Thank you all!

[peach]

I have been intensely following sunniform.com for the last few months, along with several other Islamic websites, blogs and forums like alfita.com, askimam.org, salafitalk.net, etc. and I would like to thank you all for helping me make one of the biggest decisions of my life. I was very enlightened by your true and accurate representation of Islamic beliefs, tenets and practices. I understood the real meaning behind several oft-questioned ayahs of the Quran and Hadith. Combined with other sources of Islamic discourse I was following, I believe I now have a complete and accurate picture of Islam.

Now comes the part where you would probably think I'm an internet troll. Thanks to all your views and the opinions of several Islamic scholars, I've come to the conclusion that being a modern, educated woman of the 21st century, Islam is definitely not the religion for me. I was born in a Muslim family and some of my family members have been devout followers of the faith, and even though we were taught prayer and the Quran, there wasn't any particular emphasis on religiosity. My curiosity about Islam rose when I saw my girlfriends being regular in their prayers and dealing with everything in their life, from make-up to marriage, after figuring out an Islamic perspective over it. This peer pressure drove me to strive for religiosity myself, and I became a staunch defender of anything Islamic. However, since I moved to Saudi Arabia I saw the sheer hypocrisy of Wahhabi Islam especially when it came to treating women and migrant workers, and how it legitimizes a brutal totalitarian regime through religious endorsement. This led me to a critical study of Islam itself. "Don't look at Muslims, look at Islam" I was frequently told by friends. Yet the more I studied, the more I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century.

The internet has permitted this amazing new culture of anonymity, where I can fearlessly state my beliefs. I'm lucky to have a husband who understands and supports my actions and convictions, although he considers himself a Muslim (not a practicing one though). We've already left Saudi for the safe havens of the UK, where of course, the state doesn't give a damn about who I worship even if it is domesticated cattle or David Beckham.

For the longest time, my dilemma was if I should actually label myself as 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or the like. But I concluded that nobody really owns the copyright to the label 'Muslim'. I can divorce myself from the actual tenets of the faith, but that does not negate the fact that I still do belong to Islam by virtue of my husband, my family, friends, my upbringing and the like. And I also do not have anything particularly against the basics of Islam - the five pillars, the spirituality, the Quran being a divine revelation and Muhammad being the last prophet, the narrative about how life is a test, etc. I do not deny them (I don't believe in them either). The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.

I was suggested by several internet friends to consider the fancier, hip sects that have come up, especially in the West or the Sufis of the East. Some of them support feminist, even homosexual movements. Others just stress on spirituality and worship. But I knew I'd be following a 'deviant' version of Islam (not that by following a more mainstream sect, nobody would call me a deviant. Muslims are busy labeling each other as munafiq or kafir.). I knew that being a part of these sects would be hypocritical, as I know what they follow isn't really what has ever been recorded as Islamic practice.

So the choice really for me was the exit door. Thank you once again for having this amazing resource where we can all discuss and paint a true picture of Islam, and decide for ourselves if Islam is right for us.

[NNoor]

:salam:

While I'm glad you found this resource useful (and saddened by your decision), I have to say I think your reasoning process is flawed. Whether a religion suits our own personal outlook or not is not a measure of its truth or validity. Instead, the truth of a religion is based on the proofs put forward to demonstrate that the scripture is in fact a Revelation from God (assuming one believes in God to begin with). So if a person believes that the Quran is revelation from God, and that Muhammad :saw: is His final messenger who delivered that revelation to the world, then he is Muslim. Of course, if you believe that God is telling you to behave in a certain way, the logical thing to do is obey, whether you feel it's "controlling" or "right" or not.

Likewise, if someone doesn't believe that the Quran is divine revelation, and that Muhammad :saw: is the final messenger, he is not a Muslim.


And I also do not have anything particularly against the basics of Islam - the five pillars, the spirituality, the Quran being a divine revelation and Muhammad being the last prophet, the narrative about how life is a test, etc. I do not deny them (although I don't believe in them either).

Your statement in bold is nonsensical. Either you believe the Quran is revelation from God, and that Muhammad is His last messenger, in which case you are Muslim. Or you don't, in which case you are not Muslim.

[peach]

Well what I meant is, I do not believe in those aspects of Islam, yet those aren't the aspects I have an issue with. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

[amr123]

Welcome. :-)

[timeup]

......

So the choice really for me was the exit door. ......

:inna:
:cry::cry::cry:

thats not a good decision please come back.

[mercyofAllah]

:bism:
innalillaahi wainna ilaihi raajioon
How blessed are the people who are given taufeeq to please their Rabb in everything what they do and and are pleased by obeying Allah SWT and that in fact is the job of the slave to obey the Lord, the sustainer, the most Kind and Mercifu and that is why we are created.
Let Allah SWT guide us all and keep us steadfast on His deen for verily we are all dependent on Him SWT while He is self-subsisiting sustainer of all. Amin

[Shuayb Abdul-Khaaliq]

Sister peace,

So what is your plan for the grave? (I'm confused).

Thanks.

[UserInvalid]

This is a common thing nowdays, lets get the facts right. [btw guys, I am not a user who posts on sunni forum, but I do read some post if it is beneficial, but this thread brought me here to give a reply of what is going wrong here]

First of all, internet is not a source for knowledge, this is a worst thinking a person can get, and thats where we muslims collide with problems, and are end up with leaving the truth, the light of guidance. If people want to seek knowledge, then go and sit under the feet of 'ulema and study, a person without a guidance will have a confused mind always, and I am writing this with my experience. To learn something you need a teacher, for example maths, algebra, a person who never saw algebra such as this equation x - 9 = 7, find the x. Now the person will stare and study by himself, then somehow he will find a solution, but the problem is that, can this type of way be applied in different questions for example quadratic equations? (sorry for writing maths, but this is a good example). A person needs to understand which knowledge applies where, but how? go to the teacher and learn. Same goes with learning knowledge of islam, go to 'ulema.

Moving on, just like the thread starter. You did not study under any 'ulema, as far by reading your message you are trying to put up, yes I know, how? because I have met with same people who faced same problem, and who ended the same place as you.

I am not going to go on and critisize your post, but I will pick some parts which seems wrong.



The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.


"Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system"

"Islam is easy to follow, but it is NOT a name of a desire" (keep these words runing in your head until you understand the "in-depth" meaning of this)

Islam is something like a package, it is not a toy to play around with. If you want to follow islam then follow islam, dont look here and there, like shaykh makki (masjid al haram) said, "abu jahal was better then you guys, if he wanted to be a kaffir then he stood kaffir, not like us today who look here and there, follow islam half, and half not" In this matter, I can say that you failed. A matter of fact its a truth.

Islam does not rule us, Islam does not need us, we need islam. People nowdays says "Islam needs help" what is islam need off? it is complete, its only a thing which we need to get in and adopt the truth.

====================

Now lets move further to your writing, you said islam teaches "degradation of women." Interesting...you are saying that you read and understood islam, but why is this coming in your mind? if you did then the answer should be infront of you? or is it you need someone to answer this?

here we go... "Islam gave women its due rights"

If you look back at history,
-In greek, male married male, women were hated, beaten, were toys, homosexuality was common.
-In times of roman, if a person made a mistake, the other person had a right to beat, rape or kill that person's wife.
-In Egyptian times, women were sign of devils
-In Pre-Islamic times, baby girls were buried alive.

Now when islam came, where did these practices go? magically vanished? or islam stood like a rock and gave an example to the creation of how a person should live?

once again, "Islam gave women its due rights"

I think its enough, go back and study the history then think again.

Now your next thing "Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice"

Wow, that is impressive. Can you give me some examples?

Can you simple give me a list of better justice then what islam teaches of?


"Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals."

Islam gave respect and honor to humans, who are "ashraful makhlooq" the best of creation. Now if you want to talk logically, or lets say common way. Even animal don't do these acts of homosexuality, and you are saying that human should do this? disgusting, and I would say this is stupid thing.

Now, lets thing further in a common way. Lets talk about how harmful effects are heavier then its benefits :

"Among the evil consequences of this sin are the many deadly and contagious diseases that result from it. Some of these illnesses are such that medical science -- with all its might, power and advanced technology - has failed to combat or even fully comprehend, let alone cure it. Certainly no one is able to rise above the Will of Allah Ta'ala and escape his wrath!

Some of these fatal diseases are:

* AIDS: There is no cure for it. It is contracted and spread through unlawful sexual intercourse and perverted sexual acts like homosexuality.

* GONORRHEA: which causes inflammation of the testicles, blockage of the urethra, inflammation of the joints and sterility.

* SYPHILIS: This is a type of venereal disease commonly known among the Arabs as 'the English Disease' since its origin lies in European societies where free intermingling of the sexes and immorality is rife. It results in insanity, paralysis, blindness, and other nerve disorders. Also leads to blood vessel damage and death.

* GENITAL ULCERS: which causes inflammation of the lymphatic glands. It also gives rise to chronic festering of tumours, inflammation of the urethra, severe pain in the joints and swelling of the limbs.

* HEPATITIS B: Its symptoms include fever, fatigue, nausea and jaundice. It results in chronic hepatitis or liver cancer.

These are only a few of the many deadly diseases caused by perverted sexual behaviour. Could anyone ever desire contracting any of them?

May Allah Ta'ala protect all of us from all types of evil!" [source : ask Imam]


Now, if a father tells his son not to go in certain place because there are killers who will kill you, and the son is going, how will father treat? will he pat the son and say "well done..no problem..its okay...keep going.. e.t.c" or say something that will make the son not to do this wrong act?

you need to think. Also why would father be harsh? because the reason is simply he loves his son.

You wrote : "Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system"

the answer is simply here, take your time to read this : http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=9ce8d9202065fcebba036f863ca05012


You wrote : "Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst."

I dont need to write much on this, because simply reading this shows the ignorance and the lack of knowledge, rather the person is calling himself/herself to study islam properly, again go to 'ulema and study under their feet. I will leave out small message on this.
History witness itself the tolerance of other religion in islam, when Umar ibn khattab (ra) got the keys for jersulam, he gave right for other people to practice their own religion. You can study that in detail by yourself, you can also look upon this and help yourself : http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/207/

You wrote : "Its belief in magic and witchcraft"

I have been a victim of this, I swear by Allah (swt) that magic and witchcraft is real..real..real. Al hamdullillah by some pious people I was cured through the command of Allah (swt). This is a worse thing a person can think, people like you who sit in "safe heaven" have not seen the truth, just heard and said thats it.

I think I do not read to write too much, because of lack of knowledge, sitting on computer, going on wrong sites and reading wrong things, gaining wrong information e.t.c has all made the person who started this thread walk on the wrong path. You, (the thread starter) have not studied islam properly, if you had, I can swear by Allah (swt) you would have solved your answers by yourself, you have not even went to 'ulema's and studied under them, rather then opening the book yourself and confusing yourself. You need someone to guide you.


If anyone got offended, I apologize. Also due to lack of time I could not re-read what I wrote, and also I missed some of my parts in writing a full answer to this.

May Allah (swt) give hidaya to this ummah. "Ab runay kay siwa kiya kar saktay hay?" [Moulana khair muhammad makki (db) ]

You are welcome, go wonder around in blindness, when you find out that you made the wrong decision in your life, you went wrong way, then know that, the door of islam is open, the door of repentance is open. Until death overcomes, and the day of truth starts.

[pluto]

Well what can I say that hasn't been already said? Hmmm...enjoy the freedom while it lasts!!! But just don't think this is your 'eureka' moment.

:inna:

[Shahed-560]

Well what I meant is, I do not believe in those aspects of Islam, yet those aren't the aspects I have an issue with. I'm sorry that wasn't clear.

السلام عليكم

Sister Anybody, can you hurry up?? Need no more to say.

[pluto]

السلام عليكم

Sister Anybody, can you hurry up?? Need no more to say.

One more fan of sis Anybody...ha ha!

:ws:

[xs11ax]

I have been intensely following sunniform.com for the last few months, along with several other Islamic websites, blogs and forums like alfita.com, askimam.org, salafitalk.net, etc. and I would like to thank you all for helping me make one of the biggest decisions of my life. I was very enlightened by your true and accurate representation of Islamic beliefs, tenets and practices. I understood the real meaning behind several oft-questioned ayahs of the Quran and Hadith. Combined with other sources of Islamic discourse I was following, I believe I now have a complete and accurate picture of Islam.

Now comes the part where you would probably think I'm an internet troll. Thanks to all your views and the opinions of several Islamic scholars, I've come to the conclusion that being a modern, educated woman of the 21st century, Islam is definitely not the religion for me. I was born in a Muslim family and some of my family members have been devout followers of the faith, and even though we were taught prayer and the Quran, there wasn't any particular emphasis on religiosity. My curiosity about Islam rose when I saw my girlfriends being regular in their prayers and dealing with everything in their life, from make-up to marriage, after figuring out an Islamic perspective over it. This peer pressure drove me to strive for religiosity myself, and I became a staunch defender of anything Islamic. However, since I moved to Saudi Arabia I saw the sheer hypocrisy of Wahhabi Islam especially when it came to treating women and migrant workers, and how it legitimizes a brutal totalitarian regime through religious endorsement. This led me to a critical study of Islam itself. "Don't look at Muslims, look at Islam" I was frequently told by friends. Yet the more I studied, the more I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century.

The internet has permitted this amazing new culture of anonymity, where I can fearlessly state my beliefs. I'm lucky to have a husband who understands and supports my actions and convictions, although he considers himself a Muslim (not a practicing one though). We've already left Saudi for the safe havens of the UK, where of course, the state doesn't give a damn about who I worship even if it is domesticated cattle or David Beckham.

For the longest time, my dilemma was if I should actually label myself as 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or the like. But I concluded that nobody really owns the copyright to the label 'Muslim'. I can divorce myself from the actual tenets of the faith, but that does not negate the fact that I still do belong to Islam by virtue of my husband, my family, friends, my upbringing and the like. And I also do not have anything particularly against the basics of Islam - the five pillars, the spirituality, the Quran being a divine revelation and Muhammad being the last prophet, the narrative about how life is a test, etc. I do not deny them (I don't believe in them either). The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.

I was suggested by several internet friends to consider the fancier, hip sects that have come up, especially in the West or the Sufis of the East. Some of them support feminist, even homosexual movements. Others just stress on spirituality and worship. But I knew I'd be following a 'deviant' version of Islam (not that by following a more mainstream sect, nobody would call me a deviant. Muslims are busy labeling each other as munafiq or kafir.). I knew that being a part of these sects would be hypocritical, as I know what they follow isn't really what has ever been recorded as Islamic practice.

So the choice really for me was the exit door. Thank you once again for having this amazing resource where we can all discuss and paint a true picture of Islam, and decide for ourselves if Islam is right for us.


ok bye :rolleyes:

dont forget to shut the door on your way out.

[Ibn Al-Majnoon]

Allah guides whom He wills.

Anyway, moving on...

[peach]

@UserInvalid: I was raised in a Muslim household in a Muslim-majority country. I was obviously aware of the reasoning behind almost everything prescribed and forbidden in Islam. You somehow assume I have inadequate Islamic learning which caused me to leave Islam; if this satisfies your Islamic ego so be it (I mean, either that or I have to be possessed by the devil to do something like this, right?). So I think this "you-did-not-have-enough-knowledge" attitude is childish and presumptuous. And pray tell me, if I were to fall at the feet of an 'alim (which, one, is un-Islamic and two, would be insulting to my dignity as a woman) would he tell me that homosexuality is a natural thing, hence acceptable in Islam? Would he tell me that traditional Islam is unfair to women or would he tell me magic is a stupid concept? All the things I mentioned in the post are my uncompromising positions and I know there is no way traditional Islam can agree with these. The 'alim would only persuade me to believe what's already said in the books of Islam, he'd indoctrinate me, intimidate me with hell (actual hell, not figurative), use twisted Zakir-Naikish reasoning, perhaps narrate a couple of stories from Sunnah to drive home his point.

There is New Islam out there. People like Asra Nomani and Irshad Manji and, to a lesser degree, Tariq Ramadan (and many, many others) represent it. I was once a believer in it. Reforming Islam. Ijtihad, modern thought and all of that, I swallowed it hook, line and sinker. But I also discovered I have no real spirituality in me. I did not believe in Islam per se. It was more of a blind insurance policy, a fake shoulder to cry over and hope for support. Perhaps I got selfish, for I took the easier path and got what I wanted for everyone just for myself, instead of staying on and fighting for change in the community.

You must realize (not just you, almost everyone on this forum) that me leaving Islam is perhaps a victory for the Islam you represent. Like you said, I'm saying (rightly or wrongly) "Islam is... a package". Which is why I began my post with profuse gratitude, not just to this forum but everyone who made me understand this about (traditional) Islam. I agree with you that Islam is a complete way of life, and I reject that way of life. Every aspect of it. Because, like you, I do not believe it is possible to change Islam (or at least, I have given up hope). Of course, we can say female imams are fine or that the extent of hijab is culturally defined or with modern standards of hygiene, pork is okay. You can do that and much more, but then you cease to be following the Prophet's message.

I understand most people on this forum want to increase their faith in Islam and accept more and more things from the Islamic package into their lives and invite more people to Islam. I respect your faith and your conviction. I'm not interested in mocking Islam or making fun of Muslims. They, like devout followers of any faith, are the nicest of people. Nor am I interested in pitting Islam against any other ideology, whether political or religious, and say that's better. Every system of belief and governance we have on this planet is imperfect and most problems arise when their ardent supporters are indoctrinated about how flawless their arrangement is. All I'm saying is Islam isn't for me. It's unfortunate that I was born a Muslim (for both me and Muslims) and I just corrected that. No bad blood intended.

And lastly, perhaps I did hurt a lot of people who read this post, because as a Muslim when I used to observe others in non-Islamic acts, it really hurt. And I would like to sincerely apologize for that too, but I felt I have a story linked to sunniforum.com and I must share it.

In the best of Islamic traditions, peace be upon you.

[Ibn Al-Majnoon]

There is New Islam out there. People like Asra Nomani and Irshad Manji and, to a lesser degree, Tariq Ramadan (and many, many others) represent it. I was once a believer in it. Reforming Islam. Ijtihad, modern thought and all of that, I swallowed it hook, line and sinker.



Why does Islam need 'reforming'? There's nothing wrong with it.

[Abu Shuja'ah]

As Salaamu 'ala Man Ittaba al Huda,

Peach, we have no problem with you leaving Islam. I just have three questions for you and hopefully you can reply:

(1) What do you mean that Islam is stuck in the 7th century?
(2) How does Islam mistreat women?
(3) What is there that is difficult to believe in?

If you wish to reciprocate any questions my way, feel free.

wa Allaahu Alam.

[qibla]

ASWW
Sister
It hurts really bad reading your post, coz as you know, by now, or should know, we are all responsible for all and all for one.
If you have posted this with the intention of dragging down others with you, it makes it even worse and by Allah InshaAllah everything you say will come true for you. Everything, I mean the Quran says about apostates, and in your case even more.
By Allah you have judged Allah, His revelations and everything by human standards and thats the tragedy.
Even humans inventing standards for themselves are disastrous, say for example, your love for judging homosexuals etc., so surely, that should not make you go round and round in circles, which you are.
I suspect your first sentence sums it all up.... YOU ARE A TROLL>>>!!!
you must be giving your wonderful husband such a tough time in the haven you are now living in(sic)

[FususAlHikam]

I have been intensely following sunniform.com for the last few months, along with several other Islamic websites, blogs and forums like alfita.com, askimam.org, salafitalk.net, etc. and I would like to thank you all for helping me make one of the biggest decisions of my life. I was very enlightened by your true and accurate representation of Islamic beliefs, tenets and practices. I understood the real meaning behind several oft-questioned ayahs of the Quran and Hadith. Combined with other sources of Islamic discourse I was following, I believe I now have a complete and accurate picture of Islam.

Now comes the part where you would probably think I'm an internet troll. Thanks to all your views and the opinions of several Islamic scholars, I've come to the conclusion that being a modern, educated woman of the 21st century, Islam is definitely not the religion for me. I was born in a Muslim family and some of my family members have been devout followers of the faith, and even though we were taught prayer and the Quran, there wasn't any particular emphasis on religiosity. My curiosity about Islam rose when I saw my girlfriends being regular in their prayers and dealing with everything in their life, from make-up to marriage, after figuring out an Islamic perspective over it. This peer pressure drove me to strive for religiosity myself, and I became a staunch defender of anything Islamic. However, since I moved to Saudi Arabia I saw the sheer hypocrisy of Wahhabi Islam especially when it came to treating women and migrant workers, and how it legitimizes a brutal totalitarian regime through religious endorsement. This led me to a critical study of Islam itself. "Don't look at Muslims, look at Islam" I was frequently told by friends. Yet the more I studied, the more I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century.

The internet has permitted this amazing new culture of anonymity, where I can fearlessly state my beliefs. I'm lucky to have a husband who understands and supports my actions and convictions, although he considers himself a Muslim (not a practicing one though). We've already left Saudi for the safe havens of the UK, where of course, the state doesn't give a damn about who I worship even if it is domesticated cattle or David Beckham.

For the longest time, my dilemma was if I should actually label myself as 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or the like. But I concluded that nobody really owns the copyright to the label 'Muslim'. I can divorce myself from the actual tenets of the faith, but that does not negate the fact that I still do belong to Islam by virtue of my husband, my family, friends, my upbringing and the like. And I also do not have anything particularly against the basics of Islam - the five pillars, the spirituality, the Quran being a divine revelation and Muhammad being the last prophet, the narrative about how life is a test, etc. I do not deny them (I don't believe in them either). The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.

I was suggested by several internet friends to consider the fancier, hip sects that have come up, especially in the West or the Sufis of the East. Some of them support feminist, even homosexual movements. Others just stress on spirituality and worship. But I knew I'd be following a 'deviant' version of Islam (not that by following a more mainstream sect, nobody would call me a deviant. Muslims are busy labeling each other as munafiq or kafir.). I knew that being a part of these sects would be hypocritical, as I know what they follow isn't really what has ever been recorded as Islamic practice.

So the choice really for me was the exit door. Thank you once again for having this amazing resource where we can all discuss and paint a true picture of Islam, and decide for ourselves if Islam is right for us.


What can we do except continue making dua for you?

[alharith]

All I'm saying is Islam isn't for me.

Sister, question; why do you think this? You say you don't think Islam can be changed, and you don't like how it currently is, so you do not submit anymore. Why is this? Does Islam not suit your morals and/or standards?

I ask these because, if you're placing your standards above the objective standards, you realize that this isn't a legit reason to disbelieve, right? If you have subjective reasons for leaving, can't you change those subjective reasons to stay? Because, if you leave because your subjective morals don't accept Islam, is it really worth the price of the hereafter?

Anything truly negative this post causes is my fault and unintentional.

[تفويض]

السلام عليكم

The muslims on here shouldn't be patronising. I know it hurts to see a sister leaves Islam, but it happens. We should be giving advice, not be patronising. Don't forget, Muslims apostated during the Ridda, and later became Muslims again and firm ones too. The reason being is they had Sahaabah with them who were the best of Muslims after The Prophet SAW.

We should be polite and accept her decision, and as Brother Fusus said beautifully, "What can we do except continue making dua for you?"

و عليكم السلام

[abdulwahhab]

The original poster comes off as someone very condescending. She claims to be very knowledgeable about Islam. When a brother replied that she lacks knowledge, she got on her high horse and implied as if she had mastery in all the facets of Islam and that the only explanation that should make sense to us is that she is supposedly possessed by the devil since she is obviously too learned about Islam. She also misquotes the brother by implying that she prostrate to the 'ulama and then calls the suggestion "un-Islamic" when he never suggested such a thing.

Also, the thread title "Thank you all!" - she's trying to say that WE are responsible for her reaching her irtidad. It is only Allah :taala: that guides and lets go astray. She obviously did lack real knowledge about Islam as we can tell from her response to brother "UserInvalid". She is obviously NOT after the truth but she appears to be a slave to subjective morality. Moralities created by mankind are flavours of the day. It isn't considered immoral in some parts of the West to walk around naked. It isn't considered immoral in some parts of the West to indulge in all sorts of drugs. She wants to look at Islam through Western moralities that are fragile and always changing. Well, guess what? You won't like Islam if you approach it with such subjectivity.

Islam is an eternal and complete religion. Its moralities won't change. If you want to satisfy your nafs - your ego - Islam is not something you're going to like. The original poster obviously suffers from this. Her level of Islamic "knowledge" is apparently limited to her browsing through various forums. Real knowledge cannot be gained through books and reading.

All in all, objective truths do not matter to her. If Allah :taala: even directly told her that he has forbidden homosexuality or forbidden pork, she would reject Him because His commands do not fit in with her ego and her subjective morality. I don't know why we are patronizing her when she wasn't sincere in her approach to Islam to begin with.

[xs11ax]

the OP is just an attention seeker and only came on here to get a reaction. if she wants to leave then that is her choice. islam will not suffer in the least due to her apostacy. she obviously thinks she knows better than Allah and His Rasool :saw: then so be it. she will find out one way or another when she leaves this world. if she is willing to listen to good advice from the members then advise her. if she isnt willing to listen but just wants to gloat and try to show how superior she is then just let her go. Allah does not need her. If Allah wants to guide her then she will come back to the deen. If Allah does not then it is her loss and no one can do anything about it.

this thread should be deleted as others can get influenced by this. sunniforum should not be a soapbox for apostates, munafiqs and kuffar.

[amr123]

:salam:

Either the poster is :
1. Telling the truth, she is not convinced of Islam.
or
2. She is just faking it, just another evangelical christians doing Taqiyya.

If its the 2nd case I have nothing to say. May Allah protect us. Ameen.

If she is actually telling the truth, then she is just another apostate. It can happen to anyone with lack of Imaan (faith). Its the defect of the person, not that of Islam. Islam is a perfected religion. All we can do is advice the person and make Dua for that person, we will get its reward. Only Allah Ta'ala guide a person and He won't change a persons condition unless he/she mends the heart.

@peach
I request you to re examine your stand. I don't think a 'debate' style discussion will be of any use, as it will fuel ones ego and won't help much. Rather you can do your own soul searching, if you want help please do post here.

If anyone rejects Islam, its thats persons loss alone. Islam doesn't lose anything. May Allah cause us to live and die as a Muslim. Ameen.

".....and Allah is the Free of need, while you are the needy.
And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you."
(Suratul Muhammad: 38)

[ahmad12]

:salam:

It is strange when people reject Islam because it does not follow their own personal moral code. For starters, their own code is subjective and they want God :taala: to give commands according to the will of the Creation instead of changing their own morality according to the Will of God :taala:

:jazak:

[Anybody]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Peace, Sister Peaches:

May Allah guide you, me, and all of us to the Straight Path.

When I was in college freshman, a program director hired me as tutor to highschool students from low socioeconomic and disadvantaged backgrounds who were struggling academically in school. During this time, in one of the one-on-one meetings with student to find out their academic challenges, I was confronted with an insolent and blatantly rude attitude from one of the students. The ebony girl was large and tall, and she was confident she could intimidate others, including me. I had no doubt that the girl adopted the same attitude with teachers, and they probably gave into her “don’t-mess-me” attitude probably by ignoring the behavior, secretly hating her, or chewing her out in front of her peers.

However, I decided not to play her game. Instead, I calmly called her out on her attitude, undoubtedly surprising her. I don’t know what she expected, but it probably wasn’t my telling her that I thought her “attitude” was bluster and a front and she had better realize that I saw beyond it to the person she was and could be.

In those few minutes, I think we forged an understanding that went beyond our tutor-student relationship and she dropped her guard. No, she didn’t magically transform into a model of propriety from that session onwards, but I can honestly say she never from that moment of our acquaintance behaved with me the way I saw her still often behave with others, most especially her teachers and peers.

In that same way, I refuse to play your game.

If we are to play a game, let’s change the game, shall we, my sister in humanity?

Life is precious and scary; people can be mean and critical. Bad things happen. That’s just life. However, I refuse to accept your excuses. You cannot camouflage your own inadequacies and lack of understanding in regards to Islam to tell me that you left Islam because of Islam and not because of your own limitations and insecurities.

Frankly, my dear, misguided Sister, Islam is perfection. Having been once an atheist, I can tell you this as a 21st century modern, highly educated independent woman. I am 100% sure that Islam is the truth and I now find /agnosticism an intellectually inferior and spiritually deficient position and view with grimness my own blindness and ignorance to the truth.

You and I…we have walked different paths in life…made different choices. However, let’s not pretend with one another that you have found the “answers” to life’s problematic questions. Instead, all you have really done is chosen a different path and run away from facing all the questions to which you do not possess answers.

You know, when I was in high school, I remember watching The Oprah Show on successful people. However, what stood out that day to me that day was one particular story of all the others because of the human aspect that rung true, even if sad and pathetic. The successful businesswomen featured in the show said that before her success, she was in a committed relationship with a man whom she believed she was going to marry. However, one day, that same man, after years of refusing to take the plunge into matrimony with her, married happily to another woman within one month or so of dumping her. She was shocked, not to mention angry. So, she found out where he lived with his wife and slashed his car tires. When she shared the story, mortified color flushed her skin. Since she was denied the means of lashing out at him, as she had obviously then desired, she thought up the next best thing in her mind. In that same way, you came on the Forum as a means of lashing out. Oh, you did in a very gentle and subtle way, but to me, it could not have been more pronounced than if you had in bold, big font text written, “Happily ex-Muslim, you idiots.”

Also, your words belie your saying that you have studied Islam with any care or precision, apart of course from some rules and injunctions at a superficial level that had your eyes roll in disbelief at what you considered outmoded ideas. Many points about Wahabbism, spirituality, and other relevant points pertinent to homosexuality underscore your lack of knowledge about what Islam is, let alone why you or I or anyone else in the world would want to submit to Islam.

If you can, imagine life as a vehicle in which you are in the driver’s seat with death as a destination.

If the driver’s seat is occupied by a competent and knowledgeable person, the person is able to navigate. Without knowledge and competence, a person is bound to get lost. Whether you believe me or not, you are presently lost because you have neither knowledge nor competence. Competence requires knowledge, and because you do not have knowledge, you lack the competence required to judge your knowledge. When I say knowledge, it will surprise you to know that I refer to not only Islam as a way of life but practicalities and realities of the status quo world.

To underscore this point, I refer you to the results of a study of two men from the Department of Psychology at Cornell University, which measured in quantifiable and viable terms how profoundly people miscalculate their skills or knowledge in relation to actual knowledge or abilities. The article is called, “Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing in One’s Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments (http://www.steamfantasy.it/blog/manuali/unskilled_unaware_of_it.pdf).”

You see, my dear, misguided Sister, the reason you feel competent to judge Islam is because you do not have the requisite knowledge of Islam to understand its spirit or any of its underlying depth of wisdom. Also, from your own sweeping statements and generalizations, I do not believe you have studied human nature or its myriad perversities manifested in the world. If you did, you would see from every which way that you would look at Islam, you would see the answer.

Also, with regards to aspects of the spiritual such as witchcraft or the like, I have to say that they are true. If I brought a glass of water with salt dissolved in the liquid, you would not be able to tell that the salt is present until you tasted it. Therefore, it is foolish to deny something that falls under the realm of the Unseen, just as the salt in the transparent liquid would be in the realm of unseen to you and therefore unknown to your naked eye until you drank from the glass. Frankly, my dear, misguided Sister, spirituality is far too advanced a topic for you right now, because a baby must first learn to crawl before it can walk and walk before it can run. And since you deny the first principle of Islam, “La la ilaha illa allah muhammad rasool allah,” I would say that you should first concentrate on that if you were interested in learning about Islam instead of theorizing and speculating on Islam as an edifice.

Tell me something. Does the answer to 2 + 2 change? Does it ever become 5 or 6? Why does it remain 4? In that same way, as you know, Muslims say that Islam is the Truth. Therefore, you are right. Islam cannot change. However, that is in the nature of the Truth. Truth does not change because it is All (Objective) Reality for All Time.

After I read your words, a memory niggled me. It was the memory of a car bumper sticker, of all things. One day, when I was in the car with my parents a long time ago, I saw a car bumper sticker that had read, “If you live like there is no God, you better be right.” The words had spooked me even when I did not believe in God. I wanted to share them with you because they might be food for thought.

Allah has said in the Quran, “But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you (47:38)!”

Sister Peaches, the above is the importance Allah gives to people who turn back from Islam. In some ways, many of us assign ourselves some outward value, but Allah tells humanity that far from the importance we assign ourselves as individuals, we should realize we are not irreplaceable. Therefore, if we desire good for ourselves, we will do as Allah says and not our own imperfect will because His Will is Perfect.

Presently, Sister, what you have done is exchanged gold for dross. Islam is gold, and the world is dross. You have made an inferior choice.

You may hope that you have made the right choice for yourself, but you will never have the certainty, will you? My advice would be study Islam again (and this time do it right). If you wish, you may begin with these two videos: Divine Speech Prologue 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaS5NsvZ4yM) and Divine Speech Prologue 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWUy_luMq0Q). Or you may not.

In the end, however, as you know, the choice is really yours. Allah never forces anyone to believe, because He wants us to exercise our free will.


Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things (Quran 2:256).

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other that is my own mistake.

[silentflute]

@peach - Quick question for you, do you believe in Judgement day ?

[peach]

@Anybody: Thanks for replying to my post. I intended to make my previous post the last one, but after seeing your reply I had to respond. And thank you for your kind words, and for taking my words at face value unlike many other members, although I don't blame them for that.

I'm not playing any games but now that you said it, one of the reasons that drove me to create this thread was the 'lashing out' you were talking about. But I was not lashing out at Muslims or Islam, it was because I have to live with the fact that I cannot really tell my family or most of my friends about this decision out of fear of being an outcast. I'm not looking for acceptance of my ideas, certainly not on this forum. As far as knowledge is concerned, it would be arrogant for any person to assume they know everything, especially about a religion as diverse and as voluminous in text as Islam. I don't think by not believing in Islam I've gained any peace of mind - it is forcing me to live a double life and in fear of what would happen if the truth were to slip out to my family. I have not stopped believing because of some personal issues or a tragic encounter. I actually have a comfortable life, a great husband and a decent career. And for long, Islam was only a secondary aspect in my life. I could have chosen to live like that forever.

When I first traveled to Western countries, I swallowed everything as cultural difference, thinking we all just do things differently. Only when I returned to my country, and lived in Saudi I realized what we've turned ourselves into. Now, I'm no apologist for Western culture either. Their treatment of women is equally degrading as ours, if not worse. The constant portrayal of women as sexual objects, the naked casino capitalism and a superficial sense of freedom doesn't fool me. But I think we Muslims have trapped ourselves in mundane, fruitless banter about religion while our economies, political systems and societies are rotting away.

I have known a few Muslims who stop believing in Islam, and after several years turn back. And I've read about a few famous ones too. You yourself say that you've been an atheist before, so you should perhaps understand better than some of the hyper-reactive users on this forum. I don't know if you were born Muslim, but I bet you can't even describe the joy, the peace of mind of believing in Islam after being an atheist. To finally know that you have arrived, on your own, to the truth. I know most people around me believe in Islam because they were told so at a young age. Their belief is a matter of ego, that what they've always been told has to be right. At least that's how I felt. Why is it that so many Muslims, even on this forum, worry more about rather peripheral issues like how women dress or why polygamy should be allowed or debunking various sects within Islam and declaring them kafir, than focusing on the most important things in Islam: belief in Allah and the Messenger, prayers, fasting, etc.?

So do you wish to deny me that quest for truth? I do not hold any grudge against Allah or the Messenger, as people here appear to have assumed. I'll be happy to believe in Islam but on my own accord. I want to be a Muslim not because I was born as one, or for fear that my society won't accept me otherwise. Right now, many things in Islam appear wrong to me and I believe continuing as a Muslim would be hypocritical. I may arrive at something else that would give me spiritual bliss, but there is something inside me that just hopes it is Islam, so that I can be at peace with the world around me.

You talk about me judging Islam. Your real issue is that I've a negative judgement of Islam. If I were to be ignorant and said flowery things about the religion, you wouldn't really care, would you? I do not claim to be a scholar in Islam, yet my knowledge isn't as limited as you'd like to paint. And even though I hate this patronizing attitude, I do not take offence because I understand your perspective. However, for meaningful dialogue I'd prefer you don't treat me with kid gloves ("I do not believe you have studied human nature or its myriad perversities manifested in the world". Seriously?). I've not exchanged Islam for any other (established) belief, but I'm open to that. Meanwhile, I'm very much interested in a mature, dispassionate dialogue about Islamic theology.

Thanks again for your response, and peace.

PS Sister, when Allah doesn't force us to believe, why do we Muslims do that to each other?

[sunni-from-iraq]

i am dissapointed with your decision but i respect it

[Usama2]

Peace be to those who seek Guidance.

All Glory belongs to the Most High, the Independent One, the Lord of the Worlds who is far above and beyond the petty imperfections and failings of men AND women.

I am NOT impressed by Peach's personal declaration against Islam and Muslims on this forum. It is disgraceful, and beyond proper etiquette to take the company of people who welcome you, only to at one point declare allegiance against them, despite enjoying their company.
How treacherous! And to expect that her treachery and insult is accepted and respected?


Islam IS a mercy from Allah to mankind.
It always has been and continues to be until the Last Day.
But Peach rejects this mercy while selfishly enjoying other mercies of Allah.
How is your health, Peach?
How are your provisions?
How is your family life?


I converted to Islam and faced many difficulties over the years to hold to Islam while living in the Darul shaytan that is American society.
By Allah, I made many sacrifices to hold fast to the Deen of Allah and worship the Most Merciful, the Most Loving, the Author of Peace.


In contrast, Peach has openly stated that she was raised in a Muslim household as a Muslim, taught all about Islam, surrounded by Muslims, has a good marriage and profession and life and Islam is secondary to her.

She has implied that she sacrificed little and done nothing for Allah, while HE, the Most Sublime, the Almighty, has been granted everything for her life. And yet, she has chosen a form of secular humanism propagated and preached by Western liberal ideologues who likely seem appealing and attractive to her.

It should be clear by her points of contention and her faulty logic.
Homosexuality is her point of contention?
Women's treatment is her point of contention?

She doesn't agree with Islam's social engineering, but subscribes to the social engineering of men, or what appears to more likely, the social engineering promoted by gay men and feminist women.

She would rather remain in Sodom and keep the company of its inhabitants because she doesn't like The Lord of the Worlds to command her to do anything.

This is what I read from her contributions in this thread.
She reflects the level of "freedom" that is alluded to by Western ideologues- that WOMEN in particular can rise above men, rise above family, even rise above God. The Guardian website has an CIF Comment from a woman author who loves and showers praise on parents, in particular a mother, who has attempted to diminish her 5 year old's son's masculine tendencies by dressing him in girl's clothes.

"Lucky Boy Raised Without Gender Roles" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/22/yvonne-roberts-gender-neutral-children)

This is what Peach seems to desire: social engineering to emasculate men, to deify women, to androgynize genders. And sadly, this is NOT of her own logical conclusion- this is a result of Western ideological propagation. When the US Sec of State Hillary Clinton demands "gay rights are human rights", it should be clear that people like Peach will bow down in obedience.


That is all for now.

May Allah guide those who submit to Him and seek His Mercy.

[sunni-from-iraq]

Peace be to those who seek Guidance.

All Glory belongs to the Most High, the Independent One, the Lord of the Worlds who is far above and beyond the petty imperfections and failings of men AND women.

I am NOT impressed by Peach's personal declaration against Islam and Muslims on this forum. It is disgraceful, and beyond proper etiquette to take the company of people who welcome you, only to at one point declare allegiance against them, despite enjoying their company.
How treacherous! And to expect that her treachery and insult is accepted and respected?


Islam IS a mercy from Allah to mankind.
It always has been and continues to be until the Last Day.
But Peach rejects this mercy while selfishly enjoying other mercies of Allah.
How is your health, Peach?
How are your provisions?
How is your family life?


I converted to Islam and faced many difficulties over the years to hold to Islam while living in the Darul shaytan that is American society.
By Allah, I made many sacrifices to hold fast to the Deen of Allah and worship the Most Merciful, the Most Loving, the Author of Peace.


In contrast, Peach has openly stated that she was raised in a Muslim household as a Muslim, taught all about Islam, surrounded by Muslims, has a good marriage and profession and life and Islam is secondary to her.

She has implied that she sacrificed little and done nothing for Allah, while HE, the Most Sublime, the Almighty, has been granted everything for her life. And yet, she has chosen a form of secular humanism propagated and preached by Western liberal ideologues who likely seem appealing and attractive to her.

It should be clear by her points of contention and her faulty logic.
Homosexuality is her point of contention?
Women's treatment is her point of contention?

She doesn't agree with Islam's social engineering, but subscribes to the social engineering of men, or what appears to more likely, the social engineering promoted by gay men and feminist women.

She would rather remain in Sodom and keep the company of its inhabitants because she doesn't like The Lord of the Worlds to command her to do anything.

This is what I read from her contributions in this thread.
She reflects the level of "freedom" that is alluded to by Western ideologues- that WOMEN in particular can rise above men, rise above family, even rise above God. The Guardian website has an CIF Comment from a woman author who loves and showers praise on parents, in particular a mother, who has attempted to diminish her 5 year old's son's masculine tendencies by dressing him in girl's clothes.

"Lucky Boy Raised Without Gender Roles" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/22/yvonne-roberts-gender-neutral-children)

This is what Peach seems to desire: social engineering to emasculate men, to deify women, to androgynize genders. And sadly, this is NOT of her own logical conclusion- this is a result of Western ideological propagation. When the US Sec of State Hillary Clinton demands "gay rights are human rights", it should be clear that people like Peach will bow down in obedience.


That is all for now.

May Allah guide those who submit to Him and seek His Mercy.

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path

[ahamed_sharif]

Assalamu alaykum

Sister Peach:

From your vast amount of knowledge about Islam you have quoted negatives (which you think). You have experienced the west, now from your knowledge please quote what Islam gives better than the west to both men and women. You will be doing justice to this forum members by posting that.

[Usama2]

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path

True, but she has hurt the feelings of my brothers and sisters and she has openly expressed treachery and demands it to be respected. I don't accept this from anyone in any instance. Why didn't she just disappear back into the black abyss of anonymity?

I left my Christian community by becoming Muslim, but I did not stand at the church door and shout out to the congregation what was wrong about them. Many of the people treated me well and were kind and I still respect them for that. But what kind of person does what Peach did?

[ahamed_sharif]

Assalamu alaykum



Either the poster is :
1. Telling the truth, she is not convinced of Islam.
or
2. She is just faking it, just another evangelical christians doing Taqiyya.

Br Amr
I strongly believe it is the second choice. Reading the first post itself made me convinced on that.

[amr123]

Assalamu alaykum

Br Amr
I strongly believe it is the second choice. Reading the first post itself made me convinced on that.

:ws: bro.

Its certainly a possibility, but there is nothing to lose giving her the benefit of doubt. People do reject Islam. It gives us a chance to convey Allah Ta'ala's message and :insh: we will get the reward for that. We should make Dua that both them and us are guided in the right path.

[NNoor]

:salam:


But I think we Muslims have trapped ourselves in mundane, fruitless banter about religion while our economies, political systems and societies are rotting away.

I've lived in the US all my life, and I can tell you, that this is true for the vast majority of Western nations as well. American democracy has failed, the family unit is dissolving, and the economy....well anyone who even skims the headlines knows what's going on. The West did not achieve its couple hundred centuries of prosperity because its ideological foundations are sound. Rather, it achieved prosperity through the exploitation and colonization of other people (although, to be fair, the rigorous pursuit of technological advancement was a huge, and admirable factor).

Additionally, there is no "Muslim" state today whose economy, political system or society is based on a correct implementation of shariah. However, the characteristic of apathy and laziness is not exclusive to Muslims. The majority of people in the world are like this; they are not concerned with improving their own communities. The people on this forum, however, I'd say are not part of that majority. Here you will find doctors, engineers, scholars who serve their communities in many different ways, despite participating in religious "banter".

[Shahed-560]

One more fan of sis Anybody...ha ha!
:ws:

السلام عليكم

Well, at least I am not fan of the lots in the glamour world. This sister becomes genuinely concerned when she offers ''counselling'' in any context. So mine was an spontaneous shout for help. May Allah grants Barakah in her life. Ameen!

[Maripat]

i am not welcoming her or any thing but well its her choice and me and you are not going to get punished for her actions lets all hope that allah guides her to the right path
:salam:
She made a decision in which we did not contribute directly. Then she came to tell us that we have helped her in that. She makes us a party to her hideous decision - as already noted by brothers here. When she is making us a party then we have a right to take action. To say the least her decision is not respectable. To respect kufr is kufr. We can not even accept her decision. To apostatize is kufr and no Muslim can accept that. She should not have come here. My suggestion goes in favour of deletion of this thread.
Wassalam

[abdul12345]

Many a people have left their faith and come back and those who don't live in the bitter reality of their decision with no happiness, contentment or peace of mind, the concept of the you being welcomed out of your faith with open arms getting rid of the burden of backwardness and turning a new leaf to success is an illussion, islam is a way of life which is why it is so complete from every concept of a persons life, a person is either submitted to his Lord or his nafs and shaytaan, homosexuality is a disease of the heart which like many other conditions of the heart such as extreme lust, passion, pride etc.if weaned in the right manner can go away and the heart can become cleansed if these illnesses are encouraged to spread their roots their evils will manifest themselves more in a persons life, everyone has these illnesses for some in the shape of homosexuality or even worse pride. A person is not born homosexual nor is one punished or sinning only when he agrees with the concept through action.

You say Islam is backward though I feel you are more refeclective of your own personal experience, if the way of life of the 7th century prophet is more advanced then what should we follow, if the way of the 7th century tells us to do istinjaa, and the atheists of the 21st century don't even know how to wash their backside then what should we follow, if the messenger tells us to treat our wives well and be romantic to them and be respectful to them and the atheist of the now tells his wife he loves her but kisses other women, is free to have an affair and divorces his wives without correct procedure or respect. If the messenger tells us to wash our hands before and after eating and the liberal tells us do what you want, if the messenger tells you to wash yourself after you have relations with your wife, if he says to serve your parents and liberals put them in a care home, the messenger showed love to the youth, learn knowledge, love for your muslim brother what you love for yourself, eat together as a family, to feed the poor. These gems are there and the more we follow the better our life will be. Islam is a whole way of life from which there is no alternative for yourself everything else is a mixture of this and that of culture and desire.

My advice is humble yourself, lower your pride and hurt over your experiences and turn back or you shall be swept away with no intention to come back, imaan look what is imaan. Imaan is worth more than to sell it cheap for a couple of minutes of this life of satisfying some carnel desires.

TURN BACK, as many have done in front of my eyes because there is nothing there, there is nothing there, every sin has a taint of kufr and to be a total kafir is total loss in this life and the hearafter.

There is no alternative to the Quran where is the alternative to the message of the Quran there is nothing comparable in its beauty, its message, its eloquence what is there Newtons book of physics, or poetry. Nothing compares why did the arabs say to messenger you a poet and when the Quran was to much for their poetry you are a magician, the liberals have no match for the Quran they don't look at the arabic they always work on the translation then to rubbish you off to look bad they say your backward, an islamist, a terrorist.

I could go on and on there is no alternative.

Remember islam is not in need of anyone, islam is a blessing of Allah so humble yourself and take the gift being offered to you. Many of the worst people become muslims because Allah is not dependent on anyone to give guidance e.g. sent his messenger to the arabs instead of the jews.

TAKE THE GIFT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Dvp7xQib-4

[Abu Zakir]

This led me to a critical study of Islam itself. "Don't look at Muslims, look at Islam" I was frequently told by friends. Yet the more I studied, the more I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century.

The biggest thorn for me has always been Islam's social engineering, its control over even the smallest aspects of human life. Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'. Its unbridled, unabashed male chauvinism. Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft. Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system. Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression. Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness.


You have made a huge mistake. The Quote above makes various assumptions:

1) You have a template in your mind, it is based on ' how things should be'.

2) The template itself is unexamined you just think it is the standard by which everything must be judged and evaluated.

Some detailed examples your words are in quotation marks:

"I felt it is a doctrine stuck in the 7th century"

Underlying assumption we are better humans than those living hundreds or thousands of years ago, we have progressed. No evidence?

"Its degradation of women into what Amnesty International calls 'perpetual minors'"

Islamic teaching does not do this, and where is the evidence that your standard does not do this? And Amnesty International promotes what? Last time I looked women in the west pay taxes, work very hard to make ends meet and contribute to the upkeep of the family, how is this freedom? Islam gives women the dignity to be women, to own their own property, to be business women, writers, saints, doctors etc., however it makes the man responsible for providing for the family. The western world by making women into wage workers have made all of us men and women into under valued wage slaves. Real wages remain low, if the woman does not work and contribute her wage to the family the mortgage does not get paid. This is freedom?

"Its outdated, retaliatory system of justice. Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals. Its belief in magic and witchcraft."

Outdated means, it does not compare to your contemporary 'high' standards, again there is nothing to prove no evidence to show that your system of justice is better and why. Many thinkers in the contemporary west eschew State created law, they prefer the British Common Law tradition where laws are discovered not made, and this resembles Islamic law. When parliaments make laws they usually create revenue for the State, they help create an economic elite who benefit from the laws and a vast prison system, in prison people get raped and physically beaten.

"Its denial of homosexuality as evil, and oppressive treatment of homosexuals."

Homosexuality is a minor issue, Islam publicly condemns it, but homosexuals are free to do what they want behind closed doors, no one can spy on them. And public approval of homosexuality gives the message that all is ok, sex has no function other than pleasure, no need to have children they are just a burden (births are rapidly falling amongst westerners). Sexually you can do whatever you like and you are 'free', economically you have to pay all your debts and taxes and so long as you do not rebel against the economic situation and you keep yourself busy fighting for your sexual freedom or trying to ful fill your desires all is ok. This is economic slavery to the state or the ruling elites who have engineered a slave system.

"Its belief in magic and witchcraft."

Despite your desire to make the world into nothing but matter, logic and reason, this whole way of looking at the world and constructing it, is becoming 'outmoded'. The world contains non logic, magic and mystery which your way of looking at the world just cannot admit. You have driven yourself into a cul de sac with no way out, the world is not disenchanted. Quantum Physics says all the matter we see and think it solid is actually made of mostly empty space with particles whizzing around at incredible speeds making it appear to be solid. And the human observer in any experiment, just by being present and observing affects the behaviour of the particles!

"Its abhorrence to any foreign practice, even if it doesn't interfere with a Muslim's belief system."

Such as?


"Its inherent opposition to democratic principles and freedom of expression."

Democracy does not work, it has been made into a type of unquestioned religion. In Britain 2011 just when it was fighting to establish democracy in the Arab world, they had riots by the populace! Why? Why are there people in Democratic Britain who felt it was ok to smash property, loot and in some cases do violence, murder and harm? Politicians are bought by the rich and they serve the rich. The banker bailouts prove this.

Freedom of expression does not exist, Democracy remains unquestioned, the banking system including its fractional reserve banking remains unquestioned. Taxation is theft, yet this remains unquestioned and anyone attempting to bring these subjects to the masses is marginalized and ridiculed.

"Its inability to allow Muslims to respectfully leave the faith for another belief system. Its intolerance for other belief systems in its midst. The various sects of Islam, all of whom try to outdo each other in their narrow-mindedness."

If you leave Islam it is your loss, you can embrace whatever new thing you want, leave the company of Muslims and go live where-ever you please and do what you want. Afterall why would you want to continue to live amongst people who follow an abhorrent religion?

[faizol]

so Peach, you leave Islam because you feel that Islam controls and forbids you from doing whatever you want, and now you feel liberated?

Which part of you is liberated? Your intellect? Or your desires?

If you say it is intellectually enlightening for you to leave Islam, that's just absurd as all the evidences point to Islam being the truth. All the signs of social upheavel are pointing to the coming of events which were told by the Beloved Prophet :saw: 1500 years ago. All the signs mentioned in the Quran are being discovered one by one by the humankind. And not even science can disprove it, especially when science itself is still is a moving goal and just relative in its nature.

Got a question for you. Since you said you studied and knowledgeable about Islam, I'm sure you've read about all the signs pertaining to the coming of Qiyamah (small and big). My question is, regardless about the signs are small or big, why didn't the events turn out differently from what was told by the Prophet :saw:? There are myriads of paths for actions by the people from the generations of the Prophet :saw: to now, but why didn't the human actions take a different path from what was told to us by the Prophet :saw:? It's easy for one event to turn out right from a "prediction", but to have a 10 out of 10 "predictions" to be right would have a much smaller probablity. And more so for 50/50.

If you say you feel fresh and liberated after leaving Islam since you can do whatever your desire/lust wants, well, Islam is supposed to control the human's desire or lusts. But do not be mistaken about "self liberation", as the real free man or woman is the ones who are free from their desire (materialistics, lusts, etc) for they can clearly see the reason why they are here in the first place. Those who can't will be drowned in the worldly wealth/desires. The ironic is, the deeper they are drowning, the more they will try to cling to their worldly wealths and desires.

Allah Knows Best.

[Abu_Dahdah]

I pray, my dear sister, that you are guided back to the servitude of Allah from the servitude of His creation and your desires. I pray that you are guided back to vastness of the Hereafter from the narrowness of this world.

I think rather than doing your "independent" research, you should make one last sincere dua to Allah. "O Allah! If Islam is the right path you have chosen for your servants, then enlighten me with it's light".

Until then,
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion [109:6]

[UserInvalid]

@UserInvalid: I was raised in a Muslim household in a Muslim-majority country. I was obviously aware of the reasoning behind almost everything prescribed and forbidden in Islam. You somehow assume I have inadequate Islamic learning which caused me to leave Islam; if this satisfies your Islamic ego so be it (I mean, either that or I have to be possessed by the devil to do something like this, right?). So I think this "you-did-not-have-enough-knowledge" attitude is childish and presumptuous. And pray tell me, if I were to fall at the feet of an 'alim (which, one, is un-Islamic and two, would be insulting to my dignity as a woman) would he tell me that homosexuality is a natural thing, hence acceptable in Islam? Would he tell me that traditional Islam is unfair to women or would he tell me magic is a stupid concept? All the things I mentioned in the post are my uncompromising positions and I know there is no way traditional Islam can agree with these. The 'alim would only persuade me to believe what's already said in the books of Islam, he'd indoctrinate me, intimidate me with hell (actual hell, not figurative), use twisted Zakir-Naikish reasoning, perhaps narrate a couple of stories from Sunnah to drive home his point.

There is New Islam out there. People like Asra Nomani and Irshad Manji and, to a lesser degree, Tariq Ramadan (and many, many others) represent it. I was once a believer in it. Reforming Islam. Ijtihad, modern thought and all of that, I swallowed it hook, line and sinker. But I also discovered I have no real spirituality in me. I did not believe in Islam per se. It was more of a blind insurance policy, a fake shoulder to cry over and hope for support. Perhaps I got selfish, for I took the easier path and got what I wanted for everyone just for myself, instead of staying on and fighting for change in the community.

You must realize (not just you, almost everyone on this forum) that me leaving Islam is perhaps a victory for the Islam you represent. Like you said, I'm saying (rightly or wrongly) "Islam is... a package". Which is why I began my post with profuse gratitude, not just to this forum but everyone who made me understand this about (traditional) Islam. I agree with you that Islam is a complete way of life, and I reject that way of life. Every aspect of it. Because, like you, I do not believe it is possible to change Islam (or at least, I have given up hope). Of course, we can say female imams are fine or that the extent of hijab is culturally defined or with modern standards of hygiene, pork is okay. You can do that and much more, but then you cease to be following the Prophet's message.

I understand most people on this forum want to increase their faith in Islam and accept more and more things from the Islamic package into their lives and invite more people to Islam. I respect your faith and your conviction. I'm not interested in mocking Islam or making fun of Muslims. They, like devout followers of any faith, are the nicest of people. Nor am I interested in pitting Islam against any other ideology, whether political or religious, and say that's better. Every system of belief and governance we have on this planet is imperfect and most problems arise when their ardent supporters are indoctrinated about how flawless their arrangement is. All I'm saying is Islam isn't for me. It's unfortunate that I was born a Muslim (for both me and Muslims) and I just corrected that. No bad blood intended.

And lastly, perhaps I did hurt a lot of people who read this post, because as a Muslim when I used to observe others in non-Islamic acts, it really hurt. And I would like to sincerely apologize for that too, but I felt I have a story linked to sunniforum.com and I must share it.

In the best of Islamic traditions, peace be upon you.

I will catch up with this when I get time. Sure you will have a good answer coming across to this.

It is most likely on thursday or friday inshallah.

[sunni-from-iraq]

:salam:
She made a decision in which we did not contribute directly. Then she came to tell us that we have helped her in that. She makes us a party to her hideous decision - as already noted by brothers here. When she is making us a party then we have a right to take action. To say the least her decision is not respectable. To respect kufr is kufr. We can not even accept her decision. To apostatize is kufr and no Muslim can accept that. She should not have come here. My suggestion goes in favour of deletion of this thread.
Wassalam

no we did not guid here on this forum it only says she made 4 posts and there only on this forum and i dont remember people posting questions with the same subject she has talked about. to me she just looks like an internet spammer and i agree this post should be delited

[Abu Dajanaa]

I

The internet has permitted this amazing new culture of anonymity, where I can fearlessly state my beliefs. I'm lucky to have a husband who understands and supports my actions and convictions, although he considers himself a Muslim (not a practicing one though). We've already left Saudi for the safe havens of the UK, where of course, the state doesn't give a damn about who I worship even if it is domesticated cattle or David Beckham.


UK is not a safe haven for you. Indeed you will taste death and you will be questioned about how you lived your life.

[TripolySunni]

Salam 'Aleykum,

For me Islam makes sense, I think you may have serious problem in how you understand religion/life and it could be you're influenced by western culture and are seeking attention/pleasure only.

UNLIKE YOU, I wasn't born in a practicing Muslim family, quite the opposite my father used to drink, to me Islam this is spirituality, to me this is a purpose to my life, to me this makes perfect sense.

Salam 'Aleykum and Allah guides who he wills when he wills and in any situation.

EDIT:

PS. I think peach that you are indoctrinated by western society, I'd rather be indoctrinated by the religion of Allah. (I've also read your reasons, not very good ones)

[TripolySunni]

:bism:

i second..the deletion of this thread.

Request To Mod..in future block all these kind of threads which might affect youths/adults emaans..

Salam 'Aleykum,

I say leave this thread open, let's discuss her reasons and debate her if she wishes for a debate, the brothers already did a good job of showing what this so called "Riddah" is all about, worldly materialistic desire of the flesh.

Keep the thread open because this is the age of Fitnah, the age of the propagation of falsehood in every corner of the world, so do not think for a second that this is the first/last time you/we will encounter such cases, and so we must learn to debate/discuss with them.

[not known]

Now comes the part where you would probably think I'm an internet troll.

My curiosity about Islam rose when I saw my girlfriends being regular in their prayers and dealing with everything in their life, from make-up to marriage, after figuring out an Islamic perspective over it.

I'm lucky to have a husband who understands and supports my actions and convictions, although he considers himself a Muslim (not a practicing one though).

Just made me think twice..

[NeednoName]

Salam 'Aleykum,

I say leave this thread open, let's discuss her reasons and debate her if she wishes for a debate, the brothers already did a good job of showing what this so called "Riddah" is all about, worldly materialistic desire of the flesh.

Keep the thread open because this is the age of Fitnah, the age of the propagation of falsehood in every corner of the world, so do not think for a second that this is the first/last time you/we will encounter such cases, and so we must learn to debate/discuss with them.

Agree!

Also, with the deleltion of this thread, we will lose wonderful replies given to the OP by our Brothers and Sisters.

Assalaam'aaleykum!

[Abu Zakir]

Imagine you are living your last day on earth, by the end of today you will die, you know it the doctors have told you, you are just waiting for the inevitable end. What will you be thinking about?

I used to work with a non Muslim 34 year old Engineering Phd. She had it 'all', money, wealth, status, 'freedom', health, youth, yet in a split second she was involved in a car accident and she was dead. Gone, all that education, all that status all gone within a moment. Today she is barely remembered by anyone, 100 years from now many of us will have passed on too. The question we all need to ask is why? What is it all about? We come to the world not knowing anything, we pick up some ideas from the people we live amongst, we bloom in youth and before we know it, we are middle aged and very soon after that we are old and ready for our graves. Lets us say we spend 20 years of that life fighting for homosexual rights and the 'right to vote' for a politician, would this really be considered a worthwhile thing to have done? Why? I achieve great wealth, fame and my status is high, my influence can be felt in high places, people want my opinion I am a VIP.

If there is no life after death, no God, and all claims of morality or right and wrong are just based on what some people decide at any given time and place...then life is worth nothing, we may as well be microscopic bugs in a pond somewhere, it all has no meaning. This is atheism. Trying to build a society on something like that is bound to fail and turn everyone into the slaves of the law makers.

Islam teaches that human life has a purpose, that we are accountable for our actions, that every second of life and every breath is limited and from the All Merciful Creator, so that we can know Him, Love Him, Serve His Creation and earn our eternal life so that we can be with Him. That human history is made up of Messengers and Prophets being sent by the All-Merciful to Guide, Warn and give Good News to other human Beings. Why would any rational person choose to reject this for the way of Atheist Nihilism? May Allah Most High save us from such stupidity and my He Protect us under His Mercy until our last breath while we are saying La ila ha ilallah (no God only Allah). Ameen.

[TripolySunni]

Agree!

Also, with the deleltion of this thread, we will lose wonderful replies given to the OP by our Brothers and Sisters.

Assalaam'aaleykum!

wa 'Aleykum el-Salam,

Indeed,

{And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them.} [18:29]

[TripolySunni]

Oh and just so no one would feel down, here's a video that mentions statistics of the huge number of converts to Islam in the west (by the will of Allah):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbKqqai1V-c

[nauk]

Thank you once again for having this amazing resource where we can all discuss and paint a true picture of Islam, and decide for ourselves if Islam is right for us.


I accept all major debit/credit cards.

[muminah]

Peach,

I don't want to attempt to reason with you, as there is no point arguging with you when you have already made your mind up and you are not looking for the truth. You are presenting 'excuses' for your disbelief, whereas the truth is that these excuses are nothing but excuses. You don't believe in Allah and the Prophet Mohammad, so stop making excuses as to why you don't believe. If you sincerely believed in Allah and his rasool (or even a God), then all your 'excuses' wouldn't even matter, because the truth is these 'issues' (even if there were issues and true) are very minor (if you look at it from the perspective of the bigger picture).

I politely request you and all the people that have read this thread to watch this talk by Ustadh Nouman Ali Khan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTvYuS9BqbU

Sisters and brothers, what Peach is describing is nothing new. If people left Islam when the Prophet SAW was alive and the miracles were staring right in their face, this is nothing. If Banu Israeel after seeing the sea split into two still turned their backs, this is nothing. So don't be disturbed. Instead this should be a reminder to us all that Allah can take the blessing of eemaan (faith) from us any day, and we need to make efforts and pray to him that eemaan isn't taken away from us due to our own arrogance and sins. May Allah protect me first and foremost, and all of you too. Aameen

Peach, thank you for sharing your story with us. It has just reminded us all how blessed we are that we have been gifted with gift of emaan (faith in Allah), and how much more time we need to spend thanking Allah for the ni'mah of eeman (faith), and how we need to pray to Allah to protect us from the path of those who have gone astray (i.e focus more in Salah when praying surah Fatihah).

[Aram]

erm you probably want to discuss this more with your husband if he considers himself a muslim because you not having faith may effect the validity of your marriage

[AbuFatimah]

UK is not a safe haven for you. Indeed you will taste death and you will be questioned about how you lived your life.

Subhanallah, very true brother. I liked this response.

This thread stregnthened my iman, 1 by hammering the point home that the west has a million different versions of right and wrong and each person will view islam by his own set of rules, and unless they conform he will reject islam. This is obviously flawed and the point about naked beaches and legality of drugs hammered that home.

Also its very true that many of the signs of qiyaama were spot on. E.g. Large in number but weakness in our hearts while many nations come together against islam. Subhanallah, how accurate. a time when women will be naked yet clothed. Before our times, scholars thought this was metaphorical because they didnt understand how a woman can be dressed yet naked, yet for us this isnt difficult to imagine.

I feel greatful to be muslim, i ask allah to purify islam of the rubbish, who only drag the ummah down. The ummah is not in need of the slaves and worshippers of the west, if u think its so free, come and live here, come see how riddled with crime, racial hatred, corruption, destruction to the earth etc it is, come and live in this 'great haven' because your taking up precious space in the muslim lands for those of us who wish to seek refuge and shelter from this fitnah ridden society. Im a revert btw, british born and bred. thankfully there is a wave of disillusioned western muslims who suffer nothing but oppression and hardship in the west, headed back to the muslim lands to let them know they are mission nothing at all by not living here. This life is not free. Your own children will grow up thinking its good to swear at their own parents, that its uncool to still be a virgin at 16, the place is riddled with std's, we are taxed to kingdom come to fuel wars and nonsense, this life isnt good, its a life of bondage and imprisonment, in the west u feel a slave to the dunya. The western way of living is to slave away 9 till 5 mon-fri, spend the evenings blankly staring at soaps, at escaping from the world at weekend by drinking copious amounts of alochol and recovering the next day, just to repeat the cycle the following week, until ur life has passed u by, u cant go to the toilet by urself, ur children throw u in an old peoples home, ur wife have a 50% chance of being divorced, what kind of is this, and to top it off, in order to maintain this way of life, we must suck resources from the world at an unrealistic and unsustainable rate, that cant be sustained more than 20 years or so before the world will collapse. Maybe u need to go experience the western way of life to see how wrong they are in their ideolgies. You sound very blessed to be brought up in an environment where ur happily married, good job, no pressures in life, do u know how many people in the west have this? Go throw it all away if u like, its not my problem, ill be asked about me on judgement day, not you, and i dont think the ummah needs stragglers, we can do without them right now as its them who are the enemy from within, trying to westernise dar al islam while still claiming to be muslim. As u said, its better to come out as an apostate than pretend to be muslim and push for secular capitalism in our lands. May allah never allow that fitnah to be firmly established in the muslim lands. I have a lot moretobt dont feel its worth my time. May allah guide you and guide me

[ahmad12]

:salam:

Sister Anybody, you seriously need to write books/articles or something, your posts are always spot on :mash:

:jazak:

[faizol]

..[snip]...
I have known a few Muslims who stop believing in Islam, and after several years turn back. And I've read about a few famous ones too. You yourself say that you've been an atheist before, so you should perhaps understand better than some of the hyper-reactive users on this forum. I don't know if you were born Muslim, but I bet you can't even describe the joy, the peace of mind of believing in Islam after being an atheist. To finally know that you have arrived, on your own, to the truth. I know most people around me believe in Islam because they were told so at a young age. Their belief is a matter of ego, that what they've always been told has to be right. At least that's how I felt. Why is it that so many Muslims, even on this forum, worry more about rather peripheral issues like how women dress or why polygamy should be allowed or debunking various sects within Islam and declaring them kafir, than focusing on the most important things in Islam: belief in Allah and the Messenger, prayers, fasting, etc.?

So do you wish to deny me that quest for truth? I do not hold any grudge against Allah or the Messenger, as people here appear to have assumed. I'll be happy to believe in Islam but on my own accord. I want to be a Muslim not because I was born as one, or for fear that my society won't accept me otherwise. Right now, many things in Islam appear wrong to me and I believe continuing as a Muslim would be hypocritical. I may arrive at something else that would give me spiritual bliss, but there is something inside me that just hopes it is Islam, so that I can be at peace with the world around me.

You talk about me judging Islam. Your real issue is that I've a negative judgement of Islam. If I were to be ignorant and said flowery things about the religion, you wouldn't really care, would you? I do not claim to be a scholar in Islam, yet my knowledge isn't as limited as you'd like to paint. And even though I hate this patronizing attitude, I do not take offence because I understand your perspective. However, for meaningful dialogue I'd prefer you don't treat me with kid gloves ("I do not believe you have studied human nature or its myriad perversities manifested in the world". Seriously?). I've not exchanged Islam for any other (established) belief, but I'm open to that. Meanwhile, I'm very much interested in a mature, dispassionate dialogue about Islamic theology.

Thanks again for your response, and peace.

PS Sister, when Allah doesn't force us to believe, why do we Muslims do that to each other?

So in essence, you were disillusioned with your own cultural upbringing and you blamed Islam for that without even knowing what Islam is except on the surface? If you realized the difference between local/tribal culture and Islam, then you would focus on studying Islam rather than be distracted by your surrounding cultural problems/issues. It seems like you're just using Islam as an escapism and an excuse to blame for all the problems in your society cultural upbringing.

[pluto]

السلام عليكم

Well, at least I am not fan of the lots in the glamour world. This sister becomes genuinely concerned when she offers ''counselling'' in any context. So mine was an spontaneous shout for help. May Allah grants Barakah in her life. Ameen!

:ws: bro Shahed, I said that in a positive way, I look forward to reading sis Anybody's posts and thats' why I said 'One more fan'...I have probably read every post of her's.

Anyways, sister Anybody and bro Usama2, brilliant posts, others too. Aameen to bro Shahed's dua in everyone's favor who helped. And I agree with bro Fusus, she needs dua's (assuming she isn't a troll).

[pluto]

:salam:

Sister Anybody, you seriously need to write books/articles or something, your posts are always spot on :mash:

:jazak:

+1

[amr123]

And I agree with bro Fusus, she needs dua's (assuming she isn't a troll).

:salam: bro,
A troll converting would be nice. :insh: Allahu Alam.

I have heard some people who studied Islam to refute it ended up converting to Islam.

[pluto]

:salam: bro,
A troll converting would be nice. :insh: Allahu Alam.

I have heard some people who studied Islam to refute it ended up converting to Islam.

:ws: brother, I didn't think of it that way, thats some cool hikmah man, many many have reverted that way.

[faizol]

Peach,

Your post actually reminds me of the hadith by the Prophet :saw: as per why some men will tie up their mothers, wives and daughters to prevent them from joining dajjal laknatullah, as the females of the house would be tempted to join a feminism movement, which would be among the largest group to support dajjal laknatullah.

Allah Knows Best.

[mmb786]

:inna: wow. this thread is sad man. why do sum ppl choose to be blind???

sis peach i hope u reconsider your decision and treasure the give which ALLAH gave you (your imaan) instead of throwing it away.

[Shahed-560]

:salam:

Sister Anybody, you seriously need to write books/articles or something, your posts are always spot on :mash:

:jazak:

السلام عليكم

I am trying to collect all the posts of sister Anybody. Wallahi, she has this gift from Allah (SWT) as if she can see through the problem at hand and offers remedial course of action with heartfelt feelings that seems like she is counselling one of her own brothers/sisters. I am not showering undue praise on her but trying to appreciate her endeavours for betterment of Ummah and humanity as a whole. Our prayer to the Bestower of All that good that as she tries to see others succeed, so Allah make her and her family prosper in all walks of life.

[Maripat]

A single person going down is a big tragedy but this was her considered decision and she is not responding any more therefore we might turn our attention to other matters.

[pluto]

:salam: This thread reinforces by belief in the importance of daawah first amongst ourselves (Muslims).

And May Allah SWT accept bro Usama2 and sister Anybody for the work of daawah 24/7/365 on the tarteeb of the tj with ikhlaas, isteqaamatt and aafiyatt. Summa aameen. Dua is for all including me but esp. to Usama2 and Anybody.

[peach]

I'm not a 'slave of the West' as people have described me. I'd rather live in my own country, but as I said earlier, I'd have to live a double life out of fear even though my country India is secular. I do not fear for my life because I don't intend to make a public announcement about my new beliefs. But there will always be people who just cannot mind their own business and I'm just taking an extreme precaution. As I'd said earlier, I'm not a fan of Western capitalism, I do not agree with a lot of Western values and I certainly do not agree with how feminism has been exchanged for this culture of sexual obsession. But one thing definitely has to be respected. You have a voice in the Western world. You can raise your concerns and nobody is going to punish you for speaking out. Or at least it is very hard to do so. Your opinion as an individual is respected even if it is vehemently disagreed upon by many. My first principle is personal freedom: what a person or a group of persons does, says or thinks is none of my business as long as it doesn't affect me. And if it does, I can reply to them in the same tone. And this is where Islam and I depart. Islam puts every individual of the society in a straitjacket to ensure the smooth functioning of the society where everyone has clearly defined roles. I do not agree with that principle. In fact what I believe in is not agreed upon by the West either. They call it a breakdown of social order. I call it anarchy. A society where you can do whatever you feel like, as long as you don't step on someone else's toes. Now obviously, none of you here would agree with that, nor would I persuade you to. All I'm saying is, I'm leaving in peace because I don't (yes, I may be very very immature and lacking in knowledge, perhaps even retarded - this is just so that you don't repeat these over and over) believe I have anything in common with Muslim beliefs.

PS I was wondering if for a few people on this forum, the general Muslim etiquette for being polite and courteous doesn't apply when it comes to talking to an 'apostate'? (Don't get me wrong, most of the replies have been nice and polite, some understandably saddened, some praying for me - thanks for that, but some were just outright insulting)

[amr123]

You have a voice in the Western world. You can raise your concerns and nobody is going to punish you for speaking out. Or at least it is very hard to do so. Your opinion as an individual is respected even if it is vehemently disagreed upon by many.

You might wanna re think about the 'voice' part: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?83397-Norway-snatches-away-children-from-Indian-couple

[amr123]

:bism:

“Everyone shall taste death.
And only on the day of Resurrection shall you be paid your wages in full.
And whoever is removed away from the fire and admitted to Paradise he indeed is successful.
The life of this world is only the enjoyment of deception (a deceiving thing).”

(Aal-‘Imraan 3: 175)

[Anybody]

Bismillah Ir-Rehman Ir-Raheem

Peace, Sister Peach:

I apologize, but I have not had time yet to reply to your post. However, I do wanted to let you know that I did note that you had replied. That being said, Insha-Allah, I will respond when I have the time. Presently, you have a lot of misconceptions about how the Western world operates in terms of its not adopting a paternalistic attitude towards its citizens, which it does. Also, many of your ideas about freedom and pursuit of happiness stem from fallacious and misleading rhetoric that the West propagandizes as a means of undercutting and silencing genuine public grievances and its own homegrown critics.

One of the biggest problems in Muslim societies that I personally perceive as an evil is degeneration of critical thinking skills necessary in our time for all human beings to be able to easily read the biases inherent in reasoning of Western ideologies.

Also, my dear, misguided Sister, I have no problem with anyone challenging Islam, because Allah Himself in the Quran has challenged non-Muslims to understand His signs and find imperfections in what is Perfect. So, I am not concerned about that issue. What I am concerned about are different issues, pertinent to this war of ideologies, wherein Islam is automatically relegated to the shelf as an outdated edifice. This is problematic on many levels: intellectually, individually and collectively, culturally, psychologically, socially, and even politically. This is what I meant when I referenced the myriad perversities manifested from human nature into the world and an aspect from which the "Western world" so-to-speak shies but Islam does not because it is a practical way of life for all time.

Without going into any details, that is all I feel capable of sharing or writing right now, and I will Insha-Allah have time to contribute more sometime later.

If I have said anything that is good and true, it is from Allah, and anything other than that is my own mistake.

[3thm4n]

The woman is a troll, but her issues should still be responded to intellectually, in case someone else comes along with the same misconceptions.

However, notice that she actually has no concrete "objections" to make; she's already made up her mind, hence her "thank-you" message.

Troll.

[abdulwahhab]

:salam:

Can the moderators please close this thread? Here, I'll summarize all of peach's past, present, and future posts:

"I think Islam doesn't suit my lifestyle and thought process and since I don't care about something being the truth but more about how I feel about it, I'm going to leave Islam."

Why are brothers and sisters continuing to entertain this person? She made this thread to either troll or insult Muslims. It's not as if she has raised any of her doubts with regards to the truth in Islam but more with subjective matters of morality. These obviously cannot be changed in a person who is as thickheaded and uncompromising as her and who does not place the truth and objectivity above her subjectivity.

I can't even compare this to any other religion since all the other religions contain lies and falsehoods. Her logic for leaving Islam is the same as someone leaving Islam because eating pork is forbidden in Islam or drinking alcohol is forbidden in Islam - all are reasons of satisfying desires rather than any spiritually and academically honest objection.

I also ask that this thread be deleted. Yes, there are valuable posts in this thread but the person has not raised anything against Islam with regards to its authenticity and truth. The person has left Islam based on their own flawed morality. If a person leaves Islam not based on what they perceive to be the truth, then the person leaves Islam simply as a matter of ease. Even if Allah :taala: were to speak directly and command this person to do such and such, she would refuse because it would be against her flawed morality. She doesn't question the authenticity of the commands - she just rejects them. What is there to say to such a person?

[sunni-from-iraq]

:salam:

Can the moderators please close this thread? Here, I'll summarize all of peach's past, present, and future posts:

"I think Islam doesn't suit my lifestyle and thought process and since I don't care about something being the truth but more about how I feel about it, I'm going to leave Islam."

Why are brothers and sisters continuing to entertain this person? She made this thread to either troll or insult Muslims. It's not as if she has raised any of her doubts with regards to the truth in Islam but more with subjective matters of morality. These obviously cannot be changed in a person who is as thickheaded and uncompromising as her and who does not place the truth and objectivity above her subjectivity.

I can't even compare this to any other religion since all the other religions contain lies and falsehoods. Her logic for leaving Islam is the same as someone leaving Islam because eating pork is forbidden in Islam or drinking alcohol is forbidden in Islam - all are reasons of satisfying desires rather than any spiritually and academically honest objection.

I also ask that this thread be deleted. Yes, there are valuable posts in this thread but the person has not raised anything against Islam with regards to its authenticity and truth. The person has left Islam based on their own flawed morality. If a person leaves Islam not based on what they perceive to be the truth, then the person leaves Islam simply as a matter of ease. Even if Allah :taala: were to speak directly and command this person to do such and such, she would refuse because it would be against her flawed morality. She doesn't question the authenticity of the commands - she just rejects them. What is there to say to such a person?

agreed

[Labid Suleiman]

agreed

For what it's worth, I agree as well.