Confusion about Imam Mahdi?

[a.s.]

Im trying to gain some insight about the Sunni view of the 12 Imams. So far I know that the Shia's believe that the 12 Imams are divinely appointed, and that the twelfth and final Imam, al-Mahdi, is hiding in a cave somewhere and they are waiting for him to com out. They believe that Imam Mahdi is supernatural and will have special powers, and have a higher status than the prophets (peace be upon them all). They also believe that all 12 Imams are descendants of the Prophet (SAW) through his daughter (ra). They also believe he will punish Umar(ra) and Abu bakr(ra) and other sahabah of the Prophet (pbuh) because they believe that the sahabah were evil.
This view is wrong, and I can see why.

The Sunni's hold Imam Mahdi to be a regular human being, not infallible at all, who is not born yet. But when he is born, he, alongside with the resurrected Jesus (pbuh), will cleanse the world of all evil, defeat the dajjal, and make Islam the only religion in the world. So far im correct, right?

The confusion is this. The Sunni's also believe that Mahdi will be the caliph of the entire world, a successor to the 11th imam. But for him to be a successor, he has to show up rights after the 11th, with no gaps, because thats what successor means. But its been more than a 1,000 years since the 11th imam passed away, so how can Imam Mahdi be a successor?

Also, what exactly do the twelve imams do, according to Sunni view? They just lead salah? Im not understanding this well. What is their role in Islam?


Also, each of the 12 imams are for a different age. The Imam of our age will be Mahdi, correct?


I know its a lot of questions, but can someone please clear this all up for me.
Jazakallah.

[AbuMuslimKhorasani]

Salam Alaikum,

The shia mahdi is a myth and it doesn't exist. Also, Sunnis don't believe that Imam al-Mahdi (ra) will be the successor of 11th Imam. This is a shiite believe not of Sunni Islam. Yes, shiites believe that 12 Imams are infallible people chosen by Allah for the guidance of Muslims and they are also superior to Prophets' of Allah (swt). So for them Imamate is superior to Prophethood. This is clear misguidance and kufr.

Also, the 11 men (the 12th one doesn't exist) were normal humans not divinely appointed infallibles. The Shia have attributed false things to these 11 personalities and fabricated narrations in their name. The Shia consider them to be their Imams but in reality they are free of shiism.


Also, each of the 12 imams are for a different age. The Imam of our age will be Mahdi, correct?
The people of Sonnah don't believe in the concept of 12 Imams. This is made by the shiites.

From where did you get these weird information?

I hope other brothers can provide better reply.

[warea]

I think its confusing to be explain shia view as "divenly appointed". Does that means Sunni Imams lack divine recognition and plan? Ofcourse not. The fact that such a hadith even exist is proof that they are divinely recognised. Just like Allah SWT blessing the ummah with revivers in every 100years.

The difference then is question as to how these "Imams" take up leadership among the l people, how they are recognised, the status of Imams who are not these 12 Imams, whether these Imams have to necessarily be ahle bayt, the status of interpretation of Quran by these Imams and authority of interpretation of those who are not from the 12 Imams, how fundamental is the following of these Imams and knowledge of this doctrine and so forth.

[FromDK]

Salaam brothers and sisters.

Some very smart questions mashallah. I see that you are sunni therefor i will only give you sunni hadiths about this subject. And if you have questions you want me to answer, you are more than welcome. Here we go.

Sahih muslim, volume 3 page 1453 hadith 10.
The prophet (PBUH) said "The religion will continue until the hour (day of resurrection) having 12 caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh"

and you can find similar hadiths in
1. Sahih Muslim: volume 3 hadith hadith nr. 1821´
2. Sahih Bukhari: volume 5 page 165 Kitab Alahkam
3. Sunnan Altermethi: Bab Ma Ja’a Fi Alkhulfaa Men Abwab Alfitan
4. Sunnan Abi Dawood: volume 3 page 106 Kitab Almahdi
5. Musnad Altaylasi: hadith nr. 767 and1279
6. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal: volume 5page 86-90 and page 92-101 and page 106-108
7. Kanzul Umal: volume 13 page 26
8. Heliyat Abi Nu’aim: volume 4 page 333
9. Fath Albari af Ibn Hajar: volume 16 page 338
10. Mustadrak Alsahihain: volume 3 page 617

and

Sahih Bukhari 89.329
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Musnad Ahmad Volume 1, page 398
Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"

And there are MORE sunni hadiths to this. (ask me if you want any)

So sunni and shia muslims both agree that there will be 12 khalifs before this world ends, and that they are all from Quraish. The difference is that shiamuslims agree on who the 12 are (Starting with the Prophet(saws) and Mahdy(aj) as the last. The sunni brothers on the other hand havnt figured this out jet. Its a really hard question. Because the sahaba khalifs are less than 12. Some tried with men from the umayarulers but they are more than 12. So i can see the problems from a sunni point of view. I dont see how anyone can find a solution to this if they dont acknowledge the 12 imams.

[a.s.]

Salam Alaikum,

The shia mahdi is a myth and it doesn't exist. Also, Sunnis don't believe that Imam al-Mahdi (ra) will be the successor of 11th Imam. This is a shiite believe not of Sunni Islam. Yes, shiites believe that 12 Imams are infallible people chosen by Allah for the guidance of Muslims and they are also superior to Prophets' of Allah (swt). So for them Imamate is superior to Prophethood. This is clear misguidance and kufr.

Also, the 11 men (the 12th one doesn't exist) were normal humans not divinely appointed infallibles. The Shia have attributed false things to these 11 personalities and fabricated narrations in their name. The Shia consider them to be their Imams but in reality they are free of shiism.


The people of Sonnah don't believe in the concept of 12 Imams. This is made by the shiites.

From where did you get these weird information?

I hope other brothers can provide better reply.

This is the Sunni view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi#Sunni_view

The Sunni view is that Imam Mahdi, who is a very pious man from ahl al-Bayt,will return alongside with Jesus(peace be upon him).

What Im asking is, what is the Sunni view of the other 11 Imams?

[warea]

Salaam brothers and sisters.

Some very smart questions mashallah. I see that you are sunni therefor i will only give you sunni hadiths about this subject. And if you have questions you want me to answer, you are more than welcome. Here we go.

Sahih muslim, volume 3 page 1453 hadith 10.
The prophet (PBUH) said "The religion will continue until the hour (day of resurrection) having 12 caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh"

and you can find similar hadiths in
1. Sahih Muslim: volume 3 hadith hadith nr. 1821´
2. Sahih Bukhari: volume 5 page 165 Kitab Alahkam
3. Sunnan Altermethi: Bab Ma Ja’a Fi Alkhulfaa Men Abwab Alfitan
4. Sunnan Abi Dawood: volume 3 page 106 Kitab Almahdi
5. Musnad Altaylasi: hadith nr. 767 and1279
6. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal: volume 5page 86-90 and page 92-101 and page 106-108
7. Kanzul Umal: volume 13 page 26
8. Heliyat Abi Nu’aim: volume 4 page 333
9. Fath Albari af Ibn Hajar: volume 16 page 338
10. Mustadrak Alsahihain: volume 3 page 617

and

Sahih Bukhari 89.329
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Musnad Ahmad Volume 1, page 398
Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"

And there are MORE sunni hadiths to this. (ask me if you want any)

So sunni and shia muslims both agree that there will be 12 khalifs before this world ends, and that they are all from Quraish. The difference is that shiamuslims agree on who the 12 are (Starting with the Prophet(saws) and Mahdy(aj) as the last. The sunni brothers on the other hand havnt figured this out jet. Its a really hard question. Because the sahaba khalifs are less than 12. Some tried with men from the umayarulers but they are more than 12. So i can see the problems from a sunni point of view. I dont see how anyone can find a solution to this if they dont acknowledge the 12 imams.

The hadith refers to them as rulers. Therefore it shouldnt be confused with spiritual heads without political power. In other words, the 12 Imams being referred in this hadith are strictly referring to rulers who would lead the Muslim community with political power.

Secondly, just because shia agree on who the 12 are, its not proof that they are right about what they agree on. Moreover, the shia themselves have divided into further sects by differing upon who the true Imam is. So the idea that shia agree is also not true. Rather each sect of the shia agree upon their own divergent list of who the true Imam is.

[FromDK]

Salam.
Brother, when i say shia, i mean the jafariya (Who belive in 12 imams). I
know it says rulers(Khalif), in shiaislam we acknowledge and accept only the 12 imams as being rulers(khulafa). You cant be a khalif without being an imam.We have 12imams, which means 12 khulafa. Thats why these true sunni ahadith (that we shia have in shia books also) make perfectly sence to us. It should not be a hard question for any muslim to answer how many khulafa there have been? And if these khulafa where the right khulafa, when why are they not 12?

Please answer the brother. Who are the sunnis 12khulafa?

Jazakum Allah Khair brothers and Sisters

[warea]

Salam.
Brother, when i say shia, i mean the jafariya (Who belive in 12 imams). I
know it says rulers(Khalif), in shiaislam we acknowledge and accept only the 12 imams as being rulers(khulafa). You cant be a khalif without being an imam.We have 12imams, which means 12 khulafa. Thats why these true sunni ahadith (that we shia have in shia books also) make perfectly sence to us. It should not be a hard question for any muslim to answer how many khulafa there have been? And if these khulafa where the right khulafa, when why are they not 12?

Please answer the brother. Who are the sunnis 12khulafa?

Jazakum Allah Khair brothers and Sisters


But were all the 12 Imams of shia a caliph? Imam Shafi is an Imam but not a caliph. So you get the point being made.

The hadith of 12 Imams makes as much sense to sunni's as in case of the arrival of revivers in every century. It is not necessary to have absolute knowledge on the specifics as to who they are. The hadith is general and sunni's leave that generality as such. I could dwelve on specifics and make my own list of who the 12Imams are, yet it is not a proof of anything as is the case of shia jafariyya list. The only difference then is that shia dwelved onto it and created by innovation a whole foundation of religion based on it.

What is to be noticed instead is that the shia view that the 12 Imams have to be ahle bayt, the flawed philosophical position (born out off subjective-objective dilemma) that they only have sole divine authority in interpretation of Quran, that they learn the interpretation of Quran directly from Allah SWT, etc are not mentioned in the hadith regarding those 12 Imams. It only refers to them as being caliphs. Similarily the claim that a ruler, besides the 12, are illegitimate, does not have a basis.

Wsalam

[Quandary]

Except those people weren't Khulafah, they did not rule over the Muslims in reality, so you cannot say they were rulers...

In order to be a ruler you must rule. So your 'acceptance and acknowledgement' of them as rulers is functionally meaningless because they were not, in reality, rulers!

[AbuMuslimKhorasani]

This is the Sunni view:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi#Sunni_view

The Sunni view is that Imam Mahdi, who is a very pious man from ahl al-Bayt,will return alongside with Jesus(peace be upon him).


Salam Alaikum,

Brother no one is denying the Mahdi (ra) but where does it say that he will be the successor of Hasan Askari?


What Im asking is, what is the Sunni view of the other 11 Imams?
The Sunni view is they were normal human beings and scholars of Islam/AhlulSunnah just like other scholars and they had nothing to do with shiites. They are innocent of the shiism just like Isa ibn Maryam (as) is innocent of christian beliefs.

Check these beautiful lectures about some of those 11 Imams:

Ali ibn al-Husayn (رحمه الله)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=nMeEy-LqBts

Muhammad al-Baaqir (رحمه الله)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eh0ETUS31PE

Ali ibn Musa ar-Ridaa (رحمه الله)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=lmlcNAjIRn8

[AbuMuslimKhorasani]

Salaam brothers and sisters.

Some very smart questions mashallah. I see that you are sunni therefor i will only give you sunni hadiths about this subject. And if you have questions you want me to answer, you are more than welcome. Here we go.

Sahih muslim, volume 3 page 1453 hadith 10.
The prophet (PBUH) said "The religion will continue until the hour (day of resurrection) having 12 caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraysh"

and you can find similar hadiths in
1. Sahih Muslim: volume 3 hadith hadith nr. 1821´
2. Sahih Bukhari: volume 5 page 165 Kitab Alahkam
3. Sunnan Altermethi: Bab Ma Ja’a Fi Alkhulfaa Men Abwab Alfitan
4. Sunnan Abi Dawood: volume 3 page 106 Kitab Almahdi
5. Musnad Altaylasi: hadith nr. 767 and1279
6. Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal: volume 5page 86-90 and page 92-101 and page 106-108
7. Kanzul Umal: volume 13 page 26
8. Heliyat Abi Nu’aim: volume 4 page 333
9. Fath Albari af Ibn Hajar: volume 16 page 338
10. Mustadrak Alsahihain: volume 3 page 617

and

Sahih Bukhari 89.329
Narrated Jabir bin Samura: I heard Muhammad saying, "There will be twelve Muslim rulers." He then said a sentence which I did not hear. My father said, "All of them (those rulers) will be from Quraish."

Musnad Ahmad Volume 1, page 398
Masrooq rates that someone asked Abdullah Ibn Masood, "O Abaa Abd al-Rahmaan, did you ask the Messenger of Allah how many caliphs will rule this nation?". Abdullah Ibn Masood replied, "Yes, we did ask the Messenger of Allah and he replied, "Twelve, like the number of chiefs (nuqabaa) of Bani Israel"

And there are MORE sunni hadiths to this. (ask me if you want any)

So sunni and shia muslims both agree that there will be 12 khalifs before this world ends, and that they are all from Quraish. The difference is that shiamuslims agree on who the 12 are (Starting with the Prophet(saws) and Mahdy(aj) as the last. The sunni brothers on the other hand havnt figured this out jet. Its a really hard question. Because the sahaba khalifs are less than 12. Some tried with men from the umayarulers but they are more than 12. So i can see the problems from a sunni point of view. I dont see how anyone can find a solution to this if they dont acknowledge the 12 imams.

The Hadith of 12 Caliphs doesn't fit the shiites. Because there is no physical evidence of your 12th hidden Mahdi. Also, none of those Imams who you consider to be your infallibles ruled the Muslim Ummah or were Caliphs.

I recommend you to check this:
Hadith of the Twelve Caliphs (http://www.schiiten.com/backup/AhlelBayt.com/www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/rebuttals/12-caliphs.html)

[a.s.]

So basically the Sunni view is that there will be 12 Imams, just as the hadith says, the final one will be Imam Mahdi (just like the hadith says), but we do not know who the first 11 were.
Also, the Sunni view of Imam Mahdi is drastically different from the Shia view.

I think I got it down pat. Confusion cleared as of now.

[Anti-Devil]

Salam Alaykom Brother a.s

I don't know what you wrote at the first paragraph,is sth that you really believe it or not,but i have to mention some points about:


Shia's believe that the 12 Imams are divinely appointed, and that the twelfth and final Imam, al-Mahdi, is hiding in a cave somewhere and they are waiting for him to com out.

so i have to say that there are some couple of lies that the enemies of Aba Saleh Almahdi,Imam Alens va aljan(Imam to human and evils),arvahona laho ahfedeh,made it by themselves to make us and who wants to make his beliefs about him more stronger,confused.
It's a big funny lie that" Imam Mahdi is living in a cave because of his fear of the enemies",so we ask some questions here:if his and our enemies(according to what they say) know that in which cave he is hiding,so what are they waiting for?!why they don't go there and kill him as soon as possible?!
all of 11 Imams plus Imam Mahdi(عج) are the Imams for every human lives on the earth,not only Muslims,not only we Shias,so in these ages that we can't see him,he can see us,he comes between us,he helps us,he even come to guide us,we may see him but we can't know him.it is the reason that when he comes out(at the time of his arrival)some of people(maybe most of them)will say:"he was Imam Mahdi that i saw him somewhere "or"God,I've seen this man before"


and have a higher status than the prophets (peace be upon them all).

It's a big lie too,we don't believe in these kind of beliefs.


They also believe he will punish...and other sahabah of the Prophet (pbuh) because they believe that the sahabah were evil.
I have to clear s.th too.
some of our brothers and sisters of Ahl alsunnah think that we shias are against all of Prophet Mohammad's(ص) Sahabah.our answer is that:
Prophet (ص),had 100000 people who were his Sahabah,of this number the name of about 15000 people of them is recorded and the rest of them are unknown,how could a wise man do such an act and curse someone who even don't know?!
at the second step:between these 15000 people,there are many people who didn't have a role in difficulties which happened for ahl Albayt(ع).some of them were pioneers of Shiite and know Ali(ع) as their Caliph and their Imam and where stood by this belief.how curse who has no sin?!
just those who violated Ahl Albayt's rights and didn't respect their status,we don't agree.

لَعَلَّهُمْ يتَفَكَّرُونَ....

[AbuMuslimKhorasani]

Salam Alaykom Brother a.s

I don't know what you wrote at the first paragraph,is sth that you really believe it or not,but i have to mention some points about:

so i have to say that there are some couple of lies that the enemies of Aba Saleh Almahdi,Imam Alens va aljan(Imam to human and evils),arvahona laho ahfedeh,made it by themselves to make us and who wants to make his beliefs about him more stronger,confused.
It's a big funny lie that" Imam Mahdi is living in a cave because of his fear of the enemies",so we ask some questions here:if his and our enemies(according to what they say) know that in which cave he is hiding,so what are they waiting for?!why they don't go there and kill him as soon as possible?!



It is mentioned in your own books that your 12th Imam (doesn't exist) is hiding because he fears the people.

60- وأن إمام هذا الزمان هو المهدي ابن الحسن الهادي، وأنه الحجة على العالمين، وخاتم الأئمة الطاهرين، لا إمامة لأحد بعد إمامته، ولا دولة بعد دولته، وأنه غائب عن رعيته، غيبة اضطرار وخوف من أهل الضلال، وللمعلوم عند الله تعالى في ذلك الصلاح.

60 – And that the Imam of this time is the Mahdi, the son of al-Hasan al-Hadi, and that he is the Hujja upon the worlds, the seal of the pure Imams. There is no Imamate to anyone after his Imamate, and no government after his government. And he is occulted (gha’ib) from his subjects, a necessary occultation and a fear from the people of misguidance, and for the good in that which is known to Allah ta`ala.



all of 11 Imams plus Imam Mahdi(عج) are the Imams for every human lives on the earth,not only Muslims,not only we Shias,so in these ages that we can't see him,he can see us,he comes between us,he helps us,he even come to guide us,we may see him but we can't know him.it is the reason that when he comes out(at the time of his arrival)some of people(maybe most of them)will say:"he was Imam Mahdi that i saw him somewhere "or"God,I've seen this man before"

It's a big lie too,we don't believe in these kind of beliefs.


You people have turned your 12th Imam into a God (astaghferullah).

Also, provide evidence from the Quran about what you said above. Show us one single verse about your 12 infallibles and 12th Imam if you are truthful.

[Anti-Devil]

سلام علیک
you put a text,refer it to us,but you didn't put it's source,interesting!
you see God like what i told?we don't,we Allah's power and situation more high and highest than it.it seems that you're God,brother AbuMuslimKhorasani,is like it and you're in a big mistake with God's ability,ha?

you want me to prove my beliefs with a poet?!funny...!!!

[AbuMuslimKhorasani]

سلام علیک
you put a text,refer it to us,but you didn't put it's source,interesting!
you see God like what i told?we don't,we Allah's power and situation more high and highest than it.it seems that you're God,brother AbuMuslimKhorasani,is like it and you're in a big mistake with God's ability,ha?

you want me to prove my beliefs with a poet?!funny...!!!

Walaikum Salam,

I copied that narration from a Shiite website: http://www.tashayyu.org/kalam/mukhtasar-aqaid-ash-shia-al-imamiyya

Again! provide evidence about 12 infallibles & the 12th Imam from the Quran if you are truthful. The foundation of Shiism is missing in the book of Allah (swt).

Prove that without your 12th Imam the world will not exist???

I ask Allah (swt) to open your heart and guide you to the correct Islam.