URGENT: ex-salafi NEED HELP!!!!

[PeaceSeeker]

[[Removed]]

[Rahmaniyyah]

:salam:

Deobandis are not one tiny "group" in Pakistan - the fruits of the efforts of the Ulama of Deoband is easily the most deep and far-reaching compared to any other today. The teachings of the Ulama of Deoband is synonymous with the teachings of the Muhaqqiq 'Ulama and Sufis of our history. They are extremely firm on Sunnah and Shariah, harsh against bid'ah and very balanced in their views. Additionally, they are exemplary in their taqwa.

Deobandis are simply a continuation of authentic scholarship. The elders of the Ulama of Deoband have the qualities of the Salaf, and Allah has blessed us with them in these end times to be a source of hidayah

:ws:

[warea]

Asalamu'aleykum

I have been reading some articles by Sheikh Nuh Keller and Sheikh Abdul Hakim Murad and I was convinced by their historical proofs in Aqeedah, and intellectual explanations of the whole dawah salafiya movement, that the salafiya manhaj is deeply flawed and the whole salafiya aqeedah is deeply flawed.

So I've began to accept and realise that and I've started to accept the understanding of just applying tafwidh correctly and leaving the true explanation of what they are to Allah and Allah alone and I've started to accept and simply read and take Imam Tahawis creed as my own, thus being a true Athari aqeedah in nature rather than the confused depressing mess I used to be in when trying to accept and force myself that Allah (wa'l aiythabillah) has literally two right Hands and a Shin and Feet and so on may Allah forgive me for uttering anything wrong against him.

Anyway now that I'm out of salafiya I AM TOTALLY LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE TO MAKE THIS CLEAR!!! I can't explain how confused I am right now, EVERYWHERE I GO there are people from different sects or whatever and I can't find any online videos of sheikhs to watch without them being completely and totally different to each other etc. etc. like one sheikh would be a barelvi who starts shouting Allah HU a hundered times or a video of a huge crowd of guy with green turbans all sitting in a massive room, or people dancing around and falling on the floor, and I see some sheikhs that seem so good but hes just ONE guy and there are tons of others that seem good but they are at complete disagreement

then I find sunnipath and I'm so happy with it then I find some very disturbing stuff about graves etc and then after researching hard I find its not too much of a bad issue then im okay for a bit and happy then I find some EXTREMELY terrifying article by FARRAZ RABANI about ISTIGHATHA and this TOTALLY THROWS ME RIGHT OFF because I can not comprehend how authentic Islam is calling upon other than Allah, then I find that the article references Taqi Usmani then I find out that HE HIMSELF DENIED it and he actually meant that people who wrote "ya so and so" in poems etc are just doing it metaphorically etc.

so now I am totally lost then I find some deobanis that seem good but I become ill and feel like they're just one tiny group of people from Pakistan and I just become filled with sadness and confusion



WHERE IS THE STANDARD REAL ISLAM that is SIMPLE and TRUTHFUL, where is sunni Islam!?!?!?!? I can't seem to find what the true path is???!?! everytime I find something good it turns out to be some sufi orientated group that endorses a whole array of things that NO OTHER group has and they're all in cotrast to each other beecause they all interpret it some other way then soem other group just says its SHRIK and KUFR etc etc etc

Whenever this happens I just think that in reality maybe it was correct to just be following salafiya but lightly, I might just follow a madh'hab and athari aqeedah and try and stick to sunnah way of life for spiritual purification because at least the salafiya seems to be spreading extremely fast,

I mean in my whole community people are literally either very lax / moderate freemixers etc or they are following the salafiya there's like 3 or 4 guys who are deobandi and one guy whos some ex salafi whos a malaki/ashari but these are a rareity anyone now who starts to learn about Islam simply learns and follows salafiya literally

what is the classical orthodox islam to follow!?? I really liked Sheikh Yacoubi and Hamza Yusuf and Bin Bayyah and Abu Ghuddah rahimullah and Suhaib webb but it seems from reading about some of them they either make comments about crazy opinions on sunnipath or one says hadra is forbidden and others endorse barelvis and etc etc so its all a confused jumble of stuff if you get what I mean,

then I see people like sheikh nazim and dr tahur ul qadri and CRAZY SPINNING DANCING FALLING ON THE FLOOR, CRAZY INSANE ACTS at graves, people screaming YA X and X YA X and X whatever and some crazy crazy videos that I find INSANE and they put me off so badly and make me feel so ill

isn't sunni Islam and Ahlus sunnah supposed to be the normalised majority practice of Islam that is garunteed to be the people of Jannah whereas Ahlul bidah is in the hellfire!??! WHO IS THE AHLUL SUNNAH BECAUSE THESE DIFFERENCES AND SPLITS ARE CRAZY

Stick to following what your certain about. Since your convinced on the truth regarding the 4 schools of fiqh and 2 schools of aqeedah, then follow that upto mark. Rest of what you find confusing on legality of isthighasa or hadra, you will come to know its realities as you understand aqeedah and fiqh better. Strengthen your fundamentals before going to secondary issues.

Salam

[PeaceSeeker]

But I can't be comfortable until I learn the truth regarding these matters

What is Sheikh Nuh Keller and / or Sheikh Yacoubis view on istighatha because I really liked them and I like sunnipath academy (is sunnipath acadamy authentic?) but this fatwa by farraz rabbani has thrown me off totally and I feel ill like I've made a big mistake in leaving dawah salafiya????

[TripolySunni]

But I can't be comfortable until I learn the truth regarding these matters

What is Sheikh Nuh Keller and / or Sheikh Yacoubis view on istighatha because I really liked them and I like sunnipath academy (is sunnipath acadamy authentic?) but this fatwa by farraz rabbani has thrown me off totally and I feel ill like I've made a big mistake in leaving dawah salafiya????

Salam 'Aleykum,

Since when is it "impossible" or "forbidden" to take the best of both worlds? Is it too hard for you to accept the Asha'ari 'Aqeedah in terms of the way you understand God, yet at the same time adopt the Salafi position on istighatha?

[Abdul1234]

Brother

The scholars and followers of Darul Uloom Deoband and its associated Darul Ulooms are not a small group and along with the scholars and followers of Darul Nadwa they are the best Sunni Muslims of Indo-Pak and are very, very numerous.

There are associated and derivative Deobandi inspired seminaries in Europe, North America, Southern Africa, Bangladesh and other places.

According to statistics the tiny group is the Salafis, not the Deobandis. and the Salafis are split up into a number of smaller different groups still.

The Deobandis are not a sect they are part of mainstream authentic Sunni Islam, there have been many scholars very close to them in their thoughts in other countries. Sheikh Abdul Fattah Abu Guddah (ra) who you mentioned was one of them. This is simply because all Deobandis are essentially is people who are following a pure authentic version of traditional Sunni Islam as was passed down from the Holy Prophet (saws) in uninterrupted chains of transmission, who avoid bad innovations and accept the wholistic whole of the religion.

As to the things that you have seen amongst other traditional Muslims that have disturbed you, you are right to avoid that stuff but don't be too quick to judge because things are not as simple as they appear.

WHO IS THE AHLUL SUNNAH BECAUSE THESE DIFFERENCES AND SPLITS ARE CRAZY

I think if you ask scholars they will tell you that Ahlus Sunnah are the people following the Ashari Kalam or Maturidi Kalam (or true Athari theology) and either the Maliki, Hanafi, Shafii or Hanbali school of Fiqh.

Most of the splits that you see are only different Fiqh opinions that have allowed some things according to some scholars but not according to others, most of these differences may be mercies from Allah,

If I was you I would follow what your fitra takes you to and be careful not to criticize other Muslims too quickly as their apparent bad innovations that push you from your comfort zones when you see them may be permissible according to the Ijtehad of some great scholars from the past.

Scholars like Nuh Keller and Abdul Hakim Murad and Sheikh Yacoubi are not Deobandis and they have some slightly different views from theirs, but they are all Sunnis and they respect each other because they know that Islam is not monolithic like the Salafis try to make it, their differences are all acceptable differences within Ahlus Sunnah.

You have given up Salafism, maybe now it is time for you to give up the Salafi view that all Muslims have to be exactly the same.

[Aram]

:salam:

in my experience...you wont find many people who are 100% correct in every aspect
so like for example i will take fiqh stuff from sunnipath...but i dont take their stance on sufism seriously or mawlid

one other thing is if you want to learn about a group...don't look at what their opposition are saying because from all sides people have twisted things....the only way of really knowing about a group is looking at their sources yourself

don't look for a group to fit into...if something seems off to you reject that if its doubtful and stay away from doubtful things....things like istigatha...its not as if you wil be punished for not making it so best to stay away if its doubtful

I believe tasawwuf is important...but at the same time i don't take some of the narrations seriously about all the miracles of the saints etc...i know Allah bestows karamats on whomsoever he wishes and sahabas RA and pious people of the past were shown miracles...but at the same time i don't get to caught up in these stories as if they are an integral part of sufism

Your allegiance should not be with a particular group or scholar..rather it should be with Allah and rasoolAllah :saw: best thing for you to do right now is pick an aqeedah from the 3 aqeedahs within ahlus sunnah and a madhab....if your not comfortable with a particular form of sufism don't get involved
I found this website userful in regards to tasawwuf http://www.yunuspatel.co.za/

wallahu alam

[PeaceSeeker]

Can someone explain the concept of what istighatha is and clear it up once and for all, surely this is someone that is an aqeedah issue because only Allah is all knowing and all hearing and why would the angels need to relate the salutations and salams if it is possible for someone to simply state ya so and so from any point in the earth

I understand doing it near the graves within reach but how can anyone make claim to istigatha as a sound practice by ahlus sunnah, who actually believes that this is permissible?? the only person I can find is faraz rabbani on sunnipath that's it.

[*BismikAllahumma*]

:bism:

:salam:

InshAllah please read the following and inshAllah it will help clear the confusion.

Who are the Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah?
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ahlsunna.htm

Creating Divisions in Deen
by Moulana Muhammed Karolia
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?208904-Creating-Divisions-in-Deen

Tawassul (Supplicating Allah through an intermediary).
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-22324795

Calling someone besides Allah for help
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-20215545

Is it Permissible to recite the Salawat known as Durud al-Taj?
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-13540795

Why do some Sunni Ulema – like the Deobandis – prohibit the Mawlid?
http://www.daruliftaa.com/question?txt_QuestionID=q-20524212

[Abu Suliman]

Asalamu alaikum brother I reccomend you to listen to dars of Bukhari by Shaykh Abu Yusaf Riyadh Ul Haqq Insha'Allah it will be very benfecial and will remove your confusions about fiqh & aqeedah. www.akacademy.eu

[*BismikAllahumma*]

7201

Adab-al-ikhtilaf

[*BismikAllahumma*]

Aqidah At-Tahawiyyah

[silat]

7201

Adab-al-ikhtilaf
jazaakillaahu khoyron for the link

[PeaceSeeker]

[[removed]]

[UntoldTruth]

But I can't be comfortable until I learn the truth regarding these matters

What is Sheikh Nuh Keller and / or Sheikh Yacoubis view on istighatha because I really liked them and I like sunnipath academy (is sunnipath acadamy authentic?) but this fatwa by farraz rabbani has thrown me off totally and I feel ill like I've made a big mistake in leaving dawah salafiya????

I think the reason you have a problem with istighatha is that you are stuck on the form, and not the meaning.... If you believe it is only Allah who does thing.... if one says, "Oh Prophet aide me." or "Oh Allah through the love of your prophet aid me." There is no difference, if you ultimately believe it is only Allah who does things. If I ask a brother to help me buy a car... I am asking other than Allah... Ultimately it is only Allah who does things... So some scholars have deemed istighatha ok in this light.... Because shirk is when you think other than Allah is actually doing something...

And Allah knows best.

[Shkapar_Dorwaza]

Can someone explain the concept of what istighatha is and clear it up once and for all, surely this is someone that is an aqeedah issue because only Allah is all knowing and all hearing and why would the angels need to relate the salutations and salams if it is possible for someone to simply state ya so and so from any point in the earth

I understand doing it near the graves within reach but how can anyone make claim to istigatha as a sound practice by ahlus sunnah, who actually believes that this is permissible?? the only person I can find is faraz rabbani on sunnipath that's it.

:salam:

Here is the response of our Amir saheb, Mufti Husain (Allah preserve him) on istighatha in a nutshell:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?43379-Ruling-on-Istighathah-according-to-the-scholars-of-Ahl-al-Sunnah/page23&p=388990#post388990

[maneatinglizard]

I'm very fond of the Deobandis, the ones I meet are always the ones who seem to be most pleasant calm and have the best manners and seem to follow the sunnah so beautifully without any ugly distorted innovations or weird sectarianism, I always find them to be very humble people and they take care of their heart

I just wish that all of ahlus sunnah wa'l jamah would follow their way of having a solid grounding in fiqh and then working from that to ensure and keep the sunnah as it is in its authenticity, with a solid grounding in a firm aqeedah and then to have a beautiful genuine practice of tasawuf

I've noticed that aren't the mainstream students / teachers from al Azhar kind of like the Ashari / Sha'fi or Maliki equivalent in the Arab world to what the students and teachers of Deoband are for the indo / pak region?

if that's the case then alhamdulilah I think that clarifies and gives me great soundness and comfort, I think I as a person am far more interested and partial to sober tasawuf rather than the whole uneasy dancing and calling upon other than Allah azzwa'jal in the form of istighatha, alhamdulilah I was very glad to hear that the deoband scholars have a stance against this firmly

What is the tasawuf of Junaid al Baghdadi rahimullah I keep hearing about?

Please be kind to me and have patience because I have been quite affected by the whole dawah salafiya movement, may Allah guide us all to the straight path and keep us firmly upon it!

:salam:

I believe some of the Mauritanian scholars/students are quite similar to Deobandis in their adherence to Sunnah and "sober" tasawwuf. I'm sure there are others like them in other Arab countries as well.

And there are plenty of Arab scholars who reject Istighatha as well. I believe there's a thread on this forum somewhere that lists them.

[Arif2]

:salam:
I'm not Pakistani or Indian, I'm a white, revert to Islam living in America, but I follow the Deobandi Shaykhs. I used to be in a somewhat similar position to you, akhi (though I never had a deviant Aqidah, alhamdulillah). When I first came to Islam I was unintentionally psuedo-Salafi for about the first two or three months after I took Shahada. I was a revert and had very little knowledge, and psuedo-Salafi dawah is so prolific in the west and I didn't know any better, so they were who I followed. Fortunately, early on I had somehow stumbled on writings about correct Aqidah, and so when I heard "Shaykhs" I listened to and took fiqh from talking about Allah literally having hands, feet, etc. (astaghfirullah wa audhu billah) I became very worried and confused. And when I heard these "Shaykhs" constantly ranting about following the Qur'an and Sunnah only, and then contradicting each other on matters of Fiqh, it confused me even more, and when they'd say things like "follow the sahih ahadith", I wondered how I was supposed to do that. I had no knowledge of Arabic and I had only been Muslim for a few weeks, how was I supposed to interpret ahadith? Also, I had no idea about Madhahib; I had never heard of Hanafis, Shafis, etc. and I certainly had no respect for Sufis. I thought (astaghfirullah) they were a sect, rather than practitioners of Tasawwuf/Tazikiyah-ul-nafs, because that's what these "Shaykhs" said.

Eventually, I grew very depressed and confused. I was always worrying about whether or not I was praying correctly, making wudhu correctly, etc. because of these people constantly contradicting each other. I began to constantly make du'a begging Allah :taala: to guide me, and I eventually ended up finding out about Madhahib. At first I was resistant to the very concept of Madhahib, because it went against all of my psuedo-Salafi brainwashing, but as I continued making du'a and thinking about the issue it became very clear that Madhahib were the way to go, and everything started to finally make sense.

I became Hanafi, because the Hanafi Madhab has the most easily accessible materials in english, at the time I couldn't find many books or comprehensive websites about the other three Madhahib that were in english. However, I found more information than I could handle about the Hanafi madhab in English. So, I picked it because it was the one I knew I could follow easily and easily find answers to any questions I had. Eventually, I realized that most of the stuff I had been reading and watching came from Deobandis, so I learned more about them and became very impressed. So, I stick with Deobandis. Not because I think they have a monopoly on the Haqq or that no one else is on it, but because it's safe and easy for me, as a layman, to stick with them. I know the scholars are serious people with who have undertaken rigorous schooling, in the traditional manner, rather than random people running around acting like their PhD in Islamic Studies is an Ijaza (or even worse just random laymen giving fatwa and their interpretation of the Qur'an and ahadith, audhu billah). I'd again like to stress that I don't think Deobandis have a monopoly on the Haqq, I just personally think their work is more easily accessible than others'.


so now I am totally lost then I find some deobanis that seem good but I become ill and feel like they're just one tiny group of people from Pakistan and I just become filled with sadness and confusion

I'd recommend checking out this channel on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/hanafifiqh
and these sites:
http://www.deoband.org/
http://www.askimam.org/
http://yunuspatel.co.za/index.php

and about (correct) Sufism:
http://www.tasawwuf.org/basics/what_tasawwuf.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYKuR0L64g - Mufti Taqi Usmani on Tasawwuf
I'd also recommend Hazrat Yunus Patel's :rahma: here again.

As a side note on Faraz Rabbani:

Mufti A.S Desai (hafidhahullâh) replied to a question on this specific fatwa :
Respected Brother,

Your e-mail dated 12 August 2011 refers.

It is shirk to direct supplications (duas) to the dead. The fatwa
which you have mentioned is erroneous. The statement, “Ya Ali I
invoke thee..” is shirk.

It is necessary to refrain from the lectuires, etc. of this ‘famous
Aalim”. It appears that he is from among the people of bid’ah.

Attached is an explanation on Tawassul.

Was-salaam

A.S. Desai

For

Mujlisul Ulama of S.A.
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77569-quot-Ya-Ali-I-invoke-thee-quot&p=662879#post662879

[Rahmaniyyah]

Assalamualaikum

Brother Rahmaniyyah I've sent you an email.

:ws:

Jazakallahu khayran. I have replied to the email

[Mansy]

Assalamualaikum dear brother I pray that you are well and that Allah gives you the strength to come out of your spiritual dilemma. Indeed it is a sign of true iman that you are striving to find the truth. Without sounding patronising I would like to give you my tuppence understanding on your situation.

1. First and foremost you need to educate yourself on the fundamentals of your religion without jumping too ahead of yourself. Issues such as istighatha fall under the grey area and you will not be taken to task if you do not have any opinion regarding it.
2. STOP sheikh-shopping. The internet is a spider-web of confusion and you will be more confused than where you started. True ilm comes from dedicated painstaking study and not through high-speed internet sound-bites (please read my review of sheikh akram nadwis book on Imam abu hanifa somewhere on this forum). Start from the basics and work your way up. If there is a good scholar in your area then please benefit from him/her. If not then the Sunnipath modules are good and they will give good understanding of the basics.
3. Understand that Ulama are not infallible and they are prone to mistakes. This should not make you despondent.
4. Know that all the different aqida strands and fiqh schools that we have are simple human attempts to understand the divine. Some have come closer to the truth and others not so close. What actually matters at the end is NOT aqida (belief/theology) but faith (iman). How your relationship is with Allah. How you call unto him in your most sensitive and private moments surpasses all forms of systemic processes of theology. This is what Allah means when he says that 'We are closer to them than their jugular veins. Where is Allah in your life? Find him and make him personal and intimate to you and inshallah you will find strength in dealing with whatever problems you have in life. Empty theology without any essence is a sheer intellectual game and this is why Imam al-Ghazali himself broke in to a crisis and left the most prestigious position of professorship at the Nizamiya Madrasa in pursuit of some meaning to his life.
5. This is the same reason that Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi said that he wishes that he dies on the iman of the old lady from the village of Baghdad. The old lady is not bothered with systemic thought processes but only knows that there is one God and Muhammad is the last Prophet and that she be obedient to Allah.
6. For brothers and sister who are more advanced I refer you to two books written by Professor Sherman Abdul Hakim Jackson on this subject. (a) On the boundaries of theological tolerance (a translation of Imam al-Ghazali's faysal al-Tafriqa. Note: this book is out of print and can be bought for £800 from Amazon (sorry), (b) Islam and the problem of black suffering. It should be noted that both of these books are very advanced and should only be broached by the advanced students in Islamic theology.
6. I pray Allah helps you find your path.
And Allah knows best.
wassalam
Mansur

[Mansy]

Also I advise you to make a careful study of Imam al-Ghazali's 'The Ninety-nine names of Allah'

[Sulaiman84]

:salam:

Zing...

http://www.amazon.com/Al-Ghazali-Ninety-nine-Beautiful-Names-Ghazali/dp/0946621314/ref=pd_sim_b_1



Imam Ghazzali's :rahma: Iljaamul 'awaam 'an 'ilm al-kalaam might be good for him also.



http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/al-ghazali-a-return-to-purity-in-creed-excerpt-1.pdf

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/al-ghazali-a-return-to-purity-in-creed-excerpt-2.pdf

[umar_italy]

Asalamu'aleykum

I have been reading some articles by Sheikh Nuh Keller and Sheikh Abdul Hakim Murad and I was convinced by their historical proofs in Aqeedah, and intellectual explanations of the whole dawah salafiya movement, that the salafiya manhaj is deeply flawed and the whole salafiya aqeedah is deeply flawed.

So I've began to accept and realise that and I've started to accept the understanding of just applying tafwidh correctly and leaving the true explanation of what they are to Allah and Allah alone and I've started to accept and simply read and take Imam Tahawis creed as my own, thus being a true Athari aqeedah in nature rather than the confused depressing mess I used to be in when trying to accept and force myself that Allah (wa'l aiythabillah) has literally two right Hands and a Shin and Feet and so on may Allah forgive me for uttering anything wrong against him.

Anyway now that I'm out of salafiya I AM TOTALLY LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I HAVE TO MAKE THIS CLEAR!!! I can't explain how confused I am right now, EVERYWHERE I GO there are people from different sects or whatever and I can't find any online videos of sheikhs to watch without them being completely and totally different to each other etc. etc. like one sheikh would be a barelvi who starts shouting Allah HU a hundered times or a video of a huge crowd of guy with green turbans all sitting in a massive room, or people dancing around and falling on the floor, and I see some sheikhs that seem so good but hes just ONE guy and there are tons of others that seem good but they are at complete disagreement

then I find sunnipath and I'm so happy with it then I find some very disturbing stuff about graves etc and then after researching hard I find its not too much of a bad issue then im okay for a bit and happy then I find some EXTREMELY terrifying article by FARRAZ RABANI about ISTIGHATHA and this TOTALLY THROWS ME RIGHT OFF because I can not comprehend how authentic Islam is calling upon other than Allah, then I find that the article references Taqi Usmani then I find out that HE HIMSELF DENIED it and he actually meant that people who wrote "ya so and so" in poems etc are just doing it metaphorically etc.

so now I am totally lost then I find some deobanis that seem good but I become ill and feel like they're just one tiny group of people from Pakistan and I just become filled with sadness and confusion



WHERE IS THE STANDARD REAL ISLAM that is SIMPLE and TRUTHFUL, where is sunni Islam!?!?!?!? I can't seem to find what the true path is???!?! everytime I find something good it turns out to be some sufi orientated group that endorses a whole array of things that NO OTHER group has and they're all in cotrast to each other beecause they all interpret it some other way then soem other group just says its SHRIK and KUFR etc etc etc

Whenever this happens I just think that in reality maybe it was correct to just be following salafiya but lightly, I might just follow a madh'hab and athari aqeedah and try and stick to sunnah way of life for spiritual purification because at least the salafiya seems to be spreading extremely fast,

I mean in my whole community people are literally either very lax / moderate freemixers etc or they are following the salafiya there's like 3 or 4 guys who are deobandi and one guy whos some ex salafi whos a malaki/ashari but these are a rareity anyone now who starts to learn about Islam simply learns and follows salafiya literally

what is the classical orthodox islam to follow!?? I really liked Sheikh Yacoubi and Hamza Yusuf and Bin Bayyah and Abu Ghuddah rahimullah and Suhaib webb but it seems from reading about some of them they either make comments about crazy opinions on sunnipath or one says hadra is forbidden and others endorse barelvis and etc etc so its all a confused jumble of stuff if you get what I mean,

then I see people like sheikh nazim and dr tahur ul qadri and CRAZY SPINNING DANCING FALLING ON THE FLOOR, CRAZY INSANE ACTS at graves, people screaming YA X and X YA X and X whatever and some crazy crazy videos that I find INSANE and they put me off so badly and make me feel so ill

isn't sunni Islam and Ahlus sunnah supposed to be the normalised majority practice of Islam that is garunteed to be the people of Jannah whereas Ahlul bidah is in the hellfire!??! WHO IS THE AHLUL SUNNAH BECAUSE THESE DIFFERENCES AND SPLITS ARE CRAZY

Main point is now don't go to the opposite extreme (i.e. grave worshipping istighatha loving "traditionalists").

Deobandi minhaj is the middle path in our times, and rest assured it's not just "a school from Pakistan": it's Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah in its beliefs, methodology, actions and states.

[umar_italy]

Can someone explain the concept of what istighatha is and clear it up once and for all, surely this is someone that is an aqeedah issue because only Allah is all knowing and all hearing and why would the angels need to relate the salutations and salams if it is possible for someone to simply state ya so and so from any point in the earth

I understand doing it near the graves within reach but how can anyone make claim to istigatha as a sound practice by ahlus sunnah, who actually believes that this is permissible?? the only person I can find is faraz rabbani on sunnipath that's it.

See:

Istighatha - By Ismaeel Nakhuda, with additional quotes provided by Mufti Husain Kadodia - http://deoband.org/2009/02/aqida/deviant-beliefs/istigatha/

Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah - By Saad Khan - http://deoband.org/2010/09/aqida/deviant-beliefs/istighatha-seeking-help-from-other-than-allah/

Ruling on Istighathah according to the scholars of Ahl al-Sunna - http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?43379-Ruling-on-Istighathah-according-to-the-scholars-of-Ahl-al-Sunna

And this great explaination by our Amir of the forum, Hadrat Mufti Husain Kadodia Sahab:

"I am extremly busy at the moment and have no time to enter into a discussion on Istighathah, however I guess it is time to clarify some basic concepts, which you seem to have difficulty grasping.

When a person calls out to one who is absent for help, he could do it in one of the following ways:

1- Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, without such abilities been granted by Allah

2- Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, with such powers having been granted by Allah, but Allah Ta'la (wa al-iyadh bi Allah) being unable to strip him of those powers.

These two are clear shirk and not the issue under discussion, as you will have to really look hard to find Muslims holding such belief. I wouldn't be too surprised if a few of the really extremist Barelwis do hold such beliefs, however, that isn't for discussion here.

3-Believing that person having the ability to hear him and/or help him from afar on his own without the news being conveyed to him though ilham or Angels, with such powers having been granted by Allah who holds the ability to strip him of such powers when he wishes.

This is the type of istighathah under discussion and this is what is meant by "Istiqlan", as this person supposedly receives knowledge of the unseen mustaqillan (independently), as the news was not delivered to him, rather he perceived it on his own.
Our Hanafi Fuqaha have clearly stated that one who believes in a person other than Allah Ta'ala being able to receive knowledge of the unseen in this manner, is a KAFIR.
I suppose they were probably loose in slithering out the words "kufr" and "shirk"!

As for the 4th and 5th type, that is one who calls out:
4- Not believing that the person has the ability to hear me, rather Allah Ta'ala would convey this call to him and then allow him to come to my aid through a karamah or instead Allah Ta'ala would aid me

and

5- Not believing that the person has the ability to hear me, rather he just adopted such words as Tawassul in the court of Allah, in reality asking Allah for help, without even intending that this person can ever hear me in any way or help me

then these two are definitely not Shirk haqiqi.

Yes, our Ulama forbid people from calling in such a manner as it could lead to others getting the impression of shirk or it could lead to the callers own beliefs being spoilt after some time.

The situation Mufti Taqi sahib called "fiqurative" or "imaginary" falls into this last type, as it is common in poetry, where a person calls out to all types of imanimate objects: addressing the earth, the walls, etc, not in anyway intending that they can hear or even respond. The same for those elders who address Awliya in their poetry."
[Husain - http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?43379-Ruling-on-Istighathah-according-to-the-scholars-of-Ahl-al-Sunna&p=388990&viewfull=1#post388990]

And this concise scheme by Brother Saad:

"1. Permissible forms of istimdad:

- To ask Allah Most High through the wasila of a pious personality, dead or alive.
- To ask an alive individual to make du`a' for you to Allah.
- To ask a dead wali near his grave to make dua for you to Allah.

2. Impermissible forms of istimdad:

To ask anyone beside Allah, dead or alive, for du`a' from far with the belief that they can hear from far.
To ask anyone beside Allah, dead or alive, for things that are above the means (ma fawq al-asbab), like children, sustenance, rain, etc."
[Saad - http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?43379-Ruling-on-Istighathah-according-to-the-scholars-of-Ahl-al-Sunna&p=379600&viewfull=1#post379600]

[umar_italy]

:salam:
I'm not Pakistani or Indian, I'm a white, revert to Islam living in America, but I follow the Deobandi Shaykhs.

And here it is another Deobandi gora sahib.. : D

[Sulaiman84]

And here it is another Deobandi gora sahib.. : D

<-- And here is another.

[SeekerOfGuidance]

:salam:

Deobandis are not one tiny "group" in Pakistan - the fruits of the efforts of the Ulama of Deoband is easily the most deep and far-reaching compared to any other today. The teachings of the Ulama of Deoband is synonymous with the teachings of the Muhaqqiq 'Ulama and Sufis of our history. They are extremely firm on Sunnah and Shariah, harsh against bid'ah and very balanced in their views. Additionally, they are exemplary in their taqwa.

Deobandis are simply a continuation of authentic scholarship. The elders of the Ulama of Deoband have the qualities of the Salaf, and Allah has blessed us with them in these end times to be a source of hidayah

:ws:

:salam:

:mash: very accurate and concise summary. It may be worthwhile to do a quick analysis of how much barakah and the extent to which the scholarly revival that took place from Deoband, has illuminated the furthest reaches of the Ummah.

There is no corner in the world where the light emanating from the Deobandi Akabir has not reached, preserving the beautiful Sunnah of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), and eliminating bid'ah. Shaykh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah's statement regarding the Deobandi's work in the sub-continent is applicable all over the world:

“The great madrasah of Deoband is [like] a radiant sun that has illuminated various parts of India. It revived the Prophetic way (sunnah) academically, practically and in terms of suluk, and it removed the darkness of innovation (bid’ah), which had amassed in those lands for a lengthy time. It stripped the pools of knowledge and shari’ah from all that was alien to them in the same way that it stripped the suluk of the Sufis from new customs — such as sama’ and stringed instruments and their like from the gatherings of bid’ ah that were prevalent in India in those days. It replaced those innovations with clear and radiant sunnah — in terms of teaching and studying, suluk and propagation — until it (the madrasah) became a powerful, great and authentic source of light from which came droves of god-fearing (rabbaniyyin) ulama, who combined the excellence of knowledge and action (’amal), while adhering to the sunnah and eliminating bid’ah.”

You can get a glimpse of how far-reaching if you consider the fact that just in a non-muslim country such as the United Kingdom, there are over a thousand Deobandi Masajid, Madaris and Makatib, the number of Tablighi Markaz around the world can be gauged from here: http://tablighijamaat.wordpress.com/2008/05/13/worldwide-tablighi-markaz-address/ , and even the non-muslims estimate the number of Tablighi activists to be well above three million. It's seems to reflect a dream of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi :rahma: which I heard about once.

:ws:

[Saqqib_Ali]

I repeat again, the deobandis are not a small group from pakistan.....They're actually from India.

to the OP, Stick to sheikh Yacoubi/Shayk Hakim Murad and Shaikh Nu Ha Mim Keller. These scholars have lectures on almost all aspects of Islam. The wisdom of these scholars is that they also cite alternate views in their talks.

Ignore any "opposing videos" to them, they are only there through the influence of the wahabi petro dollars.

finally, Tawassul (using means), tashaffu` (using intercession), and istighatha (asking help) all have the same meaning. And the above scholars are highly in favour of using these to approach Allah for his mercy.

Allah and his prophet know better

Jazakallah

[Rahmaniyyah]

<-- And here is another.

Really? Masha Allah!

What's your ethnicity if you don't mind me asking?

[Rahmaniyyah]

:salam:


to the OP, Stick to sheikh Yacoubi/Shayk Hakim Murad and Shaikh Nu Ha Mim Keller. These scholars have lectures on almost all aspects of Islam. The wisdom of these scholars is that they also cite alternate views in their talks.

Cite alternate views? Shaykh Abdul Hakim, then I see that sometimes, he does. But Shaykh Ya'qoubi and Shaykh NHM? No. They hardly do so.

And citing "alternate views" is no sign of truth. Alternate views can also be Kufr and Shirk.


Ignore any "opposing videos" to them, they are only there through the influence of the wahabi petro dollars.

Masha Allah, it's true - Allah is truly al-Wahhab (the Bestower) and He gives petro dollars to whom He wills.


finally, Tawassul (using means), tashaffu` (using intercession), and istighatha (asking help) all have the same meaning. And the above scholars are highly in favour of using these to approach Allah for his mercy.

So the phrases "using means" "using intercession" and "asking help" have the same meaning?

[Rahmaniyyah]

It's seems to reflect a dream of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi :rahma: which I heard about once.

Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi) used to see many pious dreams. Once he saw a dream that he was sitting on top of the Kabah Shareef and many streams were flowing from his hands to many parts of the world. He related this dream to his Ustadh Hadhrat Maulana Mamlook Ali (Rahmatullah Alayhi) who interpreted the dream that the world will benefit from the knowledge of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi).

Hadhrat Maulana founded Darul Uloom Deoband and the branches of Darul Uloom Deoband are spread throughout the different parts of the world.

[SeekerOfGuidance]

Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi) used to see many pious dreams. Once he saw a dream that he was sitting on top of the Kabah Shareef and many streams were flowing from his hands to many parts of the world. He related this dream to his Ustadh Hadhrat Maulana Mamlook Ali (Rahmatullah Alayhi) who interpreted the dream that the world will benefit from the knowledge of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi).

Hadhrat Maulana founded Darul Uloom Deoband and the branches of Darul Uloom Deoband are spread throughout the different parts of the world.

:salam:

Some dreams of Hadhrat Maulana

Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi) used to see many pious dreams. Once he saw a dream that he was sitting on top of the Kabah Shareef and many streams were flowing from his hands to many parts of the world. He related this dream to his Ustadh Hadhrat Maulana Mamlook Ali (Rahmatullah Alayhi) who interpreted the dream that the world will benefit from the knowledge of Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi).

Hadhrat Maulana founded Darul Uloom Deoband and the branches of Darul Uloom Deoband are spread throughout the different parts of the world. Once he also saw a dream that he was sitting above the Kabah Shareef and facing towards Baghdad. There was a stream flowing from there, which touched his feet. The dream was interpreted that the Hanafi Madhhab would spread through Maulana Qasim Nanotwi (Rahmatullah Alayhi). Imam Abu Hanifa (Rahmatullah Alayhi) was from Baghdad and the Hanafi Madhhab was established from there.

http://datruth.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/shaykh-qasim-nanotwi-rahmatullahi-alayhi/

:ws:

[PeaceSeeker]

Asalamualeikum, can you edit your post and remove the quoted text.

[SeekerOfGuidance]

Asalamualeikum, can you edit your post and remove the quoted text.

:salam:

Did you gain any answers to your questions here? If you find the current landscape without any clarity, I would recommend you examine with sincere objectivity some of the teachings of the Mujaddids who have gained widespread and undeniable acceptance, such as Mujaddid Alf-e-Thani and Shah Waliullah, and find which group of scholars have inherited and preserved the same teachings.

:ws:

[junfrared]

Empty theology without any essence is a sheer intellectual game and this is why Imam al-Ghazali himself broke in to a crisis and left the most prestigious position of professorship at the Nizamiya Madrasa in pursuit of some meaning to his life.
5. This is the same reason that Imam Fakhr al-Din al-Razi said that he wishes that he dies on the iman of the old lady from the village of Baghdad. The old lady is not bothered with systemic thought processes but only knows that there is one God and Muhammad is the last Prophet and that she be obedient to Allah.
Mansur

Asalam Alikum

Peace Seeker Nuh Ha Mim Keller is a BARELVI.

Sheikh Mansur why don't you tell him clearly that they had been burned out by Ashari/Maturidi theology, and wanted to believe as a layman or villager or a salve girl believe, so they repented from their Alim ul kalam, accepted the Athari Creed. Please tell him truth.

Imam Ghazali repented and left the Ilm-ul-Kalaam (Ashari/Maturidi) and adhered to the Hadiths of Rasoolullah (salallaho alaihi wasallam) (not for deivant Tafweed) rest of his life even the Sahih Bukhari was on his chest at the time of his death.

He says:

Anything which could be found praiseworthy with those AhulKalaam, has already been in Quran with a more beautiful manner and a far better clarification. It is certainly impossible that one couldn't be guided or attain firmness in faith and knowledge through the verses of Allah and the narrations of Rasoolullah (salallaho alahi wasallam), but through the speeches and logics of those who themselves have drowned in the ocean of anxiety and ambiguity. Listen! It is obligatory upon us that we will make the speech of Allah and his messenger the base for everything, and contemplate on their meanings (killing not for deivant Tafweed), and refer back to them for proving each and every matter.

And Iman Razi r.a.in his severe confusion caused Alim ul Kalam (Ashari/Maturidi)


The end of every step of Aqal is confusion

And the whole efforts on the base of people's intellect and logic are deviance.

Our souls are in estrangement and scared from our bodies

And the result of our world is harm and evil

We never benefited from our debates throughout our lives

Except that we collected gossips and idle talks

He then says (i.e. al-Razi): I examined the different Kalami approach (Ashari/Maturidi) and philosophical methods, yet I did not find them quenching the intellectual thirst, nor curing the ailment. Although, I did notice that the most correct way was the Quranic way. To affirm [the attributes] I simply recite: “The Most Merciful rose over the throne” and “To Him ascends the good word”; and to negate I simply recite: “There is none like His likeness”, and “Do you know of any similarity to Him?” (not doing deivant tafweed)

[junfrared]

This is how Imam Razi r.a., Imam Ghazali r.a., wanted to believe, as I have shown their statements:

Mu’awiyah bin al-Hakam said . . . “I had a slave-girl who tended goats by the side of Uhud and Jawwaniya. One day I happened to pass that way and found that a wolf had carried a goat from her flock. I am after all a man from the posterity of Adam. I felt sorry as they (human beings) feel sorry. So I slapped her. I came to the Messenger of Allah, sal Allahu alayhi was salam, and felt as something grievous I said: “Messenger of Allah, should I not grant her freedom?” He said: “Bring her to me.” So I brought her to him. He said to her: “Ayna Allah (Where is Allah)?” She said: “Fee sama’ (Above the sky).” He said “Who am I?” She said: “Thou art the Messenger of Allah.” He said : “Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman.” Muslim.

[Sulaiman84]

Wow. So there's deviant tafweedh now? Where did you get that from?

[mh16388]

to the OP:
aoa,
i am an ex-salafi too. i understand what you feel. my advice is to stick to a madhab of your locality. that is what i did (eventually : D). and do not worry about isthigatha and tawassul etc. they are not fundamentals of Islam. ive never done either isthigatha or tawassul. you can completely ignore them until you start understanding usool of fiqh of the madhab you adopt. then you shall understand in sha Allah many aspects of religion that cannot be understood in a very short time.
anyway you can be a perfect muslim without an opinion on istigatha and tawassul.
and dont listen to some of these sectarian lot trying to misguide you. i studied both salafi manhaj and deobandi manhaj extensively and came to the conclusion that the deobandi path is indeed the middle path. on one extreme are the salafis and the other extreme are the barelvis.
hope this helps.

[mh16388]

:salam:

Did you gain any answers to your questions here? If you find the current landscape without any clarity, I would recommend you examine with sincere objectivity some of the teachings of the Mujaddids who have gained widespread and undeniable acceptance, such as Mujaddid Alf-e-Thani and Shah Waliullah, and find which group of scholars have inherited and preserved the same teachings.


:ws:

that is actually a very good point.

[AbdAllah313]

:salam:
I'm not Pakistani or Indian, I'm a white, revert to Islam living in America, but I follow the Deobandi Shaykhs. I used to be in a somewhat similar position to you, akhi (though I never had a deviant Aqidah, alhamdulillah). When I first came to Islam I was unintentionally psuedo-Salafi for about the first two or three months after I took Shahada. I was a revert and had very little knowledge, and psuedo-Salafi dawah is so prolific in the west and I didn't know any better, so they were who I followed. Fortunately, early on I had somehow stumbled on writings about correct Aqidah, and so when I heard "Shaykhs" I listened to and took fiqh from talking about Allah literally having hands, feet, etc. (astaghfirullah wa audhu billah) I became very worried and confused. And when I heard these "Shaykhs" constantly ranting about following the Qur'an and Sunnah only, and then contradicting each other on matters of Fiqh, it confused me even more, and when they'd say things like "follow the sahih ahadith", I wondered how I was supposed to do that. I had no knowledge of Arabic and I had only been Muslim for a few weeks, how was I supposed to interpret ahadith? Also, I had no idea about Madhahib; I had never heard of Hanafis, Shafis, etc. and I certainly had no respect for Sufis. I thought (astaghfirullah) they were a sect, rather than practitioners of Tasawwuf/Tazikiyah-ul-nafs, because that's what these "Shaykhs" said.

Eventually, I grew very depressed and confused. I was always worrying about whether or not I was praying correctly, making wudhu correctly, etc. because of these people constantly contradicting each other. I began to constantly make du'a begging Allah :taala: to guide me, and I eventually ended up finding out about Madhahib. At first I was resistant to the very concept of Madhahib, because it went against all of my psuedo-Salafi brainwashing, but as I continued making du'a and thinking about the issue it became very clear that Madhahib were the way to go, and everything started to finally make sense.

I became Hanafi, because the Hanafi Madhab has the most easily accessible materials in english, at the time I couldn't find many books or comprehensive websites about the other three Madhahib that were in english. However, I found more information than I could handle about the Hanafi madhab in English. So, I picked it because it was the one I knew I could follow easily and easily find answers to any questions I had. Eventually, I realized that most of the stuff I had been reading and watching came from Deobandis, so I learned more about them and became very impressed. So, I stick with Deobandis. Not because I think they have a monopoly on the Haqq or that no one else is on it, but because it's safe and easy for me, as a layman, to stick with them. I know the scholars are serious people with who have undertaken rigorous schooling, in the traditional manner, rather than random people running around acting like their PhD in Islamic Studies is an Ijaza (or even worse just random laymen giving fatwa and their interpretation of the Qur'an and ahadith, audhu billah). I'd again like to stress that I don't think Deobandis have a monopoly on the Haqq, I just personally think their work is more easily accessible than others'.


I'd recommend checking out this channel on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/hanafifiqh
and these sites:
http://www.deoband.org/
http://www.askimam.org/
http://yunuspatel.co.za/index.php

and about (correct) Sufism:
http://www.tasawwuf.org/basics/what_tasawwuf.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNYKuR0L64g - Mufti Taqi Usmani on Tasawwuf
I'd also recommend Hazrat Yunus Patel's :rahma: here again.

As a side note on Faraz Rabbani:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?77569-quot-Ya-Ali-I-invoke-thee-quot&p=662879#post662879


Good post Alhumdulillah :lol:

[PeaceSeeker]

Asalamu` aleikum,

I have given it a lot of thought over the past few months and I feel that all of this is just unnecessary confusion.

Like I said it's very clear and apparent from the previous posts that there is an insane deobandi / barelwi split with all of these "traditional Islam" forums and I simply can not accept that there is a valid difference of opinion on the matters that they disagree about.

I'm not into any sects, however I do honestly believe that if we want to look at an example to practice Islam by then we should look back to the original practice of Islam by the companions, tabieen and taba'tabien may Allah be pleased with them.

I don't care what 'group' this puts me in but this is what I believe to be truth, I think the hadeeth regarding differences and clinging to the sunnah is most applicable to this era especially may Allah save us from misguidance and arrogance.

With regards to fiqh I do feel it is essential to learn from a particular madh`hab and with regards to aqeedah I believe we shouldn't go beyond what the salaf went by and simply state what rasul Allah stated regarding anything and not even think about it or delve into it because it is a massive source of fit`nah and deviation for many people.

I think the thing most people are lacking is good etiquette and manners. May Allah guide those who have gone down a path of misguidance and innovation and may He rectify and set aright their affairs. Ameen.

May Allah guide me and all of us to the straight path and keep us firm upon it, ameen.