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Shamli 1857
13-02-2012, 07:32 PM
السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

Brothers and Sisters,

Is Al Kauthar Institute a Salafi organisation? This is their website http://www.alkauthar.org/

Could members of this forum provide their personal views and experiences to answer the above question.

I would prefer informed answers that are backed with substance.

Thanks

Shamli 1857

NNoor
13-02-2012, 07:37 PM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?56899-Al-Kauthar-institute....is-it-salafi-or-deobandi

AbuFatimah
13-02-2012, 07:38 PM
al kawthar is a great organisation that teaches a lot of good mashAllah

I dont think there are many courses that will disagree with the deobandi aqeedah, the site you provided has a list of their courses so someone can correct me if they can name which course and what specific part of the content make them salafis

Servant.of.Allah
13-02-2012, 08:21 PM
What about Riyad As Saliheen rsiusa.org?

afriki_haqq
13-02-2012, 08:25 PM
:salam:

I know of people who after attending a few of their courses have become your typical Salafis. Of course I am not generalising and this is from the few that I know. Also, in South Africa we have prominent Salafi figures promoting AK - that on its own says enough. These same Salafi "scholars" have on numerous occasions, and this is well known fact in South Africa, attacked Deobandis and Deobandi Ulama such as Mufti AK Hoosen, etc.

Definitely to stay away. Although we admit that they are doing good work :alham: and this should be awaken us to make an effort as well. And :alham: many 'Ulama are doing good work but in a South African context more can be done.

:ws:



PS: I did ask a local scholar regarding AK and he has studied their course material, etc and he said AK are Salafi, if you like you can verify with him via www.rihla.co.za

Also I am sure AK and Al-Maghrib have been discussed on the forum previously at great length. Search for those.

Servant.of.Allah
13-02-2012, 09:49 PM
The society is now very bad, people are asking for proof even if we tell them - Its Sunnah to fast monday, thursday.

I am from India. If my forefather would have asked the proof from Arab traders, today what would have happened to me?

amr123
14-02-2012, 12:03 AM
P.s. The Al Kawthar Academy is different from the Al kawthar institute thats being discussed in this thread.
The Al Kawthar Academy is the one in which Sheik Riyad ul Haq teaches(not salafi), I think its in Birmingham.
The Al Kawthar Institute is the salafi one.

Shamli 1857
14-02-2012, 08:04 AM
:salam:

I know of people who after attending a few of their courses have become your typical Salafis. Of course I am not generalising and this is from the few that I know. Also, in South Africa we have prominent Salafi figures promoting AK - that on its own says enough. These same Salafi "scholars" have on numerous occasions, and this is well known fact in South Africa, attacked Deobandis and Deobandi Ulama such as Mufti AK Hoosen, etc.

Definitely to stay away. Although we admit that they are doing good work :alham: and this should be awaken us to make an effort as well. And :alham: many 'Ulama are doing good work but in a South African context more can be done.

:ws:



PS: I did ask a local scholar regarding AK and he has studied their course material, etc and he said AK are Salafi, if you like you can verify with him via www.rihla.co.za

Also I am sure AK and Al-Maghrib have been discussed on the forum previously at great length. Search for those.

Thanks for the feedback. Would I be right to assume that these individuals downplay the Salafi label to work among Hanafis (particularly Deobandis in the UK and South Africa)?
They claim some of their teachers are Deobandi - how does this all fit in?

afriki_haqq
14-02-2012, 08:29 AM
Thanks for the feedback. Would I be right to assume that these individuals downplay the Salafi label to work among Hanafis (particularly Deobandis in the UK and South Africa)?
They claim some of their teachers are Deobandi - how does this all fit in?

Yes, this is correct. They would not openly claim to be Salafi and from what I have heard some of their courses it seems as if they are accommodating of the various madha'ib. It is true that some of the lecturers do come from Deobandi backgrounds, studied at Deobandi Darul 'Ulooms, etc. This (downplaying the Salafi label, claiming to be Deobandi, etc) is simply a conniving and misleading methodology (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?82585-Hanbali-or-Salafi&highlight=) that they employ and unfortunately many have been lost.

On another thread (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?64420-Who-is-Sheikh-Tariq-Appleby-Please-Reply-Soon.&highlight=bilal+ismail) our forum Ameer Saheb, Mufti Husain (HA) says (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?64420-Who-is-Sheikh-Tariq-Appleby-Please-Reply-Soon.&p=534668&viewfull=1#post534668):


:salam: brother:)

Is everyone in alkauthar salafi? I thought that Shaykh Bilal Ismail was Hanafi?
Wasalaam.


:ws:

Tariq Appleby, Bilal Ismail etc are all Salafi's.

:alhamd: there are institutes that our 'Ulama have set up such as Shaykh Riyadh al-Haqs Al-Kawthar Academy and As-Suffa Institute and others. The challenge is to take them out there to the public and :insh: there will be success.

Surely, haqq will always prevail.

London786
14-02-2012, 08:46 AM
maulana shamli I attended some of their courses in the UK by shaykh tawfique chawdhury the esteemed student of shaykh mukhtar ash shinqiti db from Madinah Munawara. I found it very good to say the least.

faisal ahmad
14-02-2012, 10:41 AM
Yes they are salafi and hence best to stay away from them, particularly, similar to Al-Maghrib they use an insidious 'we are just Muslim' approach.

The likes of Bilal Ismail are sometimes advertised as being from a 'deobandi/tableeghi family' (possibly to draw crowds in south africa), but in reality people like him have studied at Madinah University and as Mufti Husain confirmed are salafi.

Aram
14-02-2012, 11:05 AM
it does seem like they have changed over the years and and try to appeal to as wide of an audience as they can...even their teachers have changed in their stances....a lot of it seems to be marketing...but ofcourse Allah knows best

im sure some of their courses are beneficial, i have never attended them but recently i have come across people who claim to be students of these institutes and when it comes to fiqh etc their understanding seems well kind of non-existent :$

i have seen them making statements like

"i dont stick to a madhab rather i look for the strongest opinion"
err no you don't literally go out and look for the strongest opinion...you follow what your scholars tell you is the strongest opinion according to their knowledge

"I don't mind madhabs as long as they don't contain bidah and shirk"
This just made me laugh...clearly they don't understand what a madhab is

"I am mostly hanafi but i believe we shouldn't follow imam Abu Hanifah in everything..sometimes we can follow our heart"
because your heart which has no knowledge is always right :rolleyes:

basically for the amount they are paying for these courses...the people i have personally come across are just ahle confused :p

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 12:54 PM
Jazakallah for the feedback. I think the style of operation of the Al-Kauthar group in terms of not wearing their Salafism on their sleeves and showing themselves to be Hanafi/Deobandi is problematic. This requires some serious work.

Aram
15-02-2012, 12:58 PM
Jazakallah for the feedback. I think the style of operation of the Al-Kauthar group in terms of not wearing their Salafism on their sleeves and showing themselves to be Hanafi/Deobandi is problematic. This requires some serious work.

i have heard from a lot of people that Bilal Ismail is a hanafi? i even remember some salafis on ahya forum having a rant about him and why alkauthar was allowing madhabis to preach their stuff

maybe he is hanafi in fiqh and salafi in aqeedah :confused:

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 01:45 PM
i have heard from a lot of people that Bilal Ismail is a hanafi? i even remember some salafis on ahya forum having a rant about him and why alkauthar was allowing madhabis to preach their stuff

maybe he is hanafi in fiqh and salafi in aqeedah :confused:

This is what gets confusing. There are other members of the Al Kauthar teaching crew who seem to present themselves also as Hanafi among us, but then project themselves as Salafis among them. I think this dual-personality is more current among those of the Al Kauthar crew who happen to come from Gujarati-Deobandi communities. Any thoughts on this?

afriki_haqq
15-02-2012, 01:48 PM
This is what gets confusing. There are other members of the Al Kauthar teaching crew who seem to present themselves also as Hanafi among us, but then project themselves as Salafis among them. I think this dual-personality is more current among those of the Al Kauthar crew who happen to come from Gujarati-Deobandi communities. Any thoughts on this?

This is deception, and the one who deceives is not from amongst us.

Servant.of.Allah
15-02-2012, 02:18 PM
what about rsiusa.org

Aram
15-02-2012, 02:33 PM
This is what gets confusing. There are other members of the Al Kauthar teaching crew who seem to present themselves also as Hanafi among us, but then project themselves as Salafis among them. I think this dual-personality is more current among those of the Al Kauthar crew who happen to come from Gujarati-Deobandi communities. Any thoughts on this?

i don't know im not part of the gujarati deobandi community...but i do recall salafis on a salafi forum being very annoyed about some course that he did where he told everyone he is a hanafi

but i think they the type of 'hanafis' that are against taqlid shakhsi....and is what they promote...which is kinda irresponsible as they are preaching this to students who have no basic knowledge of fiqh from what i have seen of the students of al kauthar :confused: some of them don't even seem to understand what a madhab is

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 03:51 PM
i don't know im not part of the gujarati deobandi community...but i do recall salafis on a salafi forum being very annoyed about some course that he did where he told everyone he is a hanafi

but i think they the type of 'hanafis' that are against taqlid shakhsi....and is what they promote...which is kinda irresponsible as they are preaching this to students who have no basic knowledge of fiqh from what i have seen of the students of al kauthar :confused: some of them don't even seem to understand what a madhab is

I think their usage of the word Hanafi is in the literal meaning (as in monotheist) and not the common ('urfi) meaning, as in an adherent of the Hanafi mathhab. They seem to employ this lexical strategy to confuse the Hanafi laity. I presume not all Salafis recognise this and therefore criticise the Al Kauthar crew because of this. Their are also various strands within the Salafis and the criticism might be based on this. I know some Salafis who are particularly vocal in their critcism of the Al Kauthar and Al Maghrib lot.

pluto
15-02-2012, 03:51 PM
:salam:

Stop.

Next time, use a 6919 and record their lectures. They are not even expensive anymore.
I personally stay far away from such 'learning institutes' if there is even a small doubt regarding their teachings. I'm more worried about the sisters' though, we really need to put in more efforts to make it easier for them to learn Islam.

The more I read about them (institutes) the more I stick with Tabligh. I think I have a plan to do something about ^ Also, there are many scholars (traditional) who are using the internet and taking Islamic courses. Stick with them to be safe.

Servant.of.Allah
15-02-2012, 04:01 PM
Tabligh is far better, as they wont fight for where to tie hands like what Salafis/Ahle hadith do.

Nowdays learning ilm as become a fashion/trend for few muslims, May Allah protect us.
One Shaykh said abt nthe importance of seeking knowledge. To seek knowledge is to seek knowledge - importantly its not to teach others as the Salafis/modern muslims think.

Islam is oral tradition not a written tradition. May Allah guide the free thinkers of Islam in correct path

Aram
15-02-2012, 04:07 PM
I think their usage of the word Hanafi is in the literal meaning (as in monotheist) and not the common ('urfi) meaning, as in an adherent of the Hanafi mathhab. They seem to employ this lexical strategy to confuse the Hanafi laity. I presume not all Salafis recognise this and therefore criticise the Al Kauthar crew because of this. Their are also various strands within the Salafis and the criticism might be based on this. I know some Salafis who are particularly vocal in their critcism of the Al Kauthar and Al Maghrib lot.

not sure where your based, but in the UK (london specifically) there is a divide amongst the salafis where some people support things like al kauthar...and the salafis who are against them...they mostly dont support them because of yasir qadhi and their signing the unity pledge and also because of his pro-america views...they also have fiqhi differences with them such as yasir qadhis/ muhammad al shareefs stance on the beard etc

but from what i notice the salafis who are anti yasir qadhi are a little more educated in terms of what a madhab is wallahu alam...they mostly refer to themselves as hanbalis and don't really use the salafi label anymore...although they don't follow the traditional opinions in the hanbali madhab and follow most of the same shaykhs shaykh albani and co

and then we have the salafis who are very anti-madhab...they are also against these institutes because they seem to have 'hanafi' scholars and consider them misguided and following a madhab to be bidah

basically there is a lot of divide amongst salafis in the UK

To me it seemed like yasir qadhi etc changed when al-kauthar popped up...and they keep changing...and it seems like its all about attracting a wider audience...wallahu alam but the yasir qadhi back when al-kauthar was not around was veryy different and had he been the same al-kauthar would not be half as popular as it is today especially in the US...makes you ask yourself could this all just be business tactics

Abu_Uzair
15-02-2012, 04:15 PM
this issue was discussed ago,i attended 1 their event,when we oresented hanafi point of view,they replied its only zaif hadis,beware of them,this is totally business,they take 1500 rs for 2 days caurse.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?78593-beware-of-mercy-mission-and-alkauthar.org&

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?64420-Who-is-Sheikh-Tariq-Appleby-Please-Reply-Soon./page2

amr123
15-02-2012, 04:21 PM
makes you ask yourself could this all just be business tactics

There a factor that is more endear to man than wealth. Its called Jah ie winning the hearts of others. It is coveted by everyone, sometimes people have more longing for Jah than for wealth. I just read an extract on Jah by Imam Ghazzali.

"The answer to the question posed earlier is that, in truth and reality, love of Jah produces an intoxication which can hardly be eradicated. There are two reasons for this. One of these is manifest and can be conceived by everyone. But the other one being related to a peculiar trait of the human-self, is so subtle and latent that i would be difficult even for the most intelligent to grasp it fully. " -Imam Ghazzali

P.s. I m not accusing anyone in particular, just talking in General.

pluto
15-02-2012, 04:27 PM
Tabligh is far better, as they wont fight for where to tie hands like what Salafis/Ahle hadith do.

Nowdays learning ilm as become a fashion/trend for few muslims, May Allah protect us.
One Shaykh said abt nthe importance of seeking knowledge. To seek knowledge is to seek knowledge - importantly its not to teach others as the Salafis/modern muslims think.

Islam is oral tradition not a written tradition. May Allah guide the free thinkers of Islam in correct path

Its a blessing, yes.

amr123
15-02-2012, 04:28 PM
:salam:

Stop.

Next time, use a 6919 and record their lectures.

:ws:

You mean use http://www.aonesafetyequipment.com/pic/digi/31030_sml1.gif ear plugs

pluto
15-02-2012, 04:34 PM
:ws:

You mean use ear plugs
:salam: In one way, yes.

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 05:48 PM
Brother Afriki Haqq,

Who is Mirza Yawar Baig and what role does he play into all of this?

afriki_haqq
15-02-2012, 07:05 PM
Brother Afriki Haqq,

Who is Mirza Yawar Baig and what role does he play into all of this?



Regarding Mirza Yawar Baig, I don't know much but I do know he is heavily involved with AK. He is from Hyderabad in India (Google for his "Yawar Associates"). At the last AK retreat in South Africa Mirza Yawar spent the entire weekend with the group, etc. He is more of a motivational speaker and I haven't seen him present an Aqeedah or Fiqh course. In an email Mirza Yawar quite vehemently denied being a Salafi and went to the extent of saying prove for this is his association with some of the senior South African (Hanafi/Deobandi) 'Ulama. But his association with Salafis is also a known fact.

I don't think his a scholar like Bilal Ismail. If he sticks to social topics/motivational etc then that should be fine.

PS: Channel Islam playns a short clip of his daily in the mornings. Take a listen to that and it might give some background into Mirza Yawar.

On this same topic I would like to mention that one of the other Shaykhs is Zimbabwean born Madinah graduate - Shaykh Sajid Omar. Radio Islam has given him considerable airtime in that he has been given a whole slot to do a study of Imaam Nawawis Riyadh us-Saaliheen. I don't know if this program is still on-going but when I contacted the Radio Islam 'alims I had no response from them.

I await others to correct and enlighten me on the above two.

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 07:14 PM
I think association with Deobandi Ulama is oft-cited by these individuals to gain legitimacy among Deobandis. I think that's a wake-up call for our Ulama to exercise greater care. The laity needs to also not fall for cheap tactics such as that.

Check this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/india-unity/message/5478

Baig seems to be giving credence to a view of interchanging between mathhabs. Such sentiments were also echoed in a report that he wrote in 2006 at the behest of the Jamiat-e-Ulama of South Africa. His views are clearly not in tranquility with those of the Ulama of Deoband.

afriki_haqq
15-02-2012, 08:42 PM
Just came across this book:

http://yawarbaig.org/Publications/Ulamastrategyforchange.pdf

Skimmed through a few pages. Perhaps the others can read and comment. From what I see a lot of disregard is shown to the derives of the 'Ulama and in particular Darul 'Uloom Deoband.

Will add more comments later as well as to your above post Mawlana :insh:

Shamli 1857
15-02-2012, 09:45 PM
Just came across this book:

http://yawarbaig.org/Publications/Ulamastrategyforchange.pdf

Skimmed through a few pages. Perhaps the others can read and comment. From what I see a lot of disregard is shown to the derives of the 'Ulama and in particular Darul 'Uloom Deoband.

Will add more comments later as well as to your above post Mawlana :insh:

If Baig really wanted to make a change, then why did he firstly write in English and secondly why publish it online - provide nasihah privately. I feel there's an agenda. What he seems to be calling for is very utopian and idealistic. All the best to him in that regard. There is a certain Indian class that tends to place all social ills on the shoulders of the ulama and madaris. Baig is no different in that respect.

It's clear Al Kauthar knows its target market well. The dawa has been shaped to lead astray naive Hanafis.

afriki_haqq
16-02-2012, 09:14 AM
I think association with Deobandi Ulama is oft-cited by these individuals to gain legitimacy among Deobandis. I think that's a wake-up call for our Ulama to exercise greater care. The laity needs to also not fall for cheap tactics such as that.

:thumbsup:



Check this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/india-unity/message/5478

Baig seems to be giving credence to a view of interchanging between mathhabs. Such sentiments were also echoed in a report that he wrote in 2006 at the behest of the Jamiat-e-Ulama of South Africa. His views are clearly not in tranquility with those of the Ulama of Deoband.

The article on the link shows a side of Mirza Yawar that I was unaware of. It seems, along with the other book, that he is some sort of authority in Fiqh. Perhaps anyone could highlight his studies/learning to know exactly what he is qualified as.

Mawlana, can you link in the article of 2006, please.

In his book (http://yawarbaig.org/Publications/Ulamastrategyforchange.pdf)"Ulama Strategy for Change", he writes:


They became and created super specialists in the religious texts with no attempt to look at their application to fast changing external realities of society. And they also started preparing ‘priests’; students whose role was seen as being confined to Imaamat in masaajid and teaching in Madaaris. Interestingly, they even called the Ja’amia Islamia, a ‘Seminary’ and its Nazim or Muhtamim, ‘The Rector’. It is tragic to note that no attempt was made at least to be distinct from Christian Religious institutions in nomenclature.

That is enough for me to be put off the Mirza.

More Info about Mirza Yawar from the same book:


MIRZA YAWAR BAIG
International Speaker, Trainer, Corporate Consultant, specializing in Leadership Development helping technical specialists transition into Management and Leadership roles. Founder, YAWAR BAIG & ASSOCIATES© Yawar teaches leadership in the United States, India, South Africa, Sri Lanka and Malaysia. Yawar received his initial Islamic education in Jamia Ilahiyaat Nooria in Hyderabad and later at the feet of Ulama and Shuyookh in Saudi Arabia, India and America.
Yawar speaks on Islam internationally especially about the importance of Muslims becoming Standard Bearers of Islam in order to showcase Islam for the World. Yawar has taught, engineers, teachers, businessmen, police officers and administrators on three continents and speaks five languages. Yawar specializes in helping family businesses transition from being ‘Person-led to becoming Processdriven’.
He is a life coach and mentor for prominent family businesses in India, South
Africa & Sri Lanka.

CONSULTANT PANEL MEMBERSHIPS ISLAMIC LEADERSHIP
Advisor, Jamiat ul Ulama, South Africa
Advisor, Association of Muslim Schools, South Africa
Advisor, Jamiat ul Ulama, Sri Lanka
Advisor, Jamia Syed Ahmed Shaheed, India
Advisor, Al Mahad Al Islami, Hyderabad, India

PUBLICATIONS / SEMINARS
· Attitude to Ilm of Deen
· Burden of the Standard Bearer
· Islam & World Peace
· Islamic or Scientific Education?
· Islam – A Rational Perspective
· Challenges for the Ulama

BOOKS
· The Business of Family Business
· An Entrepreneur’s Diary
· The Messenger & The Message
· A Journey of Faith
· Hiring Winners
· Present Your Way to the Top

Saviour of the 'Ulama?:rolleyes:

tawlib
16-02-2012, 11:32 AM
Assalamualaikum warahmatullah wa barakatuh

I have been to a few courses in Johannesburg.
Working in the corporate world means that I don’t really get a chance to devote my time to Studying Islam. So these weekend courses are perfect for me. The “Jamiat al ulema” has been slow to offer such courses but alhamdulilah launched their first weekend course this past weekend titled “Understanding the west and Muslim responsibilities”.

I really wanted to attend but unfortunately I couldn’t make it. They also covered the topic of Jihad which many scholars are afraid to cover, so it was quite refreshing to see them being pro active in tackling this subject. I hope they covered it in a forthright manner whichout watering things down to appease anybody. I doubt you will get a talk on Jihad from Al kauthar.
Al kauthar does have a course on the seerah of the prophet (saw) during the Madina period in Johannesburg on the25th and 26th of Feb. Its gonna be interesting to see how they try and bypass the battle of the battle of Tabuk and Surah Taubah.

Anyway coming to the topic of discussion. I have been to a number of these Al kauthar courses. The historical ones are excellent in their presentation, detail, referencing and the application of lessons to our lives.

The fiqh courses are fascinating for me as a beginner student. Even though I am a hanafi and I follow the hanafi madhab, I don’t want to limit my knowledge to my madhab only. I enjoy learning about all the madhabs and the views of other scholars like Sufyaan al thawri, ibn Hazam from the Dhahiri Madhab and Ibn Taymiyah.
I might not agree with some of these scholars but I still enjoy learning about their view.

The instructor usually presents the various views and the reasons why the scholars differed. They tend to be very open to the following of madhabs and I have yet to hear any of the instructors urging students to leave their madhab.


Wasalaam

afriki_haqq
16-02-2012, 11:58 AM
Assalamualaikum warahmatullah wa barakatuh

:ws: and welcome to the forum brother.


I have been to a few courses in Johannesburg.

I am also from Johannesburg, good to have someone from the same city on SF :mash:


Working in the corporate world means that I don’t really get a chance to devote my time to Studying Islam. So these weekend courses are perfect for me. The “Jamiat al ulema” has been slow to offer such courses but alhamdulilah launched their first weekend course this past weekend titled “Understanding the west and Muslim responsibilities”.

There are other institutes that offer similar courses, one such that comes to mind is Ar-Rihla (www.rihla.co.za), you should check it out.


I really wanted to attend but unfortunately I couldn’t make it. They also covered the topic of Jihad which many scholars are afraid to cover, so it was quite refreshing to see them being pro active in tackling this subject. I hope they covered it in a forthright manner whichout watering things down to appease anybody. I doubt you will get a talk on Jihad from Al kauthar.
Al kauthar does have a course on the seerah of the prophet (saw) during the Madina period in Johannesburg on the25th and 26th of Feb. Its gonna be interesting to see how they try and bypass the battle of the battle of Tabuk and Surah Taubah.

Ismail Adam Patel of the UK done the course along with Mawlana Ebrahim Bham.


Anyway coming to the topic of discussion. I have been to a number of these Al kauthar courses. The historical ones are excellent in their presentation, detail, referencing and the application of lessons to our lives.

:alhamd: and :mash: it is the history of our pious salaf that is an inspiration to us, in that regard you should see this blog (http://ulamadeoband.wordpress.com/) which is a humble effort to document the undocumented history of our pious predecessors.



The fiqh courses are fascinating for me as a beginner student. Even though I am a hanafi and I follow the hanafi madhab, I don’t want to limit my knowledge to my madhab only. I enjoy learning about all the madhabs and the views of other scholars like Sufyaan al thawri, ibn Hazam from the Dhahiri Madhab and Ibn Taymiyah.
I might not agree with some of these scholars but I still enjoy learning about their view.

As a beginner student shouldn't you concentrate on your own madhab and solidifying your knowledge of the fiqh of your madhab? I dont think any traditional scholar would teach in this way, this is rather a salient feature of the Salafis, and the beginning of the start to convert a person to la-madhabism.


The instructor usually presents the various views and the reasons why the scholars differed. They tend to be very open to the following of madhabs and I have yet to hear any of the instructors urging students to leave their madhab.

That is the point, they never tell you to leave your madhab but sow seeds of doubts in your mind about following a madhab. I personally know people who after attending Al-Kauthar have changed madhabs or have completely left following a madhab.

This is only on the fiqh courses. We did not even touch on the aqeedah.

I suggest you start by reading the book "The Legal Status of Following a Madhab" (http://www.4shared.com/office/tjjrZEJK/THE_LEGAL_STATUS_OF_FOLLOWING_.html) by Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi 'Uthmani (HA)


To add, I just want to say that this is humble advice from my side and I ask for sincere maaf if I have come across rudely or harshly and this is not my intention. I have seen many that I know getting sucked into Salafism, la-madhabism, etc and it is a dark and murky world out there. The Ummah was united for centuries on 4 madhabs and 2 schools of aqeeda until the Salafis came on the field. Feel free to contact me, maybe we can meet up sometime :insh:

Shamli 1857
16-02-2012, 12:40 PM
It seems, along with the other book, that he is some sort of authority in Fiqh. Perhaps anyone could highlight his studies/learning to know exactly what he is qualified as.


His comments on fiqh etc lack academic rigour.

tawlib
16-02-2012, 01:07 PM
Wasalaam

Jazakallah khair for the welcome and for your advice. No offence taken brother.

I will keep your warnings and advice top of mind inshallah.

BTW- The history courses that I referred to were regarding the 4 caliphs.

I know my madhab really well and if i dont know the ruling on an issue then i ask. Why should i limit my knowledge?

Can you share with me an issue of Aqeedah that you heard the instructors mention at any of the courses, which goes against the aqeedah of the Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah?

Wasalaam

afriki_haqq
17-02-2012, 11:20 AM
Wasalaam

Jazakallah khair for the welcome and for your advice. No offence taken brother.

I will keep your warnings and advice top of mind inshallah.

BTW- The history courses that I referred to were regarding the 4 caliphs.

I know my madhab really well and if i dont know the ruling on an issue then i ask. Why should i limit my knowledge?

Can you share with me an issue of Aqeedah that you heard the instructors mention at any of the courses, which goes against the aqeedah of the Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah?

Wasalaam

If you look into the life of the great scholars of the past then you would be amazed to find out that as great as their knowledge was they remained muqallids of one madhab.

Regarding the Aqeedah, then we should look at the lecturers of AK and where and with whom they have studied and a picture of their Aqeedah will become abit clear. Also, on the AK forum I have come across a thread where one of the lecturers has given a list of recommended readings on Aqeedah and many of the texts mentioned are problematic. The thread is here (http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=45977&postcount=2).

Also, I direct you to one of my initial posts on this topic where I quoted the Forum Ameer, Mufti Husain (HA).

There is more information on SF about AK etc, use the search to find these.

I found this one by one of the learned member, Colonel_Hardstone (www.central-mosque.com)


AAWW,

I have been informed by a 2 or 3 brothers now that an al-kauthar course on the 4 Madhabs called "chronicles of the Shariah" was very good. The speaker was Imtiaz Damiel and the event has been held in Manchester and in London. Its now going to happen in India.

Does anybody have a copy of the presentation used on the day, or maybe a recording of the event.

wslm


:ws:

1) Shaykh Imtiaz Damiel is doing courses on "Salafi Aqeedah"

2) "Chronicles of Shariah"/Evolution of Fiqh has a lot of material from Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips

So make up your mind about this...


On a side: I would mention that Ar-Rihla are also doing courses. Anyone interested can check their website www.rihla.co.za

afriki_haqq
17-02-2012, 11:24 AM
....

:salam: brother, can you look at these two threads as well :insh:

Bayaans, Lectures, Programs - South Africa (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84242-Bayaans-Lectures-Programs-South-Africa)

An appeal to South Africans + UPDATES (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?81806-An-appeal-to-South-Africans-UPDATES/page3)

:jazak:

tawlib
17-02-2012, 12:57 PM
Jazakallah khair for the link to future lectures and talks in SA


If you look into the life of the great scholars of the past then you would be amazed to find out that as great as their knowledge was they remained muqallids of one madhab.

Brother, I’m not debating with you the issue of muqallid and ghair muqalid as I follow the Hanafi Madhab.


I found this one by one of the learned member, Colonel_Hardstone (www.central-mosque.com)

The link to Colonel_Hardstone doest take me to anything specific to Al kauthar???


This is only on the fiqh courses. We did not even touch on the aqeedah.


Can you share with me an issue of Aqeedah that you heard the instructors mention at any of the courses, which goes against the aqeedah of the Ahlus sunnah wal jamaah?

Please answer the question my dear brother.

The thing is, either you heard them speak against madhabs or you didn’t and I’m starting to get the feeling that you haven’t attended a course and you are basing your views on hearsay.

I actually attended the Chronicles of the shariah course by Imtiaz Damiel and not once was he disrespectful to Imaam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah alayh), Imaam Abu Yusuf (rahmatullah alayh) or Imaam Muhammad (rahmatullah alayh), and not once did he urge the students to leave their madhab, not even a subtle hint.

Furthermore, There were Hanafis , Shafies, Hanbalis and Maalikis at the course and I didn’t hear a single statement against any of the Madhabs or against any of the great Imaams.

I think you should come and attend the next course with me inshallah. So that if the instructor steps out of line in terms of Aqeedah then you will be able to pick it up. And you will be able to view the instructor’s attitude towards madhabs firsthand.

Hope that we can sit together at the course inshallah so that we base our discussion on firsthand experience and not on hearsay.

Wa alaikum salaam

Shamli 1857
17-02-2012, 03:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Oz73ECi7Q

An interesting short video of Sheikh Bilal Ismail, Kauthar instructor from Durban. The talk was delivered at one of the UK's leading Salafi masjids in Birmingham. Towards the end of the clip Sheikh Bilal laments at there not being a single Ahl-e-Hadeeth or Salafi masjid in Durban, and there also not being a Salafi community unlike that in Birmingham's Green Lane.

afriki_haqq
20-02-2012, 06:57 AM
The link to Colonel_Hardstone doest take me to anything specific to Al kauthar???

Apologies for that, the link takes you to the Colonels website.



Please answer the question my dear brother.

The thing is, either you heard them speak against madhabs or you didn’t and I’m starting to get the feeling that you haven’t attended a course and you are basing your views on hearsay.

I actually attended the Chronicles of the shariah course by Imtiaz Damiel and not once was he disrespectful to Imaam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah alayh), Imaam Abu Yusuf (rahmatullah alayh) or Imaam Muhammad (rahmatullah alayh), and not once did he urge the students to leave their madhab, not even a subtle hint.

Furthermore, There were Hanafis , Shafies, Hanbalis and Maalikis at the course and I didn’t hear a single statement against any of the Madhabs or against any of the great Imaams.

I think you should come and attend the next course with me inshallah. So that if the instructor steps out of line in terms of Aqeedah then you will be able to pick it up. And you will be able to view the instructor’s attitude towards madhabs firsthand.

Hope that we can sit together at the course inshallah so that we base our discussion on firsthand experience and not on hearsay.

Wa alaikum salaam

Read this post and this will :insh: be my final post on this topic:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?25440-Mark-of-a-Jurist

particularly note the posts by Mufti Husain (HA).

We hope that you find your stay on the forum beneficial and hoping you participate in other discussions as well. Ask for maaf if any offence has been caused.

afriki_haqq
20-02-2012, 07:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5Oz73ECi7Q

An interesting short video of Sheikh Bilal Ismail, Kauthar instructor from Durban. The talk was delivered at one of the UK's leading Salafi masjids in Birmingham. Towards the end of the clip Sheikh Bilal laments at there not being a single Ahl-e-Hadeeth or Salafi masjid in Durban, and there also not being a Salafi community unlike that in Birmingham's Green Lane.

:jazak: Mawlana, confirms and makes many things clear

Shamli 1857
20-02-2012, 09:32 AM
I've actually found some further information which I'll post soon, insha Allah. There's also some bits on Aqidah. I just need to go through it and put it together.

At Tayyib
20-02-2012, 01:17 PM
maulana shamli I attended some of their courses in the UK by shaykh tawfique chawdhury the esteemed student of shaykh mukhtar ash shinqiti db from Madinah Munawara. I found it very good to say the least.

Mashallah, i'm interested in Al Kauthar courses.

How were the courses you took with Shaykh Tawfique Chawdhury HA? I mean the topics, batch size.

your feedback would be appreciated

:jazak:

faisal ahmad
20-02-2012, 03:05 PM
Mashallah, i'm interested in Al Kauthar courses.

How were the courses you took with Shaykh Tawfique Chawdhury HA? I mean the topics, batch size.

your feedback would be appreciated

:jazak:

Tawfique Choudury, the founder of both Al-Kauthar and Mercy Missions, is unashamedly anti-taqleed and is salafi through and through. Like the rest of Al-Kauthar it's in everyones best interests to steer clear of him and the organisation as a whole. As a layman it's easy to be in awe and fall prey to hearing someone talk eloquently, quoting Quranic verses and Hadith and often very difficult if not impossible to decipher whether what they are saying is what the vast majority of the ummah believe or their own salafi perspective.

Incidentally, this is Tawfique Choudhury's taqleed talk description:

http://www.redbrickmedia.co.uk/cds/taqleed-demystified

"The word taqleed is a derivative of Qalaadah, and the linguistic meaning of qalaadah is to wear a collar that a dog wears around its neck. The meaning of taqleed in terminology is to act upon the opinion of an Imaam from the Ummah without knowing the evidence. So the muqallid is the one who does taqleed. The issue of Taqleed is widely misunderstood in our times. *In this lecture the speaker goes through the various rulings and opinions related to the issue of taqleed."

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 11:23 AM
Is Al Kauthar Salafi or not? Mohammed Wadee is the religious attaché at the Saudi Embassy in South Africa – in other words the head of the Salafi da’wa in South Africa. This is his Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/alwadi1?sk=info

If you look under 9 February this is what Wadee posted:


Certain individuals in the religious fraternity are questioning why Al-Khauther has managed to gain large support! The answer is really simple: instructors willingly convey the quraan & sunnah without any distortion or self interpretation. Further, the instructors do not censor information believing that the 'Awaam' are not capable comprehending such teachings. Simply put they try the best to be truthfully and fulfill the trust that Allah placed in them to the best of their ability.


Is there anymore doubt what Al Kauthar stands for?

The subsequent discussion is also very interesting. There are some absolute gems in the subsequent comments. I’ll reproduce a few.


Shaakera Banoo: What I liked best about the course that I attended was that the instructor only referenced the Quran and Hadith - not what this Sheikh said, and what the Mureed of this other Sheikh said... and what the cousin of the uncle of the Mureed of the Sheikh said...


Look at the disdain for Tasawwuf. In response to this, Wadee then writes:


And how the murid purchased some other hazrats shoe for a large amount of money!


Another interesting gem from another contributor:


i come from a strong deobandi and tableegh jamaat background. after attending my first al kauthar course, i was addicted, and yes my family does not approve of it. if only they would attend and see for themselves what al kauthar is all about. it is amazing. with Al Kauthar iv finally learnt to love my deen and not feel suffocated. i think the Dawah approach which Al Kauthar has is simply unique! when i attend normal bayaans, im knocked out in 15 mins from start, but amazingly, alhamdulillah, Allah has granted be the ability to stay awake for the full day of the course. next week end is the next Al Kauthar course in south africa - durban and joburg, if anyone has not registered as yet, plz register yourself online on www.alkauthar.org hoping to see you there next week end, i always tell my family, if u getting married on the day of an al kautharcourse, dont expect me to attend your wedding.


The sister feels suffocated and so adopts Saudi Salafism – brilliant. Has she even pondered over the difficulties women face in that country?

A brother pointed out how only quoting Quran and Hadith without commentary of the Ulama could mislead the audience. He continues:


That is the problem with Salafi ultra-literalism. Everyone THINKS he/she understands the text, whereas the true meaning is often quite different from what is apparent. And for every ayah/hadith there are often a dozen or more saying something different on the same topic! Which brings us to the crux of the problem: Only a Mujtahid can truly see the whole picture. Not a novice (like me) who only knows Bukhari and Muslim. May Allah grant us understanding, a'meen.


In response to this Wadee comes out with a cracker:


Ya salaam. You mean the quraan & Hadith are only understood by a select few! Sounds more like priesthood!


We then see some comments from famous South African Salafis – Ahmed Asmal (graduate of Imam Saud University in Riyadh) and his sister Fatima Asmal. Both these individuals used to run Al Kauthar in South Africa but were pushed out. Both are staunch Salafis and often host massive conferences in the country.

Ahmed Asmal writes:


Whilst I "like" most of your comments on fb brother Mohammed, I wish there was a "dislike" button for this one. About 6 years ago, a massive effort was put in by my sister Fatima Asmal to launch AK in SA - after being unsuccessful in convincing Al Maghrib to launch here. Then in true South African fashion it was hijacked from under our noses. I say "our" because I take it very personally - I myself worked hard together with my sis and others. So whilst I acknowledge can AK is being instrumental in changing mindsets, u won't be seeing me at any AK courses.
Brothers Mohammed and Yaseen - together with my sis we've been around in the Salafi circles for quite a few years now - sorry to burst your bubbles - but the back stabbing, chauvinism, hypocrisy, dirty politics is there, trust me. Very UN Quran & sunnah!


Apart from the public and tiff with Al Kauthar, as a Hanafi Deobandi, are we left with any more doubt that these people are Salafis?

Fatima Asmal’s comments are also very interesting indeed:


Firstly, whilst I once used to call myself a 'Salafi,' I don't anymore, for a good few years now. I met various individuals who do not term themselves such who are also passionate about upholding the Qur'aan and Sunnah, like Shaykh Ashraf the local Egyptian Arabic teacher, and Maulana Khalid of ILM-SA who studied at Nadwatul-Uloom. And various overseas personalities. I find them more tolerant and respectful and humble than what I experienced of certain Salafis. (I won't generalise). Also, with AlKauthar and my involvement in bringing them here; I sensed a definite sexist attitude, as well as one of elitism, and a lack of ethics particularly on the part of the leadership. So really; labels and ideologies and groups don't do it for me anymore.

afriki_haqq
26-02-2012, 01:05 PM
Is Al Kauthar Salafi or not? Mohammed Wadee is the religious attaché at the Saudi Embassy in South Africa – in other words the head of the Salafi da’wa in South Africa. This is his Facebook page. http://www.facebook.com/alwadi1?sk=info


He is a well-known 'Ulama-hater and -basher. His comments against the 'Ulama on-air (via Channel Islam), in private and on his Facebook page are well known. He studied for a short while at Darul 'Uloom Zakariyya before going to Madinah University. He is also intrumental in bringing several Imaams of the Haram to South Africa. The local 'Ulama are aware of him and his activities and this was confirmed to me via a very senior late 'alim. In the posts he referes to a recent 'Ulama retreat organised by the Jamiatul Ulama offices in Lenasia where the 'Ulama where briefed on the dangers of Salafism and Shi'ism.

I will post some further details later :insh:

Mawlana Shamli :jazak: for bringing this up, I had forgotten about it but did come across it some time ago.

At Tayyib
26-02-2012, 01:08 PM
Tawfique Choudury, the founder of both Al-Kauthar and Mercy Missions, is unashamedly anti-taqleed and is salafi through and through. Like the rest of Al-Kauthar it's in everyones best interests to steer clear of him and the organisation as a whole. As a layman it's easy to be in awe and fall prey to hearing someone talk eloquently, quoting Quranic verses and Hadith and often very difficult if not impossible to decipher whether what they are saying is what the vast majority of the ummah believe or their own salafi perspective.

Incidentally, this is Tawfique Choudhury's taqleed talk description:

http://www.redbrickmedia.co.uk/cds/taqleed-demystified

"The word taqleed is a derivative of Qalaadah, and the linguistic meaning of qalaadah is to wear a collar that a dog wears around its neck. The meaning of taqleed in terminology is to act upon the opinion of an Imaam from the Ummah without knowing the evidence. So the muqallid is the one who does taqleed. The issue of Taqleed is widely misunderstood in our times. *In this lecture the speaker goes through the various rulings and opinions related to the issue of taqleed."

This post left my eyes wide open. Such an ignorant statement. :jazak: i'm having nothing but disgust for them.

afriki_haqq
26-02-2012, 01:26 PM
7023

7022

7024

I can go and dig up alot of info on this gentleman. This is solely for the purpose to show what kind of people support and defend Al-Kauthar Institute. There is one other gentleman by the name of Ismail Kamdar who masquerades under the title of Mawlana and he is also amongst the foremost Salafis of Durban and along with Bilal Ismail, Al-Kauthar and IOU conducts lectures for these three institutes.

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 01:45 PM
Jazakallah for this. It's important all of this information is brought into the public sphere and amalgamated here on Sunni Forum. I've got some other points as well, which I'll subsequently share. For the record this thread isn't about answering Al Kauthar but simply highlighting that they are Salafis. We did a similar thing a few years ago on Sunni Forum in the Radical Middle Way thread. The benefits were widespread Alhamdulillah. I have every intention to something similar here once more.

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 01:59 PM
http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=7072
Here is a post from Sajid Umar – In there he explains how he performs 8 rakah of Tarawih:


I was blessed thereafter in being offered the Maghrib Salaah, and after iftaar lead the congregation in 8 Raka'aat (Rakaats) of taraweeh, after which I performed a brief tafseer surrounded the 20th juz, that we completed.


Is this the action of a Hanafi?

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 02:14 PM
Here's another Al Kauthar thread where they discuss Deobandis and Hanafis: http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=7888&page=2

The general feeling is that the Hanafis and Deobandis are part of the gone astray seventy odd sects. I found this particular comment very insightful. Note the underlined bits. This is straight from the horse's mouth. This makes clear that Al Kauthar is a Salafi organisation and no matter how hard they try to show themselves otherwise we know what the truth actually is.


i would like to say if it was not for scholers like Sheikh Nasir Udeen Albani, Sheikh Bin Baaz, Sheikh Utheimeen, Sheikh Badee Udeen Shah, Sheikh Zubair Ali, ect.... i would not have found the true understanding of the salaf.

it was these scholers especially Sheikh nasir udeen Albani who studied hadith and returned to the understanding of the salaf. I mention sheikh Albani because of the huge amount of work he has done on hadith and being more recognised amongst the people.

If it was not for them after Allah i would still be holding wrong views, thinking that its the way of the companions.

Nearlly all our Alkauthar teachers got their knowledge from the above scholers or other scholers that i have not mentioned.

I do not know how to express or explain to you what these ahlul-hadith scholers especially Sheikh Nasir Udeen Albani have done to remove the false understanding that is prevelant in our society. Sheikh Nasir udeen Albani opened my eyes to alot of things.

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 02:19 PM
Here's another link from the Al Kauthar forum. http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=40596&postcount=6

The author, Abu Ruqayyah, seems to be an active Al Kauthar student. This, sadly, is the mindset of these individuals. This is nothing but straight forward Salafism.


Asalamu Alaykum Wa Rahmatulahi Wa Barakatahu,

Like one of the brothers mentioned through my experience with the Deobandis I realised that alot of the brothers are sincere and active in their Dawah. Alot of the youngsters that I give Dawah to in University and pray with are `Deobandi` but in reality other than the issue of Taqleed then all the issues of Aqeedah that I have discussed or delivered talks on they have agreed with.

But the brother asked what is wrong with the Aqeedah of the Deobandis, then to this the answer is that firstly like the Ulema mention when we look at the Aqeedah of a group, jamaat etc then we look at the Books of Aqeedah of that particular Jamaat, in this case it is the Deobandis. We do not look at any Deobandi we know because they may differ to the Books of the Deoband or the Founders of the Deobandi group.

With regards to this then there are many well known Scholars from the Deoband such as Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi (the author of Behsti Zhewar), Maulana Imdadullah Muhajir Makki (Teacher of Ashraf Ali Thanvi), Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi (author of Fatawa Rashidiayah also co-founder of Dar al Uloom Deoband), Maulana Qasim Nanotvi, Maulana Zakariyya (Founder of Tablighi Jamaat) and there are many others.

The Main Books of the Deoband are Fazail e Amal, Mashaikh e Chisht written by Maulana Zakariya, Behsti Zhewar, Malfozat Hakim al Ummat written by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi, Fatawa Rashidiya, Tazkirat ur Rasheed, Arwah e Sahabah written by Maulana Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi but on the issue of the Aqeedah then probably one of the Greatest Books of the Deobandis is Al Muhanad al Mufanad.

The reason I mentioned these Scholars and these Books is so that the brother who poised the question can fully contemplate the answer.

If you read the statements of these Scholars in some of these Books then they mention many statements which are contradictory to the correct Aqeedah such as that they affirm Allah is present everywhere, they support the statement of Hallaj, "Aanal Haqq" "I am the Haqq".

Ashraf Ali Thanvi says:

“You are amazed at people who claim Prophet-hood… People have claimed Lordship. However, nobody must think that Hussain bin Mansoor (al-Hallaj) in his saying, ‘Aanal-Haqq’ [I am the Haqq (Truth meaning Allah)] claimed Lordship (i.e. claimed to be God). Because upon him was a condition, otherwise he also believed in Abdiyaah (the state of being a worshiper) and therefore he offered Salaah. Someone asked him (al-Hallaj): “Since you are Allah, to whom do you prostrate?” He (al-Hallaj) answered: “I have two states, one outward and the other inward. My outward self prostrates to my inward self.”( Malfoozat Hakim al-Ummat, Vol.1, p.251)

They claim that if Allah willed He could tell a lie,

“Allah can tell a lie.” (Fatawa Rasheediyah, Vol 1 page. 19)

That the wash water of Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi's feet brings redemption in the Aakhirah, Rasheed Ahmad Gangohi also writes:

“By Allah, the Great, drinking the wash- water of Maulana Thanvi’s feet brings about redemption in the next life.” (Tazkirat-ur-Rasheed, Vol 2, page. 17)

That they are HANAFI in FIQH but ASHARI and MATURIDI in Aqeedah (Al Muhanah Al Mufanad). They also mention that the Faqeer does not die and can benefit you from his grave. Maulana Zakariyah writes Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki mentioned:

“...The Fakir does not die. He is simply transformed from one abode to another. The same benefit which was received from the Fakir’s physical life will be acquired from his grave.” (Mashaikh-e-Chist (Eng. Trans.) p.211)

Therefore you have seen hundreds of Scholars from all over the world that have said that the Deobandis are a sect from the 72 sects that are astray. Such Ulema include:

Shaykh Allama Badiuddin Shah Rashadi Rahimullah (teacher of Shaykh Muqbil)
Shaykh Allama Ehsan Elahi Zaeer Shaheed Inshallah
Shaykh Allama Saif ur Rahman Mubarakpuree Rahimullah
Shaykh Allama Muhammad Rais Nadwi Rahimullah (teacher of Shaykh Wasiullah Abbas)
Shaykh Allama Abdullah Bahawalpuri Rahimullah
Shaykh Allama Saleh al Fawzaan
Shaykh Allama Hammad al Ansaree Rahimullah
Shaykh Allama Ahmad Yahya an Najmy Rahimullah
Shaykh Hamood bin Abdillah al Tuwajiree
Muhadith Zubayr Ali Zaee
Shaykh Talib ur Rahman
Shaykh Tausif ur Rahman
Shaykh Abdullah Nassar Rahmani
Shaykh Allama Abdul Mannan Noorpuree
Shaykh Irshad ul Haq al Athari
Shaykh Meraj Rabbani
Shaykh Fadl Elahi Zaeer

There are hundreds of Scholars who have clearly stated that whoever hold the Aqeedah of Deoband then they are not from Ahle Sunnah.

Also in recent times Shaykh Saleh al Fawzaan has wrote the introduction to Shaykh Talib ur Rahmans Book Al Deobandiyah.

As regards the statement of Shaykh Bin Baaz Rahimullah then as we have detailed replies to the Aqeedah of the Deoband from Scholars who have studied the Aqeedah of the Deoband in more detail then this statement of Shaykh Bin Baaz Rahimullah is outweighed by the overwhelming evidence.

If you look at many Fatawa of Shaykh Bin Baaz then he clearly speaks about the Sufi Tariqahs, Qasidah Burdah, Wahdat ul Wujood and other beliefs of the Deoband.

As for the layperson then we do not apply this ruling to him as most Tablighis, Deobandis are ignorant of the Aqeedah of their elders although they propogate their Books and Works. So we should discuss with these people and advise them with wisdom.

But as for the Deoband itself then I hope I have made clear the stance of the Scholars upon the Deoband and the Beliefs of the Deoband.

Inshallah I have all the references for the statements of the Deobandi Scholars that I have mentioned.

If you require anymore clarity then please dont hesitate to ask.

Walaykum Salam Wa Rahmatulahi Wa Barakatahu

Shamli 1857
26-02-2012, 02:26 PM
Here's another post at Al Kauthar wherein which the author explains how taqiyyah should be adopted when dealing with Hanafis/Deobandis in order to draw them close and then corrupt their minds: http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=40806&postcount=16


Salaam

I agree with what you are saying Abu Ruqayyah, but we need to use wisdom in how to deal with this. This information you are presenting is the truth.

Sheikh Badee Udeen Shah was a major scholer in pakistan explaining tawheed and clarifying the truth.

I think what the other brothers and sisters are saying is that if you mention the mistakes of these scholers people will turn away from seeking the truth.

But we need to have this knowledge that you Abu Ruqayyah have of the incorrect aqeeda of the deobandi scholers but informing the layperson, brothers and sisters are scared that they will turn away if we started going on the attacking mode.

But i have to agree with Abu Ruqayyah and i understand we have to use wisdom but we also need to clarify with alot of wisdom without turning them away.

As for using this forum to expose them i am in 2 minds but i am more inclined with what Sr. fatima said we should not bring these issues into this forum. But if someone does ask a question we need to answer and clarify the truth BUT

in a normal circumstance we should keep quite and not mention these issues on this forum.

Ahlul-hadith

As I research this more and more I can see how these people are indulging in a lethal process of deception.

shatibi
26-02-2012, 02:33 PM
:jazak: Mawlana Shamli sahib for this. Really shows their reality, as well as their ignorance of what they're dealing with. That previous post is so full of inaccuracies.

It's strange they try to pass as I-don't-know-what while being so direct about their differences with us. Here (http://forums.alkauthar.org/member.php?u=2838)'s what Sh Ismail Kamdar wrote in his bio at AlKauthar forums:


Full time Da'ee. student of Dr. Bilal Philips, graduate of a deobandi institute turned salafi


And he has a list here (http://muslimmatters.org/2010/02/14/top-ten-people-who-influenced-my-understanding-of-islam-ismail-kamdar/) of the people who influenced him the most. Some quotes:



My first exposure outside the Deobandi school of thought was through Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's book Halal and Haram in Islam. At that time, I hated the book and couldn't believe the fatwas he gave as his understanding was completely opposite to how I had been taught and raised. Now seven years later, I've read the book again and find that much of what he said was correct, I just didn't know it back then.

Al-Qaradawi influenced me by making me ... realize that what I was raised with is not necessarily correct.

And he tops the list with the name of Dr. Bilal Philips, saying he taught him "pure Aqeedah" at a time when he "had no principles and no direction, I was seeking the truth but had no clear method of finding it." In numerous places and posts he talks about being confused as a Deobandi youngster but then finding the right way after meeting Dr Philips. And Dr Bilal Philips' views and statements are quite notorious.

faisal ahmad
26-02-2012, 04:09 PM
Further evidence of Al-Kauthar's deceptive tactics to try and lure as many different people from different sects into their 'degree level courses' i.e. into their sly salafi trap. The introductory paragraph to 'Shaykh' Bilal Ismail:

Bilal Ismail

Sheikh Bilal Ismail was born in Durban, South Africa. He is one of three siblings and comes from a religious deobandi tableeghi family.

http://alkauthar.org/instructor.php?id=9

Yet a direct quote from Bilal Ismail himself on their forums:

Bilal Ismail*
AlKauthar Instructor & Head of AlKauthar Students Guild
*
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,156

Ws

1. The first point is as far as I have knowledge and my contact with the Scholars is concerned my understanding regarding Fiqh is that we follow the Quran and Sunnah based upon the Understanding of the Salaf, regardless of whether they are Hanafi, Maliki, Shaafi, Hanbali etc. Obviously we dont take our own understanding of the Quran and Hadith as we are not capable.

YES AND THE SALAF WERE THE FOUR IMAMS TOO

2. The second point is that when it comes to Taqlid Shaksi ie blind following a certain Imam from the 4 Imams, then this goes against the Sunnah of the Messenger and the teachings of the 4 Imams. An example of this is a woman marrying without her Wali, many people will hold firm to this opinion regardless of the Hadith contradicting it and if you ask them why they will say that their Imam said this and we cannot leave his opinion.

YOU HAVE TALEED [OR UNIVERSAL TAQLEED IF YOU WANT TO CALL IT - TO ASK THOSE WHO KNOW -BE IT IN THE FORM OF A SCHOLAR/MUFTI/TEACHER/BOOK/WEBSITE] AND TAQLEED SHAKHSI [TAQLEED OF 1 PERSON OR SCHOOL ONLY].
UNIVERSAL IS WHAT MOST ULAMA ACKNOWLEDGE AND VERY FEW HAVE DENIED. THE LAYMAN ASKS THOSE WHO KNOW
AS FOR SHAKHSI, THEN IS IS PUT FORWARD BY SOME AND ESPECIALLY IN THE INDIAN SUBCONTINENT THE HANAFIS REALLY PUSH THIS WHILE THE ARAB HANAFIS DONT REALLY DO SO.
SO AGAIN UNIVERSAL TAQLEED IS CORRECT [AND EVERYONE DOES IT] WHILE SHAKHSI IS ALLOWED BUT NOT AN OBLIGATION AS THE HANAFIS OF THE INDIAN SUBCONTINENT CLAIM.

At Tayyib
27-02-2012, 06:27 AM
http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=7072
Here is a post from Sajid Umar – In there he explains how he performs 8 rakah of Tarawih:

I was blessed thereafter in being offered the Maghrib Salaah, and after iftaar lead the congregation in 8 Raka'aat (Rakaats) of taraweeh, after which I performed a brief tafseer surrounded the 20th juz, that we completed.

Is this the action of a Hanafi?

This is something shocking. How can one pray taraweeh after Maghrib?

afriki_haqq
27-02-2012, 09:41 AM
:salam:

I would appreciate if Mawlana Shamli or anyone else can look at the following article and discussion by Bilal Ismail:

Misconceptions some Salafis have regarding following a madh-hab (http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=9581)

:jazak:

afriki_haqq
27-02-2012, 11:02 AM
:salam:

It seems other Salafis are not too big fans of Al-Kauthar either. Lets see what they write on the notorious ahya forum.

A person by the name of "abooaisha" posted (note the double-o in aboo):


I want to ask the Salafi/ Ahle Hadith brothers and sisters from South Africa about an individual from there who is called Bilal Ismail.

He is a tutor from Al Kauthar organisation and there it proudly proclaims he is from a Tablighi Jamat family. And he proclaimed proudly at his recent course (15th & 16th May 2010) on Salah, that he is Hanafi. He also promoted all the Hanafi opinions eg saying there is no evidence for hands on the chest, but there is evidence for hands below the navel, women don't have to cover their feet in salah, trousers don't need to be above ankles except in salah etc. the list continues.

Unfortunately the Ahle Hadith mosques have been laying out the red carpet for this individual and Green Lane Masjid has called him on a number of occasions to do talks and khutbahs. Makki masjid in Manchester is hosting him this week.

There is a serious infiltration of Muqallids into the Salafis and Ahle Hadith going on right now, led by the organisers and followers of two organisations: Al Kauthar and Al Maghrib.

These 2 organisations are working hand in hand and capitalising on anti-SP sentiment and a resentment of unqualified speakers and presenting professionally presented courses by Madinah-qualified speakers to the unsuspecting Ahle Hadith.

They are bringing in Deobandis by the back door.

And further he continues:


His statement in the course was very clear and witnessed by all the attendees:

"I am Hanafi"

On Al Kauthar forums he has also openly been praising Deobandis and Dar ul Uloom Deoband, saying that students of knowledge should attend there.

As for him being a Shaykh, he is just a youth, just because he has a BA from Madinah with their MCQ exams and 30% pass marks does not mean he is an aalim, far from it. He is a student of knowledge and unless he carries on studying and makes his 'aqeedah then he will not make an 'aalim.

Anyone can go onto Al Kauthar website and see it proudly displaying he is from a Tablighi family and him arguing and getting angry with a brother over being questioned about Deoband.

The notion of a Hanafi, Deoband-loving proud-Tablighi-family-child being sent to promote "Salafism" by the Saudis is a strange one.

Alongside the fact that this would be akin to sending a wolf to guard sheep:

Firstly there is no such thing as "Salafism".

Secondly, the Saudis do not officially appoint anyone to spread "Salafism", they give out positions of dawah and many Deobandis and Asharis have had and still hold "official" positions given by the government of Saudi Arabia. The hard-core Sufi Hayati Deobandi "Molana Makki" is also officially appointed by the government to lecture inside the Haram.

Thirdly. no Salafi says "I'm Hanafi" just as no Hanafi would every say "I'm Salafi".

Lastly he has a bad habit of mentioning perverted things when he speaks in front of mixed audiences including sisters.

In Green Lane he said something so disgusting and graphic to do with private parts even Abu Khadeejah and Bilal Davis would blush.

And this weekend at Cardiff, despite being supposedly "advised" after the Green Lane fiasco, he repeated the exact same statement again. This time FACE TO FACE directly in front of sisters. Our positions is If you have no shame do as you wish, he who has no shame has no iman. Wallahi these are the things we criticise the Deobandis and Tablighis for and now we have one of them talking to our young sisters about these things too.

How sisters who wear niqab and hijab can then sit in gathering where the sizes of men's private organs are being talked and joked about is beyond me. It seems we have developed sheep brains in our community too, that is why we are being taught taqleed by muqallids in

Found that last part shocking, there is more about it but due to the sensitive nature of the content I will not post it here.

Aram
27-02-2012, 11:26 AM
i came across that same thread, see this is my issue, the teachers are preaching taqleed shakhsi to people who don't even understand what a madhab is

I have come across many al kawthar / al maghrib students like this who think madhabs are based on "shirk" and "bidah" they have an extremely poor understanding of fiqh

and too of aqeedah...their main problem with asharis/maturidis is that they believe Allah is everywhere...i mean i don't know what these guys are teaching them but they come out with such statements and then have the nerve to talk about others blind following...clearly they have never themselves looked up the aqeedah of these groups and they have never looked up what a madhab really is

conclusion...they are neither salafis, nor ahle hadith....they all ahle confused

afriki_haqq
27-02-2012, 11:32 AM
Some interesting quotes by Tawfique Chowdhury have been extracted by a brother on another forum, these are all taken from the Al-Kauthar forum. I will post a few here:

I would appreciate if others give a short commentary on these.


My usulfiqh is primarily hanbali osool - primarily that of Ibn Qudaamah rahimahullah. I studied some of the books of the Hanbali madhab, however don't always stick to it if the osool dictactes otherwise.

As a result, primarily it is hanbali in base, however since academic tertiary study requires us to know all the madhabs, I mention all of them and the strongest opinion that I point out in the course is the opinion that is usually in accordance with the usulfiqh of RawdatunNadhir wa Jannatul Manadhir of Imam Ibn Qudaamah which is based and derived from Shafi usulfiqh from AlMustawsaf of Imam alghazzali may Allah have mercy on all of them.


The 'strictest' madhab differs according to the topic. So for example:
The strictest madhab in:
Purification: Shafi/Hanbali > Maliki > Hanafi
Prayer: Shafi/Hanafi > Hanafi > Maliki
Food/Drinks: Hanafi > Hanbali/Maliki > Shafi
Fasting: Maliki > Hanafi > Hanbali > Shafi
Zakat: Hanbali/Shafi > Maliki > Hanafi
Business transactions: Shafi > Hanbali/Maliki > Hanafi
Marriage: Hanafi > Maliki > Shafi/Hanbali


The madhab of the layman is that of the Mujtahid scholar that he/she is following - it may be a scholar of a madhab or an independant scholar.

If someone asks you which madhab you are following - then it depends on the above, since we clarified in our class that although it may be permissible and in some times recommended to follow a madhab, it is in no way obligatory and to make it obligatory is closer to being an innovation than being wajib!

So if someone follows the classical hanbali madhab through the books of ibn qudamah and holds on to that, then he is hanbali in madhab, and if he follows that of ibn taymiyyah may Allah have mercy on them all, then he is asl hambali but digresses to the opinions of the sheikh in those matters in which the sheikh had independant opinions to the madhab.

In general, if poeple ask you which madhab are you on, it can either be a genuine question in which case you reply genuinely for information purposes. if it is not a genuine question, then leave these people alone as they don't understand the purpose of madhab nor the reality of blind following, nor taqleed.

afriki_haqq
27-02-2012, 11:48 AM
There is a huge effort amongst the Salafis to re-interpret what is Salafism. More info on this can be found on the IA forums. Check threads "Salafi fiqh: Cleanup operation" by our good friend HH. The aim is to clean up the mess which is "Salafi Fiqh"...

This sums up Salafi fiqh (btw, this post was thanked by 14 members, its all on the IA forums)


The reality is that none of you salafis are actually following Quran and Sunnah or the "Strongest Opinion", you have picked up a copy of "The Prophets Prayer Described" by Albaani (Rh) and that is your madhab, the toe to toe during the prayer, placing your hands on your chest, moving the finger constantly during tashahud - none of you can clearly say these are the strongest opinion except that you read it in that book that Albaani (rh) who believed it to be so. Pure hardcore blind taqleed and no different than the hanafis of the subcontinent that you all so desperately want to be different from.

afriki_haqq
27-02-2012, 11:56 AM
Last post for now on this. This brother sums up a very important point and it remains un-answered on the AK forum. He is a student at AK taking into account his other posts.

http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=46180&postcount=1


[taken from: http://umarlee.com/15-questions-for-salafis/]

Why is it that a vast chunk of the Sunni Imaams throughout the history of the Ummah were madhhab-following Soofis and were of the Ash’aree, Maatureedee, and Atharee creeds?

One finds that if the Imaams were not of the Ash’ariyyah, they were of the Maatureediyyah, and vice-versa. If they were neither, they were of the Athariyyah; and if they were none of these three creeds they would be considered outside of the Sunni sect unless if their creeds coincided with any of the three creeds mentioned. How do the Salafiyyah reconcile this historical fact with their understanding of history?

If the Ash’ariyyah, Maatureediyyah, and Soofiyyah are deviant – as the Salafiyyah claim – then how do they reconcile this with the historical fact that the Ottoman Empire was a Sunni, Hanafee, Soofi caliphate and were proponents of the Ash’aree/Maatureedee creeds? Do we consider the Ottomans deviants and put them outside the fold of Islaam?

it woukd be beneficial to understand as much of the termonilogy at a base level as much as possible before the course..

M
___

Shamli 1857
27-02-2012, 09:06 PM
:salam:

It seems other Salafis are not too big fans of Al-Kauthar either. Lets see what they write on the notorious ahya forum.

A person by the name of "abooaisha" posted (note the double-o in aboo):



And further he continues:



Found that last part shocking, there is more about it but due to the sensitive nature of the content I will not post it here.

Seems like the old-fashioned Salafis don't appreciate their doublespeak and want it black or white.

ImamGhazzaali
27-02-2012, 11:16 PM
is Bilaal Isma'il = br. Harris Hammam?

NeednoName
28-02-2012, 03:06 AM
is Bilaal Isma'il = br. Harris Hammam?

No! Br. HH = Ismail Patel

You can read his short Bio here:

http://blogs.informatandm.com/authors/ismail-patel/

afriki_haqq
28-02-2012, 07:13 AM
No! Br. HH = Ismail Patel

You can read his short Bio here:

http://blogs.informatandm.com/authors/ismail-patel/

Fantastic, a face to the name!

NeednoName
28-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Fantastic, a face to the name!

I am sure everyone will find him contrary to their perception.

afriki_haqq
28-02-2012, 07:55 AM
Some research being done into Sajid Umar. Need to correct myself as I previously stated he was born in Zimbabwe. He was born in Leicester but attended school and college in Zimbabwe. From the Al-Kauthar and Mercy Mission websites:


He travelled to Riyadh where he enrolled at Imaam Muhammed Ibn Saud Islamic University completing a University Diploma in Arabic language and Islamic Sciences. He continued his studies at al-Imaam University, graduating with a Bachelors degree in Shari’ah. He is currently pursuing his Masters, specialising in Comparative Islamic Law in the Higher Institute for Judiciary Studies (Ma’had al’aaly lil Qadha) at al-Imam University.

He has spent much of his semester breaks teaching various Islamic programs for the youth and adults in Saudi Arabia, UK , South Africa, Malawi and Zimbabwe. These classes ranged from lectures in Masaajid, on radio, TV and via online mediums. He has also spent time working on syllabus and curriculums for use in Islamic schools based in the West. He is an Imaam and Khateeb of the largest Masjid in Zimbabwe. He is also a Lecturer at Knowledge International University and a member of their Academic Management Team. His hobbies include building computers to customer specs, book collecting and reading. Sajid is married, has a brown belt in karate, is a keen golfer, swimmer, footballer and cricketer, and has completed over 15 articles and 5 dissertations related to Islamic Sciences.

Very interesting that he is a lecturer Knowledge International University (http://kiu.org) which is but another arm of the Saudi Education Ministry. Just looking through their Aqeedah courses (http://kiu.org/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=64&Itemid=255), then these are present by one Dr. Bilal Philips (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?57663-Video-of-Bilal-Philips-making-fun-and-mockery-of-madhabs-and-fiqh).

Also, on his personal blog (http://sajidahmedumar.blogspot.com) Sajid Umar categorises Tawheed (http://sajidahmedumar.blogspot.com/2010/08/1st-night-taraweeh-alfaatiha-and-1st.html).


We have the manifestation of all the categories of Tawheed present!

Tawheed arRuboobiyyah in the verse (Maaliki yawmid deen),

Tawheed alUloohiyya in the verse (Iyyaka na'budu waiyyakanastaeen),

and Tawheed alAsmaa' was Sifaat in the verse (arRahmaanir Raheem).

Interestingly, the Deobandis in South Africa especially love him. This is worrying...

Abu Zakariya Yahya
28-02-2012, 10:12 AM
Interestingly, the Deobandis in South Africa especially love him. This is worrying... Another case of Salafist-taqiyyah being used successfully.

I know him personally, how is he using taqiyyah? or perhaps I misunderstood your using of the word.

Shamli 1857
28-02-2012, 10:29 AM
It seems the brother pretends to be a Hanafi but is in fact a Salafi. This is what brother afriki-haqq perhaps meant.

afriki_haqq
28-02-2012, 11:01 AM
I know him personally, how is he using taqiyyah? or perhaps I misunderstood your using of the word.


It seems the brother pretends to be a Hanafi but is in fact a Salafi. This is what brother afriki-haqq perhaps meant.

Actually, I have found that he hasn't said anywhere about being Hanafi. Mawlana Shamli if you know of it please post it up. In his bio there is no mention that he has studied at a Darul 'Uloom either. I had the impression that he was a Darul 'Uloom graduate as I have seen him referred to as "Mawlana Sajid". Abu Zakariya perhaps you can clarify as you know him personally.

For now I have edited my post to remove that line until anything can be proven conclusively.

:jazak:

Shamli 1857
28-02-2012, 03:22 PM
Seems the infamous Harris Hammam (AKA Ismail Patel) is irked by this thread.

http://forums.*********************/f16/deception-sunniforum-vis-%E0-vis-taql-d-33412/index103.html


Harris Hammam
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Re: The Deception of Sunniforum Vis-à-vis Taqlīd

Just look at this fantastic analysis on anti-Kalami Hanafis by a resident Molvi on SF:

I think their usage of the word Hanafi is in the literal meaning (as in monotheist) and not the common ('urfi) meaning, as in an adherent of the Hanafi mathhab. They seem to employ this lexical strategy to confuse the Hanafi laity. I presume not all Salafis recognise this and therefore criticise the Al Kauthar crew because of this...

Al Kauthar Institute - Is this Salafi? - Page 2

i.e. by Hanafi, these people means 'Muwahhid', and not 'on the Madhhab of Abu Hanifah'.

I'm really impressed. Reading these Salafi conspiracy theories is more entertaining than watching MacGyver locked up in a room.
Last edited by Harris Hammam; 1 Week Ago at 10:27 PM.

daywalk3r
28-02-2012, 03:39 PM
I take it reading this thread the Al kawthar ‘onslaught’ on S.Africa has just started and it seems as though the (recent?) events they had went down really well – correct?

If so, I remember the other very lengthy SF thread on Al Magrhib and Al Kawthar, werein most of the comments coming across from S.Africa seemed to dismissed the ‘threat’ saying along the lines of its a (passing) fad, not to worry, no need for local masjids, ulama to ‘step-up’ their offering, etc. If so ...wow how this thread puts those comments kinda out of focus now.

Has Al Magrhib started doing events in S.Africa yet?

afriki_haqq
28-02-2012, 04:58 PM
I take it reading this thread the Al kawthar ‘onslaught’ on S.Africa has just started and it seems as though the (recent?) events they had went down really well – correct?

If so, I remember the other very lengthy SF thread on Al Magrhib and Al Kawthar, werein most of the comments coming across from S.Africa seemed to dismissed the ‘threat’ saying along the lines of its a (passing) fad, not to worry, no need for local masjids, ulama to ‘step-up’ their offering, etc. If so ...wow how this thread puts those comments kinda out of focus now.

Has Al Magrhib started doing events in S.Africa yet?

Al Maghrib has not started in South Africa.

It is debateable whether so far Al Kauthar have been successful or not. If the community is not educated - like in this thread - and a good, viable alternative is not presented then in a few years the effects will be felt.

Shamli 1857
28-02-2012, 05:07 PM
I take it reading this thread the Al kawthar ‘onslaught’ on S.Africa has just started and it seems as though the (recent?) events they had went down really well – correct?

If so, I remember the other very lengthy SF thread on Al Magrhib and Al Kawthar, werein most of the comments coming across from S.Africa seemed to dismissed the ‘threat’ saying along the lines of its a (passing) fad, not to worry, no need for local masjids, ulama to ‘step-up’ their offering, etc. If so ...wow how this thread puts those comments kinda out of focus now.

Has Al Magrhib started doing events in S.Africa yet?

Don't sit tight in the UK, a similar thing is happening in the UK also.

afriki_haqq
28-02-2012, 05:18 PM
Don't sit tight in the UK, a similar thing is happening in the UK also.

Mawlana, can we also discuss some alternatives? In South Africa one of the larger Muslim communities organised a program where basic courses where to be given. A senior well-known Mufti was also called to present these. Turn-out was poor, about 10-15 people in a community of more then 10 Masajid. Why is it that AK courses will be sold out...where are our Ulama going wrong?

Also, this program was not held as such as a reply to Al-Kauthar. Far from it, the local 'Ulama have actually not understood the methodology of Al-Kauthar and adopt the approach of... "we don't talk against whatever seems good". I don't find this approach of "silence" helpfull or in anyway better then "confrontation". There has to be some sort of balanced approach but as I said they have failed to fully comprehend the problem.

daywalk3r
28-02-2012, 05:44 PM
both of these orgs are very good at what they do, here and in US and probs soon in S.Africa. That thread (below) has many good posts which im sure equally apply here. There arent many alternatives here in UK though Ebrahim College and As Suffa alhumdolillah have stepped-up very well over the past year or so. However UK masjids, etc are light years behind....

61 pages = http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?57195-Al-Maghrib-and-Al-Kauthar/page61 (happy reading!)

At Tayyib
29-02-2012, 04:27 AM
Mawlana, can we also discuss some alternatives? In South Africa one of the larger Muslim communities organised a program where basic courses where to be given. A senior well-known Mufti was also called to present these. Turn-out was poor, about 10-15 people in a community of more then 10 Masajid. Why is it that AK courses will be sold out...where are our Ulama going wrong?

Also, this program was not held as such as a reply to Al-Kauthar. Far from it, the local 'Ulama have actually not understood the methodology of Al-Kauthar and adopt the approach of... "we don't talk against whatever seems good". I don't find this approach of "silence" helpfull or in anyway better then "confrontation". There has to be some sort of balanced approach but as I said they have failed to fully comprehend the problem.

The problem is in our communities, Ilm is something which is gained after rigorously spending at least 6-10 years. One has to take up the madrasah environment and get cut off from society to achieve true knowledge. I believe this mentality is the cause of our current mess.

Deen and knowledge of Deen has to be presented in a practical, simplified and exemplified manner. What is taught in Madrasah's in not for every layman. We need to equip our masses with all the essential and basic knowledge to live a life for the pleasure of Allah. In today's time, OUTREACH approach is the most effective.

mospike
29-02-2012, 06:01 AM
Brother afriki_haqq i make dua that Allah accepts your fikr in this regard.

What you are going through now! The feelings you have now! i have had for the past 7 years, since i started on SF. If i remember correctly at one time Moulana Syria1 (or was the name syria,,, can’t recall) rebuked me for thinking that nothing is being done by our Ulama. This was 2 or 3 years ago. To date I haven’t seen anything tangible in this regard.

When you find Ulama that are willing to support you (and there are many, they just need to be engaged correctly) then i am willing to assist you In Sha Allah

afriki_haqq
29-02-2012, 06:10 AM
Brother afriki_haqq i make dua that Allah accepts your fikr in this regard.

What you are going through now! The feelings you have now! i have had for the past 7 years, since i started on SF. If i remember correctly at one time Moulana Syria1 (or was the name syria,,, can’t recall) rebuked me for thinking that nothing is being done by our Ulama. This was 2 or 3 years ago. To date I haven’t seen anything tangible in this regard.

When you find Ulama that are willing to support you (and there are many, they just need to be engaged correctly) then i am willing to assist you In Sha Allah

Brother mospike can you contact me, just leave your email here (http://ulamadeoband.wordpress.com). If you don't mind :insh: would like to discuss few matters in private.

At Tayyib
29-02-2012, 06:25 AM
When you find Ulama that are willing to support you (and there are many, they just need to be engaged correctly) then i am willing to assist you In Sha Allah

I suggest that you rope in some people who are experts in behavioral sciences and also have a fair knowledge of Deen and begin your work. Draft out your Goals and targets and plan them out. If you are looking for Ulema to guide you through all these stages from inception to execution, then tough luck.

There are very rare exception, most of the Ulema would not feel it easy to do things in an Unconventional and Revolutionary manner. They want to stick with the tried and tested method. It's not their fault. They have little to no training in behavioral sciences.

The Fake Shaykh
29-02-2012, 08:35 AM
I suggest that you rope in some people who are experts in behavioral sciences and also have a fair knowledge of Deen and begin your work. Draft out your Goals and targets and plan them out. If you are looking for Ulema to guide you through all these stages from inception to execution, then tough luck.

There are very rare exception, most of the Ulema would not feel it easy to do things in an Unconventional and Revolutionary manner. They want to stick with the tried and tested method. It's not their fault. They have little to no training in behavioral sciences.

Yesterday I was accompanying a well known UK scholar to a talk he was going to deliver, we talked about this thread and the conclusion was exactly what the above sentence in bold says, our ulama need to get grasp of this quickly otherwise they will further widen the gap between them and the public!

I would say as brother gabriel suggested quiet some time back that the ulama need to have training after they complete their alim/alimah courses or this is taught during their course.

faisal ahmad
29-02-2012, 10:23 AM
Seems the infamous Harris Hammam (AKA Ismail Patel) is irked by this thread.

http://forums.*********************/f16/deception-sunniforum-vis-%E0-vis-taql-d-33412/index103.html

Ignore Ismail Patel i.e. the guy who hides behind the alias HARRIS HAMMAM. He's just an internet addict who has nothing better to do. Even on the IA forums you'll see him often just replying to himself on threads with no-one else contributing or caring. Strange personality.

afriki_haqq
02-03-2012, 12:39 PM
:salam:

A post from the Al-Kauthar forums by s student of Tawfique Choudhary's Hilyatu Talibul-Ilm course. [I don't know if this course is still running, the book is written by Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd]. The contents of the questions make you wonder what exactly was taught in the lessons and also shows the confused nature of the student:

http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=10148


Assalamu Aleikum Wa Rahmatullah Sheikh Tawfeeq,

First of all Jazakallahu Khairan for giving us your precious time and teaching us this amazing book. Truely, I myself have seen myself being repelled by knowledgeable people with a bad akhlaq. Inshallah, knowledge from this book will help us represent ourselves in the most perfect manner, the way a true Muslim should.

I have always had an opinion that once I have enough knowledge, then I would be obliged to choose a Madhab (one of the four) and follow it. However, just recently I met an Imam who criticized Salafis for not having a Madhab and told me to strictly pick one based on my geographical location and follow it blindly. So, I wanted to clarify this weeks topic on being from the Salaf. Therefore, my questions are:

1) If someone picks a Madhab, let's say Maliki. Would they not be following the Sunnah of the Prophet (s.a.w.s) and the pious predecessors? If yes, then how are they different from the Salaf?

2) As Salafi, do we believe in all the 4 Madhab and avoid choosing only one?

3) Do Salafi ever pick one of the four Madhab and do we have to, once we have enough knowledge of the four Madhabs?

Jazakallahu Khairan for the answers. May Allah continue to reward your efforts and Make it easy for us to represent Islam in the most perfect manner.

Wassalamu Aleikum,
Abu Ibrahim Dahab

afriki_haqq
05-03-2012, 07:45 AM
:salam:

The Jamiatul Ulama South Africa held a 2 day course: Understanding the West and Muslim Response

Below is the invite and course details (http://www.jamiat.co.za/newsletter/online_newsletter_0704.htm):


Today’s dominance of Western civilisation is well-acknowledged. The ascendancy of Europe out of the Dark Ages was underpinned by the philosophical, social and theological foundations which shaped Western thought.
Going into the future, it is only natural that the West would like to maintain this dominance of wealth, power and most importantly thought.

Muslims living in the West can be better equipped to deal with their various challenges of identity as the West tries to condition them through assimilation, integration and multiculturalism.

What is Muslim responsibility in shaping a better future given these modern day realities?

This course will attempt to inspire participants to gain insights from history in order to draw lessons from Islamic heritage in dealing with contemporary challenges especially under minority settings.

The Jamiatul Ulama South Africa invites participants to this two-day educational programme on Undertanding the West and Muslim Response which will be held as follows:

Venue: FNB Building, Wits University West Campus

Date: Sat 11 - Sun 12 February 2012

Participation, Meals and Notes Fee: R300.00

Guest Resource Person: Ismail Adam Patel of the Friends of Al Aqsa in the UK

Reservation: By Monday 6 February 2012

Tel: 011 373 8000

Fax: 011 373 8022

Email: ilmi@islamsa.org.za

And this was the feedback (http://www.jamiat.co.za/newsletter/online_newsletter_0706.htm) from after the event;


A total of well over 130 participants to part in the inaugural Knowledge Gateway Series under the auspices of the Jamiatul Ulama South Africa in Johannesburg over the weekend.

The guest speaker was Brother Ismail Adam Patel of Friends of Al Aqsa in the UK. Brother Patel lectured on the ideologies that have shaped Western thought and how Muslims can responsibly deal with the New World Order.

Moulana Ebrahim I Bham also lectured in one of the sessions on the topic of Jihad: Meaning and Spirit at this programme which was held between 11 and 12 Feb 2012 at the Wits University’s FNB Building.

Overall, many participants were heartened that finally the Jamiatul Ulama South Africa was organizing and hosting the lectures which have been envisaged to cover a number of themes in the future, insha-Allah.

Another course: Dealing the Islamic Way Series was also held in January at Marlboro Masjid. The course deals with Islamic commerce and finance.

:alhamd: this is a correct move in the right direction. However, this alone is not enough and more is needed :insh: other 'Ulama and organisations will join in and see the need. We make dua that more such courses and events are held and may Allah grant success to the endeavors of the 'Ulama.

mospike
05-03-2012, 08:17 AM
http://deenclass.com/2012/03/imam-of-the-haram-of-makkah-sheikh-mahir-al-muayqili-kzn-programme/

faisal ahmad
05-03-2012, 11:05 AM
Br Afriki_haqq Is Ismail Patel from Friends of Al-Aqsa = Harris Hammam?

afriki_haqq
05-03-2012, 11:11 AM
Br Afriki_haqq Is Ismail Patel from Friends of Al-Aqsa = Harris Hammam?

:salam:

No, Ismail Patel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ismail_Patel)of Friends of Al Aqsa (http://www.foa.org.uk/about) IS NOT Harris Hammam.

Here is a book by Ismail Patel: Forty Hadith Concerning Masjid al-Aqsa (http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=2009&osCsid=8f96a18c65c04e217d67ee76b38f674b)

afriki_haqq
14-03-2012, 01:20 PM
:salam:

Things are getting really interest and heated in the build up to Shaykh Mahir al-Muaqily's visit to South Africa (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84818-Imam-of-Harams-leading-Esha-while-on-travel&p=739989#post739989).

Just going to post some comments from the Facebook profile of "Shaykh" Mohammed Wadee (http://www.facebook.com/alwadi1) [religious attaché of the Saudi Embassy in South Africa]:


Mohammed Wadee
8 March at 18:38
One of the most important Hadith is a hadith called 'Hadith Jibreel.' It discusses the most important points of Islam and Imaan. Dont miss the chance to learn this hadith at the hands of 3 leading scholars: Sh.Maahir Al-Muaqili, Mufti Ismail Menk & Sh. Bilaal Jeebhai.

........

Fatima Asmal
Mufti Menk and Bilal Jeebhai? In one programme? Strange strange times we live in.
Today at 00:25 • Like
Imraan Mollagee
Sh bilal ismail right?
@Fatima, what's so strange? Its not the 1st time they together in 1 programme.. But wat makes u say its strange?
Today at 01:53 • Like
Fatima Asmal
@Imraan Mollagee Jazakumullahu khayran for the question. It's strange (to me) as an organisational representative who is aware of some of the behind-the-scenes dynamics. If appearances are to be believed then when Bilal is in the UK, he and Menk are on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, as in a youtube video he (Bilal) addressing a crowd at the Salafi Green Lane Masjid speaks about how happy he is to be at a Salafi Masjid and laments the fact that there isn't a Salafi masjid in his home country. Menk on the other hand, on radio (Al-Ansaar) has criticised Salafism and advised parents not to send their children to study there (privately, I'm told his advice is different). However perhaps Bilal's attempts to convince South Africans that he's not a Salafi are working - he uses the words 'Deobandi Tableeghi background' in his AlKauthar profile, the last time I checked included a work by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi on his website....and has included both Menk and Prof Dangor one of the least Salafi-inclined people I know in this upcoming programme. I would have taught he'd give the other Deenclass tutors a platform, viz Musaaid Dawood and Ismail Kamdar. In my opinion, it's about pulling a crowd. As for them being together in programmes before, in Cape Town yes, I'm aware of that. But in Durban no. I've been told by Menk and other South African ulama, when I've invited them to speak at ILM-SA conferences (and they declined) that Cape Town is a different matter entirely (it's more tolerant about these things). This post should come with a disclaimer...I have nothing against Salafis...in fact, on sunniforum it is said I'm a staunch Salafi (not true anymore - that would have applied in 2006)...I respect the moderate amongst them who are humble in their attitudes. My problem is with pretending to be someone you're not for the sake of winning numbers, and being inconsistent as a result thereof.
7 hours ago • Like • 2
Suzi Ismail
Strange, but a brilliant move non the less.the only question is"who benefits?"(default answer"the muslims of durban")
6 hours ago • Like • 1
Mohamed Fakier
GUYS, can't we drop labels for one day in our lives. life is simpler when you just say two aalims will be together at the same programme. And the Deen will benefit
4 hours ago • Like
Fatima Asmal
Mohamed; perhaps the aalims need to drop the labels themselves and be more consistent - whether the Imam of the haram is around or not.
4 hours ago • Like
Fatima Asmal
I just chatted to Prof Dangor - he informed me he withdrew from the programme.
54 minutes ago • Like

This part of the above is very interesting, Fatima Asmal-Motala writes:


If appearances are to be believed then when Bilal is in the UK, he and Menk are on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum, as in a youtube video he (Bilal) addressing a crowd at the Salafi Green Lane Masjid speaks about how happy he is to be at a Salafi Masjid and laments the fact that there isn't a Salafi masjid in his home country. Menk on the other hand, on radio (Al-Ansaar) has criticised Salafism and advised parents not to send their children to study there (privately, I'm told his advice is different). However perhaps Bilal's attempts to convince South Africans that he's not a Salafi are working - he uses the words 'Deobandi Tableeghi background' in his AlKauthar profile, the last time I checked included a work by Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanwi on his website....and has included both Menk and Prof Dangor one of the least Salafi-inclined people I know in this upcoming programme. I would have taught he'd give the other Deenclass tutors a platform, viz Musaaid Dawood and Ismail Kamdar. In my opinion, it's about pulling a crowd.

The above event in question with Mufti Menk and Shaykh Bilal is going to take place in Reservoir Hills, Durban.

SASLAMS
15-03-2012, 06:54 AM
Is this the same Sh Bilal thats from KZN, that was beaten up last year or year before. I whent to a lecture once & they had sh Anwaar Al Awlaki on satelite phone. I rmember the mc introduced sh bilal as Mol Bilal, Sh Bilal quickly corrected him. but he is no doubt a salafi.

afriki_haqq
15-03-2012, 07:12 AM
Is this the same Sh Bilal thats from KZN, that was beaten up last year or year before. I whent to a lecture once & they had sh Anwaar Al Awlaki on satelite phone. I rmember the mc introduced sh bilal as Mol Bilal, Sh Bilal quickly corrected him. but he is no doubt a salafi.

:salam:

Yes, the same Shaykh Abu Yusuf Bilal Ismail Jeebhai (http://deenclass.com/tutors/). His incident is well known and the story he wrote is on the internet. I believe he was beaten up by Barelwis.

It does seem that there is alot of tensions between perhaps two leading Salafis of South Africa concerning Shaykh Bilal and his ill-fated term at Ilm-SA (www.ilmsa.co.za/). Time that they clear up their own mess before propagating to the masses about the so-called corruption of our 'Ulama. [The above posts from facebook have conveniently been deleted, :alhamd: it is preserved here on SF]

(This thread is having its effects and I have seen and heard alot of mention about it elsewhere, I know urge the 'Ulama of South Africa in particular and elsewhere in general to take heed :insh:)

:ws:

At Tayyib
15-03-2012, 07:20 AM
Is this the same Sh Bilal thats from KZN, that was beaten up last year or year before.


:salam:

Yes, the same Shaykh Abu Yusuf Bilal Ismail Jeebhai (http://deenclass.com/tutors/). His incident is well known and the story he wrote is on the internet. I believe he was beaten up by Barelwis.



Something to learn from the Barelwis. They really do know when to rumble. They are one notch ahead of us in this matter.

Kudos to the Barelwis

mospike
15-03-2012, 08:31 AM
WE! the so called ‘tradionalists’ will always prevail. Because over and above the technicalities we have a strong link to sulook and purification of the heart. Ones heart cannot be purified when you constantly seeking to outdo and outshine your fellow brethren.

This goes for the modernist approach too! The like of which is being instigated and propagated by the ‘professors’ at UJ and UCT with their ‘department Religion Studies ‘

QaalaLLAHU ta’aala “Innal baatila kaana zahooqa”

At Tayyib
15-03-2012, 08:46 AM
WE! the so called ‘tradionalists’ will always prevail. Because over and above the technicalities we have a strong link to sulook and purification of the heart. Ones heart cannot be purified when you constantly seeking to outdo and outshine your fellow brethren.

This goes for the modernist approach too! The like of which is being instigated and propagated by the ‘professors’ at UJ and UCT with their ‘department Religion Studies ‘

QaalaLLAHU ta’aala “Innal baatila kaana zahooqa”

You forgot the cause of Zahooqa.

Ja al Haq (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84969-Maslak-Ala-Hadrat.&p=735544&viewfull=1#post735544). Haq has to present itself and not hide in the masjid and Khanqahs. Where ever Batil is situated, Haq has to present itself there, then only will Batil will vanish.

Batil may be within Yourself

Batil may be in Your Home

Batil may be in Your Masjid

Batil may be in Your Khanqah

Batil may be in Your Madrasah

Batil may be in your Community

Batil may be in your Trade.

It is our task to present Haq in all such places. Then only Batil will vanish

:jazak:

Shamli 1857
12-04-2012, 01:21 PM
Salam,

I'm wondering if anyone here attended this event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypr5UeBt0xs

I'm particularly interested in what Shaykh Imtiyaz Damiel, a tutor with Al Kauthar and founder of the Abu Hanifah Foundation (http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/index.php/home/big-event) in Blackburn, had to say.

Shamli 1857
01-05-2012, 02:26 PM
Salam,

I'm wondering if anyone here attended this event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypr5UeBt0xs

I'm particularly interested in what Shaykh Imtiyaz Damiel, a tutor with Al Kauthar and founder of the Abu Hanifah Foundation (http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/index.php/home/big-event) in Blackburn, had to say.

Any thoughts on this?

Shamli 1857
02-05-2012, 02:09 PM
Imtiyaz Damiel is a Salafi no doubt. Then why has he established an organisation after the Imam of the Hanafis? I think it's a marketing ploy.

Rahmaniyyah
02-05-2012, 03:52 PM
Imtiyaz Damiel is a Salafi no doubt. Then why has he established an organisation after the Imam of the Hanafis? I think it's a marketing ploy.

:salam:

Are you certain he is also the founder of the AHF? If so, it would be very sly, but also extremely well-done. The website quotes Imam Ghazali, and they twitter quotes from Mufti Taqi Usmani. Their website is simply brilliant and so professional. I had the opportunity to visit the school out-of-hours, and they are very professional and tidy. Lots of (maybe too much) technology in the school.

amr123
02-05-2012, 04:00 PM
Salam,

I'm wondering if anyone here attended this event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypr5UeBt0xs

I'm particularly interested in what Shaykh Imtiyaz Damiel, a tutor with Al Kauthar and founder of the Abu Hanifah Foundation (http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/index.php/home/big-event) in Blackburn, had to say.


Imtiyaz Damiel is a Salafi no doubt. Then why has he established an organisation after the Imam of the Hanafis? I think it's a marketing ploy.


:salam:

Are you certain he is also the founder of the AHF? If so, it would be very sly, but also extremely well-done. The website quotes Imam Ghazali, and they twitter quotes from Mufti Taqi Usmani. Their website is simply brilliant and so professional. I had the opportunity to visit the school out-of-hours, and they are very professional and tidy. Lots of (maybe too much) technology in the school.


:inna:

Shamli 1857
03-05-2012, 07:20 AM
:salam:

Are you certain he is also the founder of the AHF? If so, it would be very sly, but also extremely well-done. The website quotes Imam Ghazali, and they twitter quotes from Mufti Taqi Usmani. Their website is simply brilliant and so professional. I had the opportunity to visit the school out-of-hours, and they are very professional and tidy. Lots of (maybe too much) technology in the school.

There's no doubt in him being a Salafi.

afriki_haqq
03-05-2012, 07:29 AM
There's no doubt in him being a Salafi.

:salam:

According to his profile on al-Kauthar he has studied the 5 year 'alim course at Blackburn and after that went on to study hadith and tafsir at King Saud University.

Shamli 1857
03-05-2012, 07:39 AM
:salam:

According to his profile on al-Kauthar he has studied the 5 year 'alim course at Blackburn and after that went on to study hadith and tafsir at King Saud University.

Don't believe everything you read. I hear from reliable sources that he hardly finished studies at DU. Besides, there are examples of DU graduates leaving and then moving away form the way of their Akabir. I believe Damiel was injected by Salafism while at Leeds University. He spent time with Seikh Abdulah Aljudai, an Iraqi who is a Salafi.

afriki_haqq
03-05-2012, 07:58 AM
Don't believe everything you read. I hear from reliable sources that he hardly finished studies at DU. Besides, there are examples of DU graduates leaving and then moving away form the way of their Akabir. I believe Damiel was injected by Salafism while at Leeds University. He spent time with Seikh Abdulah Aljudai, an Iraqi who is a Salafi.

I agree with the above and there are many such clear examples (some of which we have touched on the thread before). It reiterates the point that these al-Kauthar tutors and others have used the tactic of showing their links to Hanafi and Deobandis to rope in innocent and gullible people (some of whom we had seen appear on this thread also). [PS: I remember reading this article (http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=9068) by Damiel some time ago.]

Damiel is also listed on Bilal Philips IOU as an instructor.

--------------------

Interestingly on the Abu Hanifa Foundation website I found in the curriculum section that their two complimentary syllabi are from South Africa.
The Tasheel syllabus is designed by the Jamiatul Ulama and is widely used both here and elsewhere. The other syllabus (http://www.ieosa.org.za/) developed in Durban I have no information about. The main syllabus is from the International Curricula Organisation (ICO) (http://www.iconetwork.com) and it has some testimonials from Zakir Naik, Zarabozo and others.

Shamli 1857
03-05-2012, 08:20 AM
I agree with the above and there are many such clear examples (some of which we have touched on the thread before). It reiterates the point that these al-Kauthar tutors and others have used the tactic of showing their links to Hanafi and Deobandis to rope in innocent and gullible people (some of whom we had seen appear on this thread also). [PS: I remember reading this article (http://forums.alkauthar.org/showthread.php?t=9068) by Damiel some time ago.]

Damiel is also listed on Bilal Philips IOU as an instructor.

--------------------

Interestingly on the Abu Hanifa Foundation website I found in the curriculum section that their two complimentary syllabi are from South Africa.
The Tasheel syllabus is designed by the Jamiatul Ulama and is widely used both here and elsewhere. The other syllabus (http://www.ieosa.org.za/) developed in Durban I have no information about. The main syllabus is from the International Curricula Organisation (ICO) (http://www.iconetwork.com) and it has some testimonials from Zakir Naik, Zarabozo and others.

We can conclude from this that Imtiyaz is not a true Hanafi let alone a Deobandi (who in this time and age are the actual and balanced upholders of the Hanafi mazhab in its pristine form). Imtiyaz has serious Salafi/Ghayr Muqallid tendencies. The question now arrises:

Why has he founded an organisation named after Imam Abu Hanifah? He should have called it Sh. Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhab Foundation.
Has this name been adopted to show oneself as being a Hanafi?
Are the Deobandi/Hanafis who associate with his organisation fully aware of his views?
Do the parents of children who study there realise that their children are being fed a Saudi curriculum?

afriki_haqq
03-05-2012, 08:27 AM
We can conclude from this that Imtiyaz is not a true Hanafi let alone a Deobandi (who in this time and age are the actual and balanced upholders of the Hanafi mazhab in its pristine form). Imtiyaz has serious Salafi/Ghayr Muqallid tendencies. The question now arrises:

Why has he founded an organisation named after Imam Abu Hanifah? He should have called it Sh. Mohammed bin Abdul Wahhab Foundation.
Has this name been adopted to show oneself as being a Hanafi?
Are the Deobandi/Hanafis who associate with his organisation fully aware of his views?
Do the parents of children who study there realise that their children are being fed a Saudi curriculum?

Questions that Imtiyaz and his fellow associates at AHF need to answer.

Would actually be great if Imtiyaz himself or someone from AHF comes on here to respond.

silentflute
03-05-2012, 10:32 AM
Questions that Imtiyaz and his fellow associates at AHF need to answer.

Would actually be great if Imtiyaz himself or someone from AHF comes on here to respond.

Imtiyaz Damiel has a facebook where there are regular updates
https://www.facebook.com/imtiyaz.damiel

One of his recent status updates were "Three books I taught last year on the origins of ḥanafī fiqh and the role of ḥadīth. Highly recommended, though may disagree with some points."
7648

Might be worth someone contacting Imtiyaz and clarifying ?

The Fake Shaykh
03-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Questions that Imtiyaz and his fellow associates at AHF need to answer.

Would actually be great if Imtiyaz himself or someone from AHF comes on here to respond.

Molana Junaid (at-tablig) has met him when Shaykh Imtiaz visited india, maybe he can answer

Shamli 1857
03-05-2012, 11:38 AM
Sh. Damyal refers to this website very much: http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/

It's peppered with fatwas that are not Hanafi and contrary to the Hanafi mazhab.

This person is not Hanafi or far from being one. Why the deception?

Abu_Uzair
03-05-2012, 11:41 AM
Molana Junaid (at-tablig) has met him when Shaykh Imtiaz visited india, maybe he can answer

sorry hazrat,that was shaikh muhammed danial haf (cordoba not this shaikh Imtiaz
shaikh danial is a true hanafi alhamdulillah

Shamli 1857
03-05-2012, 11:56 AM
http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/ResearchPaper.aspx?aid=416

Take a look at this one article, translated from Dr Fahd al-Oudah's book If'al wa la Haraj. This is on Damyal's Facebook.

In addition to our Deobandi/Hanafi Ulemas, Saudi Ulema have also refuted this book. Sh. Damyal feels it is suitable for his Facebook and for people to benefit from it.

He also produces this article: http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/Article.aspx?aid=423

It has been critiqued by Salafi shaikhs here: http://www.dorar.net/art/588

There's also a list of books that have done radd on it. You can read more about the radds of the Saudi ulemahs here: http://www.****************/vb/showthread.php?t=87579 (ahl alhadeeth.com)

This now begs the question : What is Damiel up to?
Much of the contents is contrary to the the Hanafi mazhab. My issue isn't that he's a Salafi and follows the Salafi way, my problem is with him setting up an organisation in Deobandi community and calling it Abu Hanifah Foundation. There is something wrong here.

NeednoName
03-05-2012, 12:04 PM
Maulana Shamli,

Did you try taking up this matter directly with Br. Imtiyaz?

The Fake Shaykh
03-05-2012, 12:31 PM
sorry hazrat,that was shaikh muhammed danial haf (cordoba not this shaikh Imtiaz
shaikh danial is a true hanafi alhamdulillah

oh ok, they are two different people. I was always confused about this, that's why i emailed you the other day regarding this issue

jazaka'allah

Abu Zakariya Yahya
07-05-2012, 03:12 PM
This now begs the question : What is Damiel up to?
Much of the contents is contrary to the the Hanafi mazhab. My issue isn't that he's a Salafi and follows the Salafi way, my problem is with him setting up an organisation in Deobandi community and calling it Abu Hanifah Foundation. There is something wrong here.

If you want i can put you in direct contact with him so you may ask him yourself, begin by telling us who you are so that we know who to introduce you as.

But I'd like to say one thing, just because you may have differences with him, and just because your Deobandi Hanafi, does it mean you have a trademark for the name Abu Hanifa, or his Madhab? Perhaps the brother has understood something you didn't, or has read books you haven't, or has taken different selections than you have, similar to the issue of Taqleed that we know other Hanafis also took.... Just cause he differs with your Method, doesn't automatically mean he is wrong, and if you are sincere in trying to know the truth and come to a common ground, like i said above we can get you in contact with him.



وتعاونوا على البر والتقوى ولا تعاونوا على الإثم والعدوان واتقوا الله إن الله شديد العقاب .

And cooperate in righteousness and piety, but do not cooperate in sin and aggression. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.

admoumi
07-05-2012, 08:04 PM
Mawlana Shamli - I have to really question your methods in judging the Sheikh. If you seem to know so much about him, why don’t you speak to him directly rather than making accusations against him behind his back? Is this the character of an intellect?



Let me illustrate just one of the many flaws with your methods. You selected one article from the Islamic Studies website, (ironically forwarded by Sheikh `Abd Allah b. ash-Shaykh al-Mahfuz b. Bayyah, a Mauritanian scholar respected by scholars from all four schools and a teacher of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and another article written by the Sheikh al-Bayyah himself) and use that as a basis to attack the Sheikh’s character.

Listen to what Sh. Hamza Yusuf says about Sh. Bin Bayyah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhi-6BEItpE

Just by reading the about us page, on the Islamic Studies website, it is clear that the website is primarily for scholars and students of knowledge so that they familiarize themselves with different views.

“This website is primarily for English speaking scholars, Imāms, and students with an interest in the field of Islamic Studies. Through this website, we hope to introduce academic writings of reputable Muslim scholars, as well as facilitating ways to reach them. We also aim to make available research papers in English on a variety of Islamic subjects and especially issues related to Muslim Minority Fiqh. The website will also contain fatāwas issued by major judicial assemblies and legislative commissions.”


Why can’t the Sheikh allude to research papers written by respected scholars on a variety of issue. Also do you know exactly what is the role of the Sheikh on that website?

Then you attack him for some of the faṭāwās on that website the majority of which are from the Islamic Fiqh Academy, with the vice president of the academy being Mufti Taqi Uthmani for many many years!!

Listen to what Mufti Taqi has to say about the Islamic Fiqh Academy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWvaHZ85nJQ

So now according to your reasoning, is Mufti Taqi Uthmani a deviant too?

Finally, again using your selective method and questionable methods, look at the books I found on the same website:

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=528

Differences of the Imam by Sheikh Muhammad Zakariyya Kandhlawi

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=530

The Legal Status of Following a Madhab by Mufti Taqi Uthmani

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=527

Fiqh al-Imam: Key Proofs in Hanafi Fiqh by Sh. Abdur-Rahman b. Yusuf


http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=482


The Language of the Friday Khutbah by Mufti Taqi Uthmani

So what conclusions should we make about Sheikh Imtiyaz on the basis of these books? Especially when they tackle the most sensitive matter of Taqleed?

Even the previous comments of tawlib were completely disregarded and he had actually attended Sheikh Imtiyaz’s course over a period of two days dealing with the very issues of the Imams. Let me remind you of his words:

“The thing is, either you heard them speak against madhabs or you didn’t and I’m starting to get the feeling that you haven’t attended a course and you are basing your views on hearsay.

I actually attended the Chronicles of the shariah course by Imtiaz Damiel and not once was he disrespectful to Imaam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah alayh), Imaam Abu Yusuf (rahmatullah alayh) or Imaam Muhammad (rahmatullah alayh), and not once did he urge the students to leave their madhab, not even a subtle hint.

Furthermore, There were Hanafis , Shafies, Hanbalis and Maalikis at the course and I didn’t hear a single statement against any of the Madhabs or against any of the great Imaams.”

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84226-Al-Kauthar-Institute-Is-this-Salafi/page4


I think we should all fear Allah and remember that what we write about others could be a source of our punishment in the next life. If we have a problem with a brother try and address it with him directly rather than questioning his intentions, something which you are not privy to and painting everyone with the same brush.


Likewise, from what I know, Abu Hanifah Foundation, is run by local dedicated brothers, with the majority of teachers being alims and alimahs (graduates from Darul ulooms). If you want to know more about them, I would likewise suggest speaking to them directly rather than making unfounded allegations - this is the professional way.

http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/index.php/faqs

Look forward to your response.

Nomadic
08-05-2012, 09:13 AM
Some people - act like mafiosi - Deobandi mafia. According to this bunch even the elders of deoband would be wrong. They exhibit somewhat one sided aspect of hanafi madhab interpreted by a monolitich set of scholars. I would say most of these people are not even connected to suluk but have no problem attacking other deo scholars who don't agree with them. They are wahabyte debonadi with salafist mindset i.e madhabist!!
Allahualam

Abu_Tamim
08-05-2012, 09:15 AM
Some people - act like mafiosi - Deobandi mafia. According to this bunch even the elders of deoband would be wrong. They exhibit somewhat one sided aspect of hanafi madhab interpreted by a monolitich set of scholars. I would say most of these people are not even connected to suluk but have no problem attacking other deo scholars who don't agree with them. They are wahabyte debonadi with salafist mindset i.e madhabist!!
Allahualam

Sigh...somebody give me an aspirin.

muradmajid
08-05-2012, 09:46 AM
Asalaam U Alaikum brothers and sisters,

I am new to this forum and have just read parts of this thread. I wanted to ask why people are so caught up in issues of fiqh when we should be trying to purify the
heart, belief and actions of ourselves and the ummah. In regards to following the four schools of thought, they are all correct as long as they adhere to the Quran and Sunnah and do not deviate into innovation of the religion.

If the prophet pbuh was alive today he would NOT categorise us into 'schools of thought' or madhabs we would just be called Muslims. I would like some constructive feedback not emotional tribal behaviour please.

faisal ahmad
08-05-2012, 06:08 PM
Some people - act like mafiosi - Deobandi mafia... They are wahabyte debonadi with salafist mindset i.e madhabist!!
Allahualam

I think this is the funniest post I've read on sunniforum.

knight
08-05-2012, 06:22 PM
Asalaam U Alaikum brothers and sisters,

I am new to this forum and have just read parts of this thread. I wanted to ask why people are so caught up in issues of fiqh when we should be trying to purify the
heart, belief and actions of ourselves and the ummah. In regards to following the four schools of thought, they are all correct as long as they adhere to the Quran and Sunnah and do not deviate into innovation of the religion.

If the prophet pbuh was alive today he would NOT categorise us into 'schools of thought' or madhabs we would just be called Muslims. I would like some constructive feedback not emotional tribal behaviour please.

Fiqh is an essential part of deen, learning about what is halal and haram is fundamental, This clip explains your question pretty well http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fziw8emZjg

ImamGhazzaali
08-05-2012, 09:01 PM
Some people - act like mafiosi - Deobandi mafia. According to this bunch even the elders of deoband would be wrong. They exhibit somewhat one sided aspect of hanafi madhab interpreted by a monolitich set of scholars. I would say most of these people are not even connected to suluk but have no problem attacking other deo scholars who don't agree with them. They are wahabyte debonadi with salafist mindset i.e madhabist!!
Allahualam

Who?

umar_italy
09-05-2012, 12:08 AM
Asalaam U Alaikum brothers and sisters,

I am new to this forum and have just read parts of this thread. I wanted to ask why people are so caught up in issues of fiqh when we should be trying to purify the
heart, belief and actions of ourselves and the ummah. In regards to following the four schools of thought, they are all correct as long as they adhere to the Quran and Sunnah and do not deviate into innovation of the religion.

If the prophet pbuh was alive today he would NOT categorise us into 'schools of thought' or madhabs we would just be called Muslims. I would like some constructive feedback not emotional tribal behaviour please.

:ws:

See, the point is why then camouflaging as "Hanafis" when they are not and could be "respected" for what they are? The point is all about these "tricks" and lack of honesty.

ImamGhazzaali
09-05-2012, 12:42 AM
Assalamu 'alaykum,

Shaykh Imtiyaz's Abu Hanifah Foundation posted this in March [24th, 2011 to be exact] on their FB fan page:


Common Questions: Why the name "Abu Hanifah Foundation"?

Imam Abu Hanifah (may Allah have mercy on him) is the founder of one of the four schools of Islamic legal knowledge (fiqh) within the Sunni branch of Islam.

Given his continuing and widespread influence on the Islamic religious law, Imam Abu Hanifah is without question one of the Law’s Greats. One cannot fail to marvel at the creative, intelligent, sincere, and devoted application of Islam by Imam Abu Hanifah—a great Muslim, a great jurist, a great man. His life’s work has affected billions of souls; surely that merits at least a greater recognition of his contribution to Islam.

Masha'Allah.

warea
09-05-2012, 12:45 AM
Its the new garb of salafism. Hide their innovation by false cover up of being follower of the madhab. But its good though since they approach the evidence now from a more agreed upon principles of evidence unlike the "Quran and Sunnah only" slogan of the past. They would have to tolerate the differences in the Madhab and between madhabs unlike the totalitarian cult sect of salafism. Moreover, its a victory for ahlus sunnah to get them to identify themsleves with the madhabs. What matters now is to hold tight to the rrighteous scholars and continue refuting their innovations they attempt from within the madhab.

Abu Zakariya Yahya
09-05-2012, 01:45 AM
Its the new garb of salafism. Hide their innovation by false cover up of being follower of the madhab. But its good though since they approach the evidence now from a more agreed upon principles of evidence unlike the "Quran and Sunnah only" slogan of the past. They would have to tolerate the differences in the Madhab and between madhabs unlike the totalitarian cult sect of salafism. Moreover, its a victory for ahlus sunnah to get them to identify themsleves with the madhabs. What matters now is to hold tight to the rrighteous scholars and continue refuting their innovations they attempt from within the madhab.

It can't be a new garb of Salafism, because the brother studied in a country which since it's origination and it's very own founding fathers have followed a Madhab and have allowed others to follow one of the four Madhabs, as is quoted in the Fatawa of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and His son. It is nothing new that the scholars of this region of Saudi have been following a Madhab, however in following their Madhab they have also followed their version of Taqleed for the laymen, which is not the same as the one propagated on "Sunni"-forum. In fact, I would say that you can never find any one of the Muftis of the past or present telling people to leave their Madhab absolutely or not respecting differences in between the scholars. Just because there are some "Salafis" who propagate a false notion related Taqleed and Itba' and Madhahib, it doesn't make it the absolute correct stance. If you look at those scholars who talked about "Quran and Sunnah only" you will find most of them were not even Saudi to begin with.

Sultaan
09-05-2012, 03:44 PM
Its the new garb of salafism. Hide their innovation by false cover up of being follower of the madhab. But its good though since they approach the evidence now from a more agreed upon principles of evidence unlike the "Quran and Sunnah only" slogan of the past. They would have to tolerate the differences in the Madhab and between madhabs unlike the totalitarian cult sect of salafism. Moreover, its a victory for ahlus sunnah to get them to identify themsleves with the madhabs. What matters now is to hold tight to the rrighteous scholars and continue refuting their innovations they attempt from within the madhab.

This is nothing new and many Salafis follow madhahib and it is quite hypocritical for many of these "traditionalists" to talk about this when many of them don't even follow the madhahib they claim to follow. What is the daleel for for many of the shuyookh of the "traditionalists" congratulating the imams of kufr and tajseem like the Pope, "Merry Christmas", and some of these same shuyookh make tafseeq and takfeer of Ibn Taymiyyah or accuse him of being "extreme" in his tahreem of congratulating the kuffar on their kufri holidays? What is the daleel for preaching a "moderate Islaam" at the behest of the anti-Islamic British government like the so-called Radical Middle Way? Is this what masquerades as "traditionalism"?

umar_italy
09-05-2012, 04:06 PM
This is nothing new and many Salafis follow madhahib and it is quite hypocritical for many of these "traditionalists" to talk about this when many of them don't even follow the madhahib they claim to follow. What is the daleel for for many of the shuyookh of the "traditionalists" congratulating the imams of kufr and tajseem like the Pope, "Merry Christmas", and some of these same shuyookh make tafseeq and takfeer of Ibn Taymiyyah or accuse him of being "extreme" in his tahreem of congratulating the kuffar on their kufri holidays? What is the daleel for preaching a "moderate Islaam" at the behest of the anti-Islamic British government like the so-called Radical Middle Way? Is this what masquerades as "traditionalism"?

Spot on brother.
These "traditionalists" are a joke.

PeaceBeUponYou
10-05-2012, 05:17 PM
Does that mean all the Salah's I've prayed behind Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais and Al-Shuraim who are "injected with salafism" in Masjid al-Haram, are not going to be accounted for? Does this mean I am going to catch this "horrible plague of Salafism", as you are subtly making it out to be. There are worse issues clouding the Western air & I think scholar's like yourselves should get off your computer's and stop critisizing sects in Islam. I can't understand how you can all sit there and create divisions like this. Why? As a young Muslim, I find it difficult to comprehend why there are such sects and divisions. I have been brought up as a Muslim. And I shall die as a Muslim. Not as a "Hanafi" or "Deobandi" or "Athari" or "Murjiah" or "Alawi" or "Bektashi" or "Salafi". And InshaAllah I shall be proud to stand with Our Prophet (PBUH) on the day of resurrection, as a Muslim.

May Allah guide us & protect us all.
"...and hold fast to the rope of Allah and do not be divided." (Qur'an 3:103)"

tawlib
11-05-2012, 07:21 AM
Does that mean all the Salah's I've prayed behind Sheikh Abdul Rahman Al-Sudais and Al-Shuraim who are "injected with salafism" in Masjid al-Haram, are not going to be accounted for? Does this mean I am going to catch this "horrible plague of Salafism", as you are subtly making it out to be. There are worse issues clouding the Western air & I think scholar's like yourselves should get off your computer's and stop critisizing sects in Islam. I can't understand how you can all sit there and create divisions like this. Why? As a young Muslim, I find it difficult to comprehend why there are such sects and divisions. I have been brought up as a Muslim. And I shall die as a Muslim. Not as a "Hanafi" or "Deobandi" or "Athari" or "Murjiah" or "Alawi" or "Bektashi" or "Salafi". And InshaAllah I shall be proud to stand with Our Prophet (PBUH) on the day of resurrection, as a Muslim.

May Allah guide us & protect us all.
"...and hold fast to the rope of Allah and do not be divided." (Qur'an 3:103)"

Couldnt have said it better akhi!

The Fake Shaykh
11-05-2012, 10:59 AM
Couldnt have said it better akhi!

:salam:
Nice blog bro

admoumi
13-05-2012, 09:00 AM
Suspicion and Spying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMO71EVUiLM&sns=em

A reminder for some people on this forum.

Yes, that was the same Sh. Yahwer Baig some were attacking. Maybe a good time to remove your comments and apologise to those you have made false accusations and gheebah.


Allaah the Most High says:

“O you who believe! Avoid much suspicion, indeed some suspicions are sins. And spy not…” [Soorah Al-Hujuraat: 12]

This noble verse contains the command to avoid most suspicion, and informs us that some suspicions are sins. This verse also prohibits spying which is: searching for the faults of others, which only takes place after first suspecting someone of something bad. The Prophet (sal-Allaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) said:


“Beware of suspicion, for suspicion is the worst of false tales. And do not look for the faults of others, and do not spy, and do not be jealous of one another, and do not cut off relations with one another, and do not hate one another, and be, all of you, as fellow brothers and worshippers of Allaah.” [1]


The Leader of the Believers, ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattaab (radi-Allaahu ‘anhu) said:


“Do not assume anything but good about something that your brother in faith said, and try to find a good interpretation for what he said.” [2]

And Bakr Ibn ‘Abdullaah Al-Muzanee said:

“Beware of saying something that, even if you were right about it, you would not be rewarded for having said it. And if you were wrong about it you would be punished for having said it. This is (saying an) evil suspicion about your brother in faith.” [3]


Abu Nu’aym quoted Abu Qulaabah ‘Abdullaah Ibn Zaid Al-Jurmee as saying:


“If you hear something that you do not like about your brother, then try as hard as you can to find an excuse for him. If you cannot find an excuse for him then say to yourself: perhaps my brother has an excuse that I cannot think of.” [4]


Sufyaan Ibn Husayn said:


“I mentioned something bad about a man in the presence of Iyaas Ibn Mu’aawiyah who looked at me and said: ‘Have you fought against the Romans?’ I said: ‘No.’ He said: ‘What about Sind and India and Turkey?’ I said: ‘No.’ He said: ‘Rome, Sind, India, and Turkey are all safe from you but your Muslim brother is not safe from you?!’ Sufyaan Ibn Husayn said: ‘I never did that again.’” [5]

I said:

“What a great response from Iyaas Ibn Mu’aawiyah who was well known for his intelligence. That response is an example of his intelligence.”


Al-Imaam Abu Haatim Ibn Hibbaan Al-Bustee said in his book entitled Rawdat-ul-‘Uqalaa wa Nuzhat-ul-Fudalaa:


“It is obligatory upon the intelligent person not to search for the faults of others, and to busy himself with trying to correct his own faults. Verily, he who busies himself with his own faults rather than the faults of others will have peace of body and mind. Every time he realizes one of his own faults, the similar faults of his brother have less importance to him. However, he who busies himself with the faults of others instead of his own, tires himself out, and his heart becomes blind (to his own faults), and he begins to make excuses for not correcting his own faults.” [6]


Al-Imaam Ibn Hibbaan also said:


“Spying is one of the branches of hypocrisy, and thinking the best (of others) is one of the branches of faith. The intelligent person thinks the best of his brothers, and is personally concerned about the grievances and sorrows of his brother. However the ignorant person assumes the worst about his brothers and is unconcerned about the grievances and sorrows of his brother.” [7]

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 09:59 AM
http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/ResearchPaper.aspx?aid=416

Take a look at this one article, translated from Dr Fahd al-Oudah's book If'al wa la Haraj. This is on Damyal's Facebook.

In addition to our Deobandi/Hanafi Ulemas, Saudi Ulema have also refuted this book. Sh. Damyal feels it is suitable for his Facebook and for people to benefit from it.

He also produces this article: http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/Article.aspx?aid=423

It has been critiqued by Salafi shaikhs here: http://www.dorar.net/art/588

There's also a list of books that have done radd on it. You can read more about the radds of the Saudi ulemahs here: http://www.****************/vb/showthread.php?t=87579 (ahl alhadeeth.com)

This now begs the question : What is Damiel up to?
Much of the contents is contrary to the the Hanafi mazhab. My issue isn't that he's a Salafi and follows the Salafi way, my problem is with him setting up an organisation in Deobandi community and calling it Abu Hanifah Foundation. There is something wrong here.



It can't be a new garb of Salafism, because the brother studied in a country which since it's origination and it's very own founding fathers have followed a Madhab and have allowed others to follow one of the four Madhabs, as is quoted in the Fatawa of Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab and His son. It is nothing new that the scholars of this region of Saudi have been following a Madhab, however in following their Madhab they have also followed their version of Taqleed for the laymen, which is not the same as the one propagated on "Sunni"-forum. In fact, I would say that you can never find any one of the Muftis of the past or present telling people to leave their Madhab absolutely or not respecting differences in between the scholars. Just because there are some "Salafis" who propagate a false notion related Taqleed and Itba' and Madhahib, it doesn't make it the absolute correct stance. If you look at those scholars who talked about "Quran and Sunnah only" you will find most of them were not even Saudi to begin with.


Mawlana Shamli - I have to really question your methods in judging the Sheikh. If you seem to know so much about him, why don’t you speak to him directly rather than making accusations against him behind his back? Is this the character of an intellect?



Let me illustrate just one of the many flaws with your methods. You selected one article from the Islamic Studies website, (ironically forwarded by Sheikh `Abd Allah b. ash-Shaykh al-Mahfuz b. Bayyah, a Mauritanian scholar respected by scholars from all four schools and a teacher of Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and another article written by the Sheikh al-Bayyah himself) and use that as a basis to attack the Sheikh’s character.

Listen to what Sh. Hamza Yusuf says about Sh. Bin Bayyah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhi-6BEItpE

Just by reading the about us page, on the Islamic Studies website, it is clear that the website is primarily for scholars and students of knowledge so that they familiarize themselves with different views.

“This website is primarily for English speaking scholars, Imāms, and students with an interest in the field of Islamic Studies. Through this website, we hope to introduce academic writings of reputable Muslim scholars, as well as facilitating ways to reach them. We also aim to make available research papers in English on a variety of Islamic subjects and especially issues related to Muslim Minority Fiqh. The website will also contain fatāwas issued by major judicial assemblies and legislative commissions.”


Why can’t the Sheikh allude to research papers written by respected scholars on a variety of issue. Also do you know exactly what is the role of the Sheikh on that website?

Then you attack him for some of the faṭāwās on that website the majority of which are from the Islamic Fiqh Academy, with the vice president of the academy being Mufti Taqi Uthmani for many many years!!

Listen to what Mufti Taqi has to say about the Islamic Fiqh Academy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWvaHZ85nJQ

So now according to your reasoning, is Mufti Taqi Uthmani a deviant too?

Finally, again using your selective method and questionable methods, look at the books I found on the same website:

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=528

Differences of the Imam by Sheikh Muhammad Zakariyya Kandhlawi

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=530

The Legal Status of Following a Madhab by Mufti Taqi Uthmani

http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=527

Fiqh al-Imam: Key Proofs in Hanafi Fiqh by Sh. Abdur-Rahman b. Yusuf


http://islamicstudies.islammessage.com/EBook.aspx?bid=482


The Language of the Friday Khutbah by Mufti Taqi Uthmani

So what conclusions should we make about Sheikh Imtiyaz on the basis of these books? Especially when they tackle the most sensitive matter of Taqleed?

Even the previous comments of tawlib were completely disregarded and he had actually attended Sheikh Imtiyaz’s course over a period of two days dealing with the very issues of the Imams. Let me remind you of his words:

“The thing is, either you heard them speak against madhabs or you didn’t and I’m starting to get the feeling that you haven’t attended a course and you are basing your views on hearsay.

I actually attended the Chronicles of the shariah course by Imtiaz Damiel and not once was he disrespectful to Imaam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah alayh), Imaam Abu Yusuf (rahmatullah alayh) or Imaam Muhammad (rahmatullah alayh), and not once did he urge the students to leave their madhab, not even a subtle hint.

Furthermore, There were Hanafis , Shafies, Hanbalis and Maalikis at the course and I didn’t hear a single statement against any of the Madhabs or against any of the great Imaams.”

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84226-Al-Kauthar-Institute-Is-this-Salafi/page4


I think we should all fear Allah and remember that what we write about others could be a source of our punishment in the next life. If we have a problem with a brother try and address it with him directly rather than questioning his intentions, something which you are not privy to and painting everyone with the same brush.


Likewise, from what I know, Abu Hanifah Foundation, is run by local dedicated brothers, with the majority of teachers being alims and alimahs (graduates from Darul ulooms). If you want to know more about them, I would likewise suggest speaking to them directly rather than making unfounded allegations - this is the professional way.

http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/index.php/faqs

Look forward to your response.

Asslamo Allaikum Brothers,

Someone brought this thread to my attention to comment on what Br Shamli is saying and how the others have responded to him.

First and foremost I am not a Scholar so this comment should be taken as such and my post shouldn’t be reported on other forums as the “official stance of Sunniforum” :-) as my position on Taqleed and many things is vastly different to most Ulamah and laymen on SF.

Practise of British Ulamah:

In UK there are three (3) Ulamah whom I can report personally who make their stance and position very clear in front of laymen


Shaykh Akram Nadwi (HA): Shaykh disagrees with some Fatawa of Deobandi Ulamah and he makes it clear to his students not to confuse laymen.

Shaykh Awadullah (HA): Shaykh disagrees with some Fatawa of Deobandi Ulamah and clearly makes the distinction and says that this is what I know but many Ulamah of Deoband say this.

Shaykh Zahir Mahmood (HA): Many Salafi & Non-Hanafi Youth gravitate towards our noble Shaykh but he has NEVER hoodwinked anyone and everyone clearly knows that he is Deobandi & Hanafi.


Personal Experience & Practise:

In personal life I deal with Deobandees (all spectrums and variations) Salafees & Barelwees on a regular basis (through email, forums, phone, in person chats) and in teaching their children and I am asked all sorts and manners of questions on a regular basis despite repeating that I am not a Scholar.

I make my stance and position perfectly clear and ask Ulamah and give them Hanafi position and then tell them that this is what I would do but their Ulamah have said such and such. These issues arise with Salafi Muslimahs all the time whether they need a Mahram to get married etc and I POINT BLANK point them to a position of their Ulamah rather than the Hanafi opinion & I actually defend the position of their Ulamah (there are many eye witnesses to these events) and this is just one area as an example and I don’t want to list other areas of contentions for the sake of brevity. SF is also an example where someone has asked a question and I have repeatedly asked which Ulamah or Madhab the one asking the question follows before responding.

Issue of mutual goodness and co-operation:

We should all 100% work towards matters of common good and cooperate towards one another without compromising our stance or trying to wear a garb and should have the moral strength and conviction in our stance.

Ground Reality of UK Deobandees:

It is a fact (rightly and wrongly) that many of the British Deobandees are simple minded naive individuals who genuinely associate anything with the name of “Imam Abu Haneefa (RA))” with Deobandees and in this case they have chosen to trust their beloved children to the care of teachers who are very clearly neither fully Hanafi nor Deobandees.

You & I may agree or disagree with Taqleed Shaksi but this is the dominant stance of Deobandees of today and laymen have no clue about these matters and they are accustomed to following the Ulamah in this matter (traditionally) as that’s how they have lived and operated all their lives. By making an opposite stance you are disrupting the cycle (of Talqeed of Ulamah) and thus putting the Eemaan and practise of laymen at danger.

I don’t know Shaykh Damyal (HA) personally but I doubt that he is naive enough not to know what he is doing and the community and the circumstances in which he is operating in. I also have no axe to grind with him on his particular Aqeedah & Fiqh stance(s) and I may actually agree with a lot of what he to say. However I do believe that operating an organisation in a predominantly Deobandi community without making his stance fully and perfectly clear is a “form of deception” and I speak from experience as I also teach children and been doing it for over a decade. We make our stance and our curriculum clear and explain everything to the Parents; if the Salafi, Barelwee parents proceed to put their children in our School we regularly provide feedback and interact with them.

Al-Kauthar & Shaykh Damyal (HA) know very well what they are doing to naive people in the communities and these concerns cannot simply be dismissed.

Al-Kauthar Instructor and their presentation of Hanafi Madhab: I have been reliably informed by a trustworthy Brother and one of the Al-Kauthar instructors lectured on Salah (and he is apparently Hanafi) and in answer to a question about “Rafa-Yadain” he proceeded to formulate his response as such:


He gave a short reply on Rafa Yadain and the position of Hanafi Madhab

He then proceeded to list the merits and evidence of Rafa Yadain and elucidated the matter in great detail in explaining the other opinion and then concluded that if someone wants to perform Rafa Yadain that’s fine.



The disproportionate amount of time and attention he gave to the two (difference of opinions) was self evident and must have left an impression in the young hearts and minds as to which opinion is “heavy” and backed by evidence.

Discussing differences of opinion and evidence:

Who has given them a right to open a Pandora’s box of evidence in front of laymen who are neither sufficiently grounded in Usool nor can fathom or comprehend these evidences fully? They simply came to the Masjid to attend a talk on Salah, why not address the thousands of Muslims who are not praying why lead people and then and deliberately steer them into a blind alley about Rafa Yadain?

My personal beef with Al-Kauthar:

My personal beef with Al-Kauthar is not on Aqeedah or their stance on Taqleed rather on matters for which I will get banned and much more...

On the other hand, I have enormous respect and honour for Shaykh Shaykh Haitham al-Haddad (HA) and if he has disagreements on certain position with (Deobandi) Ulamah, so be it but he is M-A-N enough to state his position and stick to it and not change like the direction of the wind.

Way Forward:

The Maktab system in UK (and amongst Deobandees) is not faultless but it has protected the Eemaan of thousands of youngsters and continues to do so, no doubt much more need to be done to improve it and I have criticised it on many occasions (and got censored/banned for it) but in my mind what Shaykh Damyal (HA) is doing is a “form of deception” and he should openly clarify his stance (and I for one accept and understand the Salafi position on Taqleed) but don’t hoodwink innocent laymen into admitting their children in the name of “Imam Abu Haneefa (RA)).

I have carefully studied Al-Kauthar material and looked at their delivery and it isn’t rocket science! For example, over 10 years these ideas were discussed in detail with teachers of Shaykh (Mufti) Javed Iqbal (HA) on how to formulate and deliver these courses amongst others. Many Ulamah (on SF and otherwise) have been given detailed plans on how to conduct programs of this nature when Al-Kauthar wasn’t even on the British scene. Similarly the ideas about reformatting Taleemul Haq and other Fiqh manuals have also been presented in detail and you can use the search function.

In my opinion things should be practically done and demonstrated so people have an alternative.

Jazakullah Khairun

pluto
14-05-2012, 10:18 AM
Good to have you back brother Colonel_Hardstone :ws: :)

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 10:46 AM
Good to have you back brother Colonel_Hardstone :ws: :)

W-Salam,

Not back just commenting on a thread.

Rahmaniyyah
14-05-2012, 10:50 AM
:salam:

Mawlana Shamli raised questions which were necessary to raise in public. If AHF is inviting thousands from our community to their conferences, it means they have gained trust of the community, and have access to them. This is obviously a problem and a genuine question.

All the points about suspicion, asking him directly etc. is irrelevant/less-relevant, given their public work.

Further, I do wish to make contact with Sh Imtiyaz to see what his position is. If he says "I'm a Hanafi, but instruct in Al Kauthar" then that's alarming, and if he says "I'm Salafi, but run Abu Hanifah Foundation in the heart of the Deobandi community" then that's also alarming. So these questions ARE important. The foundation has marketed itself, and have invited masses of unsuspecting friends.

Finally, the points about the foundation being run by "local dedicated brothers" and "alim and alimahs" - every institute has sincere, dedicated non-'Ulama that do a lot of the leg-work, may Allah reward them. And the sad truth is, many of the 'Ulama coming out of our Madaris these days are confused (much to be said on this, but not here). Therefore, fresh graduates are no standard for us to go by.

I will be looking for a way to contact Sh Imtiyaz, but if anyone can help, please do so. We can then forward our questions directly

:jazak:

pluto
14-05-2012, 10:51 AM
W-Salam,

Not back just commenting on a thread.

Thora sa aasman hi sahi...
:ws:

admoumi
14-05-2012, 12:51 PM
:salam:

Mawlana Shamli raised questions which were necessary to raise in public. If AHF is inviting thousands from our community to their conferences, it means they have gained trust of the community, and have access to them. This is obviously a problem and a genuine question.

All the points about suspicion, asking him directly etc. is irrelevant/less-relevant, given their public work.

Further, I do wish to make contact with Sh Imtiyaz to see what his position is. If he says "I'm a Hanafi, but instruct in Al Kauthar" then that's alarming, and if he says "I'm Salafi, but run Abu Hanifah Foundation in the heart of the Deobandi community" then that's also alarming. So these questions ARE important. The foundation has marketed itself, and have invited masses of unsuspecting friends.

Finally, the points about the foundation being run by "local dedicated brothers" and "alim and alimahs" - every institute has sincere, dedicated non-'Ulama that do a lot of the leg-work, may Allah reward them. And the sad truth is, many of the 'Ulama coming out of our Madaris these days are confused (much to be said on this, but not here). Therefore, fresh graduates are no standard for us to go by.

I will be looking for a way to contact Sh Imtiyaz, but if anyone can help, please do so. We can then forward our questions directly

:jazak:

Clearly as non-scholars and people who know very little about the organisation, allot of assumptions are being made on this forum. Instead of making wild guesses, why dont you/others just ring the organisation and make an appointment to speak to the founder face to face - common sense if you ask me, and much more productive and good use of peoples time and energy. You can report back on your meeting and also point Sh. Imtiyaz to this forum and questions raised. You will be doing us all a favour.

By the way, can anyone tell me how long it takes for posts to be approved and available to other users? Seems like its instant.

Rahmaniyyah
14-05-2012, 01:09 PM
By the way, can anyone tell me how long it takes for posts to be approved and available to other users? Seems like its instant.

:salam:

Yes it is usually instant unless it's a new user in which case there are spam filters which prevent them from appearing usually if the new user has created a new thread, or makes a post with an external link in it.

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Clearly as non-scholars and people who know very little about the organisation, allot of assumptions are being made on this forum. Instead of making wild guesses, why dont you/others just ring the organisation and make an appointment to speak to the founder face to face - common sense if you ask me, and much more productive and good use of peoples time and energy. You can report back on your meeting and also point Sh. Imtiyaz to this forum and questions raised. You will be doing us all a favour.

By the way, can anyone tell me how long it takes for posts to be approved and available to other users? Seems like its instant.

:salam: Brother,

Your understanding of Shariah is incomplete. There has been no backbiting, slander, accusations made about Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA).

What is being discussed is in public domain and public knowledge. The stance of deobandees on Taqleed Shaksi, Tassawuff is well known and the stance of Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) on these issues is evident from his writings and site which has been given above.

The circumstances of laymen in the communities in which he is operating is also well known and their “naivety” is also known. Let Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) clearly articulate his stances about Taqleed/Tassawuff etc and then let people decide if they want to send their children to be educated by his institute or not.

This is about an individual and an organisation which has gained the trust of masses by not fully elaborating his stances on different matters which are crucial to the community in which he is operating. No one wants to force him to change his views or get into a lengthy debates, however it is moral and ethical to make his stance clear!

In addition, Br Rahmanniyah has alread offered what you are suggesting.

If Shaykh Damyal (HA) considers it permissible and appropriate to act and operate in this way then others deem it permissible and appropriate to highlight the sensitivity of this situation, so wheres the problem?

:jazak:

ImamGhazzaali
14-05-2012, 01:20 PM
Assalaamu 'alaykum,

He posts regularly on his FB:
https://www.facebook.com/imtiyaz.damiel

Please post here after contacting him.

admoumi
14-05-2012, 02:10 PM
:salam: Brother,

Your understanding of Shariah is incomplete. There has been no backbiting, slander, accusations made about Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA).

What is being discussed is in public domain and public knowledge. The stance of deobandees on Taqleed Shaksi, Tassawuff is well known and the stance of Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) on these issues is evident from his writings and site which has been given above.

The circumstances of laymen in the communities in which he is operating is also well known and their “naivety” is also known. Let Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) clearly articulate his stances about Taqleed/Tassawuff etc and then let people decide if they want to send their children to be educated by his institute or not.

This is about an individual and an organisation which has gained the trust of masses by not fully elaborating his stances on different matters which are crucial to the community in which he is operating. No one wants to force him to change his views or get into a lengthy debates, however it is moral and ethical to make his stance clear!

In addition, Br Rahmanniyah has alread offered what you are suggesting.

If Shaykh Damyal (HA) considers it permissible and appropriate to act and operate in this way then others deem it permissible and appropriate to highlight the sensitivity of this situation, so wheres the problem?

:jazak:

What I can't understand is, why don't you just contact Sh. Imtiyaz directly rather than posting on this forum and slicing and dicing his intentions? If a layman reads this thread, more than likely he will be left confused about the individual you are speaking about - surely this is wrong?

Also, we don't even know the identities of the people writing on this forum (including mine). Who is to say, they don't have an axe to grind or score to settle? Perhaps a disagreement on an issue?

Why don't the people who are making these accusations reveal their identity first - so we can have an honest and transparent debate?

How many people have actually spoken to Sh. Imtiyaz face to face and/or written to him? From what I've read, its all assumptions.How much do you know about him apart from what's on this forum? Iceberg situation?

People have already pointed out his facebook contact details - yet they continue to make statements on this public forum? What's the point? Is there something else we should all know? Sounds rather suspect to me.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

admoumi
14-05-2012, 02:17 PM
:salam: Brother,

Let Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) clearly articulate his stances about Taqleed/Tassawuff etc and then let people decide if they want to send their children to be educated by his institute or not.
:jazak:

From what I've read on the Abu Hanifah website, it seems they only have young children. What makes you think 5 year olds will be interested in Taqleed? Let alone comprehend.

Surely, the energy/time spent discussing the intentions of an individual is a frivolous pursuit? We should be spending our time on the millions going towards the fire of hell.

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 02:29 PM
What I can't understand is, why don't you just contact Sh. Imtiyaz directly rather than posting on this forum and slicing and dicing his intentions? If a layman reads this thread, more than likely he will be left confused about the individual you are speaking about - surely this is wrong?

Also, we don't even know the identities of the people writing on this forum (including mine). Who is to say, they don't have an axe to grind or score to settle? Perhaps a disagreement on an issue?

Why don't the people who are making these accusations reveal their identity first - so we can have an honest and transparent debate?

How many people have actually spoken to Sh. Imtiyaz face to face and/or written to him? From what I've read, its all assumptions.How much do you know about him apart from what's on this forum? Iceberg situation?

People have already pointed out his facebook contact details - yet they continue to make statements on this public forum? What's the point? Is there something else we should all know? Sounds rather suspect to me.

May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

:salam: All,

Indeed, May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

The simple point which you are not understanding is that this is a PUBLIC forum and I am discussing a PUBLIC issue with information which is in the PUBLIC domain.

No private information has been pulled out of my back-pocket, no slander has been made. In the last 20+ years I have seen Madkhali Dawah come and go (actually take a massive nosedive) while classical Islam passed down through the chain of Ulamah to have survived all the upheavals and all the tactics (clean and dirty) used against it and millions of Dollars spent to try to kill it! There is a reason why Allah (SWT) has given firm steadfastness to the Madhab of Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) and other people come and go like the wind blows.

Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) or anyone associated with his institue is reading this and can come and clarify their position & their stance here as well as on their site and publicise it in their community and then let people make up their mind.

I am not a little child who doesn’t know the purpose behind naming an institute “Abu Hanifa foundation” in one of the most populated Deobandi/Hanafi/Maturidi localities in United Kingdom, unfortunately I am also aware of the community and their naivety and innocence which is being picked on.

You have made your point clear and others have also pointed out his facebook page.

:jazak:


From what I've read on the Abu Hanifah website, it seems they only have young children. What makes you think 5 year olds will be interested in Taqleed? Let alone comprehend.

Surely, the energy/time spent discussing the intentions of an individual is a frivolous pursuit? We should be spending our time on the millions going towards the fire of hell.

:ws:

Again, your attempts at oversimplification are childish at best. These 5 year olds are being admitted by their Parents (who have an Islamic, moral and legal) responsibility for their upbringing and “many” are doing it out of naivety.

In addition, these 5 year old will grow up tomorrow with the thoughts of their teachers which their parents may or may not wish for their children.

So the bottom line is for Shaykh Imtiaz Damyal (HA) to make his stance and position on issues which are important to Deobandees and then let the community decide. There is absolutely no problem with his methodology or what he has learned from his teachers but there is a problem with him not making these matters public to Parents!

The trust of the community is being earned by being partially truthful at best. Same for Al-Kauthar institute’s Hanafi Fiqh courses etc.

Understand my argument and then we can discuss further instead of trivialising the issue. What is trivial to you may not be trivial to many others and if you have the right to deem it trivial others have a similar right to deem it enormous.

:jazak:

P.S: If you are associated with the noble Shaykh (HA) send a link to this thread and let him address it.

Abu Zakariya Yahya
14-05-2012, 02:49 PM
:salam:

Can someone put a bulletin list of the exact questions that they Have for him, and I will contact him with them directly and see what he thinks.

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 03:01 PM
:salam:

Can someone put a bulletin list of the exact questions that they Have for him, and I will contact him with them directly and see what he thinks.

:ws:

For starters three questions from what I have been informed are the bone of contention.


The overwhelming majority of Deobandi Scholars and laymen adhere to Ashari/Maturidi Schools and the text taught in most Maktabs (to children) i.e. Tasheel series also by and large sticks to this. What’s the noble Shaykh (HA) stance and explaination on the matter?
The overwhelming majority of Deobandi Scholars and laymen adhere to Taqleed Shaksi and the text taught in most Maktabs (to children) i.e. Tasheel series also by and large sticks to this. What’s the noble Shaykh (HA) stance on the matter?
The overwhelming majority of Deobandi Scholars and laymen support Tassawuff and Ba'yah in one of the Silsalas of Tassawuff and the curriculum in most Maktabs (to children) i.e. Tasheel series also by and large sticks to this (with stories in the text of Auliya Allah and Karamaat etc). What’s the noble Shaykh (HA) stance on the matter?


All I am saying personally is that he should make his stance clear and there is no problem with him holding the view he holds; just make that clear in the community.

:jazak:

admoumi
14-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Brother Abu Zakariya, please make sure its a face to face appointment with Abu Hanifah. Look forward to hearing back from you guys.

And Colonel, why don't you make contact via facebook with Sh. Imtiyaz as well? (assuming from one of the comments you are out of the country - I could be wrong). And let us know how you get on.

admoumi
14-05-2012, 03:43 PM
In the mean time, it would be good to know the identities of some of the scholars/brothers interested in this thread - we could all go down to Abu Hanifah and discuss this openly with Sh. Imtiyaz.

Colonel_Hardstone
14-05-2012, 03:49 PM
In the mean time, it would be good to know the identities of some of the scholars/brothers interested in this thread - we could all go down to Abu Hanifah and discuss this openly with Sh. Imtiyaz.

I have been invited to Iraq and some brothers have told me that I will be a Guest but too busy at the moment. In addition I don't believe that I can engage the dead in a conversation you got me confused with some other kind of folks, brother.

Rahmaniyyah
14-05-2012, 03:57 PM
:salam:

Can someone put a bulletin list of the exact questions that they Have for him, and I will contact him with them directly and see what he thinks.

:salam:

I sent you an email.

Many people don't use facebook.

:ws:

Sulaiman84
14-05-2012, 04:05 PM
:salam:

When reading throughout this thread, I thought about how Ibn Al-Izz Al-Hanafi's sharh of aqeedah tahawiyyah was promoted as if it represented the madhhab whereas amongst the ahnaaf, it's not relied upon.

History repeats itself in different ways and in different shades...

Dawud Israel
14-05-2012, 07:48 PM
I think you guys are grossly distorting and framing this all wrong. Let me share my experience.

Al-Kauthar and AlMaghrib are a lot like the MSAs/Isocs in that they are a gateway to becoming more practicing, much like Tableeghi jamaat. They are NOT for serious students, and so most discussions about aqeedah/madhab/fiqh texts etc is not studied, or if studied, not taken seriously. They are 'motivational' largely, and provide a place for youth to make Muslim friends - that is their main benefit and why they are so popular. Its not easy for youth to make friends while going on Tableeghi Jamaat, and the colourful, business-savvy format of AK/AM appeals to Western Muslims. They can't be put in the same category as Saudi Salafis, since they are more tame and soft-spoken, and they do have associations with traditionally trained scholars.

Some AlMaghrib students go on to study traditional Islam, and they don't break off and change themselves as being Hanafi or Shafi'i. But most Muslims will never get that serious and for them, they can find a community in these institutes to keep their Islam strong. They may teach some stuff that criticizes Ashari creed, but I remember sitting there and watching brothers sleep through it or not pay attention. Most Muslims don't care for these things, so don't think they will come out indoctrinated. Its not Madeenah university; its a weekend program.

Again, its not to be taken as seriously as, "They do this..." or "They believe this..." because their teachers are diverse and are not all the same. So its not a program for already practicing students of knowledge, who can probably find more educational programs to attend, rather its a program for Muslims who aren't that practicing and more of a stepping stone.

I understand the problems caused by the Salafi movement have made people be on guard, and it is good to be on guard but that doesn't mean we distort things. I wouldn't advise the more learned SF members not to go to AlKauthar Institute, but if I know a brother who clubs, dances, drinks, has a girlfriend, and is distant from Islam, and if he wanted to check out AlKauthar or AlMaghrib- I would urge him to attend and tell him about how awesome it is.

Dawud Israel
14-05-2012, 08:02 PM
Another point, just because someone quotes Imam Abu Hanifa that doesn't necessarily make them Hanafi. If a Salafi quotes Imam Ghazali that doesn't make them Sufi. These terms and the way we think of them as mutually exclusive is a new thing.

This is a lot like the ayat about how the Jews/Christian claimed Ibrahim alayhi salam was a Jew or a Christian even though the Torah/Injil was revealed after him.

Dawud Israel
14-05-2012, 08:32 PM
Also a BIG difference is that AlKauthar has an amal side to their teaching, they have their students create charitable projects to put what they learn into practice. This is one reason why AlKauthar has an edge over AlMaghrib and other organizations, because they do more than just preach. I am not sure how successful their charitable projects have been however.
http://www.mercymissionworld.org/

afriki_haqq
15-05-2012, 08:10 AM
:salam:

Interesting comments and discussions.

However, since this thread has brought forth facts I will continue to do so and this time some interesting posts by someone already discussed before on the thread, see here (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84226-Al-Kauthar-Institute-Is-this-Salafi&p=731402&highlight=mohammed+wadee#post731402)and here (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84226-Al-Kauthar-Institute-Is-this-Salafi&p=731499&highlight=mohammed+wadee#post731499)and here (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?84226-Al-Kauthar-Institute-Is-this-Salafi&p=739993&highlight=mohammed+wadee#post739993), Mohammed Wadee (www.facebook.com/alwadi) or also known as Hafidh al-Wadi of the embassy of Saudi Arabia in Pretoria, SA.

On the 5th of May, Wadee says:


A 'Strangers' show in Pretoria. Was supposed to start at 6:30. Still waiting!!! Even worst, the pre opening was the singing of qasidah burda which contains verses of shirk! Bad start really. Should I rather leave?

Suffice to say, he didn't leave and actually enjoyed the music pop show as his comments go on to show, he actually encourages others to attend future such shows. So much for showing disdain against the Qasidah!!! Allahul musta'an! The same clown who warns people from attending the 'ijtimah or some spiritual program or to go out in the path of Allah. :hawla:

Yesterday, 14th May, the pseudo-Shaykh takes a snipe at the Hanafi madhab. He quotes a hadith from Ibn Majah about Nabi :saw: telling Hadhrat Aa'ishah :anha:that he would make her ghusal and her dress her in her kafn and perform salaah over her and bury her if she where to pass away before him. He goes on to say:


Although the Hanafi Mathab says it is not permissible, the majority of scholars, including the other 3 Mataahib, view otherwise. There is no doubt that the permissibilty is based on the strongest opinion and evidence.

On the same day he goes on to copy another post with the common quotes from Imam al-A'zam Abu Hanifa :rahim: which is: "When a hadith is found to be sahih, then that is my madhab." and other such similar quotes. Al-Wadi goes on to say when asked if this statement of the Imam was meant for the laymen or the scholars:


I rather ask: what about the hanafi scholars that refuse to heed his advice?


There is a whole wealth of insights on his Facebook page (www.facebook.com/alwadi) clearly painting a picture of his disdain to the Hanafi madhab and those who are from the Deobandi school more specifically. His hatred and the ghuluw of his hatred can very nearly be compared to that of another online anti-Hanafi-Deobandi activist.

Mohammed Wadee is also a proud supporter and promoter of al-Kauthar and their activities in South Africa and elsewhere. This is well known. After all, he has been tasked with the assignment to bring Salafism to these shores by his masters in the religious attaché of the embassy.

:ws:

Colonel_Hardstone
15-05-2012, 10:08 AM
I think you guys are grossly distorting and framing this all wrong. Let me share my experience.

Al-Kauthar and AlMaghrib are a lot like the MSAs/Isocs in that they are a gateway to becoming more practicing, much like Tableeghi jamaat. They are NOT for serious students, and so most discussions about aqeedah/madhab/fiqh texts etc is not studied, or if studied, not taken seriously. They are 'motivational' largely, and provide a place for youth to make Muslim friends - that is their main benefit and why they are so popular. Its not easy for youth to make friends while going on Tableeghi Jamaat, and the colourful, business-savvy format of AK/AM appeals to Western Muslims. They can't be put in the same category as Saudi Salafis, since they are more tame and soft-spoken, and they do have associations with traditionally trained scholars.

Some AlMaghrib students go on to study traditional Islam, and they don't break off and change themselves as being Hanafi or Shafi'i. But most Muslims will never get that serious and for them, they can find a community in these institutes to keep their Islam strong. They may teach some stuff that criticizes Ashari creed, but I remember sitting there and watching brothers sleep through it or not pay attention. Most Muslims don't care for these things, so don't think they will come out indoctrinated. Its not Madeenah university; its a weekend program.

Again, its not to be taken as seriously as, "They do this..." or "They believe this..." because their teachers are diverse and are not all the same. So its not a program for already practicing students of knowledge, who can probably find more educational programs to attend, rather its a program for Muslims who aren't that practicing and more of a stepping stone.

I understand the problems caused by the Salafi movement have made people be on guard, and it is good to be on guard but that doesn't mean we distort things. I wouldn't advise the more learned SF members not to go to AlKauthar Institute, but if I know a brother who clubs, dances, drinks, has a girlfriend, and is distant from Islam, and if he wanted to check out AlKauthar or AlMaghrib- I would urge him to attend and tell him about how awesome it is.

Also a BIG difference is that AlKauthar has an amal side to their teaching, they have their students create charitable projects to put what they learn into practice. This is one reason why AlKauthar has an edge over AlMaghrib and other organizations, because they do more than just preach. I am not sure how successful their charitable projects have been however.
http://www.mercymissionworld.org/

:salam: Brother,

Shaykh Ahmed Ali (HA), Ummah Welfare, Iqra International and most other Deobandi Ulamah have serious and extensive links with charity causes and projects across Europe (Balkans included) and back in Asia and were instrumental in provided support in Tsunami and Earth-quake areas. So in terms of charity contributions and projects Al-Maghrib is dwarfed by Deobandees but that’s neither here or there because reward is with Allah (SWT), Insha’Allah.They don't make a song and dance about it and are pretty bad at marketing. Hundreds and thousands of pounds worth Zakat and Sadaqah money gets collected, managed and invested by Doebandees but you hardly ever hear about it!

The issue at heart is the understanding of the “laymen” and the Muslim community of Blackburn and they (rightly or wrongly) associate Imam Abu Haneefa (RA) with the Deobandi understanding of Taqleed, Madhabs etc and that’s what got Maulana Shamli concerned as a Scholar (and others) and rightly so because an individual is able to gain the trust of the community in this way without making his stance/position clear. Furthermore this isn’t a flash in the pan weekend course but a Madrasa on the ground.

Shaykh Imtiaz Damiel (HA) or whoever has deliberately and wilfully named an institute as such in a community full of people who are Muqallids so it isn’t an accident.

The brothers here are missing another fundamental point which is that if Shaykh Imtiaz Damiel (HA) as a Scholar has the right to devise his strategy to best serve the Deen of Allah (SWT) then Shaykh Shamli (HA) has the right as a Scholar to object to this strategy if he deems it to be a Fitnah and that’s precisely what he has done.

For the record (and for the 2nd time) Shaykh Shamli didn’t bring this to my attention it was someone else who asked about it.

There is no Deobandi Mosque, institute or organisation in UK which tries to attract “converts” to cause under a different garb but it has become a norm for these “Pseudo-Salafees” to adopt an identity and pose as something which they are not (as far as the overwhelming majority of Deobandees are concerned). Salafi Dawah at its heart has the strategy to win “converts” to its cause while the Deobandees don’t have this in their framework, rather they have a very compromising attitude and go out f their way to affirm more Muslims to be within the folds of Ahlus-Sunnah Wal-Jamaah. The following Aqeedah article by Shaykh (Mufti) Taqi Usmani (HA) clearly demonstrates this approach, it is clear that he is extending boundaries and stretching as far as he can to accommodate as many groups as he can. (http://www.deoband.org/2010/04/hadith/hadith-commentary/the-issue-of-the-ambiguous-attributes-of-allah/) A Salafi approach would be:


This is the right way
This is the evidence
This is the refutation of all other evidence
So everybody else is wrong
Join us to be saved


My close to 10,000 posts are evident that I do have certain problems with the why Deobandi institutes are run and I do believe that they need to adopt a professional approach and need to be managed better. HOWEVER, on this occasion I do believe that the approach of Al-Maghrib and others is a form of deception when they are claiming to be “Hanafees” and penetrating communities which are naive and trusting and relying on good will of these communities. I was just speaking to a father 2 nights ago after Maghrib and his son is studying at a Deobandi Darul-uloom and it was clear how naive his outlook on life is and his son is also very naive in his outlook. I have a thread on Shaykh Hasan Tai (HA) on this forum and when you meet and talk to me DESPITE being a giant of Hadeeth you will notice you naive, innocent (almost child like) and trusting he actually is! These traits run through almost all of the Deobandi Mashaykh whom I have met in my life.

Most Deobandees (rightly or wrongly) are not politically inclined and indeed very trusting.

:jazak:

P.S: I have been banned, censored, kicked out, boycotted for criticising Deobandi institutes and I won’t change but on this issue Shaykh Shamli (HA) has legitimate and genuine concerns.

Jadeed
15-05-2012, 10:14 AM
:salam:

Br Colonel_Hardstone, your posts are quite interesting. I have just one question:


HOWEVER, on this occasion I do believe that the approach of Al-Maghrib and others is a form of deception when they are claiming to be “Hanafees” and penetrating communities which are naive and trusting and relying on good will of these communities

So are they not Hanafis because they are not on the Deobandi Maslak, or by this do you mean that their presentation leads people to assume they areon aforementioned maslak and you were just using 'Hanafis' as a stand-in for that? The latter interpretation seems more likely but I just wanted a bit of clarification, :jazak:.

Colonel_Hardstone
15-05-2012, 10:22 AM
:salam:

Br Colonel_Hardstone, your posts are quite interesting. I have just one question:



So are they not Hanafis because they are not on the Deobandi Maslak, or by this do you mean that their presentation leads people to assume they areon aforementioned maslak and you were just using 'Hanafis' as a stand-in for that? The latter interpretation seems more likely but I just wanted a bit of clarification, :jazak:.

:ws: my Brother,


Deobandi Ulamah by and large support Taqleed Shaksi
Barelwee Ulamah by and large support Taqleed Shaksi
Amongst "other" Hanafi Ulamah I have also come across many who also support Taqleed Shaksi
Overhwleming majority of Hanafees support and approve Tassawuff
Most importantly I have come acorss a really tiny minority of Hanafees who are not Asharees/Maturidees!


Whether it is the original position of the Madhab or correct position is another discussion altogether and you can use the search function.

We are where we are.

Al-Maghrib/Al-Kauthar don't conform to these positions at all and not only that all claim that their approach is “the classical position” so in effect they claim that what has been handed down through the legacy (chain) of Scholars is FALSE.

Again, this thread is not to discuss who is right and who is right (different subject) BUT to laymen because they are used to a certain approach they are trusting of anyone who uses the name of Imam Al-Adham Abu Haneefa (RA), His Madhab and His legacy.

That’s the point.

:jazak:

P.S: If you were to search through my thousands of posts you will see that I disagree with many of these positions myself, HOWEVER I don’t adopt a different garb to try to infiltrate communities and gain trust. My position is what it is. Importantly, I am not judging who’s right and who’s wrong rather implying that people should make their positions clear (or as clear as they can).

admoumi
16-05-2012, 02:38 PM
...then Shaykh Shamli (HA) has the right as a Scholar to object to this strategy if he deems it to be a Fitnah and that’s precisely what he has done.

For the record (and for the 2nd time) Shaykh Shamli didn’t bring this to my attention it was someone else who asked about it.

.

So, has Moulana Shamli (identity no one knows as he prefers to hide behind an alias) made contact with the Shaykh Imtiyaz and raised his concerns privately? Or has he just come on SF, made lots of public claims True/False - yet to be determined, and made the average lay visitor even more confused?

Two questions for you Colonel:

1. How would you feel if someone starts making accusations about you in public, rather than approaching you in private, regardless of its authenticity?

2. You claim not to be a scholar, so what makes you an authority on this subject?

Look forward to your response.

Colonel_Hardstone
16-05-2012, 05:03 PM
:salam: Colonel sb,
Why did you delete This This stuff (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?21759-Detailed-discussions-(evidence)-on-Aqeedah-Tassawuuf-Taqleed-amp-common-Fiqh-issues&p=189165#post189165)? it was very informative and benificial. And its link is still in your signature

:salam: Brother,

I don't have time to participate on this forum so don't have time to maintain all the old links.


So, has Moulana Shamli (identity no one knows as he prefers to hide behind an alias) made contact with the Shaykh Imtiyaz and raised his concerns privately? Or has he just come on SF, made lots of public claims True/False - yet to be determined, and made the average lay visitor even more confused?

Two questions for you Colonel:

1. How would you feel if someone starts making accusations about you in public, rather than approaching you in private, regardless of its authenticity?

2. You claim not to be a scholar, so what makes you an authority on this subject?

Look forward to your response.

:salam:

Lets try this again the thrid time in simpler English.

This is a PUBLIC forum with rules and regulations and there are thousands of members using Aliases and there is nothing wrong with that.

By virtue of it being a PUBLIC forum, Shaykh or anyone else has the right to discuss issues which are in PUBLIC domain. The forum has rules that if you find something offensive or contrary to Sunnah, you can report the post and you can exercise that right and let the Administrators/Moderators decide.

By virtue of being a PUBLIC forum, everyone has the right to air their concern on PUBLIC matters, Shaykh has, I have, you have.

If you can SHOW one line where I have claimed authority on any subject let alone this one; it will be much appreciated, in fact my words are in absolute contrast to what you are claiming and here is a direct quote.


Asslamo Allaikum Brothers,

Someone brought this thread to my attention to comment on what Br Shamli is saying and how the others have responded to him.

First and foremost I am not a Scholar so this comment should be taken as such and my post shouldn’t be reported on other forums as the “official stance of Sunniforum” :-) as my position on Taqleed and many things is vastly different to most Ulamah and laymen on SF.

Jazakullah Khairun

You are very clearly disagreeing with me in PUBLIC and everyone can read and follow and although I am disagreeing with you I have neither raised any objections nor questioned your expertise or right to address me.

I have made my points, coherently, constructively and in a lucid manner and not made any accusations towards the noble Shaykh Damyal (HA), rather asked some pertinent questions that’s all.

:jazak:

P.S: I think that its about time that you change your tactics and address issues instead of repeating the same failed rhetoric again and again and again.

admoumi
18-05-2012, 09:27 AM
Anyone been in touch with Abu Hanifah yet? It has been almost two weeks. Or is that not the protocol on this forum? Talk publicly behind an online identity and leave the fact finding to others?

afriki_haqq
18-05-2012, 09:33 AM
Anyone been in touch with Abu Hanifah yet? It has been almost two weeks. Or is that not the protocol on this forum? Talk publicly behind an online identity and leave the fact finding to others?

:salam:

Since you have so much of concern for the Abu Hanifah Foundation (and not as you incorrectly write al-Imam al-A'zam Abu Hanifah an-Nu'man :rahim:) why don't you bring this thread to the attention of those affiliated with the foundation such as the founder, the Shaykh Damiyal, to once and for all squash all these allegations, etc. on the thread. It would be beneficial to a) this thread b) the readers of this thread/forum c) the AHF d) the Blackburn community and e) all those other interested parties.

:ws:

samy.3660
18-05-2012, 09:53 AM
Assalamu Alaikum,
I have been to their lecture ones and what did i feel and saw is being reported in my post.
1. 1st thing first the lectured has huge charges like some business type seminar, i think we have paid around Rs. 500/- on student quota, not sure though its almost 3 to 4 years now.
2. The audience were generally Ahle-Hadith, and questions asked by the audience conformed it.
3. The lecturer didn't wore in any cap.
4. He explained what 4 imams thought on the subject.
5. We were given book on the subject.
6. It was a full day lecture, did not include lunch but they provided with snacks.
7. I ended up asking that shaykh on that day, that if somebody followed an Imam than which ruling he should follow, he said than he should follow that Imam.

All of it said above is my experience.
And Allaah knows best

NeednoName
18-05-2012, 10:00 AM
Assalamu Alaikum,
I have been to their lecture ones and what did i feel and saw is being reported in my post.
1. 1st thing first the lectured has huge charges like some business type seminar, i think we have paid around Rs. 500/- on student quota, not sure though its almost 3 to 4 years now.
2. The audience were generally Ahle-Hadith, and questions asked by the audience conformed it.
3. The lecturer didn't wore in any cap.
4. He explained what 4 imams thought on the subject.
5. We were given book on the subject.
6. It was a full day lecture, did not include lunch but they provided with snacks.

All of it said above is my experience.
And Allaah knows best

Waaleykum'assalaam!

Aah! I feel sad for the 6th point. How could they even do that?

pluto
18-05-2012, 10:09 AM
Okay, I wanted to actually tell this about in the brother's forums, but I'll say it anyway:

My cousin became a ghayr muqallid attending such lectures (don't know it was Al-Kauthar, but will recheck, although it was one of those paid seminars), he even invited me once, about one a half years back but Allah SWT saved me, He's saved me from many such attacks :jazak:

But do I give a damn that he became a gm? Not at all. My life goes on, there are others I worry about.
Full story [its funny actually] regarding this in bros forums.
One set of cousins have become gm while another set who were nearly there or were on the edge have become madhabis :alhamd:
:ws:

samy.3660
18-05-2012, 10:49 AM
Waaleykum'assalaam!

Aah! I feel sad for the 6th point. How could they even do that?

Yes, we had to go a restaurant nearby, in tabligh it is great we end up eating on a big dish, for just 10 rupee coupon or free.


Okay, I wanted to actually tell this about in the brother's forums, but I'll say it anyway:

My cousin became a ghayr muqallid attending such lectures (don't know it was Al-Kauthar, but will recheck, although it was one of those paid seminars), he even invited me once, about one a half years back but Allah SWT saved me, He's saved me from many such attacks :jazak:

But do I give a damn that he became a gm? Not at all. My life goes on, there are others I worry about.
Full story [its funny actually] regarding this in bros forums.
One set of cousins have become gm while another set who were nearly there or were on the edge have become madhabis :alhamd:
:ws:

Yeah i too was inclined towards ahle-hadith but then Allaah opened my heart to tabligh.Alhumdullillaah.

I missed a point there
7. I ended up asking that shaykh on that day, that if somebody followed an Imam than which ruling he should follow, he said than he should follow that Imam.

admoumi
18-05-2012, 11:04 AM
Brother Abu Zakariya Yahya, have you managed to compile a list and make an appointment with Abu Hanifah yet? Or still waiting on others to send you questions?

pluto
18-05-2012, 11:16 AM
Yes, we had to go a restaurant nearby, in tabligh it is great we end up eating on a big dish, for just 10 rupee coupon or free.



Yeah i too was inclined towards ahle-hadith but then Allaah opened my heart to tabligh.Alhumdullillaah.

I missed a point there
7. I ended up asking that shaykh on that day, that if somebody followed an Imam than which ruling he should follow, he said than he should follow that Imam.

indeed, tabligh=blessing

afriki_haqq
18-05-2012, 12:59 PM
Brother Abu Zakariya Yahya, have you managed to compile a list and make an appointment with Abu Hanifah yet? Or still waiting on others to send you questions?

:salam:

I hereby note the following observations about this discussion:

This is my own personal observations and I may be wrong and incorrect.

Brother admouni it is indeed strange that I observe that in these 12 posts that you have made so far, hardly have you employed the Islamic greeting.

You said that assumptions are being made, wild guesses taken, etc yet upto now you have not been able to answer any points whilst you constantly harp on about the identity of Shaykh Shamli. I find that extremely odd and strange! After all it was Shaykh Shamli who initiated this discussion about the ideology of al-Kauthar and which has now shifted to the Abu Hanifah Foundation. Why so much of questioning about personalities instead of focussing on the issues. It's odd and this character hiding behind "admouni" might actually be someone affiliated with the Abu Hanifah Foundation or al-Kauthar or maybe both! And it now seems he is trying to uncover the identity of Shaykh Shamli so as to exert some sort of retaliation! Allahu'alam....

Brother admouni also constantly refers to Abu Hanifah:


From what I've read on the Abu Hanifah website, it seems they only have young children. What makes you think 5 year olds will be interested in Taqleed? Let alone comprehend.



Brother Abu Zakariya, please make sure its a face to face appointment with Abu Hanifah. Look forward to hearing back from you guys.


Ya Allah! al-Imam al-A'zam is his in grave in Baghdad and you are asking the brother AZ Yahya to make a face to face appointment!!!


In the mean time, it would be good to know the identities of some of the scholars/brothers interested in this thread - we could all go down to Abu Hanifah and discuss this openly with Sh. Imtiyaz.


Anyone been in touch with Abu Hanifah yet? It has been almost two weeks. Or is that not the protocol on this forum? Talk publicly behind an online identity and leave the fact finding to others?

And this is a reply to one of the above:


I have been invited to Iraq and some brothers have told me that I will be a Guest but too busy at the moment. In addition I don't believe that I can engage the dead in a conversation you got me confused with some other kind of folks, brother.

Brother admouni, based on this alone, I don't think anyone should take you seriously based on this. You have proven time after time after time to get this very basic wrong! There is a difference as big as hell and paradise between the Abu Hanifah Foundation (http://www.abuhanifahfoundation.org/) and al-Imam al-A'zam Abu Hanifah :rahim:
(http://notesonalimamalazam.wordpress.com/)

------------------

I also remind you, and all other readers, of this post by brother Rahmaniyyah:


:salam:

Mawlana Shamli raised questions which were necessary to raise in public. If AHF is inviting thousands from our community to their conferences, it means they have gained trust of the community, and have access to them. This is obviously a problem and a genuine question.

All the points about suspicion, asking him directly etc. is irrelevant/less-relevant, given their public work.

Further, I do wish to make contact with Sh Imtiyaz to see what his position is. If he says "I'm a Hanafi, but instruct in Al Kauthar" then that's alarming, and if he says "I'm Salafi, but run Abu Hanifah Foundation in the heart of the Deobandi community" then that's also alarming. So these questions ARE important. The foundation has marketed itself, and have invited masses of unsuspecting friends.

Finally, the points about the foundation being run by "local dedicated brothers" and "alim and alimahs" - every institute has sincere, dedicated non-'Ulama that do a lot of the leg-work, may Allah reward them. And the sad truth is, many of the 'Ulama coming out of our Madaris these days are confused (much to be said on this, but not here). Therefore, fresh graduates are no standard for us to go by.

:jazak:

So far, you have not replied in a constructive way to the many points raised whilst you go on harping about "Abu Hanifah" and the indentity of Shaykh Shamli!

I challenge you: Come out with your true and real identity on this forum! Until then none should take anything you say seriously!

:jazak:
:ws:

AbuFatimah
18-05-2012, 01:40 PM
Yes, we had to go a restaurant nearby, in tabligh it is great we end up eating on a big dish, for just 10 rupee coupon or free.



Yeah i too was inclined towards ahle-hadith but then Allaah opened my heart to tabligh.Alhumdullillaah.

I missed a point there
7. I ended up asking that shaykh on that day, that if somebody followed an Imam than which ruling he should follow, he said than he should follow that Imam.

Im a ghair muqalid and Allah opened up my herat to tabligh too. Last time I checked, tablighee's dont get involved in these waste of time interfactional arguements when we have so many muslims who dont pray or fill up brothels or are closet atheists or are running grooming gangs or human traficking etc.

As a revert, nothing has done my head in more than these petty arguements. One of the things I actually like about al kauthar is they spend very little time on sectarian issues, its mostly focused on charity work, dawah, ilm, and other beneficial things. Their lectures are full of great imaan boosting reminders

also al kauthar and al maghrib are always stressing that if someone follows a madhab or not its tehir choice and doesnt make them ahlal bid'ah and we shouldnt get into disputes over such issues. ive personally heard this from them countless times. I think those muslims who are bringing people together are worth my time far more than those who wish for division over issues of semantics

tawlib
18-05-2012, 02:13 PM
:salam:
Brother admouni also constantly refers to Abu Hanifah:
Ya Allah! al-Imam al-A'zam is his in grave in Baghdad and you are asking the brother AZ Yahya to make a face to face appointment!!!

This is quite childish. Any person who has been following this thread (who is sane of mind, and I think that you are indeed sane) knows that the brother is referring to the foundation and not our great Imaam rahmatullah alayh.




I challenge you: Come out with your true and real identity on this forum! Until then none should take anything you say seriously!
:jazak:
:ws:
How ironic that you put forward a challenge which you will not personally fulfil?
“If you want people to free a slave, you need to show them with action, not words.”
Why don’t you reveal your true identity, so the brother can take you seriously?

admoumi
21-05-2012, 01:37 PM
Asmoak,

Can someone please advice, who is the moderator on this forum?

Jkl

At Tayyib
29-05-2012, 09:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=956fo849QXY

Abu_Uzair
29-05-2012, 10:19 AM
i got an invitation of new alkauther of india event in mumbai
bilal ismail is teacher but i refused

The Fake Shaykh
29-05-2012, 10:24 AM
i got an invitation of new alkauther of india event in mumbai
bilal ismail is teacher but i refused

Bilal Ismail, the one who is from a "deobandi-tabligee" background!

Only thing they left out that he is bayat with shaykh xyz and has got khilafat from him, that should definitely do the trick of swaying the deo-tj-tasawuf crowd....

I think al-kauthar missed a trick:lol:

Abu_Uzair
29-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Bilal Ismail, the one who is from a "deobandi-tabligee" background!

Only thing they left out that he is bayat with shaykh xyz and has got khilafat from him, that should definitely do the trick of swaying the deo-tj-tasawuf crowd....

I think al-kauthar missed a trick:lol:his native land is near to my village and i met him 2 years ago

SASLAMS
29-05-2012, 11:02 AM
Bilal Ismail, the one who is from a "deobandi-tabligee" background!

Only thing they left out that he is bayat with shaykh xyz and has got khilafat from him, that should definitely do the trick of swaying the deo-tj-tasawuf crowd....

I think al-kauthar missed a trick:lol:


is this the same bilal that got beaten up by the berelwis in durban

Sulaiman84
29-05-2012, 11:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=956fo849QXY

Ya'ni you can become a mujtahid within a short period of time.:rolleyes:

The Fake Shaykh
29-05-2012, 11:07 AM
is this the same bilal that got beaten up by the berelwis in durban

I'm not sure bro, what happend? did he say that having a brai on “Giyarwee Shareef” is a biddah:lol:

Abu Zakariya Yahya
29-05-2012, 11:30 AM
Ya'ni you can become a mujtahid within a short period of time.:rolleyes:

I completely agree that video seems problematic.

afriki_haqq
29-05-2012, 11:32 AM
Bilal Ismail, the one who is from a "deobandi-tabligee" background!

Only thing they left out that he is bayat with shaykh xyz and has got khilafat from him, that should definitely do the trick of swaying the deo-tj-tasawuf crowd....

I think al-kauthar missed a trick:lol:

:cheesygri:thumbsup::thumbsup:


is this the same bilal that got beaten up by the berelwis in durban

Yes, the same Bilal Ismail Jeebhai. He got heavily beat up by them Barelwis.

Sulaiman84
29-05-2012, 11:44 AM
I completely agree that video seems problematic.

I thought the nasheed in the background was sounding nice, though.

Ibrahimhanifa
14-06-2012, 10:38 PM
This is nothing new and many Salafis follow madhahib and it is quite hypocritical for many of these "traditionalists" to talk about this when many of them don't even follow the madhahib they claim to follow. What is the daleel for for many of the shuyookh of the "traditionalists" congratulating the imams of kufr and tajseem like the Pope, "Merry Christmas", and some of these same shuyookh make tafseeq and takfeer of Ibn Taymiyyah or accuse him of being "extreme" in his tahreem of congratulating the kuffar on their kufri holidays? What is the daleel for preaching a "moderate Islaam" at the behest of the anti-Islamic British government like the so-called Radical Middle Way? Is this what masquerades as "traditionalism"?

wow a hanafi defending a a salafi, why don't you add deobandis to your list? if you addd deobondis that would you leave as a exposed salafi!

Salafis do follow a madhab called wahabiya, alibaniya ( neither them of them didn't even memorised the Quran). According to Ahlu sunnah wa Jammah ( Deobandis etc) that wahabiya madhab is invalid and not recognised.

I am sure you have been saying merry christmas at work. Anyways, why do saudi arabia comtinue to give oil to USA to Bomb pakstan, Iraq, Palentine etc?

SASLAMS
18-06-2012, 11:24 AM
my cousin goes to nearly every al kauthar lesson in Johannesburg. about 5 years back I met a few guys & they were hard salafis, even the lessons were anti madhab & they would say stuff like doebandis are dogmatic & stuff like that, at times insulting the darul ulooms. however lately they saying stuff like "this is the view of imaam Shafi', this is the view of Imaam Abu hanifa & this is the view of Imaam Malick so you make up your own mind who you going to follow".
but I noticed that my cousin has been avoiding some dhikr gatherings & maulids & he has a sense of kibr that he didnt have before. he use to be a person that would first listen to you & then give his opinion but now as soon as you start with your opinion & he doesnt agree with you he would interupt you even if you have a valid opinion. he wont give you a chance to explain or hear you out, & that my friends is a dirty habit i found with many salafis.

samy.3660
18-06-2012, 11:34 AM
my cousin goes to nearly every al kauthar lesson in Johannesburg. about 5 years back I met a few guys & they were hard salafis, even the lessons were anti madhab & they would say stuff like doebandis are dogmatic & stuff like that, at times insulting the darul ulooms. however lately they saying stuff like "this is the view of imaam Shafi', this is the view of Imaam Abu hanifa & this is the view of Imaam Malick so you make up your own mind who you going to follow".
but I noticed that my cousin has been avoiding some dhikr gatherings & maulids & he has a sense of kibr that he didnt have before. he use to be a person that would first listen to you & then give his opinion but now as soon as you start with your opinion & he doesnt agree with you he would interupt you even if you have a valid opinion. he wont give you a chance to explain or hear you out, & that my friends is a dirty habit i found with many salafis.
+99...

mohdhussain
10-07-2012, 07:27 AM
It is shame on us, as Islam came to unit the people under one flag i.e. There is no God, but Allah and Muhammed is messenger of Allah. Allah gives the name Muslim but it seem we are not happy with it therefore we changed to some Debandi, salafi and etc...

The Glourious Quran has already given us the beautiful formula to resolve our disagreements i.e. in the Chapter 4, verser 59:

O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

May Allah help us to understand the Truth.

Muj4h1d4
10-07-2012, 08:04 AM
Yes it is salafi. Their aqeedah isn't right.

mohdhussain
10-07-2012, 10:16 AM
Yes it is salafi. Their aqeedah isn't right.

"Their Aqeedah isn't right" Is too short to understand anything. Could you please elaborate what's that not right?

Thanks in advance.

afriki_haqq
29-08-2012, 07:11 AM
:salam:

Mohammed Wadee aka "al-Wadi" ad-hominem attacks once again on Deobandis and Hanafis.

8657

:ws:

afriki_haqq
29-08-2012, 07:56 AM
8659

Ibrahimhanifa
30-08-2012, 08:57 AM
8659

Salam

Is Mohammed wadee a wahabi/neo salafi scholar? If so I dont think certain deobandis will not speak against him because they are trying to secure Saudi funding

mospike
05-09-2012, 11:32 AM
Phone the Saudi embassy in Pretoria and ask to speak to Muhammad Wadee

Yusof.ahmad
05-09-2012, 12:35 PM
There is an article on the web written by a leading hanfi Meccan scholar of Indian origin - it appears that during Hajj, the scholar had come across a young man addressing a group - He was an isntructor on hanafi fiqh at al-kauthar and throughout the speech, he was villifying Imam Abu hanifa - and also claiming that the Imam knew only 17 ahadeeth. So this is certainly not a reliable organization


Phone the Saudi embassy in Pretoria and ask to speak to Muhammad Wadee

At Tayyib
05-09-2012, 12:50 PM
There is an article on the web written by a leading hanfi Meccan scholar of Indian origin - it appears that during Hajj, the scholar had come across a young man addressing a group - He was an isntructor on hanafi fiqh at al-kauthar and throughout the speech, he was villifying Imam Abu hanifa - and also claiming that the Imam knew only 17 ahadeeth. So this is certainly not a reliable organization

http://www.deoband.org/2011/04/hadith/principles-of-hadith/imam-abu-hanifah-and-hadith/



By Shaykh ‘Abd al-Hafiz al-Makki
Translated by Ismaeel Nakhuda
Translator’s foreword

The following is a translation of the introduction (by Shaykh ‘Abd al-Hafiz al-Makki) to Shaykh Latif al-Rahman al-Bahraichi al-Qasmi’s Al-Rasa’il al-Thalathah al-Hadithiyyah, a collection of three hadith compilations containing narrations transmitted by Imam Abu Hanifah Nu‘man ibn Thabit. It was during the Hajj of 2009 that I was sat in a tent in Mina, a stone throw away from the Jamarat, when I was forced to listen to a young man’s rant on how weak Imam A‘zam Abu Hanifah apparently was in hadith.

Ignoring the sanctity of the venue and time, this young man — who it later transpired was an instructor at Al Kauthar Institute — gave a very colourful and misleading description of the respected imam’s supposed lack of knowledge and prowess in hadith. He also gave very little opportunity to others to rectify his wrong impressions. During this lengthy and greatly troubling speech, this young man — who, to add legitimacy to his views, claimed to be Hanafi and cited several contemporary Hanafi ‘ulama to support his claim to this effect — made many frivolous comments regarding the great imam that left me greatly pained and astonished. I also wondered how one could indulge in such slander of an individual who met and narrated from several Companions of the Prophet (may Allah be pleased with them), and that also at such a sacred time and place.

I pray and hope that by translating writings on this subject, misconceptions about this great tabi‘i, hadith scholar and faqih will be removed, insha-Allah. To add salt to my wounds, the Al Kauthar instructor also insisted that Imam Abu Hanifah apparently only knew seventeen hadiths! La hawla wa la quwwata illa billah. I will, insha-Allah, deal with this issue in a subsequent translation.

Was this instructor - Bilal 'Fake Tablighi' Ismail?

afriki_haqq
05-09-2012, 12:55 PM
http://www.deoband.org/2011/04/hadith/principles-of-hadith/imam-abu-hanifah-and-hadith/



Was this instructor - Bilal 'Fake Tablighi' Ismail?

I wonder. Interesting observation.

Yusof.ahmad
05-09-2012, 09:07 PM
Whoever he is, "huwal abtar"



http://www.deoband.org/2011/04/hadith/principles-of-hadith/imam-abu-hanifah-and-hadith/



Was this instructor - Bilal 'Fake Tablighi' Ismail?

afriki_haqq
16-10-2012, 08:45 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?94940-Was-Mufti-Menk-s-lecture-at-Bangalore-used-to-further-Salafi-propaganda


:salam:
:bism:

Yes. A hundred times yes.

1. The organizers when entering the venue hand out slips with a ball pen asking for:

a) Name
b) Email ID
c) Telephone #

and say "please fill in the details, we will collect the slip later".

2. The organizer who introduces Mufti Menk in the beginning quotes Allamah Iqbal [rh] and wonder of wonders Maulana Mahmud al Hasan Gangohi [rh] and heaps praises on both even talking about what Maulana went through in the Aseer -e- Malta exile and says how the Maulana in the last days of his life said the problem of the Muslim ummah is because it has moved away from the Quran and Sunnah. Immediately follows it up with inviting the audience to his 'Quran study circle'.

This man who we know, teaches the Quran in half sleeves shirt without even the Islamic cap.

For the audio of that introduction and how he puts it, click here (http://archive.org/details/MuftiMenk-AreWeLosingFocus-FullLecture) - its in English, so please listen. Its only a few minutes.

3. After the lecture of Mufti Menk, he thanks Mufti Saheb and the audience and requests the audience to return the slips given earlier at the entrance.

4. Leaving the venue we are confronted with a book stall in the corner, when checked the kind of books they are selling:

See for yourself the video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8POdlFFW4) 'Salafi Manhaj Dawah' is just one of the books.

5. And the most depressing thing:


http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i385/thegovt/ahlulnafs1.jpg
http://i1091.photobucket.com/albums/i385/thegovt/ahlulnafs2.jpg

^ The whole thread is about this 2 images you see above, with a blog punchline which says 'Bringing Muslims Together' Why in the hell am I posting all this, can't I just let things just be and concentrate on the bigger issues?

No. THAT is the REAL problem, going to such events of Al-Kauthar two of our own cousins became La Madhabis.

So what?

So what? They now hate anything regarding Madhabs and esp. Deoband, and have deep disrespect for the Scholars of South Asia, why one of them even said "What tabligh are you going to do when your aqeedah itself is wrong?".

Making them hold a book written by Scholars of Deoband is like handing them a ball of fire.

This is just the start and we don't know where its gonna end. When their 'elder' itself is teaching Quran without the sunnah's - what to expect of the students?.

We're more concerned because they are agents of disunity. I beg you let the people know their true face. I'm presenting you with all the facts, there was absolutely no need to put further the Ahlul Hadith propaganda at such a lecture mostly attended by youngsters.

Now, tell me if this doesn't cause disunity, then what is?. What to speak of the covert daawah tactics?.

:ws:

[A report by Shaykh Tweak - member of the.ijtema® blog]

...

afriki_haqq
18-10-2012, 09:08 AM
:salam:

A glimpse of a al-Kauthar styled class set up as taken from their website here (http://alkauthar.org/img/homebanner/34.jpg)

amr123
18-10-2012, 09:53 AM
They should rename their organisation.


:salam:
Do make special dua for me when you go for hajj.

At Tayyib
18-10-2012, 10:05 AM
:salam:
Do make special dua for me when you go for hajj.

:insh: May Allah be pleased with you and accept your efforts. May he make it easy for you to reach the fountain of Kauthar and give you the privilege to drink from it from the blessed hands of Rasulullah :saw:

pluto
01-11-2012, 04:03 PM
:salam:

Its already proven Al Kauthar is Ahlul Hadith / Salafi plus uses covert shameless daawah tactics:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?94940-Was-Mufti-Menk-s-lecture-at-Bangalore-used-to-further-Salafi-propaganda

----------------------

How I wish........ there needs to be a jama't of Scholars who would read / research these people thoroughly and guide us, the awaam. After all everything's or at-least most of it is on Google.

Are the Ulamah listening? Mufti Hussain? Mufti abuhajira? Maulana tommyharacho? Maulana Shamli? Mufti Javed? Maulana Abu_Uzair?

:ws:

afriki_haqq
11-11-2012, 11:45 AM
:salam:

Alas, the "loose cannon" never came back to defend his stupid ideas.

9293

mospike
11-11-2012, 06:42 PM
I'm lead to believe that our 'Chamcha' was on SABC2 this morning, he along with another individual mentioned before, a one Bilal ' Jheebai ' Ismail were defending the salafi creed in regards to many topical issues ( tawassul, aqeeda, sufism). The format was a debate style with one shot from the Salafis and another with a Sufi shaykh. This is unheard of in. South Africa, doing this on National TV?? Why? To what end?

SASLAMS
13-11-2012, 05:01 AM
I'm lead to believe that our 'Chamcha' was on SABC2 this morning, he along with another individual mentioned before, a one Bilal ' Jheebai ' Ismail were defending the salafi creed in regards to many topical issues ( tawassul, aqeeda, sufism). The format was a debate style with one shot from the Salafis and another with a Sufi shaykh. This is unheard of in. South Africa, doing this on National TV?? Why? To what end?

I enjoyed the doci, but I dont think it had to be put in the public domain. plus one up on the sufis for the salafi translation of the hadith "faman raghiba an sunnati" he said for the one who does not desire my sunnah. not a big mistake in meaning but who people cuaght up in the literal take on hadith on quran in should be seen as big & a clear reminder as to why a valid sanad is necessary.

afriki_haqq
22-11-2012, 07:05 AM
:salam:

The following, to a great extent, is what we have been saying in this thread:

STUDY AT SAUDI UNIVERSITIES?

QUESTION

The Saudi Embassy in South Africa is advertising the availability of “80 places for South Africans to study in various universities in Saudi Arabia.” Is it advisable for Muslims to study Islamic education at Saudi universities?

ANSWER

Regarding Islamic education, the Saudi universities propagate and specialize in the deviated Salafi ideology. Whoever takes admission to a Saudi university, lacks in Ilmi Istidaad (academic ability in terms of Islamic Knowledge). Those who study at Saudi universities, invariably return brain-washed and indoctrinated with Salafi’ism.

When they return, they deviously propagate the Salafi ideology under guise of being Hanafis. We have a couple of such slinking characters in our midst who ostensibly proclaim to be Hanafis, whilst in reality are Salafis employed to undermine the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama’ah.

We strongly discourage students from proceeding to Saudi Arabia for Deeni studies. The Deen is too precious a treasure, and may not be trifled with as they do at Saudi universities. Every Tom, **** and Harry who gain a smattering of ‘knowledge’ of the different Math-habs at Saudi universities, run away with the corrupt idea of being a ‘mujtahid’ on par with the Aimmah-e-Mujtahideen.

:ws:

Tameem2003
27-11-2012, 05:20 PM
My brother Sheikh Sudais has also studied in these institutions and our ulemas go to Mecca and perform Salaah behind the Imam is their Salah valid if as your answer from a Mufti indicates that anybody who studies in these institutions is deviated.


My sincere wish to Allah is that we Muslims must unite whether they are bareliwis,Salafis, tableegis. We are becoming a laughing stock for the kuffar.

At Tayyib
09-12-2012, 01:09 PM
My brother Sheikh Sudais has also studied in these institutions and our ulemas go to Mecca and perform Salaah behind the Imam is their Salah valid if as your answer from a Mufti indicates that anybody who studies in these institutions is deviated.

My sincere wish to Allah is that we Muslims must unite whether they are bareliwis,Salafis, tableegis. We are becoming a laughing stock for the kuffar.

How do we go about uniting the Muslims?

afriki_haqq
14-12-2012, 07:29 AM
:salam:

Shaykh Tawfique Chowdhury on the manhaj of Al-Kauthar:

Dear Baybers,

Thank you for you enquiry. AlKauthar does not subcribe to any particular school of thought even though our curriculm is mainstream Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah theology. Most of our instructors have isnads or ijazat to teach various sciences and many of them have ijazat in various madhabs themselves. I myself have studied the Hanbali madhab in detail, from a classical point of view. Also, not of all them are graduates from Medinah. Infact, out of the 5 confirmed so far, we have only 2 that studied in Medinah whilst the rest are from Darul-Hadeeth in Makkah and another from the Islamic University of Islamabad.

At AlKauthar, we are preparing our students to be strong students of knowledge and aiming to empower them with the tools they will need to be one. I suggest that you attend our courses and see for yourself. It is fine for you to follow a madhab strictly - for as long as you need to - however when you wish to study Islam deeply, then it is required for you to study them all. At AlKauthar we will study and draw from all of them inshaAllah.

Please do not miss the chance to gain knowledge. Knowledge must be gained from all sources as long as they are trustworthy. That is the only way to really finding the truth for yourself.

May Allah bless you in your endeavour to gain knowledge and enlighten you. Also my beloved friend, I advise you to make dua to Allah with the following dua which Rasulullah taught us:

اللهم رب جبريل وميكايل وإسرافيل فاطر السماوات والأرض أنت تحكم بين عبادك فيما كانوا فيه يختلفون. اهدنا لما اختلف فيه من الحق بإذنك. إنك لتهدي من تشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

Translation: O Allah, the Lord of Jibraeel, Mikaeel and Israfeel, the originator of the heavens and the earth, you judge between your slaves in that which they differ. Guide me to the truth in which they differ, verily you guide who ever you will to the straight path. [Reported by Bukhari that Rasulullah would recite this after the opening takbir in prayer and before reciting the fatihah in his tahajjud prayer - dua alistiftah]

http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=265&postcount=2

:ws:

At Tayyib
14-12-2012, 09:57 AM
:salam:

Shaykh Tawfique Chowdhury on the manhaj of Al-Kauthar:

Dear Baybers,

Thank you for you enquiry. AlKauthar does not subcribe to any particular school of thought even though our curriculm is mainstream Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah theology. Most of our instructors have isnads or ijazat to teach various sciences and many of them have ijazat in various madhabs themselves. I myself have studied the Hanbali madhab in detail, from a classical point of view. Also, not of all them are graduates from Medinah. Infact, out of the 5 confirmed so far, we have only 2 that studied in Medinah whilst the rest are from Darul-Hadeeth in Makkah and another from the Islamic University of Islamabad.

At AlKauthar, we are preparing our students to be strong students of knowledge and aiming to empower them with the tools they will need to be one. I suggest that you attend our courses and see for yourself. It is fine for you to follow a madhab strictly - for as long as you need to - however when you wish to study Islam deeply, then it is required for you to study them all. At AlKauthar we will study and draw from all of them inshaAllah.

Please do not miss the chance to gain knowledge. Knowledge must be gained from all sources as long as they are trustworthy. That is the only way to really finding the truth for yourself.

May Allah bless you in your endeavour to gain knowledge and enlighten you. Also my beloved friend, I advise you to make dua to Allah with the following dua which Rasulullah taught us:

اللهم رب جبريل وميكايل وإسرافيل فاطر السماوات والأرض أنت تحكم بين عبادك فيما كانوا فيه يختلفون. اهدنا لما اختلف فيه من الحق بإذنك. إنك لتهدي من تشاء إلى صراط مستقيم

Translation: O Allah, the Lord of Jibraeel, Mikaeel and Israfeel, the originator of the heavens and the earth, you judge between your slaves in that which they differ. Guide me to the truth in which they differ, verily you guide who ever you will to the straight path. [Reported by Bukhari that Rasulullah would recite this after the opening takbir in prayer and before reciting the fatihah in his tahajjud prayer - dua alistiftah]

http://forums.alkauthar.org/showpost.php?p=265&postcount=2

:ws:

Did anyone miss the message Tawfique Chaudhary is giving by quoting the dua from Sahih al-Bukhari?

:jazak:

At Tayyib
15-12-2012, 06:17 AM
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?73672-Al-Kauthar-s-Taqleed-Rap

[YOUTUBE] One madhab, two, three or four? - Chronicles of the Shariah (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYZVGKyEE5o&feature=related)