Translation of Fayslah Kun Munazarah on the Barelwi Fitnah by Zameelur Rahman

[Rahmaniyyah]

:bism:

:salam:





Note from the Translator

Fayslah Kun Munazarah, first printed in 1933 CE, is a thorough rebuttal of the verdicts of disbelief against four senior scholars of the Deobandi School as presented in Husam al-Haramayn of Mawlawi Ahmad Rida Khan Barelwi. Sufficient details about the book are given in the author’s introduction below. Due to the paucity of material on the subject in the English language, many Muslims in the English-speaking world were easily swayed towards the view propounded in Husam al-Haramayn due to the vigour with which the fatwa is propagated by its English-speaking proponents and the gravity of the allegations made. The book translated here provides a balanced, level-headed, point-by-point critique of the fatwa in simple and easy-to-understand language, demonstrating with complete clarity the deception of the original accusations against the Deobandi elders and their innocence from the heresies ascribed to them. Sincere readers who have been exposed to the allegations will now have the opportunity to assess the validity of such claims. Allah, Most Exalted, commands in the Glorious Qur’an: “O you who believe, if a sinful person brings you a report, verify its correctness, lest you should harm a people out of ignorance, and then become remorseful on what you did.” (49:6)

Born in 1323 H/1905 CE, the author of the book, Mawlana Muhammad Manzur Ahmad Nu‘mani (Allah have mercy on him), graduated from India’s leading Islamic seminary, Dar al-‘Ulum Deoband, in the year 1346 H/1927 CE. At the madrasah, he studied under such luminaries as Imam al-‘Asr ‘Allamah Anwar Shah al-Kashmiri and other major scholars of hadith and fiqh from the Indian subcontinent. Upon graduating, he returned to his hometown of Sunbhul and began serving the Muslim community there. In the period following his studies, he was also actively engaged in debates against various groups, particularly the Barelwi group which had instigated a tragic fitnah of takfir that had spread throughout India. With meticulous research and lucid speech, he composed many comprehensive works related to these groups, the work translated here being one of them. Within a few years of graduating from Deoband, he also established a monthly journal, al-Furqan, which gained wide popularity. His pledge in the spiritual path was to Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qadir Raipuri (1295 – 1382 H). He passed away in the year 1417 H/ 1997 CE. He authored a number of works on hadith, tasawwuf, politics and other topics, and he left behind a lasting legacy in the field of da‘wah and tabligh.

Zameelur Rahman Rabi‘ al-Thani 1433 H/March 2012




Read the translation NOW here:



Deoband aur Bareli ke Ikhtilaf wa Niza‘ pur:

Fayslah Kun Munazarah

The Decisive Debate:
On the Deobandi and Barelwi Conflict (http://ukkhuddam.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/fayslah-kun-munazarah-updated-translation.pdf)

[abdlashay]

JazakAllah.

May Allah SWT fill the grave of Mawlana Manzur Naumani rehmatullah aleh with noor & raise his status manifold in here-after. Amin!

A must read for those put in doubt and 'fooled' by mainstream sunni propaganda.

was salam

[Ahmad_shakeel]

JazakAllah.

May Allah SWT fill the grave of Mawlana Manzur Naumani rehmatullah aleh with noor & raise his status manifold in here-after. Amin!


was salam

Ameen

[London786]

may ALLAH reward brother zameeul rahman ameen.

[At Tayyib]

JazakAllah.

May Allah SWT fill the grave of Mawlana Manzur Naumani rehmatullah aleh with noor & raise his status manifold in here-after. Amin!

A must read for those put in doubt and 'fooled' by mainstream sunni propaganda.

was salam

I would recommend reading every work of Maulana Manzur Naumani :rahma:. One of the most wholesome Deobandis of the last century. He is the confluence of Darul Uloom Deoband and Nadwatul ulema.

[Aamir]

Mashallah - may Allah Azawajal reward the brother for the translation. A great book...

[The Fake Shaykh]

:jazak:

[SunniSeeker]

:salam:

I have read over the issue regarding the Seal of Prophethood - wouldn't it be better to actually translate the passages of Tazhir an-Nas that Ml. Ahmad Rida Khan found problematic and attach it as an appendix, instead of providing a summary/explanation of what was written?

Even from the summary (p.81) I find the following sentence problematic:

However, coming before or after in this chronological sense, does not in and of itself confer excellence [as, for example, the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) is superior to many prophets who came after him].

I don't want to rely on Ml. Rida Khan's interpretation, nor on a summay by Ml. Numani.

So if the relevant unedited passages could be added (translation) then that would be better, because otherwise this work can also be brushed off as propaganda.

:ws:

[SunniSeeker]

Incidentally, I would also like to know as to why in the Muhannad,
Ml. Khalil Ahmed agrees with Ibn Abidin's assertion of the ibn Abdul Wahhab and his followers as the khawaarij of the time, yet Ml. Numani brushes this of as 'Arab propaganda' in whole book of his??

Do certain deobandis have an ulterior motive when it comes to pacifying wahhabis/salafis in order to gain some sort of benefit from them? I read in an article somewhere that the various groups in the subcontinent all strive to gain the support of the saudis in terms of funding...could this have been one of the ploys??

[SeekerOfGuidance]

:salam:

I have read over the issue regarding the Seal of Prophethood - wouldn't it be better to actually translate the passages of Tazhir an-Nas that Ml. Ahmad Rida Khan found problematic and attach it as an appendix, instead of providing a summary/explanation of what was written?

Even from the summary (p.81) I find the following sentence problematic:

However, coming before or after in this chronological sense, does not in and of itself confer excellence [as, for example, the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) is superior to many prophets who came after him].

I don't want to rely on Ml. Rida Khan's interpretation, nor on a summay by Ml. Numani.

So if the relevant unedited passages could be added (translation) then that would be better, because otherwise this work can also be brushed off as propaganda.

:ws:

:salam:

Regarding the intrinsic virtue in chronological placement, Al-Hakim al-Tirmidhi (from the 3rd Century AH) stated with unequivocal clarity in Kitab Khatm al-Awliya’:

"Indeed the one who is blind to this information, he thinks that the interpretation of “the Seal of the Prophets” is [only] that he is the last of them in being sent. But what virtue is there in this? And what [perfection in] knowledge is there in this? This is the interpretation of ignorant people."

And although there was no shortage of people who would seek excuses to criticise his noble personality, it seems that this particular opinion of his has been spared for over a millennium now.

What is far from ambiguous though, is the occurrence of a malisciously evil injustice. Under the target of one who remanufactures whole paragraphs, distorts, and forges, there is absolutely no personality in our history who is immune from takfir and tabdi'. That some people incline towards focussing on relative non-issues which have reasonable explanations, as a pose to this enormity, betrays a clear prejudice and bias.

The recognition and rectification of any injustice, however small, can only lead to good.

:ws:

[Muzzammil Husayn]

I have read over the issue regarding the Seal of Prophethood - wouldn't it be better to actually translate the passages of Tazhir an-Nas that Ml. Ahmad Rida Khan found problematic and attach it as an appendix
No because they were all addressed by Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani in the text of the book itself. There's a whole section with the title "An Explanation of the Correct Meaning of the Passages from Tahzir al-Nas" (pages 24 -29) which I think you missed, in which all three of the sentences from Tahzir al-Nas which Ahmad Rida Khan distorted are addressed with their proper contexts.


Even from the summary (p.81) I find the following sentence problematic:

However, coming before or after in this chronological sense, does not in and of itself confer excellence [as, for example, the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) is superior to many prophets who came after him].
The same was stated by al-Hakim al-Tirmidhi in the third century Hijri as you'll find in Appendix B of the book. And in the edition of Tahzir al-Nas with Mawlana Hafiz 'Aziz al-Rahman's footnotes, this is proven conclusively (see page 41 here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/26611585/Tahzeer-Un-Naas-Idara-Azizia-by-Sheikh-Qasim-Nanotvi-r-a)), where he shows that time itself plays no factor in the virtue of a thing, but external factors make that chronological placement virtuous or otherwise. For example, Abu Bakr's acceptance of Islam early on is a virtue for the obvious (external) reason that this shows his quickness to accept truth, so here coming later is not a virtue. With the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam) coming later is a virtue for external reasons, not because of the chronological placement itself - as in many cases coming last is a fault rather than a virtue.


So if the relevant unedited passages could be added (translation) then that would be better
There is no need to add them as they are all already there in the reference provided above (pages 24 to 29).


Incidentally, I would also like to know as to why in the Muhannad,
Ml. Khalil Ahmed agrees with Ibn Abidin's assertion of the ibn Abdul Wahhab and his followers as the khawaarij of the time, yet Ml. Numani brushes this of as 'Arab propaganda' in whole book of his?
There are very good reasons why Mawlana Nu'mani says Mawlana Khalil Ahmad's position in Muhannad and his quote from 'Allamah Ibn 'Abidin were based on hearsay and propaganda, and not on an actual investigation into the views of Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his group. In his Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab aur Hindustan ke 'Ulama Haqq, he proves the climate in Makkah and Madinah before Ibn Sa'ud captured the Hijaz in 1924 was extremely anti-Wahhabi/Najdi, and much of what was said about Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab was based on hearsay. He uses Shaykh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan as an example, and uses Nawwab Siddiq Hasan Khan and Shawkani - who despite being ideologically similar to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab strongly opposed him - as proof that the propaganda was very effective. Shaykh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan in his book Khulasat al-Kalam fi Bayan Umara’ Balad al-Haram and al-Durar al-Saniyyahfi al-Radd ‘ala al-Wahhabiyyah says about Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab that he ordered his female followers to shave their heads and he would order his converts during the testimony of faith to declare their parents disbelievers and inhabitants of Hell and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab greatly admired the false prophets of earlier times like Musaylama Kadhdhab and concealed claims of prophethood; Mawlana Nu'mani shows these are all historically unproven and against reason, yet these claims were current in that time due to the deep animosity against Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab; he absolves Shaykh Dahlan of blame, saying he only related the popular falsehoods that were already current in the Hijaz at the time without having investigated Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's books or biography. He quotes Mawlana Husayn Ahmad Madani who lived in Madinah for around 18 years between 1316 and 1333 (1898 - 1915) [i.e. before Ibn Saud came to power] from his al-Shihab al-Thaqib (written before 1910 CE): "The Arabs have special hatred in their heart for him (Muhmammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab) and his followers, such hatred that they do not have for the Jews or the Christians or the Majus or the Hindus."

He also shows Mawlana Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri changed his views regarding the "Najdis" later in his life when - after the advent of Ibn Saud - he lived in Madinah side by side with them. Mawlana Nu'mani quotes two letters from Mawlana Khalil Ahmad, the first of which [written in 1344 H) stated:



Qadi al-Qudat [of the Najdi government] Shaykh ‘Abd Allah ibn Bulayhid, whose residence is close to my residence [in Madinah], I have met with him frequently and I discussed religious issues with him. He is a great scholar. His school is the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama‘ah. Just as is the method of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, he acts on the outward of hadith. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah and Shaykh al-Islam Ibn al-Qayyim are very dear to him and he always keeps them in view. According to our scholars also, these two personalities were scholars of a great rank. He completely loathes innovations and newly-invented matters. He takes Tawhid and Messengership as the core of his faith. In sum, from my experience, he has not moved away from the beliefs of Ahl al-Sunnah in the slightest. Most of the Najdis read the Qur’an, many are huffaz, and they are extremely observant of praying in congregation. These days it is very cold in Madinah Munawwarah, yet the Najdis very observantly attend the Fajr congregation. Anyhow, the religious condition of these people gives contentment. (Akabir ke Khutut pp. 11-12)


(quoted in pages 42 - 43 of Mawlana Nu'mani's book)

Before you jump the gun and claim this to be a "contradiction," Mawlana Nu'mani also eloquently explains that this is very common in our history where scholars differed over personalities based on the information that reached them. He gives several example, including one from the Qur'an: When Musa ('alayhi al-salam) thought Harun ('alayhi al-salam) committed a misdeed, he was extremely angry and even grabbed hold of his hair and beard, but when he realised there was no shortcoming, he said: “My lord forgive me and my brother and admit us in Your mercy.” Many narrators of hadith were declared "trustworthy" by some and "liars" by others - based on the information that reached the critics.

He also explains that Ibn 'Abidin's comment was written after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's followers were expelled from the Hijaz by the Ottoman governer of Egypt and there was a negative attitude adopted by the common people and the rulers alike against him. Ibn 'Abidin did not base his comments on any investigation of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's own works or those of his students. But the fact that he relied on hearsay is clear from his referring to him as "'Abd al-Wahhab" instead of "Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab" which is a mistake only somebody who has not investigated and verified the matter would make.

Mawlana Nu'mani also lists and details the differences between Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's movement and the Deobandi scholars of India, including: they disallow travelling from far with the inention of visiting the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam) although they allow it once a person has reached Madinah and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab in fact called this "one of the best deeds," whereas Deobandis allow long journeys with the intention of visiting him; they declare tawassul forbidden (but do not say it is shirk) while Deobandis - including their predecessor Shah Isma'il in Taqwiyat al-Iman - allow it; they declare istighathah of the dead in all its forms forbidden and shirk, whereas Deobandis - from Mawlana Rashid Ahmad Gangohi himself - differentiate between that done with the correct intention and that done with incorrect beliefs; etc. So, no, Mawlana Nu'mani had no ulterior motives in trying to pacify these "Wahhabis." In the book, he explains that he undertook extensive research into the movement of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab before drawing his conclusions, by reading works by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab himself, the works of his followers and students, the works of supporters and opponents, and the biographies written by contemporaries. His only motive was to arrive at an accurate historical portrayal of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his movement. His book was endorsed by Mawlana Zakariyya Kandehlawi and Qari Muhammad Tayyib.

[The Fake Shaykh]

Can the moderators kindly forward me the email add of brother Muzammil please or pass my email to him :jazak:

[SunniSeeker]

:salam:

:jazak: for your response. I will read the the relevant passages again more carefully. However, I understand that other ulema besides Ml. Ahmad Rida Khan also censured Ml. Qasim wording and explanation. Also, having read the passages the first time, I don't see any negation of the Finalitiy of Prophethood - just that the whole explanation is a tad convoluted and badly worded perhaps.

Your explanation regarding the 'Arab propaganda' doesn't convince me either. I don't think it is possible that so many ulema,who were near contemporaries, would reach such 'wrong' conclusions in relation to a significant event. There may be exaggeration but they wouldn't be completely wide off the mark. Sh. Dahlan (whom the deobandi 'muhaqqiq' Khalid Mahmood accuses of being a british agent) was a historian and would be better placed to pass comment on the topic than Ml. Numani.

You seem to portray a more balanced view of the issues and seem to recognise that there are differences. There are others who claim to be staunch deobandis but appear to be more wahhabi to the extent they are pro-salafi/wahhabi in everything. For example you admit above that the akabir ulema if deoband allow certain types of istighatha, yet others say it is outright shirk in all forms. Same with mawlid etc. some say it is prohibited due to the additions that have occurred therein, but many say it is bida/prohibited period.

I don't understand the issue about trying to exonerate tha saudi salafis/wahhabis in everything either. There is a thread regarding Sh. Hudhaifi here in which Ml. Taliban attests that he has come across a book in which Sh. Hudhaifi declares the deobandis as mushriks! So what is it in the aqida of the deobandis that these 'salafi' ulema find to be shirk, but deobandis don't seem to have a problem with their assertion?

:ws:

[Ahmerkhan]

Assalamualaikum

This is a very valuable information, especially for a layman like me. Jazakumallah to all the people involved in making this info available in English, I look forward to many more valuable information in future through sunniforum.

[Muzzammil Husayn]

Your explanation regarding the 'Arab propaganda' doesn't convince me either
It was not my explanation that I was explaining, but Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani's in his book Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab aur Hindustan ke 'Ulama e Haqq on which you are making judgements without having read.


I don't think it is possible that so many ulema,who were near contemporaries, would reach such 'wrong' conclusions in relation to a significant event. There may be exaggeration but they wouldn't be completely wide off the mark.
There were also many 'ulama who were contemporaries of Imam Abu Hanifah, yet they made wrong judgements on him based on the false propaganda that reached them, and in this case we are at a better position to assess those judgements as false based on our knowledge that it was misinformation that reached them. Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani quotes Shaykh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan and points out that he provides no references for the claims he made, and he proves that his comments were based on hearsay which began much earlier, in the very time of Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab himself, who refuted it and his followers also denied it after him (i.e. many decades before Shaykh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan wrote those things).

For example, Mawlana Nu'mani quotes Shaykh Zayni Dahlan saying the following in his book Khulasat al-Kalam fi Bayan Umara’ Balad al-Haram:



When someone wanted to enter into his [Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab] religion, he would say to him after he produced the two testimonies [of faith], “Bear testimony on yourself that you were a disbeliever, and bear testimony on your parents that they died as disbelievers, and bear testimony on so-and-so and so-and-so,” and naming a group of the great scholars of the past, “that they were disbelievers.” If they bore testimony, he accepted them, and otherwise he ordered their execution. He would clearly state that the ummah had turned apostate for six hundred years, and he would anathematise all who did not follow him, even if from the most god-fearing of the pious men, calling them idolaters and permitting their blood and property. And he would affirm the faith of those who followed him even if the worst of the transgressors. He would excessively degrade the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) with different terms, until his followers would also do that, and one of his followers even said that “my staff is better than Muhammad because benefit can be gained from it in killing a snake etc. and Muhammad is dead and there is no benefit or harm in him at all, and he is deaf and dead.” From that is he would detest blessings being sent on the Prophet and would be offended by listening to it.



And:



In his initial period, he was fascinated in reading the reports of those who falsely claimed prophethood like Musaylamah al-Kadhdhab and al-Sajah and al-Aswad al-‘Anasi and Tulayhah al-Asadi and their types, so he concealed in himself the claim of prophethood, and if it was possible for him to proclaim this claim, he would proclaim it. (p. 229)



The fact that these allegations were addressed by Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab himself and his direct followers, Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani argues, is proof enough that Shaykh Ahmad Zayni Dahlan did not base his conclusions on anything substantive but on, what Mawlana Nu'mani calls, "the tawatur of the commoners" - i.e. some claim has become so widespread and accepted amongst people that no one will hesitate in accepting it as historical fact.

For example, Mawlana Nu'mani quotes a letter of Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab from the year 1204 as follows:

“Peace be upon you and the mercy of Allah and His blessings. As for what follows: A fitnah has occurred which has reached you and others, and its reason is destruction of buildings in our land over the graves of the righteous, and along with this we forbade them from supplicating to the righteous, and we ordered them to purify their supplication for Allah. When we publicised this matter, with what we mentioned of destroying buildings over graves, it became heavy on the common people, and some who claim knowledge supported them for reasons which are not hidden to the likes of you. Thus they spread about us that we curse the righteous, and we are on [a path] besides the path of the ‘ulama. They took the matter to the east and the west, and they said about us things which a sensible person is ashamed to relate. I will tell you what we are upon...Thus, by the grace of Alah, we are followers and not innovators, on the madhhab of Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal...I make Allah and His Angels and I make you witnesses that I am on the religion of Allah and His Messenger and I follow the people of knowledge.”

He said in another letter quoted by Mawlana Nu'mani:

“By Allah’s grace, I am a follower, not an innovator. My belief and my religion which I adopt before Allah is the madhhab of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama‘ah, which the imams of the Muslims are upon like the four imams and their followers...From them [the slanders] is what you mention that I anathematise all people except those who follow me, and I claim that your marriages are void. Alas! How can this enter the mind of a sane person? Does a Muslim say this?...Likewise, their claim that I say if I was able to destroy the dome of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) I would destroy it...In sum, all such explanations [given about my movement] besides calling people to Tawhid and forbidding shirk, are all slanders.”

He also quotes extensively from a document written by the son of Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab from the early part of the thirteenth century the first time when the Saud family captured the Hijaz. Some of what he quotes from this document of 'Abd Allah ibn Muhammad (as documented in a work called al-Durar al-Saniyyah):



Our madhhab in the foundations of religion is the madhhab of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama‘ah, and our method is the method of the Salaf. In peripherals, we are upon the madhhab of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, and we do not denounce anyone who imitates one of the four Imams. We are not deserving of the position of “absolute ijtihad,” and none of us claim it. However, in some issues when a manifest text from the Book or Sunnah is authentic according to us, and not abrogated, restricted or overridden by a stronger [evidence] than it, and one of the four Imams have adopted it, we adopt it and leave the madhhab [of Imam Ahmad]. A group of the Imams of the four madhhabs have come earlier with preferences in some matters against the madhhab in which they adhere to its founder. (pp. 38-9)

As for what has been fabricated against us, concealing the truth and confusing the creation, that we degrade the station of our Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace) by our statement: “the Prophet is dust in his grave, and the staff of one of us is more beneficial to him than him, and he does not have intercession and his visitation is not recommended,” and that we do not rely on the statements of the ‘ulama so we ruin the works of the scholars of the madhhabs because they have in them [both] truth and falsehood; and that we are anthropomorphist; and that we do takfir of people in absolute terms; and in connection with that, that we do not accept the pledge of anyone unless he confesses that he was a mushrik and his parents died on associating partners with Allah; and we forbid sending blessings on the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace); and other [allegations], there is no basis for them, so all these and their likes are falsehoods, and when we are asked about them, our reply in every matter from them is: “Glory be to You! This is a great slander.” (Qur’an, Surah 24) (pp. 40-1)

What we believe is that the position of our Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) is the absolutely highest position of creation, and that he is alive in his grave with an intermediary life (hayat barzakhiyyah) stronger than the life of the martyrs due to the texts documented on it in the Revelation, since he is better than them without doubt; and that he hears the salutation of a Muslim on him; and his visitation is recommended although long journeys are not made [lit. saddles are not tied] except to visit the mosque and pray therein, and when he intends along with that the visitation then there is no harm; and whoever spends his precious time in sending blessings on him (upon him blessings and peace) which were transmitted from him, he will attain happiness in the two worlds, and it will suffice his worries and grief as has come in hadith. (p. 41)

We do not deny the miracles of the saints, and we show recognition of them as due, and that they are on guidance from their Lord as long as they walk the path of the Shari‘ah, and the observed rules, although they do not deserve anything from the types of ritual worship, not during their lifetime nor after their death, rather supplication can be sought from them during their life, rather from every Muslim. (p. 41)

We do not denounce the Sufi way, and the purification of the internal from the vices of sins connected to the heart and limbs, as long as its practitioner remains steadfast on the law of the Shari‘ah, and the straight observed path. However, we do not go out of our way to make favourable interpretation of his speech or his actions. Nor do we depend on, seek help from and rely in all of our affairs except Allah Almighty. He is sufficient for us and a brilliant advocate. (p. 50)


Mawlana Nu'mani also relates his own memories. When he was around 7 years old (i.e. 1912 CE) he remembers a story in which Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab intended to desecrate the blessed body of the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam); he says, that the story was so common in his hometown that it was treated as historical fact. He also mentions another example where during Hajj he met an elderly Arab man who told him that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab rejected the part of the kalimah that says "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah"!

Mawlana Nu'mani also proves this from Mawlana Husayn Ahmad Madani's writings. Mawlana Husayn Ahmad Madani - who lived in Madinah for 17 years between 1898 and 1915 - wrote a book called al-Shihab al-Thaqib in 1910 against the false allegations of Ahmad Rida Khan. Here he mentioned many of the same claims made about Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his movement quoted from Shaykh Dahlan, and others. Later in 1925 when the Saud family again returned to power and Mawlana Husayn Ahmad Madani was able to investigate the matter from first hand sources he publicly announced his retraction of his earlier statements. Mawlana Nu'mani quotes a newspaper (called Zamindar Lahore ) dated May 1925 where Mawlana Husayn Ahmad Madani's exact wording is quoted (which can be read on page 93 of Mawlana Nu'mani's book). Mawlana Madani says clearly that he based his conclusions in al-Shihab al-Thaqib on what was commonly known amongst the people and writings of opponents, and was not based on any serious investigation, and then he said, having studied their authoratitve works he came to the conclusion that the differences between them and Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama‘ah are not as great as was popularised, rather there are only small (juzi) differences for which there is no takfir or tadlil.

Mawlana Nu'mani gives extensive proofs for his opinion that many of the negative writings were based on a negative attitude adopted by the commoners and rulers alike with respect to the Najdi movement. Otherwise, why would scholars like Shawkani and Nawwab Siddiq Hasan (who Nu'mani quotes) - who were ideologically similar to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab - write in very negative terms about him, and propagate some of the same false claims about him which he himself and his direct followers refuted? It is unfair for you to make a judgement on Mawlana Nu'mani's conclusions without first having read his proofs and arguments.


You seem to portray a more balanced view of the issues and seem to recognise that there are differences. There are others who claim to be staunch deobandis but appear to be more wahhabi to the extent they are pro-salafi/wahhabi in everything. For example you admit above that the akabir ulema if deoband allow certain types of istighatha
I only summarised what Mawlana Nu'mani said in the book you claim makes all his books undeserving of serious study - and you have not even read that book as well! I did not say it from myself.

[Talhah]

:salam:

Mashaa Allah brother Zameelur Rahman has done a superb job! Jazahullahu Ahsan al Jazaa. Ameen

[Hafiz Gee]

:salam:

Mashaa Allah brother Zameelur Rahman has done a superb job! Jazahullahu Ahsan al Jazaa. Ameen

Yes, and very time consuming. I'm amazed at how some members take so much time from their schedules to write up detailed replies/responses. Mashallah.

[Talhah]

Yes, and very time consuming. I'm amazed at how some members take so much time from their schedules to write up detailed replies/responses. Mashallah.

Well my reply was not a detailed one.. or were you being ironic? Lol. Was just kidding! : )

I request you for duaaz

[Hafiz Gee]

lol I wasn't referring to your post but Shaykh Muzammil's, but i was reaffirming your statement.

[Aamir]

Jazakallah to brother Muzzammill for the analysis - amazing mashallah.

It would be amazing if other books on the issue could be translated too like;

- Mutala e brelwiyat
- Shihab us Shaqib
- Books of Hazrat Safdar
- Maulna Ilyas Ghumans book on the brelwis too.

Inshallah one day

[SeekerOfGuidance]

:salam:

This book should've been translated sooner. A Barelwi friend of mine was completely shocked after reading this book and said that he never realised that all the cases were so clear cut. There are sincere Barelwis who have been completely deceived by the Barelwi propaganda, aided and abetted by other non-Barelwi so-called sunni scholars.

:ws:

[al_Zayn]

:jazak: for translating this piece Shaykh Zameel.

I have forwarded this to alot of barelwis and barelwi 'inclined' people. Maybe someone should post this on yanabi?

:ws:

[Majlis Raipuri]

AoA7288

[s1dcup]

Fayslah Kun Munazarah ?
How they reached this judgment, please refrain from exporting! by doing this all ignoring the basic teaching of Islam
the first question would be
who is your God and
second , what is your religion
and the last
who is the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and there is no question of sub section
so please …… live and let live!

[Zahed]

Fayslah Kun Munazarah ?
How they reached this judgment, please refrain from exporting! by doing this all ignoring the basic teaching of Islam
the first question would be
who is your God and
second , what is your religion
and the last
who is the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him and there is no question of sub section
so please …… live and let live!

It is an obligatory duty of the scholars to utilize their power against deviants to preserve the real Shariah. Which you can't understand, remain silent about it and pray to Allaah :taala: to give you some basic Ilm.

[s1dcup]

teaching each other to we are the BEST ?and thats why we are this .................................................. ...

[Zahed]

teaching each other to we are the BEST ?and thats why we are this .................................................. ...

This is not the matter of "each" and "other". Haqq is being used to destroy Batil. Islam is a straight path. The scholars of straight path is trying to warn them who are derailed. That's all.

[s1dcup]

Perhaps you need to read more especially THE TIME LINE of the 4 schools of thoughts also the had happened after World War II, what was the plan A and B
By these so called “”scholars of straight path”” dividing the umma rather than unity them and it is in line with the great plan; Reference to plan B ( by Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East) and the plan A was the creating the fitna of Qadianiat)
Read the time line, read the history of Saudi Arabia pre 1910, and amazingly Google have everything except Full History of Saudi Arabia!
As I said in my first reply, we should fiker for our own 6x4 and you may know the hadis for “sscholars” at the near time ………….
Ion the other hand you won’t understand so my salam to you,……

[al_Zayn]

teaching each other to we are the BEST ?and thats why we are this .................................................. ...

If someone accuses you and lies regarding you (regardless being a Scholar or not) wouldn't it not be your personal duty to clear the lies and accusations?

And your wrong the Scholars of Deoband and their affiliates do not go around saying we are the saved sect nor do they mass-produce pamphlets / leaflets via petro dollars saying such thing, they are (if they inherit true legacy of the 'Ulama) humble.

[al_Zayn]

you may know the hadis for “sscholars” at the near time ………….
Ion the other hand you won’t understand so my salam to you,……

Yes there are many Ahadith, Scholars will die slowly taking knowledge away, those few Scholars will fight against heresy and sects like in Hind. And also Juhaals will take their position they "think" they know it all.

[s1dcup]

you need to READ more and there are 6666 ayats in Quran!

[al_Zayn]

you need to READ more and there are 6666 ayats in Quran!

You mean the little over 6200 Ayat? :jazak: i will read it, but you need to get out of your box.

[Zahed]

Perhaps you need to read more especially THE TIME LINE of the 4 schools of thoughts also the had happened after World War II, what was the plan A and B
By these so called “”scholars of straight path”” dividing the umma rather than unity them and it is in line with the great plan; Reference to plan B ( by Mr. Hempher, The British Spy To The Middle East) and the plan A was the creating the fitna of Qadianiat)
Read the time line, read the history of Saudi Arabia pre 1910, and amazingly Google have everything except Full History of Saudi Arabia!
As I said in my first reply, we should fiker for our own 6x4 and you may know the hadis for “sscholars” at the near time ………….
Ion the other hand you won’t understand so my salam to you,……

Don't teach me history. Everyone know who fought against the British and saved the Ummah from their oppression. We also know who are spoiling Deen by innovations. This thread is making you angry which means it goes against your and your Ala Hazrat's ideology.

[s1dcup]

salam to all , i m happy in my Box

[Zahed]

salam to all , i m happy in my Box

Is it the Sunnah method of giving Salaam?

The sky is blue. Why? Because milk is white. So, Deobandis are Kafir. Ala Hazrat zindabad.

[s1dcup]

i'm not coming to your level and answer someone arrogant

[Zahed]

i'm not coming to your level and answer someone arrogant

May Allaah :taala: guide you.

[s1dcup]

6x4 not that far ........................

[al_Zayn]

6x4 not that far ........................

Then prepare for it.

[s1dcup]

ditto

[Abu Hamza Deccani]

:salam:
is this book available online? Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani " Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab aur Hindustan ke 'Ulama e Haqq".
And a english translation will be better also to save many unsuspecting sunnis from traditionalist and barelwi propaganda on the net.

[Saad]

:salam:
is this book available online? Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani " Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab aur Hindustan ke 'Ulama e Haqq".
And a english translation will be better also to save many unsuspecting sunnis from traditionalist and barelwi propaganda on the net.

http://www.4shared.com/office/g6St2DNC/Shaykh_Abdul_Wahhab_aur_Hindus.html

[AYK1399]

What about the book pertaining to the thread, namely, "fayslah Kun Munazarah", is the original Urdu also available online?

[Abu Hamza Deccani]

http://www.4shared.com/office/g6St2DNC/Shaykh_Abdul_Wahhab_aur_Hindus.html
:salam:
Jazakallahkhair. By the way, Saad bhai, do you somehow intend to translate it to english in the near future?

[Propagating_Haq]

mashallah a much needed translation. May Allah accept your efforts. Is it possible to get hard copies of this work? if so where can they be ordered from? jzk

[Muzzammil Husayn]

What about the book pertaining to the thread, namely, "fayslah Kun Munazarah", is the original Urdu also available online?
http://www.scribd.com/doc/27212348/Faisla-Kun-Munazra-by-Sheikh-Muhammad-Manzoor-Nomani-r-a

http://www.4shared.com/office/y6TF1ceQ/Faisla_Kun_Munazra_By_SHEIKH_M.html

[haqwala]

Asslamualikum does any one have the contact details for Zameelur-Rahman i would like to thank him personally and discuss other works of the true ahle sunnah wal jamat the scholars of Deoband.

[Syed_1]

Where does Maulana anzar shah qasmi lives in banglore.plz tell me.i am new on forum.i tried to comtact or write anything on forum,some how i came here.plz reply me.reply me so that i know the answer,like message me personally or something like that.jazakallah

[Muzzammil Husayn]

Read the translation NOW here:

Fayslah Kun Munazarah (http://ukkhuddam.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/fayslah-kun-munazarah-updated-translation.pdf)
On pages 66-7, Mawlana Manzur Nu'mani quotes a couple of hadiths to support the meaning of the narration "I do not know what is behind this wall of mine" as follows:


And ignoring all those things, there is no doubt that the narration is true in its meaning, and many authentic hadiths support its content. For example, in the two Sahihs and Sunan al-Nasa’i, it is narrated from Zaynab, the wife of Ibn Mas‘ud (Allah be pleased with them), that in order to ask a question she wanted to ask regarding Zakat, she came to the door of the Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace), and when she reached there, another Ansari wife was standing there with the same need. Then Hazrat Bilal (Allah be pleased with him) came to them and she said to him: “Go to the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and inform him that two women are at the door asking you: ‘Is charity permissible on their behalf for their husbands and for the orphans in their care,’ and don’t inform him who we are.” So Bilal asked him, and the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said to him “Who are they?” he said: “A woman from the Ansar and Zaynab.” He said to him “Which Zaynab?” He said: “The wife of ‘Abd Allah [ibn Mas‘ud].” He said: “For them are two rewards: the reward of [maintaining good] relations, and the reward of charity.”

Thus, if the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) knew all matters behind a wall, what was the need for him to ask Hazrat Bilal (Allah be pleased with him) about the names? Then, after inquiring about their names and knowing that it is Zaynab, he asked “which Zaynab?” This is clear proof that he did not know some matters behind a wall.

Furthermore, in the last days of his pure life in the state of illness, in order to see his congregation, the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) went to the door of his blessed chamber, and opening the curtain, he saw those praying in congregation in the Prophetic Mosque - which is mentioned in the authentic books. Specifically during the final days he repeatedly asked: “Are the people praying?” Yet between the blessed mosque and the noble chamber was only one wall. This is clear proof that the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) did not know some matters behind a wall. Thus, if it is narrated in any hadith, “By Allah, I do not know what is behind this wall of mine” or as he (upon him blessing and peace) said, what is so farfetched and repulsive about it? Rather, nobody can dare deny the correctness of the meaning of this narration.

There is another narration I came across from the Sahihs of Bukhari and Muslim which demonstrates the meaning of this narration more clearly:

Sahl ibn Sa'd narrates:


اطلع رجل من جحر في حجرة النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - ومع النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - مدرى يحك به رأسه فقال : لو أعلم أنك تنظرني لطعنت به في عينك ، إنما جعل الاستئذان من أجل النظر

"A man peaked through a hole in the lodging of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) and the Prophet had a comb with which he was scratching his head. Later [when he realised what the man did], he said: 'Had I known that you were looking, I would have jabbed it [i.e. the comb] into your eye! Asking permission [to enter a house] was only prescribed for the purpose of looking.'"

This hadith almost explicitly holds the same meaning as the narration: "I do not know what is behind this wall of mine," as the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) stated that had he known he would have jabbed this man's eye, and since he did not do so, it follows that he did not know.

Sahl ibn Sa'd was one of the younger Sahabah, so this event probably happened late in the lifetime of the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace).

[ghauspaak]

Waste of time.

No point Debating with Barelvi's