Wahhabis Always Quote This Hadith About Allah Being Above

[Omar HH]

And in a long Hadith found in Saheeh Muslim, it is narrated that the companion Mu`awiyah ibn al-Hakam, (Radhiallaahu Anhu) slapped his servant girl who used to tend his sheep, and as a result when to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and asked what should be done as an atonement for having slapped her. The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) replied, "Bring her to me" so Mu`awiyah brought her to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam). The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) then asked her, "Where is Allaah?" and she replied "Above the Sky" then the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam ) asked her, "Who am I?" and she replied, "You are Allaah’s Messenger", so the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) said, "Free her, for verily she is a true believer." (Saheeh Muslim, Vol 1, Hadith #1094, English Translation)

I don't know though, it actually seems pretty convincing. He's :saw: asking her "where is Allah" thats like the only place (i think at least) we see the question - and the answer is above the sky?

But I know he's wrong because Ahlul Sunnah's history is contrary, I was just wondering what other hadith there were and the explanation of this hadith.

[optics]

Shaykh Nuh went into great detail about this narration in his famous article:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/inthesky.htm


From the Article, Shaykh Nuh quotes Imam Nawawi:
------------------------------------------------

Imam Nawawi says of this hadith:

This is one of the "hadiths of the attributes," about which scholars have two positions. The first is to have faith in it without discussing its meaning, while believing of Allah Most High that "there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him" (Qur'an 42:11), and that He is exalted above having any of the attributes of His creatures. The second is to figuratively explain it in a fitting way, scholars who hold this position adducing that the point of the hadith was to test the slave girl: Was she a monotheist, who affirmed that the Creator, the Disposer, the Doer, is Allah alone and that He is the one called upon when a person making supplication (du'a) faces the sky--just as those performing the prayer (salat) face the Kaaba, since the sky is the qibla of those who supplicate, as the Kaaba is the qibla of those who perform the prayer--or was she a worshipper of the idols which they placed in front of themselves? So when she said, In the sky, it was plain that she was not an idol worshipper (Sahih Muslim bi Sharh al-Nawawi. 18 vols. Cairo 1349/1930. Reprint (18 vols. in 9). Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1401/1981, 5.24).

Shaykh Nuh writes:

It is noteworthy that Imam Nawawi does not mention understanding the hadith literally as a possible scholarly position at all. This occasions surprise today among some Muslims, who imagine that what is at stake is the principle of accepting a single rigorously authenticated (sahih) hadith as evidence in Islamic faith (`aqida), for this hadith is such a single hadith, of those termed in Arabic ahad, or "conveyed by a single chain of transmission", as opposed to being mutawatir or "conveyed by so many chains of transmission that it is impossible it could have been forged".

[faqir]

:salam:

see also:

[faqir]

There are various other articles already posted in this section of the forum which may also help in this regard.

[Omar HH]

I just really don't get it though. Is it REALLY possible that the Wahhabis totally ignored the interpretations of ALL of these scholars and interpreted literally? Surely there has to be someone else who interpreted that literally. Hmm..

[Siraaj]

With all due respect to Shaykh Nuh, he's built a strawman and then he's burned it. Salafis do not say that Allah (SWT) is "in the sky."

What they say is that He's above His Throne as befits Him, and His Throne is not "in the sky."

If someone could point me to a resource that Salafis use that say Allah (SWT) is "in the sky", I would greatly appreciate it. Also, please note that the English translation the brother uses from above says "Above the sky", not "in the sky."

Siraaj

[Omar HH]

With all due respect to Shaykh Nuh, he's built a strawman and then he's burned it. Salafis do not say that Allah (SWT) is "in the sky."

What they say is that He's above His Throne as befits Him, and His Throne is not "in the sky."

If someone could point me to a resource that Salafis use that say Allah (SWT) is "in the sky", I would greatly appreciate it. Also, please note that the English translation the brother uses from above says "Above the sky", not "in the sky."

Siraaj

Personally I do somewhat agree with you. There's a ton of Wahhabis who do not say Allah is "in the sky" but the Wahhabi site I got it from specifically said this:

4. THE ISLAMIC BELIEF: Allaah is above the heavens

Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta`aalaa) says in the Qur'ân -

"Do you feel secure, that He (Allaah), who is above the heavens, will not cause the earth to sink with you." (Qur'ân, Chapter 67, Verse 16).

And in a long Hadith found in Saheeh Muslim, it is narrated that the companion Mu`awiyah ibn al-Hakam, (Radhiallaahu Anhu) slapped his servant girl who used to tend his sheep, and as a result when to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) and asked what should be done as an atonement for having slapped her. The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) replied, "Bring her to me" so Mu`awiyah brought her to the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam). The Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) then asked her, "Where is Allaah?" and she replied "Above the Sky" then the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam ) asked her, "Who am I?" and she replied, "You are Allaah’s Messenger", so the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) said, "Free her, for verily she is a true believer." (Saheeh Muslim, Vol 1, Hadith #1094, English Translation)

THE NAQSHBANDI BELIEF: Allaah is Everywhere
On page 13 of the book Haqiqat ul Haqqani it reads,

"Allaah Almighty is everywhere but specially in the Baitullaah as He has Himself called it the house of Allaah. For it to be called the house of the Lord, the Lord of the house must be in it."

The concept of Allaah being everywhere is not Islaamic as the above Qur’aanic Aayah and the authentic hadith confirm. Indeed if Allaah was everywhere then there would be no need for the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) to go up through the seven skies on the night of Mi`raaj to meet Allaah - he would have been in the direct presence of Allaah in his very own house.

http://www.*****************/sufism/naqshbandi_tareeqah_unveiled.htm

[Abdur_Rahman]

Personally I do somewhat agree with you. There's a ton of Wahhabis who do not say Allah is "in the sky" but the Wahhabi site I got it from specifically said this:

http://www.*****************/sufism/naqshbandi_tareeqah_unveiled.htm


:salam:

Honestly, if we take the time out and reduce the log on time to "sites" and therefore establish a dialouge with a person who adhere to the salafi dawah, i'm sure you'll probably receive a totally different and unbiased statements.

it gets very troublesome when people constantly jumping sites and making claims that...."these particular people believe in this" or "these particular people beleive in that". I would say is do more "thorough" research instead of going to salafisbelievethisandsaythat.com

:)

[optics]

With all due respect to Shaykh Nuh, he's built a strawman and then he's burned it. Salafis do not say that Allah (SWT) is "in the sky."

What they say is that He's above His Throne as befits Him, and His Throne is not "in the sky."

If someone could point me to a resource that Salafis use that say Allah (SWT) is "in the sky", I would greatly appreciate it. Also, please note that the English translation the brother uses from above says "Above the sky", not "in the sky."

Siraaj


I believe you are a bit confused. Salafi's do proclaim to hold that Allah is in the sky, however, while at the same time they claim it is permissable to say Allah is in the sky, they claim he is not contained by it.

Siraaj, here is the resource (******************.com aka spubs.com):

From http://spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MSC06&articleID=MSC060002&articlePages=1

"Shaikh ul-Islaam (ibn Taymiyya) said in 'Bayaan Talbees ul-Jahmiyyah' (1/559), "And when it is firmly established in the souls of those being addressed that Allaah is the Exalted, the Most High (al-'Aliyy al-A'laa), that He is above everything, then that which is understood from His saying that He is "in the sky (fis-Samaa)" [Mulk 67:16] is that He is high and raised and that He is above every single thing. Likewise the slave-girl, when he (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said to her, 'Where is Allaah?', replied, 'In the sky (fis-Samaa)' and she intended (by this) Allaah's highness and being above and over everything (al-'Uluww) but without designating for Him a created body and His containment in it."

He goes further on to discuss how Allah must exist outside of the boundaries of our universe (which if you go high enough into the 'sky' you could reach), where space and direction have no meaning.

Again, this is all the result of literal interpretation regarding the location of Allah. If the Salafi's you speak to proclaim otherwise, they dont understand their own aqida.

[Hamood]

a Salafi friend of mine points up towards the sky with his finger and says thats where Allah is .... and he uses a hadith to back that up somehow. Its probably misinterpretation as usual.

[Siraaj]

I believe you are a bit confused. Salafi's do proclaim to hold that Allah is in the sky, however, while at the same time they claim it is permissable to say Allah is in the sky, they claim he is not contained by it.

Siraaj, here is the resource (******************.com aka spubs.com):

From http://spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?subsecID=MSC06&articleID=MSC060002&articlePages=1

"Shaikh ul-Islaam (ibn Taymiyya) said in 'Bayaan Talbees ul-Jahmiyyah' (1/559), "And when it is firmly established in the souls of those being addressed that Allaah is the Exalted, the Most High (al-'Aliyy al-A'laa), that He is above everything, then that which is understood from His saying that He is "in the sky (fis-Samaa)" [Mulk 67:16] is that He is high and raised and that He is above every single thing. Likewise the slave-girl, when he (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said to her, 'Where is Allaah?', replied, 'In the sky (fis-Samaa)' and she intended (by this) Allaah's highness and being above and over everything (al-'Uluww) but without designating for Him a created body and His containment in it."

He goes further on to discuss how Allah must exist outside of the boundaries of our universe (which if you go high enough into the 'sky' you could reach), where space and direction have no meaning.

Again, this is all the result of literal interpretation regarding the location of Allah. If the Salafi's you speak to proclaim otherwise, they dont understand their own aqida.

From the link you provided:

The basis of this matter and its essence is that Shaikh ul-Islaam - may Allaah have mercy upon him - affirms in his books Allaah's highness above His creation and that He is above His heavens and His Throne - free is He from imperfection - just as He described Himself, and he makes it clear that this is the saying of the Imaams of the Sunnah, and of the Scholars of the Sharee'ah without any exception. In fact he quotes the concensus from more than one person, as will be mentioned in detail.

This is just the introductory paragraph. I've highlighted points of interest. What do you think about those?

Also, regarding the quote that you used, this does not say Allah (SWT) is in the sky at all.

Siraaj

[Siraaj]

I am a former Salafi, and used to sit in the majalis of Dr. Bilal Philips, in Dubai. Incidentally, the Salafiyyah do believe in tajsim. At least Philips and his ilk do. So Sheikh Nuh is not really building a strawman.

Believing in tajsim does not imply one believes Allah (SWT) is in the sky. As quoted above, one can also believe Allah (SWT) is "everywhere".

I'm saying, regardless of whether or not one regards it as tajsim, salafis don't believe Allah (SWT) is "in the sky."

Did Bilal Phillips tell you Allah (SWT) was in the sky? That would be a relevant point. If you could provide evidence of this that we could all reference, that would be great.

Siraaj

[Siraaj]

a Salafi friend of mine points up towards the sky with his finger and says thats where Allah is .... and he uses a hadith to back that up somehow. Its probably misinterpretation as usual.

Shaykh Nuh, in the previous link, quotes a variation on the hadith in question in which the woman does not say anything, but rather, points up at the sky, and the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything against this.

Siraaj

[Hamood]

Shaykh Nuh, in the previous link, quotes a variation on the hadith in question in which the woman does not say anything, but rather, points up at the sky, and the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything against this.

Siraaj

If you read the whole thing ... he explains the hadith and its correct figuraritve interpretation. And also, discusses why this hadith does not establish a point of aqidah as the salafi's suggest.

[Siraaj]

If you read the whole thing ... he explains the hadith and its correct figuraritve interpretation. And also, discusses why this hadith does not establish a point of aqidah as the salafi's suggest.

Yes, I did read that, however, that was not my point.

My point is that your salafi friend simply copied the woman's gesture that the Prophet (SAW) did not disapprove of. Is that wrong?

Siraaj

[Hamood]

No he didn't simply copy, he misused that hadith to say that Allah is 'literally' in the sky in direction of UP (where the finger points) whereas Shaykh Nuh has explained it to be a figurative expression.

[Siraaj]

It's unfortunate that so many of you have locked yourselves in this "they think Allah (SWT) is in the sky" mindset. Did he say that he believed Allah (SWT) was in the sky? Did you ask him this specifically, or are you interpreting what you think he meant according to your understanding of the salafi aqeedah?

Siraaj

[Muawiyah]

Sr Siraaj, many of the big Salafi `ulama have made statements that clearly show their mujassim beliefs. For example look at Shaykh Badi ud Deen Sindhi's fatwa against praying behind Ahnaf where he expresses his displeasure at Mulla `Ali Qari's statement that the fawqiyyah of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is not the Fawqiyyah of makan.This shows that Shaykh Sindhi believed that the fawqiyyah of Allah Ta'ala is makani.

[Siraaj]

Sr Siraaj, many of the big Salafi `ulama have made statements that clearly show their mujassim beliefs. For example look at Shaykh Badi ud Deen Sindhi's fatwa against praying behind Ahnaf where he expresses his displeasure at Mulla `Ali Qari's statement that the fawqiyyah of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala is not the Fawqiyyah of makan.This shows that Shaykh Sindhi believed that the fawqiyyah of Allah Ta'ala is makani.

*sigh*

I'm a brother, not a sister :$

My points have REALLY not been about whether anyone is committing tajsim, or if Allah (SWT) has a direction, space, or any other such matter.

I'm simply talking about the sky. Perhaps when you say sky and I say sky, we're meaning two different things. What is your definition of the word "sky"?

Siraaj

[Kareem]

i think he meant 'sir' not sister lol

[faqir]

For an example of a reply to the [non] question "Where is Allah?" by the Salafis, click HERE (http://muslimconverts.com/e-books/Where_is_Allah.htm)


[This article [also found on many other "salafi" sites blocked by the mods eg. allaahuakbar . net ] is full of fabricated quotes and misinterpreted ayaat and hadith that have been discussed on this forum elsewhere - the sad thing is that this is being fed to muslim converts! NOTE: we do not believe that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is everywhere! In fact, for us this is just as ludicrous as suggesting any other location for Allah]

[abdul shafi'i]

as-salamu alaykum

Umm Salama the Prophets wife said the following about 'istiwa' as quoted by ibn Hajar in "fath Al-Bari":the establishment is not unknown(ghayr majhul) and its modality is inconceivable in the mind(ghayr ma'qul) one does not ask "How" about him:"How" is inapplicable to him(ibn Hajar.fath al-bari)


Imam Abu Hanifah says in his Wasiyya:"Had He been in a place and needing to sit
and rest before creating the Throne,then the question"where was Allah" would have applied to Him,which is impossible,we assert that Allah is established on the Throne without His need(haja)nor settlement(istiqrar)upon it,for He it is Who preserves the Throne and other than it without needing any of them


Imam Shafi'i states in his Al-fiqh al akbar:whoever says:al-Rahmanu ala al-arsh istawa,it is said to him:This verse is one of the mutashabih(ambiguous matter) concerning which one is preplexed to give an answer,and the same is said regarding similar verses,


Imam Abu Mansur Ibn Asakir says in his "Aqida" it must not be said:when was He,or wher was He,or how was He.He exists without a place.

Shaykh Abd al-Ghani al-Nabulusi's statement:"whoever believes that Allah permeates the Heavens and the Earth,or that he is a body sitting on His Throne,is a disbeliever,even if he thinks he is a muslim

insha Alllah i hope you brothers benfit from this

[Siraaj]

Someone please define "sky" in the context of this discussion. Thanks!

Siraaj

[Hamood]

Someone please define "sky" in the context of this discussion. Thanks!

Siraaj

If you go outside and look up you will being seeing it or if you point with your finger (as the slave girl did in the hadith being discussed here) up it will be pointing the sky.

[Abd al Batin]

salam aleykoum

may I just add that the salafis do not say Allah is "in" the sky in english (or in french for that matter lol) they say He is "fi sama" which precisely may be translated as "in the sky"

so the point of shaykh Nuh is quite true...

but some salafis are quite more "cunning" as they say He is "fi sama", but aslo that He is not in a place.

what they say is that Allah is not in a place but that He is "above" places and "above" His Trone.

they say that over all things there is the throne surrounding all creation and being the last creature of all creation.

and that beyond that there is no direction nor space as it is not creation, but only Allah. so Allah is not in His creation but is above the heavens and above the throne.

that what salafis say here in the french speaking world.

this interpretation seems quite odd to me... what to respond to that?

barakallahufikum for any help provided.

oh and sorry to up old thread but I need answers badly inshallah ta'ala

wa salam

[Crono Devir]

I just really don't get it though. Is it REALLY possible that the Wahhabis totally ignored the interpretations of ALL of these scholars and interpreted literally? Surely there has to be someone else who interpreted that literally. Hmm..

certain people have a diaease in them, and they want to believe what is wrong, and after all, it is the will of Allah.

[sunnimale]

Assalam alaikum
Iam a new member to his forum( iam not much aware of the posting rules and method) .Found time to read this thread and would like to make some remarks
originally posted by OMAR
"
The concept of Allaah being everywhere is not Islaamic as the above Qur’aanic Aayah and the authentic hadith confirm. Indeed if Allaah was everywhere then there would be no need for the Prophet (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) to go up through the seven skies on the night of Mi`raaj to meet Allaah - he would have been in the direct presence of Allaah in his very own house."
REPLY
To say that ALLAH is physically located/ confined above the sky is agaist the aqedha of ahle sunnah wal jammah.Regarding your claim as to why was prophet elevated through the seven skies , the answer is in quran sura bani israel , verse 1
"Glory to ((Allah)) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things). ( bani israel , verse 1 ,yusuf ali's trnas) .
<< in order that We might show him some of Our signs >> Hence ALLAH took prophet above the skyto show some of HIS sings to our master on that night . FOR ex : ALLAH made our beoloved prophet to lead the prayers of other prophets ( hence showing them that the last prophet id IMAMUL AMBIYA) ,, ON each heaven meeting with other prpohets , HEAVEN AND HELL AND the pinishment in them ( surpassing time law , as these punishments will begin after the day of judgement) ,The Point beyound which jibraiel alahissalam could not go, Prophet was welcomed and many other sigsn . HENCE prophet was raised to show HIS signs , not because ALLAH is confined to a particular place.
ALLAH showed HIS sign to MUSA alahis salam on the mountain . Do " salafi " say ALLAH is confined to that mountain ?

Allah says in quran that HE has revaled the quran in ARABIC ( salafi friends should keep this in mind) and follow the explaination given by ahle sunnah scholars from salaf as saliheen.
It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein
How do they explain this > Hope they follow the tafsir of the salaf sa salihen.( and do not say physical closeness of ALLAH to jugular vein)
And if they take that hadith of slave girl ( which has three different version) to suit their agenda ( which cannot be taken as it is a lone narrator report and is against so many other mass transmitted report ) then how do they explain this hadith

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "My Lord says, 'If My slave comes nearer to me for a span, I go nearer to him for a cubit; and if he comes nearer to Me for a cubit, I go nearer to him for the span of outstretched arms; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running.'(BOOK 93, hadith 627/ sahi bukhari/ Eng tran)

I have another problem with those who say that ALLAH is confined to sky .
What is "above" for the people living in northern hemisphere is not the same " above " direction for the people living in southern hemisphere. You can get this confirm , if you wish so . SO if salafis of northern hemisphere say that " ALLAH " is ' above " with respect to direction , then for salafis living in southern hemisphere , ALLAH will have to be in a different direction.
May ALLAH help all of us to have love for his beloved prophet and help us to die on imaan . Ameen

" man arfa nafasahu ,faqad arfa rabb"

[sunnimale]

Assalam alaikum
I have personally met salafi muftis and they do beleive in direction for ALLAH.

Quran 3: 103<And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves;( yusuf ali's tran)
Does any salafi says" Allah has a rope but we cannot see it? Do they say " we do not know what material it is made of? NO !! Because they follow the explaination give by prophet .

Quran <45:34<Today We forget you as you have forgotten this day of yours
Do salafi say ALLAH " will forget" ( may we be saved from speaking that ) , but we do not know how HE will forget? Do they say " HIS forgefulness is diferent from ours" !!
NO !! They again accept tawil give by salf as saliheen.

But when it comes to HANDS of ALLAH , SALFIS SAY" ALLAH HAS A HAND , BUT NOT LIKE OURS"
Imam Abu Hanifah said we beleive in hands of ALLAH and these are HIS attributes. I have never seen any salafi using that word " attributes " in explaining.
Further , QURAN 42 : 11<there is nothing whatever like unto Him. All creations fall in two categories , first, physical ( aalame khalq. sun , earth , etc) and non physical ( aalame amr , soul , angels etc) . ALLAH is the creator of everthing and LIKE HIM is none .
SO ALLAH is neither physical , nor non physical ( LIKE HIM IS NONE)
HE exists every where and DOES not require any space so exist. WE should not ask" HOW" and beleive on it , bearing in mind that HE does not need space to exist , because need for space shows " limitation " with which ALLAH is free.

Since ALLAH is neither physical , nor non physical , there is no question of HULUL ( SO salafi should not ask " does ALLAH live in room ? Does he mixes with dirt? ( May ALLAH save us , but i have met salafi who ask this question). NO one ever told tha ALLAH exists every where " physically " ( ALLAH is neither physical , nor non physical)

Another salafi question" Can Allah sit on a mosquito? ( may ALLAH save us ) Salafi ask this when they are told about a similar statement made by shiekh ibn taimiyah.

Imam Ghazali explains that to say " The king is NOT A cobler ,. The king is not a liar ,The king is not a stupid , BY saying all this we are although denying short comings to the king , but in a way , we are making fun of the king.

Similarly if some one ask questions like " can ALLAH lie? can ALLAH sit on mosquito?
THE best answer will be say " ALLAH is free from any limitations and shortcomings "
(salafis try to get answer in " yes and " no )
if we say " no " they will say " is ALLAH incapable of this ?
and if we say " YES " the that is ascribing shortcomings to ALLAH
May ALLAH save us from all the fitnah . ameen
May we all develop love for HIS beloved prophet and die in imaan , ameen

[Crono Devir]

just a noteL

when you said 'imam hanbali said this:" and you put the quote in english.

1. that isn't what he said [he didn't speak english]

and

2. because witch words you use, becasue for instances if imam hanbal said 'yadd' and you trnalsated it to 'hand' you woudl drasticly be changeing the menaing of what was said [no such thing as 1:1 translations]

[some advice i also need to take]