Allah can do everything

[Kareem]

:salam:

we know Allah does not undergo change, but is He able to undergo change? i ask because someone asked me and said Allah is able to do EVERYTHING and thus He is able to change if He wants to

kinda confused

[laughinglion]

:salam:


"Say: 'Allah'
then leave them plunging in their games."

"Allah was and there was nothing with Him.
He is now as He was."

A couple of Extracts from 'The Hikam' of 'Ibn `Ata'llah :rahim:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ABewley/hikam.html

There is also a commentary availiable at the site.

With peace.

[Kareem]

hmm didnt really make it any clearer llol. what i want to know if Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala can change his attributes. this person says He can because He is allmighty, He can do everything.

whats the deal?

[Omar HH]

hmm didnt really make it any clearer llol. what i want to know if Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala can change his attributes. this person says He can because He is allmighty, He can do everything.

whats the deal?

When we say Allah can do everything we don't include contigently impossible things

Allah can do everything that is contingently possible.

Go read the Guiding Helper which says:

The seventh belief is that Allah has power to do all contingently possible things (something is contingently
possible if it can either exist or not exist, rationally speaking). We do not say that Allah can do everything.
Rather, we say that everything that is rationally possible can be done by Allah. For example, the answer to the
question Can Allah create another god who is stronger than Him? is: No. It is not rationally possible for there
to be another god besides Allah as He is necessarily described by oneness as footnote 106 states. [There is a
rational proof to back up this statement which is given in footnote 152.]
However, it is rationally possible for Allah to punish the believer and have mercy on the disbeliever.

Allah can do anything that can be done. Questions such as Can Allah create a rock that is heavier than for
Him to lift? make no sense to begin with as they assume that Allah is like His creation and is finite. Both
assumptions are incorrect. Thus, the answer to such questions is: No. Doing so is not rationally possible as it
goes against Allah's necessary attribute of being different from His creation. The question is invalid.

[laughinglion]

:salam:

Not being a scholar in this, I will restrict myself to what I remember from my studies with my Sheikh in `Usulu'd-Deen (hafeethahu'Llah), with whom I study the text referred to by OmarBackfor2Posts. As Sidi Omar points out inreference to asking questions about Allah :taala: we need to consider the rationality of the statement. You ask if Allah can undergo change, is it reasonable that something absolutely perfect should need/desire/or be able to undergo change. There are two possibilities; first, that He :taala: undergo change in improvement. There is no room for improvement in Allah because He is absolutely perfect; second, to undergo change in decrease. Again not possible because this would entail deficiency and any deficiency is not becoming of a god. The next thing that needs to be noted is that change only effects things that are in time. Again, this cannot apply to Allah :taala: .

Thus 'ibn `Ata'Llah's :rahim: statement "Allah was and there was nothing with Him. He is now as He was", is enough, if you reflect.

I seek refuge in Allah :taala: from speaking without knowledge and having any mistakes I make believed as definitive. If any one can highlight any shortcomings in the above please come forward and clarify this matter. Wa'Llahu a`lam.

Ma`a salaama.

[Kareem]

yea i understand that and i told him something similar. his reply was that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is almighty and saying that He cannot do a certain thing it would mean that He is not Almighty. He said if Allah wishes to undergo change He can, he even said He can cause himself to die because again, He is Almighty. He does what He wills.

he says that if you say that Allah can do only things that are contingently possible, you are placing limits on Him. however he argues that Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala can place limits on himself.

[Omar HH]

yea i understand that and i told him something similar. his reply was that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is almighty and saying that He cannot do a certain thing it would mean that He is not Almighty. He said if Allah wishes to undergo change He can, he even said He can cause himself to die because again, He is Almighty. He does what He wills.

he says that if you say that Allah can do only things that are contingently possible, you are placing limits on Him. however he argues that Allah subhanahu wa Ta'ala can place limits on himself.

The doctrine of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jam'ah on Belief can be found in the Guiding Helper chapter 2. Read the whole thing from begining to end. If you still need clarification go read the Q&A on the website from begining to end.

The doctrine of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama'ah is that Allah cannot do the impossible.

[Omar HH]

Allah cannot cause himself to die - this is Kufr.

The proof for it is in the Guiding Helper, reproduced here for your benefit:

a) We established in the last proof that Allah's existence had no beginning (i.e. Allah has existed
forever).
b) We established in the first (c) section in footnote 138 that things that have existed forever can
never end.
c) Therefore, we conclude that Allah's existence can never come to an end.

a) Existence is a quality/attribute of Allah
b) We established in the first (e) section of footnote 138 that things that have existed forever
cannot have attributes that change in time.
c) We conclude Allah's attributes (e.g., existence, oneness, power, etc.) cannot change in time.
Rather, Allah is independent of time and His attributes are unaffected by the passage of time.
[This can be true for Him (even though it is not true for us) since He is different from all of His
creation, as the proof in footnote 150 dictates.]


138 There are multiple proofs that the physical universe had a definite beginning in time. One proof follows:
a) All physical things have an essence and have attributes for that essence. For example, a stone
is a physical body with an essence. Now, it can either have the attribute of (macroscopic)
motion or the attribute of (macroscopic) stillness. (In plain English: It can be either moving or
standing still.) Now, it is impossible to imagine a stone which is not moving (macroscopically)
and not standing still at the same point in time with respect to the same reference point. Thus,
the essence of the stone must necessarily be described by one of these attributes. The general
conclusion is that essences must necessarily have some attribute(s) when existent.
b) By looking at the attributes of physical things, we see that they are not stable. For example,
sometimes the stone mentioned above may be moving and at other times it may be standing still.
Thus, we see that these attributes come into existence (after being non-existent) and then fade
away. Therefore, it is possible for these attributes to either be existent or non-existent.
c) If a thing has two possible states in regards to its existence, it cannot have existed forever.
This is because things that have existed forever can never end in time. The proof for this last
statement follows:
i) If something that existed forever came to an end, it would mean that its infinity was
one-sided and not two-sided.
ii) If we propose the possibility of one-way infinity, we are claiming that one side has a
definite end point while the other side does not. Moreover, it is obvious that the definite
endpoint should be considered the origin while the side that goes towards infinity should
be considered the direction of progression. However, we see from observation that time
is a quantity that travels forward and not backward. From the physical perspective, it is
the things in the past that determine the future and not vice versa. Therefore, it is
impossible for something to have an origin in the future which has existed forever in the
past. [Please note that the opposite of this is possible: for something to have an origin in
the past and to exist infinitely forever in the future (as it conforms to direction of time),
as is the case for humans in Paradise and Hell.]
[Revision Note: In-depth analyzers of this argument should refer to our further proofs
and clarifications about the statements in this paragraph in the Notes of Sources.]
iii) The general conclusion is that things bound in time (as all physicals things are) that
existed forever can never end.
d) We conclude that the attributes of physical objects must have definite starting points (since
they can have definite endpoints) and cannot have existed forever.
e) As it is impossible for an essence of a physical object to exist without an attribute (refer to (a)
above), these essences must also have definite starting points in time just like the attributes that
describe them. This is because any essence that has existed forever can never change in time.
The detailed proof for this follows:
i) We have conclusively established that the attributes that describe the essences of
physical objects have definite beginnings in time (and we see that they can end in time).
If we claim that the essences (e.g., rocks and stones) themselves do not have definite
beginnings in time, it would necessitate us to say that the attributes (e.g., motion and
stillness) have been successively coming over these essences from time eternal. What
this means is that there was no first state for the essence (i.e. it didn't start out still or in
motion).
ii) We see that all essences are described by a particular attribute (e.g., stillness) at our
present time. Thus, we conclude that these essences have a particular state at a particular
time.

iii) We know from experience that events (as they are bound in time) can be counted.
For example if we move a rock back and forth once, we can count three points of stillness
(counting the rock's initial state) and two periods of motion. Thus, there are five events
in this example.
iv) We also know that all numbers are either odd or even. In the example above, the
number of events is odd.
v) If we propose that from the present time all the way back to never-ending pre-eternity
the essences of physical objects have been undergoing change, that would mean that the
number of events (up until now) that the essence underwent would neither be odd nor
even (as the concept of infinity does not allow for such). However, this is impossible as
the number of events bound in time have to be either odd or even up until a particular
instance in time (since time is quantity that travels forward and not backward). [As a side
note, a similar proof (using the odd/even concept) can be used to prove that the physical
universe is not infinite but is made up of a specific number of particles at a particular
time.]
vi) Thus, we conclude that these essences could not have existed forever since their
attributes undergo change.
f) Therefore, we make the general conclusion that essences that undergo change must have
definite starting points in time. As the universe is constantly changing, it must also have a
definite starting point in time.
Now, we are ready to give the formal proof for the existence of a Preceding Cause for the universe:
a) Things that undergo change must have a starting point in time.
b) The universe is constantly undergoing change (e.g., expansion, supernovas, celestial body
motions, etc.)
c) Therefore, the universe must have had a starting point in time.
d) Things that have a starting point in time need a preceding cause to bring them into existence.
e) Therefore, the universe must have had a preceding cause.
As Muslims, we have been taught that this preceding cause's name is "Allah".

[Kareem]

i think i will give him my copy of the guiding helper. i have told him about some of this stuff but he then replied "this is human logic"

[laughinglion]

i think i will give him my copy of the guiding helper. i have told him about some of this stuff but he then replied "this is human logic"

So what is your friends position based on, ignorance? If your friend is not willing to shape up then, you either dont discuss that matter with him or...the kind of blasphemous statements that he utters are not right for a person to have to listen to. These things maybe allowable coming from someone truly ignant, but your friend is claiming knowledge. This is compound ignorance a very heavy state to lift.

With Peace.

PS. Omar, Whats happening to the GH site ? I want to get to al-Mabaa'itha'l-`Asliyya (the basic research) and all the other treasures that are there. Any ideas. May Allah bless the people who put that site together with abundant good. 'Aameen.

[laughinglion]

i think i will give him my copy of the guiding helper. i have told him about some of this stuff but he then replied "this is human logic"

So what is your friends position based on, ignorance? If your friend is not willing to shape up then, you either dont discuss that matter with him or...the kind of blasphemous statements that he utters are not right for a person to have to listen to. These things maybe allowable coming from someone truly ignant, but your friend is claiming knowledge. This is compound ignorance a very heavy state to lift.

With Peace.

PS. Omar, whats up with the GH site? I want to get to al-Maba'itha'l-`Asliya (The Basic Research) and all the other treasure that are/were there. May Allah :taala: bless those who put the site together with abundant good. `Aameen.

[Omar HH]

PS. Omar, Whats happening to the GH site ? I want to get to al-Mabaa'itha'l-`Asliyya (the basic research) and all the other treasures that are there. Any ideas. May Allah bless the people who put that site together with abundant good. 'Aameen.

Assalam 'Alaykum wa Rahmatallahi ta'ala wa Barakatahu,

If you are in a college library take advantage to print them out with the really cheap printing. Syed Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Sharif al-Hassani, Shaykh Ali al-Iraqi, and Shaykh 'Ali Filali have done tremendous good for especially the Malikis through the Guiding Helper and related texts. Shaykh Ali al-Iraqi is still availible for Maliki fiqh Q&A and his email is availible on the website.

Anyways go here:

http://www.guidinghelper.com/pdf

And you will find all of the texts you want including Maba'ithal 'Asliyah, Shaykh Ali al-Iraqi's Arabic text on Tassawuf, al-Murshid al-Mu'in of Ibn 'Ashir, the Guiding Helper, the Guiding Helper with Explanatory Notes, Guiding Helper Notes of Sources of Main Text, a translation with commentary of al-Hikam of Ibn 'Ata Allah, Shadhiil awrad including Hizbul Bahr, a collection of post-Salat du'as, a reader on how to truly pronounce Rajz Arabic script, Qasidat al-Burdah in Spanish, and more.

Insha Allah you will enjoy wa Jazakallahu ta'ala Khayrun.

[laughinglion]

:salam:

:alhamd: :jazak: I got that locked bro, :cool:

PS. Are you based in Birmingham (U.K.), OmarBackFor2Posts ?

With Peace

[Omar HH]

Naw - East Side USA homie.

Jazakallahu Khayrun

[laughinglion]

Assalam 'Alaykum wa Rahmatallahi ta'ala wa Barakatahu,

And you will find all of the texts you want including Maba'ithal 'Asliyah, Shaykh Ali al-Iraqi's Arabic text on Tassawuf, al-Murshid al-Mu'in of Ibn 'Ashir, the Guiding Helper, the Guiding Helper with Explanatory Notes, Guiding Helper Notes of Sources of Main Text, a translation with commentary of al-Hikam of Ibn 'Ata Allah, Shadhiil awrad including Hizbul Bahr, a collection of post-Salat du'as, a reader on how to truly pronounce Rajz Arabic script, Qasidat al-Burdah in Spanish, and more.

Insha Allah you will enjoy wa Jazakallahu ta'ala Khayrun.

:salam:

Subhaana'Llah, You're all the way there in the US. :mash: May Allah :taala: give you the good of that and protect you from its evil. 'Aameen. (Am I right in thinking that tullaab of Shaykh 'Abu Qanit and Shaykh 'Ali al-Filali (may Allah protect them all and bring us benefit by their efforts), the guys who put together the guiding helper are over your side?).

I guess if you've been following that GH site, you'll be thinking of shipping out, especially after seeing what happened down South.

Anyhoo, :alhamd: I've had the opportunity to go through Sidi `Ali's (hafeethahu'Llah) book on Tasawwuf with him, on more than one occaision. A few weeks back he presented the same one in Leicester, as a six hour introduction to the science. I was unable to attend, but I'm sure it must have devastated whoever was present.

What caused me to write this post in the first instance, is that, if you look at the book titles from the GH site there are no truly polemical works. Therefore I concluded that if the people got themselves straight in these principle texts there would be no need for polemics.

Well, I've jacked the thread. Or maybe I will start a next thread.

Peace out, its getting late here now.

May Allah preserve you and make the path to all that He deems good easy for you. 'Aameen.

[Omar HH]

I'm not planning on shipping out anywhere any time soon.

Allahu 'Alam where they are - I guess their in Morocco? Shaykh 'Ali al-Iraqi is in Europe isn't he?

And the US beats the UK in our books lol. We may have extreme liberals and moral decadence but so does Europe and in Europe it's actually worse (oh God just goto the airport and watch people smoke, drink, and read porn like it's nothing!! We don't have it that bad) and at least we don't have people like al-Muhajiroun.

[Omar HH]

What caused me to write this post in the first instance, is that, if you look at the book titles from the GH site there are no truly polemical works. Therefore I concluded that if the people got themselves straight in these principle texts there would be no need for polemics.

There is some saying or something it goes something like - only read your Aqeedah and don't read anyone else's (including Shi'a, Wahhabi, Mutazila, etc.).

[Kareem]

So what is your friends position based on, ignorance? If your friend is not willing to shape up then, you either dont discuss that matter with him or...the kind of blasphemous statements that he utters are not right for a person to have to listen to. These things maybe allowable coming from someone truly ignant, but your friend is claiming knowledge. This is compound ignorance a very heavy state to lift.
from ignorance, but he confused me :( and im very worried i accept our aqeedah but i have some trouble understanding some things now.