Kuffar

Salman_Hanafi
06-10-2011, 04:19 PM
They're not 'Ulema, they're idiots.

:salam:....thats too harsh brother...I assure you the ulema Maulana Abu Bilal is talking about are authentic scholars and they would not have reached the conclusion to please the propagandists.....I request you to rethink what you just posted...

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 04:30 PM
Actually I have something good for Oblivion's Shia friend from their famous shia book "Al-Tawheed" by Al-Saduq (p. 78) we find the 21st narration in the 8th chapter containing the following SAHIH hadith narrated Ahmad bin Ziad bin Ja'afar al-Hamdani from 'Ali bin Ibrahim from his father Ibrahim ibn Hashim from 'Abdul-Salam bin Saleh al-Harawi that he said to Imam 'Ali bin Musa al-Reda:...



حدثنا أحمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني رحمه الله، قال: حدثنا علي ابن إبراهيم، عن أبيه إبراهيم بن هاشم، عن عبد السلام بن صالح الهروي، قال:

قلت لعلي بن موسى الرضا عليهما السلام،: يا ابن رسول الله ما تقول في الحديث الذي يرويه أهل الحديث أن المؤمنين يزورون ربهم من منازلهم في الجنة؟ فقال عليه السلام:

يا أبا الصلت إن الله تبارك وتعالى فضل نبيه محمد صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم على جميع خلقه من النبيين والملائكة، وجعل طاعته طاعته ومتابعته متابعته وزيارته في الدنيا والآخرة زيارته فقال عز وجل: (من يطع الرسول فقد أطاع الله)، وقال: (إن الذين يبايعونك إنما يبايعون الله يد الله فوق أيديهم) وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: (من زارني في حياتي أو بعد موتي فقد زار الله) درجة النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم في الجنة أرفع الدرجات، فمن زاره إلى درجته في الجنة من منزله فقد زار الله تبارك وتعالى.

قال: فقلت له: يا ابن رسول الله فما معنى الخبر الذي رووه أن ثواب لا إله إلا الله النظر إلى وجه الله؟ فقال عليه السلام: يا أبا الصلت من وصف الله بوجه كالوجوه فقد كفر ولكن وجه الله أنبياؤه ورسله وحججه صلوات الله عليهم، هم الذين بهميتوجه إلى الله وإلى دينه ومعرفته، وقال الله عز وجل: (كل من عليها فان و يبقى وجه ربك) وقال عز وجل: (كل شئ هالك إلا وجهه) فالنظر إلى أنبياء الله ورسله وحججه عليهم السلام في درجاتهم ثواب عظيم للمؤمنين يوم القيامة، وقد قال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: (من أبغض أهل بيتي وعترتي لم يرني ولم أره يوم القيامة) وقال عليه السلام: (إن فيكم من لا يراني بعد أن يفارقني) يا أبا الصلت إن الله تبارك و تعالى لا يوصف بمكان، ولا تدركه الأبصار والأوهام.فقال: قلت له: يا ابن رسول الله فأخبرني عن الجنة والنار أهما اليوم مخلوقتان؟ فقال: نعم، وأن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله قد دخل الجنة ورأى النار لما عرج به إلى السماء، قال: فقلت له: إن قوما يقولون: إنهما اليوم مقدرتان غير مخلوقتين، فقال عليه السلام: ما أولئك منا ولا نحن منهم، من أنكر خلق الجنة والنار فقد كذب النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وكذبنا، ولا من ولايتنا على شئ، ويخلد في نار جهنم، قال الله عز وجل: (هذه جهنم التي يكذب بها، المجرمون يطوفون بينها وبين حميم آن) وقال النبي صلى الله عليه وآله: (لما عرج بي إلى السماء أخذ بيدي جبرئيل فأدخلني الجنة فناولني من رطبها فأكلته فتحول ذلك نطفة في صلبي، فلما أهبطت إلى الأرض واقعت خديجة فحملت بفاطمة عليها السلام، ففاطمة حوراء إنسية، وكلما اشتقت إلى رائحة الجنة شممت رائحة ابنتي فاطمة عليها السلام.



Translation of relevant part: The Prophet (pbuh) said, when I was raised to the sky, Jibreel took by my hand and took me into heaven. He gave me some dates. I ate it and it turned into sperm in my loins. When I came back down to earth, I empregnated Khadijah who gave birth to Fatima. So Fatima is a human hawra’a (heavenly virgin), and whenever I missed the scent of heaven, I smelled Fatima (as).

- end -

According to their Sahih Hadith above, Fatima (ra) was born at least one year after Israa wal Miraaj, everyone knows that israa wa miraaj happened in 621 CE, according to this she was born in 622 CE.

Now according to the Shia when did 'Ali (ra) marry Fatima (ra)? let me quote from their website "al-islam":

God gave victory to Islam in the battle of Badr in the year 2 of Hijri. Two months after the battle, Fatima Zahra, the daughter of Muhammad Mustafa, and Ali, the son of Abu Talib were married.

link:http://www.*************/restatement/23.htm

So the marriage was 624 CE... How old was she ? :)


Now to prove that your Shia friend will reject the Quran and take the sayings of his scholars, you ask him two question:


1- Are the ancestors of 'Ali (ra) all Pious Muslims? or were some of them Kouffar?

2- Do Prophets forget?

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 04:31 PM
:salam:....thats too harsh brother...I assure you the ulema Maulana Abu Bilal is talking about are authentic scholars and they would not have reached the conclusion to please the propagandists.....I request you to rethink what you just posted...

We can verify what you said if we see their arguments... so let's see their arguments.

Salman_Hanafi
06-10-2011, 04:34 PM
till then you can take your post of those ulema being idiots....this is disrespectful....

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 04:43 PM
till then you can take your post of those ulema being idiots....this is disrespectful....

There u go, I edited it.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 04:49 PM
As a non muslim, it is very interesting to see so many views on this particular topic.

A sexual relationship within marriage is a very mature act and there is no child of 9 years of age whether they are physically ready to bear children or not, ready for such a thing. The innocence of a child is priceless. It needs to be protected for as long as possible.
The vast majority of females are not physically ready to bear children at this age. As decades go by the average age of the beginning of mesturation is getting lower but it is not at 9 yet, nevermind younger.

I think if everyone is honest with themselves, they would not allow their daughter to marry at this age. That is the real question people should be asking themselves. It may have been the norm in the time of the prophet but it is not now even in muslim countries.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 04:52 PM
As a non muslim, it is very interesting to see so many views on this particular topic.

A sexual relationship within marriage is a very mature act and there is no child of 9 years of age whether they are physically ready to bear children or not, ready for such a thing. The innocence of a child is priceless. It needs to be protected for as long as possible.
The vast majority of females are not physically ready to bear children at this age. As decades go by the average age of the beginning of mesturation is getting lower but it is not at 9 yet, nevermind younger.

I think if everyone is honest with themselves, they would not allow their daughter to marry at this age. That is the real question people should be asking themselves. It may have been the norm in the time of the prophet but it is not now even in muslim countries.

The Prophet SAWS let her play all she wants and he bought her toys (her entire room was decorated with toys) ect... it's not like she was washing dishes and cleaning carpets he loved her a lot and treated her in the best manner, if you read her narrations which describe her life with this man you'll see how much she loved him and how much she enjoyed being with him.

Of course the Prophet SAWS did not order us to marry at such a young age, it's totally up to you as you can rarely find anyone who marries a girl this young in our days.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 05:01 PM
He used to race her when she was small :p

Narrated 'Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (as): while she was on a journey along with the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): I had a race with him (the Prophet) and I outstripped him on my feet. When I became fleshy, (again) I had a race with him (the Prophet) and he outstripped me. He said: This is for that outstripping. (Abu Dawood Book #14, Hadith #2572)

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 05:11 PM
The Prophet SAWS let her play all she wants and he bought her toys (her entire room was decorated with toys) ect... it's not like she was washing dishes and cleaning carpets he loved her a lot and treated her in the best manner, if you read her narrations which describe her life with this man you'll see how much she loved him and how much she enjoyed being with him.

I'm not talking about washing disher or cleaning carpets either. Sexual acts are for mature adults only. A 9 year old child is not a mature adult.

I think there is a very contradictative message coming from a lot of muslims regarding this. There is huge criticism and rightly so of the sexualisation of children in the west so early in their lives and yet muslims would say that marriage and sex for a year old is ok. Very very confusing to say the least.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 05:14 PM
I'm not talking about washing disher or cleaning carpets either. Sexual acts are for mature adults only. A 9 year old child is not a mature adult.

I think there is a very contradictative message coming from a lot of muslims regarding this. There is huge criticism and rightly so of the sexualisation of children in the west so early in their lives and yet muslims would say that marriage and sex for a year old is ok. Very very confusing to say the least.

Her mother never sent her to his house until she knew her daughter was ready.

Also some members said that this issue is not agreed upon? in fact this issue was agreed upon since 1400 years ago until this day and no scholar said or hinted otherwise.

amr123
06-10-2011, 05:31 PM
I'm not talking about washing disher or cleaning carpets either. Sexual acts are for mature adults only. A 9 year old child is not a mature adult.

I think there is a very contradictative message coming from a lot of muslims regarding this. There is huge criticism and rightly so of the sexualisation of children in the west so early in their lives and yet muslims would say that marriage and sex for a year old is ok. Very very confusing to say the least.

For thousands of years, if a child (boy or girl) reaches puberty he/she is fit to be married.



Quote:

Age of Marriage in Christian Europe
In an article about Medieval times, Molloy College’s website says:
Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made
while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men
in their twenties or thirties.
(Molloy College, http://www.molloy.edu/sophia/med_ren/med_text.htm)
Puberty was linked to virginity, a highly sought after quality. We read in Judith M.
Bennet’s book Singlewomen in the European Past:
As Anthony Molho persuasively illustrates, the cultural imperative to marry
young women soon after they reached sexual maturity even prompted many
Florentine fathers to falsify their daughters' ages to give them more time to
negotiate a favorable marriage.
(Singlewomen in the European Past, p.44,
http://books.google.com/books?id=l6YNQ4uUvZ0C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=
nobility+married+early&source=web&ots=K6CD_RPNNC&sig=rug6ZIFREdsm
FAKkjPIboKsd2KI)
The History at Minnesota website indicates that the average age of marriage just 500
years ago was only 12.7 (http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/NAHUAEN3/outline.htm)
This is an average, meaning that many girls were getting married much younger than that.
Why then are the Christians up in arms about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
who married Aisha (peace be upon her) more than 1,400 years ago?

More Quote:

Range of Puberty
I have firmly established the fact that marriage at or around puberty was the norm
amongst ancient (and not so ancient) civilizations. Yet, perhaps an Islamaphobic
polemicist might argue that the average age of puberty was twelve years of age, whereas
Aisha (peace be upon her) was only nine or ten when she moved into Prophet
Muhammad’s house. Yet, this argument could is weakened easily. Yes, the average may
well have been twelve years, but surely the reader should know what the word “average”
means! Both mean (average) and median indicate values which are in the middle of a
range of numbers. Therefore, if some girls attain the age of puberty at twelve, then
others are having their periods at nine and still others at fifteen. LiveScience.com says:
There is a range, and this has been part of the problem of establishing the
"normal" age of puberty. Girls might enter full-blown puberty anytime between
ages 9 and 15.
(LiveScience.com, http://www.livescience.com/health/070904_bad_puberty.html)
So, girls will go through “full-blown puberty” at various ages, anywhere from between
nine and fifteen years of age. HealthTouch.com says:
Puberty usually starts between ages 8 to 13 in girls
(HealthTouch.com,
http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/cnoteShowLfts.asp?fname=07103
&title=PUBERTY+IN+GIRLS+&cid=HTHLTH)
Even if we look simply at menarche, we can see that the age varies greatly. A medical
journal on Cambridge.org says:
The variable age at menarche was normally distributed with an age range of 7–24
years.

(Cambridge.org,
journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=10260
HerWord.com says:
Don’t be surprised if your nine-year-old daughter will have her menarche that
early.
(HerWord.com,
http://www.herword.com/healthdesk/others/changes10.28.03.html)

faizol
06-10-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm not talking about washing disher or cleaning carpets either. Sexual acts are for mature adults only. A 9 year old child is not a mature adult.

I think there is a very contradictative message coming from a lot of muslims regarding this. There is huge criticism and rightly so of the sexualisation of children in the west so early in their lives and yet muslims would say that marriage and sex for a year old is ok. Very very confusing to say the least.

You do know that it was a custom even in the West to marry a daughter at a very young age, right? A Common Law stated that a marriage is acceptable for a girl as young as 7 years old. You may check the links for all the references on that from a few pages back.

Looking through all the criticisms against Islam since 1400 years ago till now, only during this so-called 'modern age' that the marriage of 'Aisha :anha: with the Prophet :saw: is criticized by non-muslims. The marriage never was the subject of criticism by earlier non-muslims since it was common at the time for a girl to be married at a young age.

And if you check at some talmudic teaching, it was stated that a girl as young as 3 years 1 day can be married to a man. And shockingly this was also agreed by Khomenei in shiite teaching (the same 3 years 1 day - I can't publish it though since I don't have a link to the article right now).

With the sunnah then Muslims know the laws regarding marriage permissibility (maturity and puberty age, consent from the family/bride, etc). Of course there were other benefits of 'Aisha :anha:'s marriage to Rasulullah :saw: such as hadith from 'Aisha :anha: and so forth but that's another topic altogether.

Anyway, there wasn't many confusing opinions regarding the marriage. It's either to accept the hadith, or not. And supporting arguments in accepting the hadith are overwhelming anyway, from authenticity, cultural or physiology/medical point of view.

Salman_Hanafi
06-10-2011, 05:40 PM
There u go, I edited it.

:jazak:

amr123
06-10-2011, 07:00 PM
speechless post with all references! what a slam! :mash:


:jazak:

Sister it is from a book called 'Islamophobes Glasshouse'. Its posted in the forum somewhere.

Here:

Sulaiman84
06-10-2011, 07:08 PM
:salam:

That's what happens when norms of a people's history are judged by current day cultural norms, you go way off the mark.

The post above is a slam dunk, NBA style.:D

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 07:14 PM
Masha-Allah this thread is al-Jawab al-Kafi and Fasl al-Khitab in this matter, it presents the 'Aqli and Naqli evidences.

amr123
06-10-2011, 07:15 PM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5996&d=1317924732

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 07:30 PM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5996&d=1317924732

Wait the writer is Ibn al-Hashimi? is he the same Ibn al-Hashimi from ahlelbayt?

amr123
06-10-2011, 07:35 PM
Wait the writer is Ibn al-Hashimi? is he the same Ibn al-Hashimi from ahlelbayt?

I don't know bro. Here is the original thread from sunniforum: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?40935-%28E-book%29-The-Islamaphobe-s-Glass-House-Refuting-the-Claim-that-Prophet-was-Pedophile

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 09:12 PM
For thousands of years, if a child (boy or girl) reaches puberty he/she is fit to be married.



Quote:

Age of Marriage in Christian Europe
In an article about Medieval times, Molloy College’s website says:
Women were marriageable right after puberty, marriage arrangements were made
while they were in infancy; they were wed at the age of twelve or fourteen to men
in their twenties or thirties.
(Molloy College, http://www.molloy.edu/sophia/med_ren/med_text.htm)
Puberty was linked to virginity, a highly sought after quality. We read in Judith M.
Bennet’s book Singlewomen in the European Past:
As Anthony Molho persuasively illustrates, the cultural imperative to marry
young women soon after they reached sexual maturity even prompted many
Florentine fathers to falsify their daughters' ages to give them more time to
negotiate a favorable marriage.
(Singlewomen in the European Past, p.44,
http://books.google.com/books?id=l6YNQ4uUvZ0C&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=
nobility+married+early&source=web&ots=K6CD_RPNNC&sig=rug6ZIFREdsm
FAKkjPIboKsd2KI)
The History at Minnesota website indicates that the average age of marriage just 500
years ago was only 12.7 (http://www.hist.umn.edu/~rmccaa/NAHUAEN3/outline.htm)
This is an average, meaning that many girls were getting married much younger than that.
Why then are the Christians up in arms about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)
who married Aisha (peace be upon her) more than 1,400 years ago?

More Quote:

Range of Puberty
I have firmly established the fact that marriage at or around puberty was the norm
amongst ancient (and not so ancient) civilizations. Yet, perhaps an Islamaphobic
polemicist might argue that the average age of puberty was twelve years of age, whereas
Aisha (peace be upon her) was only nine or ten when she moved into Prophet
Muhammad’s house. Yet, this argument could is weakened easily. Yes, the average may
well have been twelve years, but surely the reader should know what the word “average”
means! Both mean (average) and median indicate values which are in the middle of a
range of numbers. Therefore, if some girls attain the age of puberty at twelve, then
others are having their periods at nine and still others at fifteen. LiveScience.com says:
There is a range, and this has been part of the problem of establishing the
"normal" age of puberty. Girls might enter full-blown puberty anytime between
ages 9 and 15.
(LiveScience.com, http://www.livescience.com/health/070904_bad_puberty.html)
So, girls will go through “full-blown puberty” at various ages, anywhere from between
nine and fifteen years of age. HealthTouch.com says:
Puberty usually starts between ages 8 to 13 in girls
(HealthTouch.com,
http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/EContent_HT/cnoteShowLfts.asp?fname=07103
&title=PUBERTY+IN+GIRLS+&cid=HTHLTH)
Even if we look simply at menarche, we can see that the age varies greatly. A medical
journal on Cambridge.org says:
The variable age at menarche was normally distributed with an age range of 7–24
years.

(Cambridge.org,
journals.cambridge.org/production/action/cjoGetFulltext?fulltextid=10260
HerWord.com says:
Don’t be surprised if your nine-year-old daughter will have her menarche that
early.
(HerWord.com,
http://www.herword.com/healthdesk/others/changes10.28.03.html)

Whether my child at 9 or 12 or whatever age she reaches puberty, she is not ready for marriage mentally. Say what you want about medieval times and christian views. Thank God we dont live in those times anymore.
Are we doing God justice if we dont progress in how we live? Imagine we stayed the same.

The prophet Mohammed was obviously a very gentle special man, so for him to marry Aisha, cannot be compared to the average adult man marrying an innocent child. A grown man in 2011 who wants to marry a child and have sex with her not natural. What is wrong with chosing an adult woman and lets leave children be children.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 09:18 PM
You do know that it was a custom even in the West to marry a daughter at a very young age, right? A Common Law stated that a marriage is acceptable for a girl as young as 7 years old. You may check the links for all the references on that from a few pages back.

Looking through all the criticisms against Islam since 1400 years ago till now, only during this so-called 'modern age' that the marriage of 'Aisha :anha: with the Prophet :saw: is criticized by non-muslims. The marriage never was the subject of criticism by earlier non-muslims since it was common at the time for a girl to be married at a young age.

And if you check at some talmudic teaching, it was stated that a girl as young as 3 years 1 day can be married to a man. And shockingly this was also agreed by Khomenei in shiite teaching (the same 3 years 1 day - I can't publish it though since I don't have a link to the article right now).

With the sunnah then Muslims know the laws regarding marriage permissibility (maturity and puberty age, consent from the family/bride, etc). Of course there were other benefits of 'Aisha :anha:'s marriage to Rasulullah :saw: such as hadith from 'Aisha :anha: and so forth but that's another topic altogether.

Anyway, there wasn't many confusing opinions regarding the marriage. It's either to accept the hadith, or not. And supporting arguments in accepting the hadith are overwhelming anyway, from authenticity, cultural or physiology/medical point of view.

Of course I know about the wests history in marriage for children. So what, doesnt make it right. That has been corrected now. We have moved on.

I would love someone to address the the fact that many criticisms are made of the west today and the sexualisation of children and yet marriage of a 9 year old is permissable. Hypocritical to say the least.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 09:19 PM
Would some of the men here explain to me what is attractive about a 9 year old child?

faizol
06-10-2011, 09:22 PM
Whether my child at 9 or 12 or whatever age she reaches puberty, she is not ready for marriage mentally. Say what you want about medieval times and christian views. Thank God we dont live in those times anymore.
Are we doing God justice if we dont progress in how we live? Imagine we stayed the same.

The prophet Mohammed was obviously a very gentle special man, so for him to marry Aisha, cannot be compared to the average adult man marrying an innocent child. A grown man in 2011 who wants to marry a child and have sex with her not natural. What is wrong with chosing an adult woman and lets leave children be children.

To be mentally prepared is a relative term. Would a girl or a boy at age of 12 in Ireland be mentally the same as a girl or a boy of the same age from Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine?

To talk specifically about a girl of age 9 or 12 years old, if one wants to do a justice, one can't judge the mental development and preparedness of a girl of age 9 or 12 years old from the comfort of a studying room in front of a computer. One has to travel to other parts of the world to be able to judge such a society. For example, go to a secluded tribe in East Timor or Kurdish area and one will notice the environment and the harshness of the living conditions prepared the girls to mature sooner than those in a much more developed society.



Would some of the men here explain to me what is attractive about a 9 year old child?


I don't think anyone can give the right answer to that. Personally I can't find anything attractive of a 9 year old child. But obviously we can't compare that to the marriage of Rasullullah :saw: with 'Aisha :anha:.

Specifically in the case of 'Aisha :anha:, she was already engaged to someone else at the time when Rasullullah :saw: had a dream of marrying her.

The Prophet said to her, “You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and some-one said (to me). ‘This is your wife.’ When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, ‘If this is from Allah, it will be done.” {Bukhari :: Volume 5 :: Book 58 :: Hadith 235}

Narrated by 'Aisha :anha: herself.

Among the immediate effect of the marriage (aside from the hadith compilations and many more);

"Refuting Pagan Norms;

1-For a bad omen, Arab considered Shawwal a month prohibited for marriage. Sayyidah A’isha’s betrothal and departure from her parent’s house took place in Shawwal. This changed the ridiculous custom.

2-Another bad custom was that the Arabs did not give the hands of their daughters to those who they “called” their brothers (though were not actual brothers). This was the objection raised by Abu Bakr himself, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) made the proposal. The Prophet (Peace be upon him) then told him that a brother in faith was not an actual blood brother to be placed in the prohibited category."

Also;

"Most of the matters related to cleanliness, married relationship and other household issues have been cleared due to her narrations. She lived a long time after the death of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) and continued to teach the Ummah about matters of daily routine and great importance."

And regarding 'Aisha :anha:'s character;
"Arwa Bin Zubair says, “I did not find anyone more proficient (than Aisha ) in the knowledge of the Holy Quran, the Commandments of Halal (lawful) and Haram (prohibited), Ilmul-Ansab and Arabic poetry. That is why, even senior companions of the Prophet used to consult Aisha in resolving intricate issues”.
(Jala-ul-Afham by Ibn Qaiyem and Ibn Sa’ad, Vol.2, p.26)"

So obviously the marriage can't be compare with anyone who wants to marry a 9 year old girl nowadays.

suleimanibnsalim
06-10-2011, 09:23 PM
Wait the writer is Ibn al-Hashimi? is he the same Ibn al-Hashimi from ahlelbayt?

yes, he is indeed! where is he these days?

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 09:30 PM
To be mentally prepared is a relative term. Would a girl or a boy at age of 12 in Ireland be mentally the same as a girl or a boy of the same age from Afghanistan or Iraq or Palestine?

To talk specifically about a girl of age 9 or 12 years old, if one wants to do a justice, one can't judge the mental development and preparedness of a girl of age 9 or 12 years old from the comfort of a studying room in front of a computer. One has to travel to other parts of the world to be able to judge such a society. For example, go to a secluded tribe in East Timor or Kurdish area and one will notice the environment and the harshness of the living conditions prepared the girls to mature sooner than those in a much more developed society.

Faizol

Lets be clear about this. Are you saying that it is not permissable for a muslim child of 9 to marry if she has had a calm upbringing in a peaceful country. Does she have had to live in a war zone?

An example. Lets say Shariah law was in the Ireland. It is permissable for a 9 year old to marry?

Being exposed to war, poverty, hardship, still doesnt mean you are ready for marriage or sex.

abd7861
06-10-2011, 09:32 PM
Would some of the men here explain to me what is attractive about a 9 year old child?

Your question is faulty and so is your logic. There might not be anything attractive in a 9 year old girl or there might be. That is not the issue. The issue here is that the juristic age, if the girl meets all the Shar'i criteria, the earliest that a girl can be married is 9.

Some 9 year olds are more than ready for this. Just because such 9 year olds are not that easily found in the West does not mean that in other parts of the world they are not there and also does not mean that perchance in the future these girls might grow also in the West. It is simply a legislative point not one about carnal attractiveness.

There is absolutely nothing hypocritical about this. Let me explain what is hypocritical. Hypocritical is when you think that a fully permissible marriage of a nine year old is propagated as child molestation whereas the hundreds and thousands of teenage pregnancies that are conceived outside wedlock with the majority not even knowing the parentage is not. Now that is hypocrisy.

I hope this has clarified some of your misconceptions.

rahl404
06-10-2011, 09:33 PM
:salam:

Here is what the AMJA Permanent Fatwa Committee has to say on this: http://www.amjaonline.com/en_f_details.php?fid=78123

The answer is all combined and hard to follow so I tried to separate it to be easier to follow bellow: (hope I made it easier)


All praise is for Allaah and peace and blessings upon the Messenger of Allaah.

I shall divide my answer into three categories:
1) Presentation of the consensus of the Umma on what is reported in the two Sahih Hadeeth books [i.e. Bukhari and Muslim],
2) Expose of the mistakes of the writer in what he concluded and
3) Clarification of the issue of the marriage of Aisha .


1) The consensus of the Ummah on the authenticity of the two Sahih books:
The Umma has agreed on the authenticity of the Hadeeths collected in the two Sahih books so that people of all ages are aware of this fact, actually to believe so has become part of the collective awareness of the Muslim Ummah and many verifiers have transmitted the agreement of scholars on this; Imam al-Nawawi said: “Scholars, may Allaah bestow his mercy upon them, agreed that the most authentic book after the noble Quran is the Sahih of Bukhari and the Sahih of Muslim and the entire Ummah accepted them” [1]. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymyya said: “Under the sky, there is no book more authentic, after the Quran, except Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim”[2]. And some of the narrations that have been criticized by scholarly experts of Hadeeth are known and such narrations are not part of the consensus, regarding this Imam Ibn al-Salah said in what al-Hafith ibn Hajar quoted him as saying: “the few narrations that were criticized – in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim – are confirmed by expert scholars and are exempted from the consensus from accepting the narrations of them because there was no consensus on accepting these few narrations”[3]. However, these few Hadeeths were criticized because they were viewed as not satisfying the conditions that were set by the authors of the two Sahih books and they [some scholars] denied some words mentioned in these narrations but there is no narration in the Sahih books that does not have an authentic original narration somewhere else. If this is known, then it shows that anyone refuting or rejecting any of the two Sahih books is actually rejecting and refuting the most authentic books of Sunnah, which is an obvious means to ruin the religion and spread doubt into the hearts of Muslims upon which none would be sure of how to pray or fast or perform hajj or interact with each other since all these details are located in the Sunnah books. So, whoever denies or defames anything mentioned in the Sahih books with an evil intention, his ruling in Islam is obvious and whoever falls into that due to recklessness without any evil intention then the least we are obliged to do is describe him as a person who does not know Hadeeth who has the audacity to discuss what he does not know and what is beyond his knowledge and if this came from someone who is not from those who carry the knowledge of this religion then it is more loathsome and repulsive. And whoever says it out of his cautiousness toward religion and out of his love of the Master of Messengers who was upset by what the enemies of Islam accuse the Prophet of therefore he wanted to defend him then we hope for him, even though he is mistaken, to be rewarded for his love and jealousy but we advise him to consult scholars and verifiers before entering into any matter of religion. However, if this was mentioned during debate with non-Muslims in an attempt to narrate what has been said without making statements after clarifying the correct view and explaining it – as shall be explained in category 3 – then that may be permitted in order to receive the benefit of delivering knowledge as the section of debate is more open than the section of examination and anticipation and what can be accepted in the former section cannot be accepted in the latter one which is addressing laypeople and educating them.

2) Exposing the mistakes of the writer[4]:
A) in general, the writer, May Allaah guide him and us, aimed to refute what has been proven authentic in the most authentic Hadeeth books claiming that the narration has a weak chain of narrators then he used history books in which the narrations contained therein did not receive 1/10th of the care and examination that was given to the Hadeeth books, then he quotes narrations from these books from the same narrator that he previously rejected! He also recklessly deals with texts and is confused in his understanding of them, and even makes mistakes in quoting certain texts and sometimes quotes what did does not even exist within these texts which results in odd and awkward statements. And still after all this he has the audacity to claim that he examined all texts though he never achieved anything from that and therefore fell into erroneous mistakes. This is in addition to the fact that he quotes whatever suits him even though what he avoids, which is mentioned in the same text he quoted from, is more authentic and stronger.
B) as for his criticism of the narration by calculating the age of Aisha in comparison to the age of her sister Asmaa bint Abi Bakr, then the writer relied on a narration that is not even correct to begin with, which is the narration that the age difference between both of them was 10 years and he even claimed that all historians agree on this. This is completely incorrect because although he quoted many books that state this all these books quote the report through one narrator; Abdulrahman bin Abi al-Zinaad who is the only one who reported this information and he is also weak narrator. In his biography in Tahtheeb al-Tahtheeb: Imam Ahmad was quoted as saying: He is disturbed in his Hadeeth and Ibn Ma’een said: he is not a proof for scholars of Hadeeth and Abu Hatim said: his Hadeeth can be written but cannot be used as a proof and al-Nasaie said: his Hadeeth cannot be used as a proof.[5] and to oppose this claimed agreement of historians, in Siyar A’lam al-Nubala and in Tareekh al_Islam it mentioned that: “Asmaa was older than Aisha by more than 10 years[6] so if the whole report is based on a weak narrator whose Hadeeth cannot be used as a proof and it is opposed by another report by other historians then on what basis is it used to oppose an authentic narration? As for the death of Asmaa at age of 100 then it is from the report of Hisham bin U’rwah himself, the very same one that the writer rejected in his report.
C) as for the statement of al-Tabari that the writer understood to mean that all the children of Abu Bakr were born in the pre-Islamic era it has been misunderstood because al-Tabari said: “Abu Bakr married Qateelah in the pre-Islamic era who brought him Abdullah and Asmaa and he married in the pre-Islamic era Um Ruman who brought him Abdul Rahman and Aisha and all these four children were born from his two wives who we named in the pre-Islamic era” so if this report is assumed to be correct then al-Tabari is actually speaking about the wives i.e. that they were married before Islam and did not say that all his children were born before Islam. And if such understanding is possible then the possible understanding is referred to the certain which is what Aisha declared herself in explicit words about her age in many narrations.
D) as for calculating the age of Aisha in comparison to the age of Fatima and the claim that Fatima was born when the Prophet was 35 years old, at the time of building the Ka’aba, the writer quoted that from the book al-Isaaba but he failed to quote the other narrations and what the author of the book – alHafith ibn Hajar- deemed to be the correct view which is the report that states that Fatima was born when the Prophet was 41 years of age and that the age difference was not agreed on, al-Dhahabi actually said in Siyar A’laam al-Anbyaa: “and Aisha was amongst those who were born during Islam and she was 8 years younger than Fatima[7] and he said in the biography of Fatima “she was born a short time before revelation”[8].
E) as for his quoting from Ibn Katheer from the book al-Bidaya wal Nihaya: “amongst those women…Asmaa bint Abi Bakr and Aisha when she was young, the Islam of these people was declared during the three years when the Prophet was still preaching Islam in secret then afterward Allaah commanded him to preach it in public.” then I do not know where that is mentioned in the book, as there is nothing there that states that at all. Also, Dr. Muhamad I’marah has made a note about this previously and if that quote did actually exist in the book then how did the writer leave the words of the Tabi’een who saw Aisha in person and then take the words of some recent scholars without even stating the chain of that report.
F) as for his saying that: “it is confirmed that the Hijrah to Habasha was in the year of the time of revelation, i.e. 615 in our Georgian calendar” then he quoted: “Abu Bakr immigrated before the Hijrah of Habasha”. There is indeed a difference between a Hijra itself and the continuous immigrating of the companions and I do not know on what basis he is certain that all those who immigrated to Habasha did immigrate in the 5th year; for immigration to Habasha did not stop until the Hijra to Madina and he also made a mistake in his quote; he said: “…Abu Bakr immigrated before the Hijrah of Habsaha” while the correct statement is that “he immigrated towards the Habasha”, it appears that Abu Bakr did perform Hijrah near the time of the Hijrah to Madina because when he returned to Mecca and refused the offer of protection from Ibn al-Daghnah he gave him glad tidings and said: I was shown the place you will immigrate to, I saw a land that has a lot of palm trees that is located between two hills.
G) as for his criticism of the chain because of Hisham bin U’rwah then that is naught as the Hadeeth is reported by others besides Hisham such as al-Zuhro from Urwah from Aisha and Ibrahim from al-Aswad from Aisha and all these are experts in Fiqh and Hadeeth. Also, the Hadeeth has many narrations in most of the books of Hadeeth. As for his claim that the Hadeeth has only been reported by the people of Iraq from Hisham and that his narrations from the people of Iraq should remain under question, the answer to that is that there are also some of the people of Madina who reported it from Hisham such Abu al-Zinad Abdil Rahman bin Thikwan and his son Abdil Rahman bin Abi al-Zinad and Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Yahya bin U’rwah. And the Hadeeth was reported from him by the people of Mecca such Sufyaan bin U’waynah and from the people of the al-Rai; Jareer bin Abdilhameed al-Dabi. So as can be noted his Hadeeth has not only been reported by the people of Iraq. As for the status of Hisham, he was declared trustworthy by Yahya bin Ma’een, Ibn Habban, Abu Hatim, Ibn Hajar, al-Dhahabi and others. And he is from the narrators whose narrations exist in the two Sahih books and the Sunan books and the accepted view amongst the people of knowledge is that he did not narrate disturbed narrations; al-Dhahabi said: Hisham bin U’rwah, one of the experts, an Imam and a Hujjah but when he became excessively old his memory was weak although he was never disturbed in his narrations…[9]
H) there are many narrations that indicate the young age of Aisha at the time she married the Prophet such as the slander incident, i.e. ‘Ifk’, which happened in the 6th year H. In the Hadeeth about this incident that is reported in Sahih Bukhari; Aisha says about herself: “none found it strange that the Hawdaj [small enclosed carrier that a group of men would eventually place on top of a camel] was light when they lifted it and carried it as I was too young then. And Barirah one of her female servants said to the Prophet: I have never seen anything for which I could blame her, apart from the fact that she is a young girl who sometimes falls asleep and leaves her family's dough unprotected so that the domestic goats come and eat it and that incident took place in the 6th year of Hijrah. Also, the Hadeeth when Aisha stated that she had dolls to play with at the time she was married.
I) reasonable people do not deal with or discuss historical events without understanding the context of such events and the factors and customs that enveloped them at the time of occurrence. To judge an act as good or bad, according to reasonable people despite their faith and religion, is not an abstract that is separate from its context and the circumstances that surrounded the act.

3) Clarification of the issue of the marriage of Aisha . (I'm assuming this is where point 3 started, they didn't label it to my knowledge)
1-Some of signs that indicate that a girl of Aisha’s age would marry and was accepted as a norm of that era and place is that Aisha was proposed to by another man before the Prophet and if that was against the norms of that era and place then the enemies of the Prophet would have taken that as a reason to defame him as they tried all means to defame him.
2- The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca then consummated the marriage in Madina leaving behind the oppression and injustice of the people of Mecca and it does not make sense that he would oppose the norms and traditions of the people at that time when the situation was so difficult.
3- who is the one who married Aisha to the prophet? He was Abu Bakr who is one of the greatest leaders who affected the world therefore a man with such nobility and such a high rank would never accept humiliation for himself or for his daughter if marrying her to the Prophet at such an age would cause him and her harm and affect their reputation amongst Arabs.
4- the change in people’s norms and customs of the age of marriage no one can deny but a mentally ill person as that happens in all nations. The State of California in the United States increased the age that allows one to legally have sexual intercourse many times within only a 25 year time bracket. Until 1889 the legal age for sexual intercourse was 10 years old, then it became 14 years, then 16 years in 1897, then in 1913 it became 18 years. However, until today it is still 13 years old in the State of New Mexico and 14 years old in the States of Mississippi and Iowa[10]. Comprehend, may Allaah forgive you and me, regarding the above, that this is a nation that differs to the previous nations and it is an era that differs to that era and the legal age for marriage and for having sexual intercourse was, until recently, 10 years old. What about a different nation that lived in a different era with different norms and customs that existed 14 centuries ago? The recent extensive changes in the circumstances of the world have led to great changes in people’s customs and norms, therefore it is unfair and unwise for the people of this era to judge human history based on their current standards and norms.
5- Our problem today lies in some people who are prejudiced in the standards that they apply to all nations; as there is no difference between the Middle of Africa and the cold areas of Siberia and the Native American tribes in Latin America and the nation of China. Child labour was acceptable to them to some extent and legal until recent times, although now after they no longer required them to work after having collected all their fortunes rightly and unlawfully they began to defame and criticize the nations that still require children labour. They do not want to only their enforce standards of every living nation, but they also want to apply this on all of humanity from the moment of creation.
6- Islam is a practical religion which allows a woman to marry whenever her guardian finds it in her interest and he never allows her husband to consummate the marriage with her so long as she is not prepared physically and mentally. Yet, Islam does not set a limit on guardians as people’s norms differ as well as their needs as does each era and place and what is appropriate for it. Our grandmothers married at the age of 12 or around that age, though we do not do the same with our own daughters, also neither the Torah nor the Bible, in all its versions, sets an age for marriage.
7- The suitability of a woman to consummate the marriage happens after the woman reaches the age of puberty which at the same time allows her to have sexual intercourse without causing her harm and that differs from one woman to another and it happens around the time of puberty, so when does the woman reach the age of puberty? Modern medical science state that most women reach age of puberty between the age of 12 and 14 years old with an average of 12.75 years, but this age differs from one girl to another and from one environment to another. There are some cases when reaching age of puberty is so early that there was even a girl in Peru, in South America, who was pregnant at the age of 5 and a half [11]. Also to reach the age of puberty before age of 9 is not that rare as doctors do not even consider reaching the age of puberty at age of 7 or 8 as sickness.[12] but if it occurred when she was younger than that then she would require examination to ensure that she has no tumor or sickness that might have led to early puberty, in most cases there is no sickness involved.[13].
8- In many countries around the world and even in America, a 16 year old girl can legally have sexual intercourse and marry (even a 14 year old girl can do so as we have explained) so now we would like to ask: Could a 9 year old girl, such as Aisha at the time she was married, be like a 16 year old today in body size and features? The answer is obviously yes and this is not even based on time, location and environmental differences. Natural growth rates, not exceptional growth rates, of medicine is set between 73 as maximum and 3 as minimum and shows that the growth rates of girls today particularly in Central America vary from other places so that a nine and half year old girl’s weight is set at the level of 97 which is the same weight of a 16 year old in level 3 which is 45 kg and the height of the first is 150 cm and it is 9 cm less than the second though she is bigger than the 14 year old girl in rank . This is based on normal growth rates and pediatricians know that many of them pass their ranks above 97 and below rank 3 without suffering any sickness and all that happens now and in the US.[14].
9- the prejudice of people, due to their own inclinations, of what deems a girl suitable for marriage leads to loathsome contradictions even in the same country, as in the United States, the marriage of a 14 year old girl can be legal in some of its states and a crime in other states even if she is younger than 19 years old. Whoever marries a girl at that age they will be considered a rapist, which means if you live on the Eastern side of the borders of the two states the groom would be considered a good husband according to law but if he was to live on its Western side then he would be considered a child rapist who deserves the strongest penalty; Allaah says: {and if it was from anyone but Allaah, they would have found in it many differences and defects}.
10- Aisha herself is the one who said and she knows herself better than anyone else: “when a girl reaches the age of 9 then she is a woman” and after her marriage: Anas reported that when it was the day of the Battle of Uhud people fled the battle and left the Messenger while seeing Aisha and Um Saleem, with their sleeves rolled up, they would carry water in leather skinned bags on their backs and empty the contents into the soldiers open mouths”[15] and this proves that she grew up in a good manner and she was suitable to become a woman who can take on responsibility without being disturbed with the idea that she was married at 9 years old. It is not a surprise that some women at the age of 12 do what Anas mentioned for the growth rate differs from one person to another and from one environment to another.
11- when a child is abused he suffers terrible physiological consequences and if he managed to overcome them then it is rare that would become a genius and if he did manage to become a genus then it cannot be imagined that he would preach the message of the one who abused him and spread it amongst the people. So, did any of that happen to the mother of believers Aisha? Or was she leading a nation and teaching them the message of the Prophet whom she lived the rest of her life in loyalty to him and honoring his name as the beloved one who was a cause of her joy and pride in this life and the life hereafter. Were there any women happier than her in marriage as her with him? Surely not.
12- what is surprising to see from the people of the book is that they use this matter to defame the Prophet yet none of their books; neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament include even one verse setting an appropriate age for marriage. On the contrary, we find in the Bible that Moses said: kill now every male child and every woman who fornicated with a man but all the female children did not sleep with a man let them remain alive” so Moses in this section allowed sleeping with the female children of captives. Also, was not Aisha even much better than the woman who was mentioned in the Torah telling her story about Prophet David, when David became old, they used to clothe him with everything but he still felt cold so his slaves suggested that he find a virgin girl to stand before the king then hug him and sit in his lap so he can be warm, they searched until they found one who brought her to the king. She was very pretty and she worked to serve her and looked after him but he did not recognize her. In the Psalms David is described as the son of God for that we say to them in return: Aisha indeed lived a comfortable, contented, blissful life with the Master of Creation who would race her and her him and who she would joke with and he with her and he taught her what would make her a master and proud during her lifetime and if the Prophet was only interested in his lust then why did he leave her with her father for three years and then consummate the marriage? And if she was the only one wanted why did the Prophet leave his wives when they asked for more wealth until it reached the level that he gave them the choice [either to stay or leave] Allaah, Most High says: {O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing, And if you desire Allaah and His Apostle and the latter abode, then surely Allaah has prepared for the doers of good among you a mighty reward} [al-Ahzaab: 28-29], is it not known that a person who is lustful pleases his wives and spends unconditionally on them? Or would he just make them belittle this life and its adornment though he can live as a king? O Allaah, your peace and blessings be upon the Prophet and be pleased with the Mothers of the Believers who chose You and chose Your Messenger and chose the hereafter. Some Muslims you find them rushing to make up excuses and justifications whenever there is a doubt or a whisper that the Shaytan suggests to an enemy or an arrogant ignorant. And if they could just search and anticipate goodness then they would have found that the book of their Lord and the authentic Sunnah of their Prophet is a source of pride and honor and no part of it has anything to apologize for or be ashamed of. O Allaah guides us and guides all Your slaves. May the peace and blessings be upon the last of the Messengers of Allaah and the master of Your creation; Muhammad.



[1]: Sharh Sahih Muslim,
[2]: al-Fatawaa: 18/74,
[3]: Hadyil Salri: 505,
[4] I benefited in this reply from two articles written by Muhammad Imarah and researcher Muahmood Abduh, so may Allaah reward them with all that is good.
[5]: Tahdheeba l-Tahtheeb: 6/127
[6]: al-Sytar: 3/522.
[7] Siyar a’lam al-Nubala: 3/429,
[8] al-Siyar: 3/417,
[9] Mizaan al-I’ttidaal: 4/301-302.
[10] Nelson Textbook of Pediatrics, 15th Ed, Page 1579-1580,
[11] http://www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberone.htm and see also: Fiqh studies in current medical cases that was written by group of scholars and research about menses, childbirth and pregnancy in the scale of Fiqh and medicine; page 137 – 142 where Dr. Umar al-Ashqar mentioned that there was a 2 year old who reached age of puberty.
[12]: puberty according to doctors is different than menses as it occurs according to them one or year years earlier.
[13] Saenger, Paul. Overview of precocious puberty. In: UpToDate, Rose, BD (Ed), UpToDate, Waltham, MA, 2007.
[14] http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhanes/growthcharts/set2clinical/cj41l071.pdf, [15]: Sahih Muslim: 3/1443.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 09:35 PM
yes, he is indeed! where is he these days?

I don't know but he seems to be defending this deen so wherever he is may Allah reward him.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 09:42 PM
Would some of the men here explain to me what is attractive about a 9 year old child?

I will rely on my memory in this matter, I think the Prophet SAWS married 'Aisha (as) because:

1- He saw that he was married to her in heaven in his vision, so he knew he was going to marry her.

2- He loved her father a lot.

I know you're not asking about this but I just thought I'd mention it.

The thought of marrying a young girl is interesting, I mean it's like you're educating her and teaching her as she matures in your house and knows you perfectly, the bond that is formed should be pretty strong... definitely different than a 40 year old marrying a 35 year old... just a thought.

faizol
06-10-2011, 09:55 PM
Faizol

Lets be clear about this. Are you saying that it is not permissable for a muslim child of 9 to marry if she has had a calm upbringing in a peaceful country. Does she have had to live in a war zone?

An example. Lets say Shariah law was in the Ireland. It is permissable for a 9 year old to marry?

Being exposed to war, poverty, hardship, still doesnt mean you are ready for marriage or sex.

Shariah law in my country stated the minimum age to get married is 16 years old. As for the case of Ireland, that depends on the shariah law formulated in your place. Would it be 9 years old? May be not.

As per being exposed to hardship, it's a known nature that hardship teaches man/woman to mature more quickly.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 09:59 PM
Your question is faulty and so is your logic. There might not be anything attractive in a 9 year old girl or there might be. That is not the issue. The issue here is that the juristic age, if the girl meets all the Shar'i criteria, the earliest that a girl can be married is 9.

Some 9 year olds are more than ready for this. Just because such 9 year olds are not that easily found in the West does not mean that in other parts of the world they are not there and also does not mean that perchance in the future these girls might grow also in the West. It is simply a legislative point not one about carnal attractiveness.

There is absolutely nothing hypocritical about this. Let me explain what is hypocritical. Hypocritical is when you think that a fully permissible marriage of a nine year old is propagated as child molestation whereas the hundreds and thousands of teenage pregnancies that are conceived outside wedlock with the majority not even knowing the parentage is not. Now that is hypocrisy.

I hope this has clarified some of your misconceptions.

My thoughts on your logic is the same.

All of these teenage pregnancies that you talk about happen because of lack of morals on the part their parents and in most cases the father is also a teenager.

Anyway that is beside the point of what we are talking about. Marriage is a relationship. Emotional and physical. I know one thing for sure, this will never be accepted in the west in 2011 or anytime soon. In actual fact, there is growing movement to fight the sexualisation of children. So there will never be marriage at that age.

A juristic age under Shariah still means it can happen, Would you marry a 9 year old? Would you allow your 9 year old daughter to marry?

I notice here that we are not talking about 9 year old boys for marriage.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 10:04 PM
Shariah law in my country stated the minimum age to get married is 16 years old. As for the case of Ireland, that depends on the shariah law formulated in your place. Would it be 9 years old? May be not.

As per being exposed to hardship, it's a known nature that hardship teaches man/woman to mature more quickly.

What I am asking you is: If Shariah law was in Ireland and it was permissable to marry at 9 years old, would it then not be permissable if the child had an innocent upbringing. What is the test for mental readiness?

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 10:07 PM
I will rely on my memory in this matter, I think the Prophet SAWS married 'Aisha (as) because:

1- He saw that he was married to her in heaven in his vision, so he knew he was going to marry her.

2- He loved her father a lot.

I know you're not asking about this but I just thought I'd mention it.

The thought of marrying a young girl is interesting, I mean it's like you're educating her and teaching her as she matures in your house and knows you perfectly, the bond that is formed should be pretty strong... definitely different than a 40 year old marrying a 35 year old... just a thought.

Thank you for that information.

It is the job of the parents to educate and guide her, to prepare her for marriage, or for when the time comes and she decides she is ready herself.

faizol
06-10-2011, 10:14 PM
My thoughts on your logic is the same.

All of these teenage pregnancies that you talk about happen because of lack of morals on the part their parents and in most cases the father is also a teenager.

Anyway that is beside the point of what we are talking about. Marriage is a relationship. Emotional and physical. I know one thing for sure, this will never be accepted in the west in 2011 or anytime soon. In actual fact, there is growing movement to fight the sexualisation of children. So there will never be marriage at that age.

A juristic age under Shariah still means it can happen, Would you marry a 9 year old? Would you allow your 9 year old daughter to marry?

I notice here that we are not talking about 9 year old boys for marriage.

You can't make a generalization. The shariah law formulation is not up to an individual to do. I can't go and marry a 9 year old child on my whim and cite the case of Rasulullah :saw: for example. So that's already an error on your part in making that generalization. Each country has their own Islamic scholars who should formulate the shariah law within the boundary of the sunnah left behind by the Prophet :saw:.

About the 'movements', there are plenty of movements nowadays, everything from womens right (which of course would include lesbianism and such, among other things. But not every of the members might agree with that). Do you know that there's also a movement to legalize incest in Switzerland right now?

Plus, bestiality is an industry in Sweden, catering for customers mostly from Norway. Though I'm not sure how big the industry is. But the point is, there are all sort of movements nowadays. Would make that right? That surely depends on your frame of value system. For a Muslim, surely we will oppose the goal of that movement.

And exploiting children for sex is definitely opposed by all practising Muslims. The case of 'Aisha :anha:'s marriage to Rasullullah :saw: is not an excuse for marrying a 9 year old child (especially since there are also other shari'i requirements that need to be fulfilled that comes with it).

abd7861
06-10-2011, 10:15 PM
My thoughts on your logic is the same.

All of these teenage pregnancies that you talk about happen because of lack of morals on the part their parents and in most cases the father is also a teenager.

Anyway that is beside the point of what we are talking about. Marriage is a relationship. Emotional and physical. I know one thing for sure, this will never be accepted in the west in 2011 or anytime soon. In actual fact, there is growing movement to fight the sexualisation of children. So there will never be marriage at that age.

A juristic age under Shariah still means it can happen, Would you marry a 9 year old? Would you allow your 9 year old daughter to marry?

I notice here that we are not talking about 9 year old boys for marriage.

You mentioned the supposed hypocrisy that you saw that is why I mentioned the real hypocrisy.

I am unable to marry a 9 year old girl as I need to respect the laws of the country that I am in. However, if I was living in a truly Sharia environment and it so happened that the wife that I chose was a 9 year old that fulfilled all of the Shar'i requirements then yes I might consider it. It is simply the minimum juristic age that is allowed by Islam. What makes 16 the right age and not 15 years and 364 days? Many people say that even 16 is too young and that the girl is still too immature. It is a subjective issue.

Please provide proof for your assertion that all these teenage preganancies happen due to their parents lack of morals.

We are not discussing the shar'i requirements for boys. The subject matter is related to Hadhrat Aa-isha :anha:'s marriage.

Just becasue you cannot understand that the minimum juristic age of marriage for girls is 9 (IF they meet all shar'i requirements) then that does not mean that is wrong or it is sexualising young girls.

ftannouss
06-10-2011, 10:23 PM
You mentioned the supposed hypocrisy that you saw that is why I mentioned the real hypocrisy.

I am unable to marry a 9 year old girl as I need to respect the laws of the country that I am in. However, if I was living in a truly Sharia environment and it so happened that the wife that I chose was a 9 year old that fulfilled all of the Shar'i requirements then yes I might consider it. It is simply the minimum juristic age that is allowed by Islam. What makes 16 the right age and not 15 years and 364 days? Many people say that even 16 is too young and that the girl is still too immature. It is a subjective issue.

Please provide proof for your assertion that all these teenage preganancies happen due to their parents lack of morals.

We are not discussing the shar'i requirements for boys. The subject matter is related to Hadhrat Aa-isha :anha:'s marriage.

Just becasue you cannot understand that the minimum juristic age of marriage for girls is 9 (IF they meet all shar'i requirements) then that does not mean that is wrong or it is sexualising young girls.

What is wrong with the age of 25 or 30 for marraige, why is everyone is such a rush to get to the next stage. That is the trouble these days.

Generally teenage pregnancies happen as a result of broken homes, absue in the home, alcoholism in the parents, no discipline, no respect, no fear of parents, parents trying to be their childs friend rather than parent. Never any discussion about the presence of God in everyday life. The list goes on and on.

So what would appeal to you about having a 9 year old wife, what conversation could you have with her, would you find her sexually attractive, this is a question that i cant seem to get an answer on.

abd7861
06-10-2011, 10:28 PM
What is wrong with the age of 25 or 30 for marraige, why is everyone is such a rush to get to the next stage. That is the trouble these days.

Generally teenage pregnancies happen as a result of broken homes, absue in the home, alcoholism in the parents, no discipline, no respect, no fear of parents, parents trying to be their childs friend rather than parent. Never any discussion about the presence of God in everyday life. The list goes on and on.

So what would appeal to you about having a 9 year old wife, what conversation could you have with her, would you find her sexually attractive, this is a question that i cant seem to get an answer on.

Sister, what I would do is of no consequence to the formulation of the laws of the Shariah. The original purpose of this post was to discuss the accusations that are thrown at The Prophet :saw: on the age he got married to Aa-isha :anha:. I explained that she was an exceptional lady. The age of 9 is not the age that everybody should get married at. It is merely the juristic age set by the Shariah. That is all.

In Islam Rasulullah :saw: has encouraged strongly for young people to become married as soon as they are able to. It does not take much deliberation to understand the hikmah (wisdom) behind this exhortation.

All these teenage pregnancies that happen could have been perfectly legitimate marriages with a fully accountable marriage taking full responsibility of the child out of such a communion. However, due to man made laws and the absolute lack of morals due to such a promiscuous society as you so rightly state this is not possible.

What I find sexually attractive makes not a jot of difference to the laws of the Shariah.

TripolySunni
06-10-2011, 10:33 PM
Ok I feel that this thread is going somewhere it's not supposed to go, so let me say this:

We have agreed as Ahlul-Sunnah and the people of proofs that this marriage took place as described, back then when the Prophet SAWS married her the society that they lived in accepted this because it was not uncommon, now a question... would the Prophet SAWS avoid this marriage at that time or delay it if his society were to consider this a detestable and shameful act? according to the evidence the Prophet SAWS was a part of that society and he did in fact take into consideration what the people would say and what the outcomes would be, if you all remember the story of his adoptive son's wife? Allah ordered him to marry her and he delayed it so Allah sent him a warning and told him not to fear the people, in our case Allah did not order him to marry 'Aisha (ra) so if he found that the society would find this shameful then at least he would have waited 3-4 years more before marrying her. However, since this was more of a norm at the time the marriage took place and no one said anything about it... until around 50 years back when orientalists raised this point and some still raise it until this day and sadly some "westernized" Muslims fell for it.

Is marrying a nine year old Halal? it certainly is since the Prophet SAWS did it.

Now the point I want to make is this,

Definitely we cannot forbid that which is halal and marrying a nine year old there is no harm in it BUT it is not necessary and very unlikely to occur in our days, some societies in some Islamic countries would find this matter strange and shocking so if you live in such a society you should avoid marrying a girl this young just to save yourself and your future-wife and both your families from all that cruel and horrible talk of the people from your society.

That's all I have to say about this matter Incha-Allah, I hope I didn't make any mistakes may Allah forgive me if I did.

XTREME
06-10-2011, 11:18 PM
Stop it please!

Now I am feeling guilty, why I made this thread.

faizol
06-10-2011, 11:20 PM
Age of consent in non-muslim countries (for comparison);

Bolivia - puberty
Spain - 13 years old
Mexico - They have local laws that legalized a sexual relationship which vary from the time of puberty up to 14 years old in some places.

Japan - 13 years old
The national age of consent in Japan is 13 as specified by the Japanese Penal Code Articles 176 and 177.However, prefectures can have ordinances that prohibit sexual activities with any minor under 18.

in Connecticut
Connecticut recognizes that minors who are at least 13 can consent to sexual activity if (and only if) there is less than a 3-year age difference. For example:
A 13-year-old can consent to any 15-year-old.

Connecticut also recognizes that minors under 13 are released from criminal liability as to consensual sexual activity if (and only if) there is less than a 2-year age difference. For example:
A 12-year-old can consent to any 13-year old.

South Korea - 13 years old
The age of consent in South Korea is technically 13 but practically 19.
According to section 305 of the Criminal Law of South Korea, it is a criminal offense to engage in any sexual act with a minor under the age of 13.

Austria - 14 years old.

Seriously I find it hypocritical for non-muslims especially to criticize the marriage of 'Aisha :anha: with the Prophet :saw: 1400 years ago.

rahl404
07-10-2011, 01:58 AM
It was nothing more than a man who got married to a woman!

Aishah (raa) was young when they conducted the marriage contract, but they did not consummate the marriage until she became old enough to marry.

It is unfortunate that some people exaggerate in criticizing others who have a legitimate marriage, who spread morality, chastity and modesty in their society, while not doing the same to those who commit adultery, cheat on their spouses, and even legitimize homosexuality!

-Dr. Main Khalid Al-Qudah

http://www.amjaonline.com/en_f_details.php?fid=77252

abdulwahhab
07-10-2011, 02:53 AM
:salam:

'Aisha :anha: was married at the age of 6 and went to live with Rasoolullah :saw: when she hit puberty at the age of 9. So technically, the age of marriage is whenever a woman hits puberty.


hat is wrong with the age of 25 or 30 for marraige, why is everyone is such a rush to get to the next stage. That is the trouble these days.

That is completely wrong. Why do you not see teen, extramarital pregnancies in cultures that practice early marriage? Why do you not see unmarried women rearing children in cultures that practice early marriage? Marriages make the man responsible for his behavior.

Furthermore, it is difficult for some women to understand how men feel. The early men get married, the less likelihood that they'll be involved in premarital physical relationships. The West has normalized the behavior of a prostitute, where it is perfectly okay for a woman to have engaged in multiple sexual relations and encounters with various different partners before marrying. This is not allowed in Islam.

janaveronikazahra
07-10-2011, 06:29 AM
If the west would really fight misusing kids, it would not allow all the models in modeling and kids in movie industry.

mubakr
28-10-2011, 12:58 AM
Salam Alaikum

I want to get in touch with anyone who strongly doubts the accuracy of hadith tradition which say that Mother Aisha got married at nine. How do we send personal messages to forum users?

JazakAllah khair