Women deficient in intelligence?

[Bird]

Asalamu Alaykum

This is a legitimate question. I am NOT starting this thread in order to debate or fight, so please don't misunderstand me. I also don't want any hyper-feminists or misogynists posting and ruining the thread, either.

The hadith "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you (women)" really confuses me. I am not bragging, audhubillah, but I have always been the most intelligent person in my classes. Since I was young, I always got the highest scores, the 99% percentile in the school. In my country, women, on average, score higher than the men and also more women graduate from college.

Are there different types of intellect? Because if there is only one type, I'm really not seeing how females are dumber than males.
And what of the female scholars of Quran and Hadith? Should they be ignored after their years of research? I am really confused on this subject.

Something else. "Salat becomes null and void if a dog, a donkey, or a woman comes in front". I thought salah becomes invalid if anything passes in front of a praying muslim?

:jazak:

[AlGhuraba]

:salam:
I asked an aalimah and she said it means on average men are smarter but there are women who are smarter than men, but this is not always the case, more rarer. I think we can all attest to this fact.
the hadith is meant to be general, women are generally less intelligent than men, and i dont see how anyone can say that's not true, i am a woman and i've been saying this since ages.

[mmb786]

woman are definitely less intelligent than men but they know how to USE and appreciate the little they have, whereas men :inna: :astagh: may ALLAH save us from even the topic!

[sudoku]

^ Now, now let's not generalize :-)

[Bird]

My second question was not addressed. I asked about the Female scholars. :)

[Caliph]

Salah is invalid from dog donkey and woman, not from males etc.

But litsen ukhti, females have smaller brains than males, that is a scientefic fact. They just use it for other purposes. But in religion, then yes women are generally dumber than men, they are also gonna form a majority in hellfire.

Anyways, if you work hard you wont be less intelligent than males, especially these times where men are imitating women.
W/salam.

[Bird]

woman are definitely less intelligent than men but they know how to USE and appreciate the little they have, whereas men :inna: :astagh: may ALLAH save us from even the topic!

Men, on average, score only four points higher on IQ tests than women. That is not very much difference, and was attributed to overall brain size (men are usually larger than women). But this was a limited study, obviously, as one cannot test the entire world population.

But most of the political problems and wars on earth were caused by "educated" men, so I find it very hard to believe men are more intelligent! Women are driven by their emotions and men are driven by their desires, doesn't that make us equally stupid? :D lol

[mercyofAllah]

:bism:
Recently I read that just bcos the brain size is larger, it doesn't mean the person should be more intelligent. It was observed that a foolish person had a bigger brain size. This was answered in a tamil magazine when this question was posed. I think intelligence is more to do with the convulutions. ALlahu alam
Khair whatever the Prophet SAW said should be true as whatever he SAW says, there is the guidance of Allah SWT behind his SAW words, the Most truthful and the All aware. Anyway most of the time, we fail to understand the context of hadeeth and it can be taken in wrong sense.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.h tm

I do not how correct is the explanation given in the above link regarding the same. As I am not too sure I will just leave it to the scholars.

[abd7861]

:salam:

The meaning of this Hadith is explained in another hadith where Rasulullah :saw: explains what he means. I read it Tafseer Ibn Kathir. Deficiency in intelligence is the fact that Allah Ta'ala has equated two female witnesses to one man and deficiency in religion is that fact that women miss the obligatory ibaadah due to haidh, nifaas etc..

Another point to remember that the Sahaabiyaat were also aware of this same hadith and they accepted it fully as it came from Rasulullah :saw:. This acceptance of theirs enabled them to reach the height of respect, foresight and piety. Rasulullah :saw: was in no way demeaning women he was stating a fact. This is easily thrown into perspective as their are some aspects of Islam that a lady will achieve more reward than any man could ever attain (i.e. the pains of motherhood, childbearing etc..).

I am not a scholar and the above is just my understanding of what I have read. If I have erred May Allah :taala: forgive me.

:ws:

[ummitaalib]

woman are definitely less intelligent than men but they know how to USE and appreciate the little they have, whereas men :inna: :astagh: may ALLAH save us from even the topic!

Lol! i do love you sis mmb!!
ok the following is a write up so if it is correct it is from the fadhl of Allah subhaanahu wata'ala and if not it is from my own definciency (as sis mercyofAllah says the wordds of our Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alayhi wasallam can be be anything but the truth......

“A WOMAN’S DEFICIENCY IN REASON & RELIGION”

Shaykh Riyadhul Haqq on Lesson 52 (Darse Hadith), “Laws of Chronic Bleeding”, explains the following hadith which refers to women’s “deficiency in reason and religion”:

Hadrat Abu Sa’eed Khudri R.A. reported;

‘(Once) the Messenger of Allah S.A.W. was going to the eidghah on the eve of Eid or Sacrificial Eid. (On the way) he passed by some women. Addressing them he said:
“O women! Give away in Sadaqah for I see women in majority in hell.”

The women enquired: “Why so, O Allah’s Messenger?”
He replied: “This is because you invoke too many curses and are ungrateful to your husbands. (Further he observed) I have not seen anyone excel women in knocking out the reason of a very shrewd man even though they themselves are deficient in reason and religion.”

The women submitted:
“O Messenger of Allah! What is the deficiency in our reason and religion?”

He said: “Don’t you know that the evidence of a woman is equal to half of a man’s evidence?”
They submitted: “Yes, this is so.”
He said: “This is because she is deficient in reason.”
Further he observed: “Is it not a fact that while she is in menses,
a woman (according to the order of Shari’at) neither offers salat nor observes fast?”
The women submitted: “Yes, that is right.”
“This is deficiency in her religion.” Hadith copied from “A Gift for Muslim Women”by Maulana Ashiq Elahi Madani page 786

Shaykh Riyadhul Haqq explains (on side A-halfway & continues to side B)

This missing of the salaat and the fast during menstruation is in fact the deficiency in the woman’s religion, and the testimony of a woman being similar to half of that of man, is the deficiency in her reasoning. This does not mean that men are inherently far more intelligent than women, i.e. all men are intelligent and all women are not, this is not so.

With regards to her testimony being half of that of a man – and this in the Qur’an- in case one woman forgets, the other reminds her. This is because women suffer from emotional and psychological stresses and pressures in pregnancy and afterwards and during menstruation and bringing up children etc.

The memory loss, erratic behaviour is part of their physiological makeup. They have no control over it. It does not mean the condition is permanent, but women do suffer from this, and since Allah put upon women these stresses and pressures of menstruation, pregnancy etc, the symptoms that go along with it are also imposed upon them by Allah. In His Wisdom Allah has made the testimony of women half of a man’s, and to object to the Qur’an is kufr.

In fact the Ulama say that the women asking the Prophet S.A.W. what the deficiency was, proved the Prophet’s point, as instead of those women pondering over the cursing and being ungrateful to their husbands they asked this question.

Further explained by Maulana Ashiq Elahi Madani in “A gift for Muslim Women”;

The deficiency in a woman’s religion is that in her monthly courses she is deprived of prayer and fasting. Now a woman might raise a question in her heart as to what is the fault of women in this case? The menses are a decree of nature and Shari’at itself has forbidden them to observe prayer and fast during the menstrual period.

The answer to this question is that no doubt the process is natural and the Shari’at too has restrained them from prayer and fasting in this period, yet the fact remains that they are deprived of the blessings of prayer and fasting during their menses. It is in deference to their natural course that they are exempted from the duty of offering prayer in the days of menstrual discharge. Now a woman may ask why has Allah put this restraint upon us? To raise such a question is tantamount to interfering with the wise scheme of Allah and objecting to His Providence and Will.

This is similar to arguing that those who perform hajj will get the reward for it and those who cant, wont get the reward. Now if a man who cannot afford hajj raises the question: Why hasn’t Allah given me the means for hajj, it will be counted as a foolish question and an evidence of his deficient reasoning. The Qur’an says:

“Do not wish for a thing in regard to which Allah has raised some above the others”

[Aram]

:ws:

hmmm im not sure if this is just me...but that hadith in particular.. people don't pay as much attention to the bit where it says

A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you

it also puts in question the intelligence of men or at-least points out their weakeness too

sensible men being led astray by unintelligent women?....how sensible are the men?

[NNoor]

:salam:

From my personal experience:

Women are generally better students and harder-working than men. However, I believe men are better at logical reasoning, and can get away with studying less (in general). Usually, I've noticed that if a man and a woman have the same results in school, the woman has to work harder for it. But since most men are lazy bums (like me), women tend to get better grades.

I'm not sure what the scholars have said about the hadith, but when I read this:

The women enquired: “Why so, O Allah’s Messenger?”
He replied: “This is because you invoke too many curses and are ungrateful to your husbands. (Further he observed) I have not seen anyone excel women in knocking out the reason of a very shrewd man even though they themselves are deficient in reason and religion.”

I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.

[sudoku]

^ This is actually a rather apt observation.

[dr76]

:salam:

From my personal experience:

Women are generally better students and harder-working than men. However, I believe men are better at logical reasoning, and can get away with studying less (in general). Usually, I've noticed that if a man and a woman have the same results in school, the woman has to work harder for it. But since most men are lazy bums (like me), women tend to get better grades.

I'm not sure what the scholars have said about the hadith, but when I read this:

The women enquired: “Why so, O Allah’s Messenger?”
He replied: “This is because you invoke too many curses and are ungrateful to your husbands. (Further he observed) I have not seen anyone excel women in knocking out the reason of a very shrewd man even though they themselves are deficient in reason and religion.”

I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.

:salam:

a good observation.. more like someone said.. When i found all lifes answers.. they changed the questions.. :)

wa assalam..

[Bird]

I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.

My own female family members do this to me all the time, especially my mother. When one of them gets all emotional on me, she screams that I am useless and have never done anything good, my argument is invalid, ect. I also know a few men who act this way when angry. But, I never understood why people do this. I have never caught myself doing this, although I suppose I wouldn't recognize if it I were angry. I rarely get angry... of course, I don't have a spouse to get angry at either :lol:

[ummitaalib]

:salam:

From my personal experience:

Women are generally better students and harder-working than men. However, I believe men are better at logical reasoning, and can get away with studying less (in general). Usually, I've noticed that if a man and a woman have the same results in school, the woman has to work harder for it. But since most men are lazy bums (like me), women tend to get better grades.

I'm not sure what the scholars have said about the hadith, but when I read this:

The women enquired: “Why so, O Allah’s Messenger?”
He replied: “This is because you invoke too many curses and are ungrateful to your husbands. (Further he observed) I have not seen anyone excel women in knocking out the reason of a very shrewd man even though they themselves are deficient in reason and religion.”

I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.

yup very true in most cases.....and funny too. However I thought the words you highlighted were regarding how men are weak when it comes to being attracted to women i.e. their reasoning and shrewdness is knocked out when they come across the charms of women???

[mercyofAllah]

:bism:
Too much of generalization in the thread.

[ummitaalib]

. I rarely get angry... of course, I don't have a spouse to get angry at either :lol:
assalaamu 'alaykum...lol many of us "rarely got angry" before... wait till you get married sister then come and tell us! If you still dont get angry then either you have an angelic husband or you yourself are!

[Nasrullah242]

:salam:

The meaning of this Hadith is explained in another hadith where Rasulullah :saw: explains what he means. I read it Tafseer Ibn Kathir. Deficiency in intelligence is the fact that Allah Ta'ala has equated two female witnesses to one man and deficiency in religion is that fact that women miss the obligatory ibaadah due to haidh, nifaas etc..

Another point to remember that the Sahaabiyaat were also aware of this same hadith and they accepted it fully as it came from Rasulullah :saw:. This acceptance of theirs enabled them to reach the height of respect, foresight and piety. Rasulullah :saw: was in no way demeaning women he was stating a fact. This is easily thrown into perspective as their are some aspects of Islam that a lady will achieve more reward than any man could ever attain (i.e. the pains of motherhood, childbearing etc..).

I am not a scholar and the above is just my understanding of what I have read. If I have erred May Allah :taala: forgive me.

:ws:

:salam:

JK you saved me the trouble with this post which is what I wanted to write, also I remember someone explaining that this deficiency is also a result of Women being more emotional than males and letting that interfere with their judgement. For example if a child misbehaves usually mothers will be good cop and stick up for the child and the father is usually the one complaining that she is too lenient.


and Allah knows best
:ws:

[ummitaalib]

:bism:
Too much of generalization in the thread.
dont worry sis mercy....lets not forget:

A chaste woman who is mindful of Salaat, Fasting and also serves her husband, for her all the 8 doors of Jannat are opened. She may enter from whichever door she likes

and quotes such as:

A single pious practicing woman is equal to 70 Aulia-e-Kiraam (the awesome in God-fearing).

We are what our Lord has made us and we try to please Him insha Allah

[mercyofAllah]

dont worry sis mercy....lets not forget:

A chaste woman who is mindful of Salaat, Fasting and also serves her husband, for her all the 8 doors of Jannat are opened. She may enter from whichever door she likes

and quotes such as:

A single pious practicing woman is equal to 70 Aulia-e-Kiraam (the awesome in God-fearing).

We are what our Lord has made us and we try to please Him insha Allah
:bism:
Let Allah SWT make us all pleasing to him. Ameen

[Acacia]

:bism:

:salam:

:jazak: sister Ummitaalib.

Also, let's not forget that women were some of the closest companions of Rasulullah :saw: and that 1/4 of our deen relies on narrations from women. Very senior ulema used to narrate from women and a woman's narration is equal to a man's - this shows that honesty & trustworthiness are accorded to women by Allah (SWT).

Rasulullah designated a specific day of the week for the education of women & this shows the importance he placed on the education of women

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but, even when women are unable to pray and receive the specific reward for prayer, they aren't deprived of reward altogether - they can do dhikr and receive reward for their dhikr insha'Allah.

:ws:

[mmb786]

Good posts so far....! Is it really genuinely true that a males brain is larger and heavier than a females or is it some kind of a....... joke?

[mercyofAllah]

Good posts so far....! Is it really genuinely true that a males brain is larger and heavier than a females or is it some kind of a....... joke?
:bism:
I think so but that said as I posted before that cannot be taken as a reason for intelligence. Allahu alam

[dr76]

just like a light bulb.. the bigger the brighter..

(just kidding)..

[Sulaiman84]

:salam:

Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. With Deen, both men and women can compliment each other. Without Deen, both can succumb to each others weakness.

Follow Deen whoever and whatever you are and you'll be alright, :insh:.

[Maripat]

When Allah (SWT) has told us in the Noble Qur'an that man and woman are equal then we should not conclude that one is deficient in some facility unless otherwise stated by Allah (SWT) Himself. Also when Allah (SWT) says in the same Verse that man has slight preference over woman then also the conclusion does not change because this latter phrase is a tie breaker.

If we agree on that then there is at least one benefit. This shall lift the pressure from women to prove themselves equal to man. Just think of the slogan that is so common today - what is it than man can do woman can not do? Or the news item like another bastion of man falls - first all female battalion commissioned.

[mmb786]

If you ask me reason for males having a bigger brain (that's if its true) it goes like this.......

They don't use their intelligence and so its swells up in the brain. It gets bigger, bigger and BIGGER until eventually it goes............ PoP and then WHHHHOOoooooOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH...

And all the poor guy can do is stand there, sadly staring at all his intelligence flying to the moon :(

But from the beginning if they use their brains as ALLAH instructed them to, by being a proper upright muslim, using the mind for the right thing in the right way they will inshaAllah avoid this huge tragedy altogether.

Btw the first part is just a joke of course.

[Abu Zakir]

Asalamu Alaykum

This is a legitimate question. I am NOT starting this thread in order to debate or fight, so please don't misunderstand me. I also don't want any hyper-feminists or misogynists posting and ruining the thread, either.

The hadith "I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you (women)" really confuses me. I am not bragging, audhubillah, but I have always been the most intelligent person in my classes. Since I was young, I always got the highest scores, the 99% percentile in the school. In my country, women, on average, score higher than the men and also more women graduate from college.

Are there different types of intellect? Because if there is only one type, I'm really not seeing how females are dumber than males.
And what of the female scholars of Quran and Hadith? Should they be ignored after their years of research? I am really confused on this subject.

Just because someone does well in school does not mean they are intelligent, there are different types of intelligences (emotional, social, intellectual, and or good with their dexterity hands, eyes, art etc.). Men today have largely become effeminate and have lost their masculinity so it is not a fair comparison today when comparing men with women. Men have become feminised because men have had less to do with bringing up male children, and women have made the men too soft. Some men over compensate their femininity my adopting a jahil macho culture. Where they think it is manly to beat women and to be mean towards them. The feminization of men may also be a consequence of drinking water etc. being contaminated with female hormones due to the use of the birth control pill etc. Maybe some people have suggested this is the meaning of the hadith which states that there will be 50 women to any 1 man towards the end of time.


Something else. "Salat becomes null and void if a dog, a donkey, or a woman comes in front". I thought salah becomes invalid if anything passes in front of a praying muslim?

:jazak

I think this might be because a woman walking in front of the man during prayer may distract the man sexually, not because the woman is similar in status to a donkey or dog. Though of course many humans including men and women are like donkeys and dogs sometimes. Imam Al Gazali said each human has a 'pig' and a 'dog' as part of their nafs and only very few people gain control of these two aspects of their own character and those of us who become enslaved to these often look like donkeys and dogs in terms of character.

[Acacia]

:salam:

Men and women have different strengths and weaknesses. With Deen, both men and women can compliment each other. Without Deen, both can succumb to each others weakness.

Follow Deen whoever and whatever you are and you'll be alright, :insh:.

:thumbsup:

[Zahed]

:salam:

Here, on SF, we don't find male moderators frequently (even some of them can't be brought back by opening polls). But we get sister sudoku on most of the threads.

[TripolySunni]

LinkAlink
http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.h tm

[SeekerOfGuidance]

:salam:



Our 'common sense' is very subjective and is hugely influenced by our surroundings.

If someone says that men are generally physically stronger than women, isn't that strictly speaking a sexist comment?

This does not negate the possiblity that there exists women who are stronger than many men, just as there exists women who intelligent than many men.

There are many similar comparative comments that one could make such as:

Men are generally bigger than women.

Women are generally more sensitive and caring than men.

Although the above comparisons may not have been confirmed by the Prophet we are willing to accept them wholeheartedly because it fits well with our 'common sense'. Yet we are unwilling to accept the Prophet's explicit statement regarding women's intelligence.

The fact that something doesn't sit comfortably with our 'common sense' should never be the basis on which to reject something. A major part of our 'common sense' has been formed by the unislamic society and environment in which we live in. That is why Muslims influenced by the west may find it slightly uncomfortable to accept many of the Islamic concepts - the hudud punishments, apostasy laws, etc.

If any part of religion, be it a verse, a Hadith, or a ruling, seems distasteful to our 'common sense' then attribute it to a weakness in our Iman and understanding, not the deen of Allah.


:ws:

[mh16388]

:salam:

From my personal experience:

Women are generally better students and harder-working than men. However, I believe men are better at logical reasoning, and can get away with studying less (in general). Usually, I've noticed that if a man and a woman have the same results in school, the woman has to work harder for it. But since most men are lazy bums (like me), women tend to get better grades.

aoa,
i teach final year university students. was just checking their lab reports. you are spot on. the girls work soooo hard. guys...lol...but despite scoring less on the lab reports guys generally performed better than girls on the exam i gave them few weeks back : p.


I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.
the same can be said for atheists : p (no offence to ladies..or atheists stalking this this thread)

[mh16388]

:salam:

Here, on SF, we don't find male moderators frequently (even some of them can't be brought back by opening polls). But we get sister sudoku on most of the threads.

lol what is that even supposed to mean?

[mh16388]

every man is super attracted to women.
fact.

[TripolySunni]

every man is super attracted to women.
fact.

You uncovered the secret! :o

[TripolySunni]

:salam:

Here, on SF, we don't find male moderators frequently (even some of them can't be brought back by opening polls). But we get sister sudoku on most of the threads.

It's because the forum needs new mods.

[a.s.]

Lets also not forget, Allah has mentioned some of the most pious women in the Qur'an, Asiya (as) and Maryam (as)

Maryam (as) has a whole surah of the Qur'an name after her.
And Allah gave Maryam such a high status and chose her among all other women of the world.
"Behold! the angels said, "O Maryam! Allaah has chosen you and purified you, chosen you above the women of all nations." [3:42]

A'isha, Khadija and Fatima (ra) are all amazingly pious women.

"The Messenger of Allaah (saw) drew four lines and said, "Do you know what these are?" They said, "Allaah and His Messenger know best." He said, "The best women of Paradise are Khadeejah bint Khuwaylid, Faatimah bint Muhammad, Maryam bint 'Imraan and Aasiyah bin Muzahim, the wife of Fir'awn" [Silsilat al-Hadith as-Saheehah, 4/13, no. 1508, from Ahmad at-Tahhaawi, al-Haakim from Ibn 'Abbaas, saheeh]

[Auzer]

Women aren't deficient in any thing. Some girls are smarter than boys and some boys are smarter etc. It is that in Muslim countries , where women are oppressed , girls don't get the same opportunities as guys do. Girls don't get to go out of the home and interact with the outer wide world. It leads to the "under-development" of confidence in girls. Mostly girls are shy and guys , who get to go outside and experience the world more, form a way bigger perspective on life naturally and when they talk to girls ...Their feeling is like "duhh you don't even know anything what you're talking about. In real world , things doesn't work that way" and hence guys think that they are "smarter" because they know more.

If you put guys in the roles of girls in Muslim societies...I bet girls will come out to be the one with more "aqaal" than guys. Its natural...more experience..better perspective on things.

Plus , Girls are emotional while guys are ambitious. Probably thats why you'll see more guys in the field of politics , technology-innovation etc....it doesn't necessarily mean that guys are "superior" in intelligence.

[Zahed]

lol what is that even supposed to mean?

I've just shown a paradigm. Women do their work relentlessly (whether defficient in intelligence or not) but men.............

[byellow200]

Mufti Zarwali Khan praise the female students in one of his dars.

[Bird]

Jazakallah Khair for all of your replies


Good posts so far....! Is it really genuinely true that a males brain is larger and heavier than a females or is it some kind of a....... joke?
Yes Sister, it is true in most cases. Men are naturally larger than women. But it is certain parts of the brain that need to be larger for more intelligence, not the brain as a whole. It all depends on how Allah swt develops us.


When Allah (SWT) has told us in the Noble Qur'an that man and woman are equal then we should not conclude that one is deficient in some facility unless otherwise stated by Allah (SWT) Himself. Also when Allah (SWT) says in the same Verse that man has slight preference over woman then also the conclusion does not change because this latter phrase is a tie breaker.

If we agree on that then there is at least one benefit. This shall lift the pressure from women to prove themselves equal to man. Just think of the slogan that is so common today - what is it than man can do woman can not do? Or the news item like another bastion of man falls - first all female battalion commissioned.
I wholeheartedly agree with this post.


Just because someone does well in school does not mean they are intelligent, there are different types of intelligences (emotional, social, intellectual, and or good with their dexterity hands, eyes, art etc.). Men today have largely become effeminate and have lost their masculinity so it is not a fair comparison today when comparing men with women. Men have become feminised because men have had less to do with bringing up male children, and women have made the men too soft. Some men over compensate their femininity my adopting a jahil macho culture. Where they think it is manly to beat women and to be mean towards them. The feminization of men may also be a consequence of drinking water etc. being contaminated with female hormones due to the use of the birth control pill etc. Maybe some people have suggested this is the meaning of the hadith which states that there will be 50 women to any 1 man towards the end of time.
I respectfully disagree. I do not think that all men in general are feminized, while many more are effeminate compared to the past, I do not think the majority of them are. This is an insult to all men. I do despise machismo and riya (showing off), but I do not think it is linked with feminization of males as much as misogyny.



I think this might be because a woman walking in front of the man during prayer may distract the man sexually, not because the woman is similar in status to a donkey or dog. Though of course many humans including men and women are like donkeys and dogs sometimes. Imam Al Gazali said each human has a 'pig' and a 'dog' as part of their nafs and only very few people gain control of these two aspects of their own character and those of us who become enslaved to these often look like donkeys and dogs in terms of character.
I do agree with this, but my Imam told me that anything passing in front of a muslim, behind the sutra, invalidates his salah.


Women aren't deficient in any thing. Some girls are ...blah blah
Not to sound rude, but I specifically asked that no misogynists or hyper-feminists ruin my thread. You, sir, are beyond hyper.

[NNoor]

:salam:

Actually, according to the ahnaf at least, salah is not invalidated by anything passing in front (meaning it does not have to be repeated).

[mmb786]

Women aren't deficient in any thing. Some girls are smarter than boys and some boys are smarter etc. It is that in Muslim countries , where women are oppressed , girls don't get the same opportunities as guys do. Girls don't get to go out of the home and interact with the outer wide world. It leads to the "under-development" of confidence in girls. Mostly girls are shy and guys , who get to go outside and experience the world more, form a way bigger perspective on life naturally and when they talk to girls ...Their feeling is like "duhh you don't even know anything what you're talking about. In real world , things doesn't work that way" and hence guys think that they are "smarter" because they know more.

If you put guys in the roles of girls in Muslim societies...I bet girls will come out to be the one with more "aqaal" than guys. Its natural...more experience..better perspective on things.

Plus , Girls are emotional while guys are ambitious. Probably thats why you'll see more guys in the field of politics , technology-innovation etc....it doesn't necessarily mean that guys are "superior" in intelligence.


Yay yay yay Bro. Please don't talk nonsense. Women are not stupid at all but Nabi :saw: finish tell us that they, i mean we (ahem) are Naqis-u-Aqal. Finish and klaar! And He :saw: only spoke the truth - and nothing but the truth so we know that there is something slightly wrong with our minds and are perfectly happy with it that way :alhamd:....
So yes! you can call it quits trying to convince us that we are more superior in intelligence than men coz we won't believe you.

:jazak:

[malone]

so we know that there is something slightly wrong with our minds and are perfectly happy with it that way
:jazak:

Speak for yourself.

[malone]

:salam:

From my personal experience:

Women are generally better students and harder-working than men. However, I believe men are better at logical reasoning, and can get away with studying less (in general). Usually, I've noticed that if a man and a woman have the same results in school, the woman has to work harder for it. But since most men are lazy bums (like me), women tend to get better grades.

I'm not sure what the scholars have said about the hadith, but when I read this:

The women enquired: “Why so, O Allah’s Messenger?”
He replied: “This is because you invoke too many curses and are ungrateful to your husbands. (Further he observed) I have not seen anyone excel women in knocking out the reason of a very shrewd man even though they themselves are deficient in reason and religion.”

I was immediately able to relate. As any man who has ever had an argument with a woman can attest, you ladies are all too happy to throw logic out the window. We can never win an argument with you, because you refuse to acknowledge when you're wrong. And if we try to appeal to logical arguments to prove our point, it only enrages you further. Not only this, you ladies often play dirty in an argument, resorting to emotional blackmail and bringing up mistakes we made ages ago, even though it has nothing to do with the argument.

I don't say this out of spite (I actually find it kind of funny); just sharing my own personal experience.

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.

The above is the women you've chose to have around you and you should understand that this is your environment. My experience is very different Most of the men I know in my family cannot stand it when a women is correct, no matter how logical they present their argument the men get more and more frustrated the more and more wrong they are. Then they just yell BUS! I'VE MADE A DECISION and he goes off and acts like he is inthe right. But at least I know my experience is limited and I would not think all men are like this.

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

[ahmad12]

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

So you have left Islam because you do not like what it says? How logically fallacious that decision is. If Islam is proven to be true, then everything that comes with it is true regardless of how you feel about it. An alcoholic cannot reject Islam on the basis that Islam prohibits alcohol (just because he himself is addicted to it and cannot understand the idea why prohibition of alcohol would be commanded by God). He must submit his will to God.

It's like someone refusing to believe that they failed their Maths test just because they don't like the idea of failing their maths test. You do not like the idea or the words of this hadith and so you reject Islam totally because of it, rather than realising that since Islam is from God (and we can prove this), the hadith MUST be true and you MUST accept the words of the Messenger :saw: of God because they MUST be true

And it is ironic that you apostate based on emotions and not reason and yet you dislike a hadith that talks about such a deficiency of women... you just proved our point

[NNoor]

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.

The above is the women you've chose to have around you and you should understand that this is your environment. My experience is very different Most of the men I know in my family cannot stand it when a women is correct, no matter how logical they present their argument the men get more and more frustrated the more and more wrong they are. Then they just yell BUS! I'VE MADE A DECISION and he goes off and acts like he is inthe right. But at least I know my experience is limited and I would not think all men are like this.

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

Not all Muslim societies are like that. Those are not the kinds of women I have "chosen" to surround myself with. The women I know are educated, have good careers, and yet, many if not most of them behave the way I described. There happens to be a growing body of evidence for a physiological basis to my observation as well. Just look up the research on estrogen and its effects on cognitive function and memory. The menstrual cycle may affect cognition in women. Estrogens play an interesting role in human cognition.

In any case, I stated more than once I was making a lighthearted generalization of my own experience, which happened to be confirmed by both men and women responding in this thread. I did not once use the word "emotional" when referring to women. "Emotional blackmail" is a real tactic. "Women's wiles" is also a concept found in many cultures. In my experience, women love to play mind games and can be highly manipulative.

E.g. (not serious)

Wife: [Referring to attractive woman standing nearby] Do you think she's prettier than I am?
Husband: What? No, of course not.
Wife: So you were looking at her!
Husband: No...ah...I...uh-oh.

[ummitaalib]

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

dear sister please read up more regarding the respect Islam has given women before throwing caution to the winds. As for the hadith do not reject it so as if it was a trivial matter, may Allah subhaanahu wata'ala grant us correct understanding...ask Him for guidance sister and He will put your mind and heart at rest insha Allah.

[Abu Zakir]

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.

I am not sure how accurate this is, it sounds over generalized. If these are the type of women Muslims raise generally they will collectively suffer. It is good to have femininity or those traits usually associated with femininity such as compassion, love, mercy and care to find expression in society, but they need to be balanced with the masculine...its the yin and yang, whenever one gains dominance over another things will not work out and the pendulum will swing back in the opposite direction. Equilibrium and moderation are the ideal and Muslims should strive to find this and establish it in their boys and girls. I know Muslims who send their girls for martial arts, who do science at HE and other traditionally male dominated subjects...and this is not a bad thing as long as the girls do not lose their femininity in the process. They in turn would raise good children and future generations. It is only insecure men who are threatened by smart and strong women, secure and strong men would love these women even more.

[Abdul-Hakeem]

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.

Assalamu `Alaykum

Don't judge Islam based on the actions of its followers. Especially don't judge Islam based on the actions of Muslim countries. Those countries are corrupt and wrong in many ways. They don't follow the Qur'an or Hadith properly half the time.

Judge Islam based on the Qur'an and authentic Ahadith, sister. There is nothing in the Qur'an or Hadith that says that men can dictate who a woman's friends are, or that women can't work, or that women can't study, or that women are supposed to be disrespected.

In fact, the opposite is shown in Qur'an and Hadith. For example, the man is supposed to give a woman a gift upon marriage which she can use in any way she wishes. Clearly, this shows that men dictating a woman's life is not proper and that the husband is to give the wife freedom. The husband has rights over the wife, however, but the wife also has rights over the husband.

Some people here may disagree with what I said above, but oh well.

Further verses in the Qur'an that demand that husbands respect their wives in ways not seen in so-called "Muslim" countries today:

"O ye who believe! It is not lawful...that ye should put constraint upon them that ye may take away a part of that which ye have given them...But consort with them in kindness. For if ye hate them it may happen that ye hate a thing wherein Allah hath placed much good" (Qur'an 4:19).

There is a verse in the Qur'an that allows men to beat their wives (Qur'an 4:34). But this is only during a situation of serious misconduct by the wife AND only after all other options are exhausted. This is clear from the verse itself. And the scholars use a Hadith in which the Prophet (saw) explains that the verse allows a "light tap which doesn't leave a mark" to state that the only justified hitting is with the force of a toothbrush or less. So clearly that's not really beating.

Furthermore, the Prophet hated when men even touched their wives harshly. He said "How does any one of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace her?" (Bukhari vol. 8, Hadith 58).

I'm sure you've heard the often-repeated Hadith about how a man asked the Prophet who deserves the most respect, the Prophet said "your mother". The man asked "and then?" and the Prophet said "your mother". The man asked again, "and then?" and the Prophet again said "your mother". Then, the man asked "and then?" and the Prophet said "your father".

And furthermore, the Prophet (saw) in his last sermon said "If they (your wives) abide by your right (i.e. the right of a husband to have a devoted and loving wife), then they deserve the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers"

It's clear that in Islam, men and women have different roles. It's also clear that the man is to provide for the woman, but this doesn't mean that the woman can't have her own source of income. Rather, it simply means that, if the man has the means to, then he must provide everything his wife needs. There is nothing stating that the wife can't work and earn money for her own reasons, so long as these reasons aren't unchaste.

Both genders must be treated with absolute respect and kindness. It's equality, though men and women have different roles in society. Men have certain rights over women while women have certain rights over men. It balances out into equality. And nowhere in the Qur'an or in the Hadith are women forbidden from becoming educated. In fact, the Prophet (saw) said:

"Whoever was asked about knowledge but conceals it, he will be brought on the Day of Resurrection muzzled with the leashes of Hellfire" (Abu Dawood, Hadith #3658; Tirmidhi, Hadith #2649)


The above is the women you've chose to have around you and you should understand that this is your environment. My experience is very different Most of the men I know in my family cannot stand it when a women is correct, no matter how logical they present their argument the men get more and more frustrated the more and more wrong they are. Then they just yell BUS! I'VE MADE A DECISION and he goes off and acts like he is inthe right. But at least I know my experience is limited and I would not think all men are like this.

All men are certainly not like this. But I think this is exactly what is meant by the Prophet (saw) when he says that women make men act irrational. Men become very childish in arguments, and that is due to the effect that women have on men when there are arguments.


As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

Firstly, another sister explained the Hadith in a post on the first page. "Deficient in intellect" refers to women often letting emotions take control of them. That doesn't mean that men don't get ruled by their illogical emotions sometimes as well. It simply means that women tend to do it more often.

"Deficient in religion" refers to a woman not being allowed to pray/fast for at least a couple of days every month due to her period.

In my opinion, I think this Hadith is taken out of context anyway. I think the Prophet (saw) was not referring to all women who will ever live, but just to the women in his Ummah whom he came across and spoke to during his time on Earth. Even then, what he said isn't bad and none of it is inaccurate. Women are ruled by their emotions more often than men. Women, if all things are normal, aren't allowed to pray or fast at a certain time every month as opposed to a man who, if all things are normal, can pray and fast every day.

Secondly, there are many Muslims who don't know how to practice their religion properly. As I said before, judge Islam by the Qur'an and Hadith and not by what Muslims do. There are many, many instances where the Prophet (saw) urges men to treat their wives with kindness and respect. The Qur'an demands that men provide for their wives and and it demands that men give women respect and freedom when it comes to divorce, disagreements, and marriage. The Qur'an forbade the pre-Islamic Arab practice of killing daughters and keeping sons, also. And all throughout the Qur'an, Allah makes it clear that "believing men and women" will both get their rewards from Him without any discrimination based on gender.

The Prophet (saw) respected women, and Allah respects women. Therefore, when some Muslims do not respect women and do not respect their God-given rights, that's a reflection only on how poorly they are following the Qur'an and Sunnah, and it is not a reflection on Islam itself.

Sister, I hope any doubts you have regarding Islam are cleared up. I suggest you speak to other Muslim women, and speak to Muslimah scholars who can clear up things. It's hard to separate truth from falsehood when a lot of people who claim to be very religious commit acts which are in fact sins.

Also, read post #21 in this thread: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?12840-Does-the-Quran-tell-Muslims-to-abuse-women/page3. It further proves how women and men are different but equal in Islam.

[purana.paapi]

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.



The above is the women you've chose to have around you and you should understand that this is your environment. My experience is very different Most of the men I know in my family cannot stand it when a women is correct, no matter how logical they present their argument the men get more and more frustrated the more and more wrong they are. Then they just yell BUS! I'VE MADE A DECISION and he goes off and acts like he is inthe right. But at least I know my experience is limited and I would not think all men are like this.

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

Your Questioning the Hadith and Doubting what Nabi sallahu alahi wasallam said displays your Deficiency in Intelligence.
Thanks for proving it. :lol:

[بنت ارشد]

Brothers and sisters have already discussed your question.
One thing I would like to add
AS you said "you always been the most intelligent person in your class".It doesn't mean that you are intelligent.I do agree to this men are more intelligent than women not because my biology teacher told this,I really observed this.I used to score good marks,not because of intelligence only bcoz of hard work.Now when I see my brother who is studying half of the time or even less what I used to study and still he score good marks.

[muminah]

Does Islam consider Women deficient in intelligence and religion? http://www.alsiraj.net/English/misc/women/html/page20.html

There is a famous saying (hadith) by Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, that is constantly misunderstood and sometimes misused by some prejudiced people to attack Islam and prove that in Islam men are considered a higher grade of humans than women.

The hadith is found in the Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Book 6: Menstrual Periods, Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301 it states: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (Mosque to offer the prayer) of 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)."
They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?"
He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you."
The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?"
He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?"
They replied in the affirmative.
He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?"
The women replied in the affirmative.
He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."

Now lets take a look at the explanation of this hadith..
First :
let us try to understand what the word intelligence here mean.. Intelligence here rather means intellect, that is why many scholars consider translation as a cause for the misunderstanding of this hadith.

That is why some consider the above translation as wrong and give the following as its correction

“The Messenger of Allah once said to a group of women: O Women, give charity. I see the majority of those in hellfire to be women. They said: why is it so, O Messenger of Allah? He said: You rebuke a lot and you are disobedient towards your husbands. I have not seen any one who has more influence on an intelligent and sensible man, than you, although you are deficient in intellect and religion. A cautious, sensible man can easily be led astray by you. The women asked: O Allah's Messenger, what is deficient in our intellect and religion? He said: Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man? They replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your intelligence'... 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menstruation? The women replied in the affirmative. He said: This is the deficiency in your religion.''

They give the following explanation to the above hadith
In this narrative of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, according to a normal principle of the classical Arabic language, some words have been suppressed. The words "Naqisa'tul-`aql wal-deen" translated as: "deficient in intellect and religion" have the noun "umu'r" suppressed. The complete phrase is: "Naqisa'tu umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" or "Naqisa't fi' umu'ril-`aql wal-di'n" i.e. "deficient in responsibility in matters pertaining to intellect and religion.

A thorough deliberation on the narrative in the light of the above explanation would clarify the meaning of this narrative. The Prophet , peace and blessings be upon him, directs the group of women to give a lot of charity to balance out their weaknesses. He then informs them of two of their important weaknesses, i.e., they are quick in rebuke and are disobedient to their husbands. Both these qualities may result in making the family life very miserable. He then expresses his surprise at their influence on their men by saying that although God has reduced their responsibility in matters pertaining to practical wisdom and religion, strange as it is, they have a tremendous influence on their men. (http://www.************************/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=540)

Second :
Arab philosophers consider the human mind has two parts one which has all his instinct-based behavior, as well as his being God’s trustee on earth which is the one that Allah created inside man. The other one is based on the intelligence, intellect and brilliance. Consequently, they say that some humans can have one strong and the other deficient whether men or women equally.

Based on Arab philosophers theory, The famous scholar Al-Mawardi said that the real intellect is the one responsible for the human actions as Allah’s vicegerent on earth. That is the one meant by the word (intelligence) in this hadith. That is why the hadith said (deficient in intelligence and religion) i.e. used the woman’s deficiency in intellect with her having less religious responsibilities. The hadith actually speaks of the part of the mind responsible for the human as vicegerent on earth.

As for her deficiency in intellect, Women can not control her feelings as much as man and is more patient and merciful than man and is much easily moved by tragic situations than man which is her nature that is why her responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth are less. For example she does not have to financially support the family while financially supporting the family is one of the man’s major responsibilities. Another example is her testimony in debt registration sessions or transactions which is a field not frequently tackled by women, which requires great accuracy and understanding of financial matters, in this case her testimony is half that of a man (please refer to page 21 for further discussion of this point in Islam).

As for her deficiency in religion it is because during her menstruation she does not fast or pray.

Both deficiencies are not meant to humiliate or underestimate women but rather understanding her nature. Women have less responsibilities as Allah vicegerent on earth that is the part of their intellect that is missing but it never means that women are brainless, unwise, less intelligent or even less religious than men. The hadith rather empathizes women nature as the part of humanity responsible for emotions and mercy than men.

Before we leave this matter we have to say here that in various occasions the Holy Quran and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, praised women intelligence and wisdom.

The holy Quran praised Belqees The Queen of Sheba’s wisdom and narrated her story with Prophet Soloman, blessings be upon him, in the following verses

“She said: O chiefs! give me advice respecting my affair: I never decide an affair until you are in my presence They said: We are possessors of strength and possessors of mighty prowess, and the command is yours, therefore see what you will command. She said: Surely the kings, when they enter a town, ruin it and make the noblest of its people to be low, and thus they (always) do; And surely I am going to send a present to them, and shall wait to see what (answer) do the messengers bring back.” (AlNaml – 32:35)

Belquees, the Queen of Sheba was a woman in a ruling position. She represented a democratic ruler who consulted with her people before making important decisions.

“It was said to her: Enter the palace; but when she saw it she deemed it to be a great expanse of water, and bared her legs. He said: Surely it is a palace made smooth with glass. She said: My Lord! surely I have been unjust to myself, and I submit with Sulaiman to Allah, the Lord of the worlds.” (AlNaml – 44)

After witnessing what God gave Solomon, she became a Muslim, while still the Queen of Sheba. When she saw the interior of Solomon’s palace, she thought it was a pool of water, and she (pulled up her dress) exposing her legs. He said, "This interior is now paved with crystal." She said, “My Lord! surely I have been unjust to myself, and I submit with Sulaiman to Allah, the Lord of the worlds”

In another hadith a woman came asking the prophet and he praised her wisdom and eloquence. The Noble Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, consulted his wives, may Allah be pleased with them, in many critical occasions and followed their opinion like in case of Um Salama, may Allah be pleased with her, during the treaty of Hudaibeya which is explained later in the section (Examples of How the Islamic society treated women)

From the above discussion we can easily conclude that Islam regards woman as equal to man, the fact that she has less responsibilities as God’s vicegerent on earth does not underestimate her capabilities but rather empathizes her nature as more passionate than man which is a necessity for the continuity of life on earth.

[Abdul-Hakeem]

Your Questioning the Hadith and Doubting what Nabi sallahu alahi wasallam said displays your Deficiency in Intelligence.
Thanks for proving it. :lol:

Brother, show respect for the sister. insulting people is not Islam, and Islam encourages us to ask questions about things so that we may gain more knowledge.

[ummitaalib]

Your Questioning the Hadith and Doubting what Nabi sallahu alahi wasallam said displays your Deficiency in Intelligence.
Thanks for proving it. :


Assalaamu 'alaykum ww
Hope you do not mind me saying but using hikmat and beautiful akhlaaq works wonders brother. Lets not alienate the sister further, insha Allah she will be guided as we have been alhamdulillah.

[mh16388]

where is sister anybody?
she is great answering such queries.

[Auzer]

Yay yay yay Bro. Please don't talk nonsense. Women are not stupid at all but Nabi :saw: finish tell us that they, i mean we (ahem) are Naqis-u-Aqal. Finish and klaar! And He :saw: only spoke the truth - and nothing but the truth so we know that there is something slightly wrong with our minds and are perfectly happy with it that way :alhamd:....
So yes! you can call it quits trying to convince us that we are more superior in intelligence than men coz we won't believe you.

:jazak:

I didn't say that you are "superior" in intelligence...I said that BOTH men and women are EQUAL in intelligence (as a general group) ... Some guys are smarter than girls and some girls are smarter than guys etc ... Prophet Said it in a particular context...Please get some knowledge before justifying your wrong thoughts about your gender by using Prophet's words...

http://www.letmeturnthetables.com/2009/06/why-hadith-says-that-women-are.html

Also , you don't have to bring this topic...Women and men are equal. No one inherently "superior" to the other.

[Auzer]

First of all muslim societies create a culture where women are almost totally dependent on men for everything, most scholars say woman should not work outside of home (so they don't have their own income), their family and husband can dictate who their friends are, or even can't leave home unless it is necessary, and limiting their life experience to the extreme. Women are told their whole lives not to be too smart, and not more intelligent than the men around them and that the female must always be soft and caring and easily emotional. Once you've trained this helpless creature and called her a Woman then you throw it back in her face when it doesn't go your way.

The above is the women you've chose to have around you and you should understand that this is your environment. My experience is very different Most of the men I know in my family cannot stand it when a women is correct, no matter how logical they present their argument the men get more and more frustrated the more and more wrong they are. Then they just yell BUS! I'VE MADE A DECISION and he goes off and acts like he is inthe right. But at least I know my experience is limited and I would not think all men are like this.

As for women being deficient in deen and intellect - when people quote this hadith by it self to me its one more reason not to remain muslim in a religion where i am not respected. Did it also occur to you that that hadith does not refer to the emotionality of women, but instead how men are weak when it comes to women?

EXACTLY!

Hope Muslims all over the world get educated and stop justifying their faults by using Prophet's hadiths....

[malone]

So you have left Islam because you do not like what it says? How logically fallacious that decision is. If Islam is proven to be true, then everything that comes with it is true regardless of how you feel about it. An alcoholic cannot reject Islam on the basis that Islam prohibits alcohol (just because he himself is addicted to it and cannot understand the idea why prohibition of alcohol would be commanded by God). He must submit his will to God.

It's like someone refusing to believe that they failed their Maths test just because they don't like the idea of failing their maths test. You do not like the idea or the words of this hadith and so you reject Islam totally because of it, rather than realising that since Islam is from God (and we can prove this), the hadith MUST be true and you MUST accept the words of the Messenger :saw: of God because they MUST be true

And it is ironic that you apostate based on emotions and not reason and yet you dislike a hadith that talks about such a deficiency of women... you just proved our point

I don't think I am quite an apostate yet. I don't know where I stand at the moment, but reading hadith like this does not help.

Also - when I dislike something, I dislike it on the basis of intellect too, not just emotion, this is the basis on which most people dislike most things, a mixture. I do not like that hadith, I but I do not like it because it is unjust and is demeaning to women. I personally thinks that women should not be belittled like this. I don't think i am being unreasonable in thinking this.

And it is funny that you think you are being so logical and making fun of my 'deficiency in intellegence' just like a good Muslim man should believe I guess, but then you make the nonsensical claim that a metaphysical truth such as that of a religion can be proven to be 'objectively' true. You cannot seriously believe this? This is why some people leave Islam, and many many others will never EVER convert and others actively hate the religion. It does not mean these people are illogical because they happen to disagree with you, it means they do not buy your metaphysical ideas, they are not objectively totally proveable and people use complicated systems to decide which ideas they want to keep and which they do not.

[malone]

Your Questioning the Hadith and Doubting what Nabi sallahu alahi wasallam said displays your Deficiency in Intelligence.
Thanks for proving it. :lol:

Now this is unbelieveable. Questioning something and disagreeing means a lack of intellect?! So as a good muslim you always just shut up, just believe, believe believe, never question and if you question be always satisfied with the answer (even if it is no satisfactory), a good muslim closes his eyes and ears to doubt and questions. So a muslim intellectual is basicaly a robot who believes what he is told and always accepts the answer he is given. It's not my intelligence that's deficient here...

[malone]

Not all Muslim societies are like that. Those are not the kinds of women I have "chosen" to surround myself with. The women I know are educated, have good careers, and yet, many if not most of them behave the way I described. There happens to be a growing body of evidence for a physiological basis to my observation as well. Just look up the research on estrogen and its effects on cognitive function and memory. The menstrual cycle may affect cognition in women. Estrogens play an interesting role in human cognition.

In any case, I stated more than once I was making a lighthearted generalization of my own experience, which happened to be confirmed by both men and women responding in this thread. I did not once use the word "emotional" when referring to women. "Emotional blackmail" is a real tactic. "Women's wiles" is also a concept found in many cultures. In my experience, women love to play mind games and can be highly manipulative.

E.g. (not serious)

Wife: [Referring to attractive woman standing nearby] Do you think she's prettier than I am?
Husband: What? No, of course not.
Wife: So you were looking at her!
Husband: No...ah...I...uh-oh.

Again, all you are doing is presenting your personal experience as if it was facts and then you searched for some scientific papers that backed up what you already believe. In my family in pakistan this conversation would be:

Wife: [Referring to attractive woman standing nearby] Do you think she's prettier than I am?
Husband: What? No, of course not.
Wife: So you were looking at her!
Husband: SHUT UP I CAN DO WHAT I LIKE YOU DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

But like i says before, i don't take my personal experience and pretend it applies to over 3 billion people. further more, because you already have a bias in this direction, it means you will notice females behaving like this than men. subconsciosly you will ignore mens behaviour like this because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions. more than hormone and sex differences society is the big modulator of personality, and muslim women are bought up to buy into all this stuff about being emotional and feminine.

[ahmad12]

I don't think I am quite an apostate yet. I don't know where I stand at the moment, but reading hadith like this does not help.

Also - when I dislike something, I dislike it on the basis of intellect too, not just emotion, this is the basis on which most people dislike most things, a mixture. I do not like that hadith, I but I do not like it because it is unjust and is demeaning to women. I personally thinks that women should not be belittled like this. I don't think i am being unreasonable in thinking this.

And it is funny that you think you are being so logical and making fun of my 'deficiency in intellegence' just like a good Muslim man should believe I guess, but then you make the nonsensical claim that a metaphysical truth such as that of a religion can be proven to be 'objectively' true. You cannot seriously believe this? This is why some people leave Islam, and many many others will never EVER convert and others actively hate the religion. It does not mean these people are illogical because they happen to disagree with you, it means they do not buy your metaphysical ideas, they are not objectively totally proveable and people use complicated systems to decide which ideas they want to keep and which they do not.

You say you dislike this on the basis of intellect but to then follow it up by saying 'it is unjust' without pointing out in what way it is unjust and to call it 'demeaniong' meaning you don't like the way it talks about women is emotional in itself, NOT an intellectual argument.

To think that any religion cannot be objectively proven to be true is itself unreasonable to assume. You could have just asked for the proofs and they would have been given to you yet you spout objections to even the IDEA that objective proofs could exist.


And I didn't make fun of you, I pointed out the irony in your post. Such a shame that you do not know the difference

[ahmad12]

Now this is unbelieveable. Questioning something and disagreeing means a lack of intellect?! So as a good muslim you always just shut up, just believe, believe believe, never question and if you question be always satisfied with the answer (even if it is no satisfactory), a good muslim closes his eyes and ears to doubt and questions. So a muslim intellectual is basicaly a robot who believes what he is told and always accepts the answer he is given. It's not my intelligence that's deficient here...

It obviously is. If God or His Messenger :saw: tell us something, it is foolish to disagree as if you somehow know more than the Creator. Of course, the kuffar then argue 'how do you know God or His Messenger :saw: said that in the first place? Maybe there is no God or you are following the wrong book, etc' at which point we show them the many proofs that God exists and that the Quran is His Book and that Rasoolullah :saw: is His Messenger :saw:

So to dismiss what God and His Messenger :saw: say, even after the proofs are made clear and no objection to them can be raised, is the epitome of irrationality

[NNoor]

Again, all you are doing is presenting your personal experience as if it was facts and then you searched for some scientific papers that backed up what you already believe. In my family in pakistan this conversation would be:

Wife: [Referring to attractive woman standing nearby] Do you think she's prettier than I am?
Husband: What? No, of course not.
Wife: So you were looking at her!
Husband: SHUT UP I CAN DO WHAT I LIKE YOU DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO.

But like i says before, i don't take my personal experience and pretend it applies to over 3 billion people. further more, because you already have a bias in this direction, it means you will notice females behaving like this than men. subconsciosly you will ignore mens behaviour like this because it doesn't fit your preconceived notions. more than hormone and sex differences society is the big modulator of personality, and muslim women are bought up to buy into all this stuff about being emotional and feminine.

wow, you really need to lighten up. You also need to stop accusing me of presenting my personal experiences as facts. How many times to I have to disclaim that I'm only sharing my personal experiences? did you even read my post? And no, I did not search for papers after the fact just to back up what I already believe; it just happen to know about it because that's my field. Why second guess people like that for no reason?

[malone]

You say you dislike this on the basis of intellect but to then follow it up by saying 'it is unjust' without pointing out in what way it is unjust and to call it 'demeaniong' meaning you don't like the way it talks about women is emotional in itself, NOT an intellectual argument.

See. This proves my point. intellect often has a part to play in deciding what is or is not unjust but some of it is emotional too no one operates fully on intellect alone. Here is my problem with the above. To call any one deficient in intellect and religion is an insult, would you not agree? but especially when these are qualities (allegedly) given to all women by GOD how can then we be penalised for it? Simply, god made us this way. And if god made us this way then he has created the majority of us to be destined for hell fire as per the hadith. This is unjust. In islam, circular reasoning is used: if god is just then nothing He does is unjust, therefore even the above is Just to a muslim. But If you think about it as a chain, not a circle, you can see that god is penalising women for the very traits he created them with, and it's islamic law that limits women (needing two witnesses) and not being allowed to pray when shes on her menses.


To think that any religion cannot be objectively proven to be true is itself unreasonable to assume. You could have just asked for the proofs and they would have been given to you yet you spout objections to even the IDEA that objective proofs could exist.

And I noted the irony of being called deficient in intellect by someone who believes that a spiritual truth is objectively provable as if it's some kind of scientific fact. OK. I will ask you for these proofs - what are they? All you (and any other religious believer has) is evidence, but nothing conclusive.

[malone]

It obviously is. If God or His Messenger :saw: tell us something, it is foolish to disagree as if you somehow know more than the Creator. Of course, the kuffar then argue 'how do you know God or His Messenger :saw: said that in the first place? Maybe there is no God or you are following the wrong book, etc' at which point we show them the many proofs that God exists and that the Quran is His Book and that Rasoolullah :saw: is His Messenger :saw:

So to dismiss what God and His Messenger :saw: say, even after the proofs are made clear and no objection to them can be raised, is the epitome of irrationality

This is like reading something from another planet, and again it fills in the idea of a good muslim as being like a blind robot who is happy with the answers he is fed and that it is the questioners who are irrational! This approach is ok if you like your life and your thought processes simple. If this attitude is ok for your belief, then it much be ok for christians right? How many christian pastors stop their students from reading the quran 'because it will play tricks with their mind' or that 'a good christian understands that god is beyond understanding, so it's ok for him to have a son, have him crucified and then resurrected?' and 'it doesn't have to make sense, god is a mystery'. Amazing to think that muslims want everyone to question and criticise their religion, leave it for islam, but as soon as you are muslim you don't need those questioning skills anymore!

You can show many people the 'proofs' of gods existance, but until you can show someone god himself there is no proof, only evidence that one can choose to believe or not as he likes. This is why you will never believe a christian's 'proof' but you expect him to believe yours!

[abdulwahhab]

malone:

Women are physiologically different from men. You seem to envision a utopia where men and women are indistinguishable. Physiologic differences lead to differences in other areas, including intellect. A woman may be more intellectual than a man but when everything but the physiology is equal, women are more emotional than they are intellectual and thus a woman would be less intellectual and more emotional than a man when everything else is equal except physiology. The physiology of a woman has a higher effect on her judgement than the physiology of a man since a healthy man does not undergo hormonal changes nor alterations in mood as frequently as women do - and this is a scientific fact. Even in so-called liberated Western countries, men continue to dominate the fields of science because more men enter these fields than women. Women tend to enter fields that are more akin to liberal arts. Are we supposed to force women to enter the same fields as men in the exact same quantities or is this not an appreciation of the fact that women and men are wired differently?

Allah :taala: created men and women to be different. Why do you not see men raising any issue when Islam raises the rank of the mother higher than that of the father? Because a woman is more motherly and more nurturing than a man on average. Of course, there are exceptions where a woman is more cruel than a man towards their children but again, these are exceptions to the norm and we see this even in nature.

[alharith]

See. This proves my point. intellect often has a part to play in deciding what is or is not unjust but some of it is emotional too no one operates fully on intellect alone. True, only to a degree. However the degree it reaches is not obtrusive enough to make it impossible. It is possible to think on pure intellect alone.Here is my problem with the above. To call any one deficient in intellect and religion is an insult, would you not agree? I do not concur. There is a difference in saying a derogatory term against one and simply stating what is known. If someone calls me stupid, I feel that the word "stupid" is a demeaning word as it denotes lack of intelligence and *is used in a derogatory manner*. If someone uses euphemisms to try to prevent any derogatory message from leaving the mouth, I'll understand that that person did not intend to denote that I am lower in rank or any of the sort, but that he or she was simply stating what was known.


This is like reading something from another planet, and again it fills in the idea of a good muslim as being like a blind robot who is happy with the answers he is fed and that it is the questioners who are irrational! This approach is ok if you like your life and your thought processes simple. If this attitude is ok for your belief, then it much be ok for christians right? How many christian pastors stop their students from reading the quran 'because it will play tricks with their mind' or that 'a good christian understands that god is beyond understanding, so it's ok for him to have a son, have him crucified and then resurrected?' and 'it doesn't have to make sense, god is a mystery'. Amazing to think that muslims want everyone to question and criticise their religion, leave it for islam, but as soon as you are muslim you don't need those questioning skills anymore! Thing is here, I as an 18-year-old realize the hikmah in Allah's decree and shariah. I am personally comfortable with following His rules without question. This is because so many unnatural goods and benefits have been learned and known through the sunnah and shariah, like the benefits of miswak, or wudhu, or harms of zina, the superficiality of dating, etc. Frankly, I've realized that Allah ta'ala's rules are perfectly fine to not question, anyways, as they ARE from Allah, and it can be proved as another sunniforumer may do so. As well, how do you think the early followers felt about not questioning the shariah? It's not like they learned of the scientific harms of pork products, benefits of miswak, how Zakaat could possibly alleviate poverty in complete from judging the current state of world today (I learned in a lecture by Sh. Hamza Yusuf that apparently if 2% of everyone's wealth went towards poverty, poverty would be eliminated, and so zakaat's 2.5% would create a surplus, surprisingly).

You can show many people the 'proofs' of gods existance, but until you can show someone god himself there is no proof, only evidence that one can choose to believe or not as he likes. This is why you will never believe a christian's 'proof' but you expect him to believe yours!Difference here is, we use logic to judge proof. That is the common ground. Using the common ground of logic, Islam can be proven correct. Just in case no one links you to a site logically listing the proof, I'll give this one; http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/2008/05/19/the-foundations-of-the-religion/. I noticed that people like to give the Deoband's Clearest Rational Argument link, but I'm more comfortable with this one :)

Bold is my response, couldn't respond to everything as I still have to finish my homework, responded to whatever I could...

Not a scholar, any truth and benefit is from Allah, any wrong from my own. That remark you made about how Allah creates us with full knowledge of where we will end up is interesting, and I might have a somewhat decent answer, but gotta finish my tasks at hand, and another more knowledgeable person may do better, insha'Allah.

[ahmad12]

See. This proves my point. intellect often has a part to play in deciding what is or is not unjust but some of it is emotional too no one operates fully on intellect alone. Here is my problem with the above. To call any one deficient in intellect and religion is an insult, would you not agree?

No, I would not agree


but especially when these are qualities (allegedly) given to all women by GOD how can then we be penalised for it?

No is penalising you for them, so why ask the reason behind the non existent penalty?


Simply, god made us this way.

Agreed


And if god made us this way then he has created the majority of us to be destined for hell fire as per the hadith.

The hadith is misunderstood. The majority of inhabitants of jannah are women as well (from this world). Considering that women make up the majority of the worlds population, don't you think they would make up the majority of the hereafter too?


This is unjust.

It is not unjust since you were wrong in your previous assertion and quite honestly, what is unjust to you may not be unjust to someone else. This is entirely subjective as all humans will have different understands of what rights are and what justice and injustice is as well as what is wrong and what is right. And since you are claiming to use logic, you cannot talk about subjective notions as if they are objective which you are doing here


In islam, circular reasoning is used: if god is just then nothing He does is unjust, therefore even the above is Just to a muslim. But If you think about it as a chain, not a circle, you can see that god is penalising women for the very traits he created them with,

If you mean penalising them by sending them to hell, this is as mentioned above, false. They are not sent to hell just because they are women but they may be sent to hell because they failed to deal with the tests that were given to them in this life, just as a man is given a high level of testosterone and told not to commit zina. He doesn't go around complaining that the law is unjust


and it's islamic law that limits women (needing two witnesses) and not being allowed to pray when shes on her menses. And what is wrong with this limitation? It;s like saying men are overburdened because providing for the household is their duty. You think of it as a limitation but many will think of it as a respite; not having to get up for Fajr or not being responsible for being a witness to commercial transactions. Even if my left arm got cut off, I would have to pray Fajr so chill out




And I noted the irony of being called deficient in intellect by someone who believes that a spiritual truth is objectively provable as if it's some kind of scientific fact.

So you think scientific fact is objectively provable? Even though scientific facts themselves are subject to change? What a foolish notion. And here you are yet again thinking it is not possible for spiritual truths to be proven even though they can be proven through rational and logical reasoning (which does not require empirical evidence)


OK. I will ask you for these proofs - what are they? All you (and any other religious believer has) is evidence, but nothing conclusive.

LOL, is a rational argument evidence or proof? If held to be true, then it is proof (the premises of which may need evidence). I think you are mixing up words here. I'll give you a rational proof after replying to other posts

[lslam]

Women ARE FAR smarter than Men on average.

Colleges always have more women than men.
Women are more likely to get better grades and more likely to graduate. Research has been done to prove this.

There's an evolutionary perspective to it as well.

Famous saying: "While men were out hunting, women were thinking"

[ahmad12]

This is like reading something from another planet, and again it fills in the idea of a good muslim as being like a blind robot who is happy with the answers he is fed and that it is the questioners who are irrational!

So you are saying that it is rational to disagree with your Creator? Just imagine for a second that I have proven that God exists... now is it rational to disagree with Him in anything?


This approach is ok if you like your life and your thought processes simple. If this attitude is ok for your belief, then it much be ok for christians right?

No :S Why would it be OK for Christians? If you read what I wrote, I am saying if you can PROVE a religion to be true, then it makes no sense to disagree with it. You cannot prove Christianity to be true so it is not enough for them to just hear and obey whatever is in the Bible.


How many christian pastors stop their students from reading the quran 'because it will play tricks with their mind' or that 'a good christian understands that god is beyond understanding, so it's ok for him to have a son, have him crucified and then resurrected?' and 'it doesn't have to make sense, god is a mystery'.

Again, your analogy is flawed because you are comparing something which is true to something which is not true. Again I tell you, the Christians are wrong to blindly follow the Bible since they have no reason to believe in the Bible in the first place whereas we, the Muslims, have sufficient proof that Islam is the truth so it is fine for us to accept everything God and His Messenger :saw: say without questioning it.


Amazing to think that muslims want everyone to question and criticise their religion, leave it for islam, but as soon as you are muslim you don't need those questioning skills anymore!


You can show many people the 'proofs' of gods existance, but until you can show someone god himself there is no proof, only evidence that one can choose to believe or not as he likes. This is why you will never believe a christian's 'proof' but you expect him to believe yours!

We do not believe in Christian proofs because they don't have any. They have arguments that they put forth to prove their position but the arguments are unsound and the premises can always be proven false. However, our arguments are sound, the premises are true and can be proven to be so and the conclusion follows the premises (making it a valid argument). That's how logic works

With regards to showing someone God being the only way to prove His existence, this is so irrational that I wonder why I am even responding. Can you prove your great great grandmother exists? I guess proof according to you would be to physically show her but you can't do that... you probably can't even show us her grave. As such, shall I conclude that you do not have a great great grandmother? Or is your own existence proof enough?

If your own existence is proof enough, this means we can prove the existence of God in a similar way i.e. without having to 'show' you God but through rational deduction.

I think you need to look at the definitions of evidence and proof by the way. Evidence will be something that is used in a proof, so when I say we can prove God to exist and Islam to be correct, I mean that we can do it through logical arguments where the conclusion MUST necessarily be correct as long as the conclusion follows the premises and the premises are true (and have evidence). You will not be able to dismiss it because you that would mean dismissing logic in general

For example, if I make the following argument:

1. I am typing
2. I always type very slowly
3. Therefore, I am typing very slowly

Now, if the two premises are correct, and the conclusion follows these two premises, then the argument I made is correct as a whole (including the conclusion). So anyone who reads it must affirm the conclusion to be true otherwise logically speaking, they themselves are wrong

Similarly, we have have arguments that prove Islam is correct and whether the reader than accepts Islam or not does not change the validity and truth of our argument.

[abdulwahhab]

Women ARE FAR smarter than Men on average.

Colleges always have more women than men.
Women are more likely to get better grades and more likely to graduate. Research has been done to prove this.

There's an evolutionary perspective to it as well.

Famous saying: "While men were out hunting, women were thinking"

False.

Colleges do not have "more women than men". In some fields, yes, but in the "hard science" fields, no. Men dominate these fields. There are more men in the fields of physical science, from physics to biology, from chemistry to robotics.

And if we're talking about high school, then yes, women are more likely to get better grades and/or graduate, but not once you hit college and higher tiers of education, where men consistently do better than women on average.

And if you're going the evolutionary route, then men were out competing while women were home nurturing is a more accurate statement. Evolutionarily speaking, females do not compete for males whereas males do compete for females as females are what drive a species forward.

[uber_mensch]

They are less intelligent, if by intelligent you mean mathematical ability, ability to invent etc. Women have been 'empowered' for decades in the west now, and still don't perform in these fields, the best they did was invent this silly philosophy of women's studies/feminism. The fact is their brain isn't made to do math.

Going to college doesn't make you smart, far from it, probably makes you dumber and more inclined to obey authority. And women are more inclined to obey from the first.

Muslims need to get out of this colonised mentality, liberal egalitarian nonsense poured into their minds by white leftists.

[Abdul-Hakeem]

.

Sister, did you see my response to you? It's on the 6th page, post #52. Read it sister, I think it may help you understand things from a better perspective. Many of the responses you're getting on this thread don't help, and you shouldn't listen to them as they are all opinions without any backing of facts. Read my post sister. I agree with what you said and I've presented facts from Qur'an and Hadith to support my argument.

[Auzer]

They are less intelligent, if by intelligent you mean mathematical ability, ability to invent etc. Women have been 'empowered' for decades in the west now, and still don't perform in these fields, the best they did was invent this silly philosophy of women's studies/feminism. The fact is their brain isn't made to do math.

Going to college doesn't make you smart, far from it, probably makes you dumber and more inclined to obey authority. And women are more inclined to obey from the first.

Muslims need to get out of this colonised mentality, liberal egalitarian nonsense poured into their minds by white leftists.

LOL! How many modern "inventions" do you know? Without googling? Mostly people only know classical inventions ... Girls are in no way less smarter than boys. Yes probably they are less interested in science/Maths ...I don't know...but stop this retardness that boys are somehow superior in intelligence...

[sudoku]

^ Stop this retardness of speaking so blatantly against a hadeeth.

If Rasulullah :saw: says something, it is true.

I feel both Muslim men and women are unintelligent when they cannot accept a hadeeth by the one they proclaim to follow.

[abid786]

what is unjust to you may not be unjust to someone else

Do you support the death penalty for apostasy?

-Jason

[Maripat]

Do you support the death penalty for apostasy?

-Jason
Aggressive question.

[malone]

Aggressive question.

The answer is also pretty aggressive!!

[uber_mensch]

Do you support the death penalty for apostasy?

-Jason

I do. If they state it openly. They are free to leave the country and be a kafir somewhere else though.

[abid786]

Aggressive question.

Why? It's a simple yes or no question.

[uber_mensch]

LOL! How many modern "inventions" do you know? Without googling? Mostly people only know classical inventions ... Girls are in no way less smarter than boys. Yes probably they are less interested in science/Maths ...I don't know...but stop this retardness that boys are somehow superior in intelligence...

Are you for real? How about that computer you are typing with. I doubt a single woman was involved in the development of anything it is made of. As with the space program/moon landing; no women were involved in the engineering needed to develop the means to fly in outer space. Simple facts, women aren't able. They don't have the same capacities as men. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

[Maripat]

The answer is also pretty aggressive!!
Allah (SWT) does not bring His wrath upon those people who who seeking His Mercy.

This is an excellent news for you.

The simplest form of corresponding is Rabbigh fir war ham innka anta khairur raahimeen.

I suppose if you keep this excessively on your tongue you should steer out of your present troubles.

And there is no Taufeeq except from Allah (SWT).

[Maripat]

Why? It's a simple yes or no question.
Jason have you stopped beating your wife?

[malone]

No, I would not agree

Again, that is your subjective opinion. What makes your subjective opinion superior to mine?


No is penalising you for them, so why ask the reason behind the non existent penalty?

The hadith clearly says that because of these traits the majority of people in hell are women. This is being penalised for a trait god made us with.


The hadith is misunderstood. The majority of inhabitants of jannah are women as well (from this world). Considering that women make up the majority of the worlds population, don't you think they would make up the majority of the hereafter too?

Which hadith says the majority of jannahs inhabitants are women? I have never come across it, but maybe that is my lack of knowledge.


It is not unjust since you were wrong in your previous assertion and quite honestly, what is unjust to you may not be unjust to someone else. This is entirely subjective as all humans will have different understands of what rights are and what justice and injustice is as well as what is wrong and what is right. And since you are claiming to use logic, you cannot talk about subjective notions as if they are objective which you are doing here

I was not the one claiming to use only logic, you were. I said for most humans decisions mix of logic and emotions is used. And you have contradicted yourself. You've told me that it is 'objectively' not unjust but then say every one has different standards of justice which is what I was trying to say in the first place!! What makes your standards better than mine?


If you mean penalising them by sending them to hell, this is as mentioned above, false. They are not sent to hell just because they are women but they may be sent to hell because they failed to deal with the tests that were given to them in this life, just as a man is given a high level of testosterone and told not to commit zina. He doesn't go around complaining that the law is unjust

Yes. Despite the fact that with all this testosterone men commint zina more frequently than women, start wars and kill people in the millions over history women are the most ones in hell... because of being ungrateful to our husbands!! What a great way to keep your wife in line and make sure she doesn't get out of hand. Be grateful to your husband, don't make friends he doesn't like, never leave the house without his permission, always give him sex no matter what you are doing or you will get the curse of the angels, do not travel with out him, if a woman was going to make sajdah to anyone other than allah then it would be her husband (she should be so grateful), he doesn't even have to tell you if he wants to marry a second, third or fourth wife, you cannot travel without him, do not even keep voluntary fast without his permission. In return...... you get money. This relationship doesn't sound equitable or respectful to me for this day an age. Maybe 1400 years ago in harhness of arabian desert this made sense. I am really confused. I don't want to single Islam out, but many religion in the world are obsessed with controlling their women, and I don't know why.


And what is wrong with this limitation? It;s like saying men are overburdened because providing for the household is their duty. You think of it as a limitation but many will think of it as a respite; not having to get up for Fajr or not being responsible for being a witness to commercial transactions. Even if my left arm got cut off, I would have to pray Fajr so chill out

I do think men carry big responsibility for their family so i don't want to take away from that. But the REASONS given for women being this way is not because of respite, it is because of her deficiencies. This gives the words a different feelings, and because you are a believer you want to look at it in a positive way (subjective) and because I am having conflicted thoughts that I cannot see the positive (my subjective view). And since when is making salah a burden on a believer anyway? The other limitations and controls I have listed above.



So you think scientific fact is objectively provable? Even though scientific facts themselves are subject to change? What a foolish notion. And here you are yet again thinking it is not possible for spiritual truths to be proven even though they can be proven through rational and logical reasoning (which does not require empirical evidence)

No, they are not totally objectively provabel, but they are 100 million times more reliable than religious proofs BECAUSE they change over the years to incorporate the new knowledge we have got over the years. Whereas religion tells you that it is the complete proof since the bginning of time and nothing can ever change it, no new knowledge, nothing.


LOL, is a rational argument evidence or proof? If held to be true, then it is proof (the premises of which may need evidence). I think you are mixing up words here. I'll give you a rational proof after replying to other posts

No that is not correct. An evidence is not proof. It only helps you decide on the probability of the truth of the hypothesis. Even in science this is recognised fact, my physics teacher used to say you can never prove anything 100%, you can only increase the chances of it being true and you do this by doing experiments many many times and so on and in fact in science you LOOK FOR WAYS TO PROVE WHAT YOU THINK IS WRONG ALSO to check if you hypothesis is correct. I have never come across this attitude in religion. In religion people only looks for ways to prove what they already believe is right, then end of story, you don't question any more.

[ahamed_sharif]

Are you for real? How about that computer you are typing with. I doubt a single woman was involved in the development of anything it is made of. As with the space program/moon landing; no women were involved in the engineering needed to develop the means to fly in outer space. Simple facts, women aren't able. They don't have the same capacities as men. You're delusional if you think otherwise.


Assalamu alaykum

I am intelligent because my mother was intelligent and she brought me up in a good and clean atmosphere. My children are because of my wife's efforts.

1. A girl child is born late by some 5 to 6 days.
2. A girl child starts speaking faster than a boy.
3. A girl child learns things faster than a boy.
4. A girl reaches puberty earlier.

Finally

A woman reaches the state of saturation in intelligence much earlier than men. And for a person to continue his research, he has build on whatever he has learned. If saturation is reached earlier, he has to discontinue.

That is the reason almost all inventions are by men.

That is what gives men an edge over women.

[malone]

Are you for real? How about that computer you are typing with. I doubt a single woman was involved in the development of anything it is made of. As with the space program/moon landing; no women were involved in the engineering needed to develop the means to fly in outer space. Simple facts, women aren't able. They don't have the same capacities as men. You're delusional if you think otherwise.

Educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace

[umairel]

Assalamu alaykum

I am intelligent because my mother was intelligent and she brought me up in a good and clean atmosphere. My children are because of my wife's efforts.

1. A girl child is born late by some 5 to 6 days.
2. A girl child starts speaking faster than a boy.
3. A girl child learns things faster than a boy.
4. A girl reaches puberty earlier.

Finally

A woman reaches the state of saturation in intelligence much earlier than men. And for a person to continue his research, he has build on whatever he has learned. If saturation is reached earlier, he has to discontinue.

That is the reason almost all inventions are by men.

That is what gives men an edge over women.
:thumbsup:

[uber_mensch]

Educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace

She didn't land on the moon, did she? From skimming that article, seems like she learnt everything from charles babbage.

[uber_mensch]

Essays of Schopenhauer, by Arthur Schopenhauer
On Women.


These few words of Jouy, Sans les femmes le commencement de notre vie seroit privé de secours, le milieu de plaisirs et la fin de consolation , more exactly express, in my opinion, the true praise of woman than Schiller’s poem, Würde der Frauen , which is the fruit of much careful thought and impressive because of its antithesis and use of contrast. The same thing is more pathetically expressed by Byron in Sardanapalus , Act i, Sc. 2:—

“The very first
Of human life must spring from woman’s breast,
Your first small words are taught you from her lips,
Your first tears quench’d by her, and your last sighs
Too often breathed out in a woman’s hearing,
When men have shrunk from the ignoble care
Of watching the last hour of him who led them.”

Both passages show the right point of view for the appreciation of women.

One need only look at a woman’s shape to discover that she is not intended for either too much mental or too much physical work. She pays the debt of life not by what she does but by what she suffers — by the pains of child-bearing, care for the child, and by subjection to man, to whom she should be a patient and cheerful companion. The greatest sorrows and joys or great exhibition of strength are not assigned to her; her life should flow more quietly, more gently, and less obtrusively than man’s, without her being essentially happier or unhappier.

Women are directly adapted to act as the nurses and educators of our early childhood, for the simple reason that they themselves are childish, foolish, and short-sighted — in a word, are big children all their lives, something intermediate between the child and the man, who is a man in the strict sense of the word. Consider how a young girl will toy day after day with a child, dance with it and sing to it; and then consider what a man, with the very best intentions in the world, could do in her place.

With girls, Nature has had in view what is called in a dramatic sense a “striking effect,” for she endows them for a few years with a richness of beauty and a, fulness of charm at the expense of the rest of their lives; so that they may during these years ensnare the fantasy of a man to such a degree as to make him rush into taking the honourable care of them, in some kind of form, for a lifetime — a step which would not seem sufficiently justified if he only considered the matter. Accordingly, Nature has furnished woman, as she has the rest of her creatures, with the weapons and implements necessary for the protection of her existence and for just the length of time that they will be of service to her; so that Nature has proceeded here with her usual economy. Just as the female ant after coition loses her wings, which then become superfluous, nay, dangerous for breeding purposes, so for the most part does a woman lose her beauty after giving birth to one or two children; and probably for the same reasons.

Then again we find that young girls in their hearts regard their domestic or other affairs as secondary things, if not as a mere jest. Love, conquests, and all that these include, such as dressing, dancing, and so on, they give their serious attention.

The nobler and more perfect a thing is, the later and slower is it in reaching maturity. Man reaches the maturity of his reasoning and mental faculties scarcely before he is eight-and-twenty; woman when she is eighteen; but hers is reason of very narrow limitations. This is why women remain children all their lives, for they always see only what is near at hand, cling to the present, take the appearance of a thing for reality, and prefer trifling matters to the most important. It is by virtue of man’s reasoning powers that he does not live in the present only, like the brute, but observes and ponders over the past and future; and from this spring discretion, care, and that anxiety which we so frequently notice in people. The advantages, as well as the disadvantages, that this entails, make woman, in consequence of her weaker reasoning powers, less of a partaker in them. Moreover, she is intellectually short-sighted, for although her intuitive understanding quickly perceives what is near to her, on the other hand her circle of vision is limited and does not embrace anything that is remote; hence everything that is absent or past, or in the future, affects women in a less degree than men. This is why they have greater inclination for extravagance, which sometimes borders on madness. Women in their hearts think that men are intended to earn money so that they may spend it, if possible during their husband’s lifetime, but at any rate after his death.

As soon as he has given them his earnings on which to keep house they are strengthened in this belief. Although all this entails many disadvantages, yet it has this advantage — that a woman lives more in the present than a man, and that she enjoys it more keenly if it is at all bearable. This is the origin of that cheerfulness which is peculiar to woman and makes her fit to divert man, and in case of need, to console him when he is weighed down by cares. To consult women in matters of difficulty, as the Germans used to do in old times, is by no means a matter to be overlooked; for their way of grasping a thing is quite different from ours, chiefly because they like the shortest way to the point, and usually keep their attention fixed upon what lies nearest; while we, as a rule, see beyond it, for the simple reason that it lies under our nose; it then becomes necessary for us to be brought back to the thing in order to obtain a near and simple view. This is why women are more sober in their judgment than we, and why they see nothing more in things than is really there; while we, if our passions are roused, slightly exaggerate or add to our imagination.

It is because women’s reasoning powers are weaker that they show more sympathy for the unfortunate than men, and consequently take a kindlier interest in them. On the other hand, women are inferior to men in matters of justice, honesty, and conscientiousness. Again, because their reasoning faculty is weak, things clearly visible and real, and belonging to the present, exercise a power over them which is rarely counteracted by abstract thoughts, fixed maxims, or firm resolutions, in general, by regard for the past and future or by consideration for what is absent and remote. Accordingly they have the first and principal qualities of virtue, but they lack the secondary qualities which are often a necessary instrument in developing it. Women may be compared in this respect to an organism that has a liver but no gall-bladder.9 So that it will be found that the fundamental fault in the character of women is that they have no “sense of justice .” This arises from their deficiency in the power of reasoning already referred to, and reflection, but is also partly due to the fact that Nature has not destined them, as the weaker sex, to be dependent on strength but on cunning; this is why they are instinctively crafty, and have an ineradicable tendency to lie. For as lions are furnished with claws and teeth, elephants with tusks, boars with fangs, bulls with horns, and the cuttlefish with its dark, inky fluid, so Nature has provided woman for her protection and defence with the faculty of dissimulation, and all the power which Nature has given to man in the form of bodily strength and reason has been conferred on woman in this form. Hence, dissimulation is innate in woman and almost as characteristic of the very stupid as of the clever. Accordingly, it is as natural for women to dissemble at every opportunity as it is for those animals to turn to their weapons when they are attacked; and they feel in doing so that in a certain measure they are only making use of their rights. Therefore a woman who is perfectly truthful and does not dissemble is perhaps an impossibility. This is why they see through dissimulation in others so easily; therefore it is not advisable to attempt it with them. From the fundamental defect that has been stated, and all that it involves, spring falseness, faithlessness, treachery, ungratefulness, and so on. In a court of justice women are more often found guilty of perjury than men. It is indeed to be generally questioned whether they should be allowed to take an oath at all. From time to time there are repeated cases everywhere of ladies, who want for nothing, secretly pocketing and taking away things from shop counters.

Nature has made it the calling of the young, strong, and handsome men to look after the propagation of the human race; so that the species may not degenerate. This is the firm will of Nature, and it finds its expression in the passions of women. This law surpasses all others in both age and power. Woe then to the man who sets up rights and interests in such a way as to make them stand in the way of it; for whatever he may do or say, they will, at the first significant onset, be unmercifully annihilated. For the secret, unformulated, nay, unconscious but innate moral of woman is: We are justified in deceiving those who, because they care a little for us ,— that is to say for the individual ,— imagine they have obtained rights over the species. The constitution, and consequently the welfare of the species, have been put into our hands and entrusted to our care through the medium of the next generation which proceeds from us; let us fulfil our duties conscientiously .

But women are by no means conscious of this leading principle in abstracto , they are only conscious of it in concreto , and have no other way of expressing it than in the manner in which they act when the opportunity arrives. So that their conscience does not trouble them so much as we imagine, for in the darkest depths of their hearts they are conscious that in violating their duty towards the individual they have all the better fulfilled it towards the species, whose claim upon them is infinitely greater. (A fuller explanation of this matter may be found in vol. ii., ch. 44, in my chief work, Die Welt als Wille und Vorstellung .)

Because women in truth exist entirely for the propagation of the race, and their destiny ends here, they live more for the species than for the individual, and in their hearts take the affairs of the species more seriously than those of the individual. This gives to their whole being and character a certain frivolousness, and altogether a certain tendency which is fundamentally different from that of man; and this it is which develops that discord in married life which is so prevalent and almost the normal state.

It is natural for a feeling of mere indifference to exist between men, but between women it is actual enmity. This is due perhaps to the fact that odium figulinum in the case of men, is limited to their everyday affairs, but with women embraces the whole sex; since they have only one kind of business. Even when they meet in the street, they look at each other like Guelphs and Ghibellines. And it is quite evident when two women first make each other’s acquaintance that they exhibit more constraint and dissimulation than two men placed in similar circumstances. This is why an exchange of compliments between two women is much more ridiculous than between two men. Further, while a man will, as a rule, address others, even those inferior to himself, with a certain feeling of consideration and humanity, it is unbearable to see how proudly and disdainfully a lady of rank will, for the most part, behave towards one who is in a lower rank (not employed in her service) when she speaks to her. This may be because differences of rank are much more precarious with women than with us, and consequently more quickly change their line of conduct and elevate them, or because while a hundred things must be weighed in our case, there is only one to be weighed in theirs, namely, with which man they have found favour; and again, because of the one-sided nature of their vocation they stand in closer relationship to each other than men do; and so it is they try to render prominent the differences of rank.

It is only the man whose intellect is clouded by his sexual instinct that could give that stunted, narrow-shouldered, broad-hipped, and short-legged race the name of the fair sex ; for the entire beauty of the sex is based on this instinct. One would be more justified in calling them the unaesthetic sex than the beautiful. Neither for music, nor for poetry, nor for fine art have they any real or true sense and susceptibility, and it is mere mockery on their part, in their desire to please, if they affect any such thing.

This makes them incapable of taking a purely objective interest in anything, and the reason for it is, I fancy, as follows. A man strives to get direct mastery over things either by understanding them or by compulsion. But a woman is always and everywhere driven to indirect mastery, namely through a man; all her direct mastery being limited to him alone. Therefore it lies in woman’s nature to look upon everything only as a means for winning man, and her interest in anything else is always a simulated one, a mere roundabout way to gain her ends, consisting of coquetry and pretence. Hence Rousseau said, Les femmes, en général, n’aiment aucun art, ne se connoissent à aucun et n’ont aucun génie (Lettre à d’Alembert, note xx.). Every one who can see through a sham must have found this to be the case. One need only watch the way they behave at a concert, the opera, or the play; the childish simplicity, for instance, with which they keep on chattering during the finest passages in the greatest masterpieces. If it is true that the Greeks forbade women to go to the play, they acted in a right way; for they would at any rate be able to hear something. In our day it would be more appropriate to substitute taceat mulier in theatro for taceat mulier in ecclesia ; and this might perhaps be put up in big letters on the curtain.

Nothing different can be expected of women if it is borne in mind that the most eminent of the whole sex have never accomplished anything in the fine arts that is really great, genuine, and original, or given to the world any kind of work of permanent value. This is most striking in regard to painting, the technique of which is as much within their reach as within ours; this is why they pursue it so industriously. Still, they have not a single great painting to show, for the simple reason that they lack that objectivity of mind which is precisely what is so directly necessary in painting. They always stick to what is subjective. For this reason, ordinary women have no susceptibility for painting at all: for natura non facet saltum . And Huarte, in his book which has been famous for three hundred years, Examen de ingenios para las scienzias , contends that women do not possess the higher capacities. Individual and partial exceptions do not alter the matter; women are and remain, taken altogether, the most thorough and incurable philistines; and because of the extremely absurd arrangement which allows them to share the position and title of their husbands they are a constant stimulus to his ignoble ambitions. And further, it is because they are philistines that modern society, to which they give the tone and where they have sway, has become corrupted. As regards their position, one should be guided by Napoleon’s maxim, Les femmes n’ont pas de rang ; and regarding them in other things, Chamfort says very truly: Elles sont faites pour commercer avec nos faiblesses avec notre folie, mais non avec notre raison. Il existe entre elles et les hommes des sympathies d’épiderme et très-peu de sympathies d’esprit d’âme et de caractère . They are the sexus sequior , the second sex in every respect, therefore their weaknesses should be spared, but to treat women with extreme reverence is ridiculous, and lowers us in their own eyes. When nature divided the human race into two parts, she did not cut it exactly through the middle! The difference between the positive and negative poles, according to polarity, is not merely qualitative but also quantitative. And it was in this light that the ancients and people of the East regarded woman; they recognised her true position better than we, with our old French ideas of gallantry and absurd veneration, that highest product of Christian-Teutonic stupidity. These ideas have only served to make them arrogant and imperious, to such an extent as to remind one at times of the holy apes in Benares, who, in the consciousness of their holiness and inviolability, think they can do anything and everything they please.

In the West, the woman, that is to say the “lady,” finds herself in a fausse position ; for woman, rightly named by the ancients sexus sequior , is by no means fit to be the object of our honour and veneration, or to hold her head higher than man and to have the same rights as he. The consequences of this fausse position are sufficiently clear. Accordingly, it would be a very desirable thing if this Number Two of the human race in Europe were assigned her natural position, and the lady-grievance got rid of, which is not only ridiculed by the whole of Asia, but would have been equally ridiculed by Greece and Rome. The result of this would be that the condition of our social, civil, and political affairs would be incalculably improved. The Salic law would be unnecessary; it would be a superfluous truism. The European lady, strictly speaking, is a creature who should not exist at all; but there ought to be housekeepers, and young girls who hope to become such; and they should be brought up not to be arrogant, but to be domesticated and submissive. It is exactly because there are ladies in Europe that women of a lower standing, that is to say, the greater majority of the sex, are much more unhappy than they are in the East. Even Lord Byron says (Letters and Papers , by Thomas Moore, vol. ii. p. 399), Thought of the state of women under the ancient Greeks — convenient enough. Present state, a remnant of the barbarism of the chivalric and feudal ages — artificial and unnatural. They ought to mind home — and be well fed and clothed — but not mixed in society. Well educated, too, in religion — but to read neither poetry nor politics — nothing but books of piety and cookery. Music — drawing — dancing — also a little gardening and ploughing now and then. I have seen them mending the roads in Epirus with good success. Why not, as well as hay-making and milking ?

In our part of the world, where monogamy is in force, to marry means to halve one’s rights and to double one’s duties. When the laws granted woman the same rights as man, they should also have given her a masculine power of reason. On the contrary, just as the privileges and honours which the laws decree to women surpass what Nature has meted out to them, so is there a proportional decrease in the number of women who really share these privileges; therefore the remainder are deprived of their natural rights in so far as the others have been given more than Nature accords.

For the unnatural position of privilege which the institution of monogamy, and the laws of marriage which accompany it, assign to the woman, whereby she is regarded throughout as a full equivalent of the man, which she is not by any means, cause intelligent and prudent men to reflect a great deal before they make so great a sacrifice and consent to so unfair an arrangement. Therefore, whilst among polygamous nations every woman finds maintenance, where monogamy exists the number of married women is limited, and a countless number of women who are without support remain over; those in the upper classes vegetate as useless old maids, those in the lower are reduced to very hard work of a distasteful nature, or become prostitutes, and lead a life which is as joyless as it is void of honour. But under such circumstances they become a necessity to the masculine sex; so that their position is openly recognised as a special means for protecting from seduction those other women favoured by fate either to have found husbands, or who hope to find them. In London alone there are 80,000 prostitutes. Then what are these women who have come too quickly to this most terrible end but human sacrifices on the altar of monogamy? The women here referred to and who are placed in this wretched position are the inevitable counterbalance to the European lady, with her pretensions and arrogance. Hence polygamy is a real benefit to the female sex, taking it as a whole . And, on the other hand, there is no reason why a man whose wife suffers from chronic illness, or remains barren, or has gradually become too old for him, should not take a second. Many people become converts to Mormonism for the precise reasons that they condemn the unnatural institution of monogamy. The conferring of unnatural rights upon women has imposed unnatural duties upon them, the violation of which, however, makes them unhappy. For example, many a man thinks marriage unadvisable as far as his social standing and monetary position are concerned, unless he contracts a brilliant match. He will then wish to win a woman of his own choice under different conditions, namely, under those which will render safe her future and that of her children. Be the conditions ever so just, reasonable, and adequate, and she consents by giving up those undue privileges which marriage, as the basis of civil society, alone can bestow, she must to a certain extent lose her honour and lead a life of loneliness; since human nature makes us dependent on the opinion of others in a way that is completely out of proportion to its value. While, if the woman does not consent, she runs the risk of being compelled to marry a man she dislikes, or of shrivelling up into an old maid; for the time allotted to her to find a home is very short. In view of this side of the institution of monogamy, Thomasius’s profoundly learned treatise, de Concubinatu , is well worth reading, for it shows that, among all nations, and in all ages, down to the Lutheran Reformation, concubinage was allowed, nay, that it was an institution, in a certain measure even recognised by law and associated with no dishonour. And it held this position until the Lutheran Reformation, when it was recognised as another means for justifying the marriage of the clergy; whereupon the Catholic party did not dare to remain behindhand in the matter.

It is useless to argue about polygamy, it must be taken as a fact existing everywhere, the mere regulation of which is the problem to be solved. Where are there, then, any real monogamists? We all live, at any rate for a time, and the majority of us always, in polygamy. Consequently, as each man needs many women, nothing is more just than to let him, nay, make it incumbent upon him to provide for many women. By this means woman will be brought back to her proper and natural place as a subordinate being, and the lady , that monster of European civilisation and Christian-Teutonic stupidity, with her ridiculous claim to respect and veneration, will no longer exist; there will still be women , but no unhappy women , of whom Europe is at present full. The Mormons’ standpoint is right.

In India no woman is ever independent, but each one stands under the control of her father or her husband, or brother or son, in accordance with the law of Manu.

It is certainly a revolting idea that widows should sacrifice themselves on their husband’s dead body; but it is also revolting that the money which the husband has earned by working diligently for all his life, in the hope that he was working for his children, should be wasted on her paramours. Medium tenuere beati . The first love of a mother, as that of animals and men, is purely instinctive , and consequently ceases when the child is no longer physically helpless. After that, the first love should be reinstated by a love based on habit and reason; but this often does not appear, especially where the mother has not loved the father. The love of a father for his children is of a different nature and more sincere; it is founded on a recognition of his own inner self in the child, and is therefore metaphysical in its origin.

In almost every nation, both of the new and old world, and even among the Hottentots, property is inherited by the male descendants alone; it is only in Europe that one has departed from this. That the property which men have with difficulty acquired by long-continued struggling and hard work should afterwards come into the hands of women, who, in their want of reason, either squander it within a short time or otherwise waste it, is an injustice as great as it is common, and it should be prevented by limiting the right of women to inherit. It seems to me that it would be a better arrangement if women, be they widows or daughters, only inherited the money for life secured by mortgage, but not the property itself or the capital, unless there lacked male descendants. It is men who make the money, and not women; therefore women are neither justified in having unconditional possession of it nor capable of administrating it. Women should never have the free disposition of wealth, strictly so-called, which they may inherit, such as capital, houses, and estates. They need a guardian always; therefore they should not have the guardianship of their children under any circumstances whatever. The vanity of women, even if it should not be greater than that of men, has this evil in it, that it is directed on material things — that is to say, on their personal beauty and then on tinsel, pomp, and show. This is why they are in their right element in society. This it is which makes them inclined to be extravagant , especially since they possess little reasoning power. Accordingly, an ancient writer says, [Greek: Gunae to synolon esti dapanaeron physei].10 Men’s vanity, on the other hand, is often directed on non-material advantages, such as intellect, learning, courage, and the like. Aristotle explains in the Politics 11 the great disadvantages which the Spartans brought upon themselves by granting too much to their women, by allowing them the right of inheritance and dowry, and a great amount of freedom; and how this contributed greatly to the fall of Sparta. May it not be that the influence of women in France, which has been increasing since Louis XIII.‘s time, was to blame for that gradual corruption of the court and government which led to the first Revolution, of which all subsequent disturbances have been the result? In any case, the false position of the female sex, so conspicuously exposed by the existence of the “lady,” is a fundamental defect in our social condition, and this defect, proceeding from the very heart of it, must extend its harmful influence in every direction. That woman is by nature intended to obey is shown by the fact that every woman who is placed in the unnatural position of absolute independence at once attaches herself to some kind of man, by whom she is controlled and governed; this is because she requires a master. If she, is young, the man is a lover; if she is old, a priest.

[malone]

The women involved in the space programme, just for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Kq94vwzDU

So women were involved in both the invention of the computer and the space programme. Does this change your mind? And hilarious, posting up a long essay. You really think women to be contemptible don't you? Oh well, god save your wife.

[malone]

She didn't land on the moon, did she? From skimming that article, seems like she learnt everything from charles babbage.

LOL Oh I'm sorry - did she have to have done BOTH to make it into your golden books??! I highlighted one claim that said they were not involved at all and answered that. Of course there was interchange between her and babbage, lovelace was not permitted to go to school, or to university, whereas babbage went ot a private school then cambridge. Yet she was one who wrote the first ever algorithm for the world's first computer - the first 'program'.

[uber_mensch]

The women involved in the space programme, just for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04Kq94vwzDU

So women were involved in both the invention of the computer and the space programme. Does this change your mind? And hilarious, posting up a long essay. You really think women to be contemptible don't you? Oh well, god save your wife.

Yes, providing me wiith evidence of one or two women negates my claim that no women were involved. However it is still a fact that it was overwhelmingly the case that men did this, probably 99.9% were men.

As for the charge of hating women, a typical feminist shaming tactic; "YOURE JUST A MYSOGINIST, or YOU'RE JUST ANGRY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T GET A WOMAN YOURSELF!"

You seem to have missed the point. The point is not that no woman ever is capable of math, which would be a stupid claim. The point is that on the whole they aren't capable. Why does that bother you? Why do you want to be like men?

[uber_mensch]

LOL Oh I'm sorry - did she have to have done BOTH to make it into your golden books??! I highlighted one claim that said they were not involved at all and answered that. Of course there was interchange between her and babbage, lovelace was not permitted to go to school, or to university, whereas babbage went ot a private school then cambridge. Yet she was one who wrote the first ever algorithm for the world's first computer - the first 'program'.

Excuses excuses, you have only proven one thing; that one woman was capable of doing it, not that all women are, which is obviously untrue.

On the whole women can't into computer. There are outlying bits of data, like that woman you posted, but they are the exception to the rule.

trufax

[malone]

Yes, providing me wiith evidence of one or two women negates my claim that no women were involved. However it is still a fact that it was overwhelmingly the case that men did this, probably 99.9% were men.

As for the charge of hating women, a typical feminist shaming tactic; "YOURE JUST A MYSOGINIST, or YOU'RE JUST ANGRY BECAUSE YOU CAN'T GET A WOMAN YOURSELF!"

LOL. So women have for centuries be denied education, schooling, work and careers and you're case is that that is a fair comment? It seems like women are not the illogical sex here. Your claim was that there was NO WOMEN involved at ANY stage. You have been proven wrong on both counts. Take it like a man. An uber-man.

We could extend your stupid argument further. Hey - why are there so few BLACKS on the space programme? They must not have the capacity to do this work! They must be stupid! Hey! Where are all the Pakistani astronauts! They must be a subspecies not capable of intellect. In fact, most the nobel prize winners throughout the years have had jewish background, let's all become jews!

And you are a misogynist. It is not a shaming tactic, because you have no shame. Your words are designed to hurt, and show a deep dislike of women and their capabilities. It's ok though, women had to deal with such colossally ignorant attitudes before.

[malone]

Excuses excuses, you have only proven one thing; that one woman was capable of doing it, not that all women are, which is obviously untrue.


So if all men are capable of being on the moon and computing the most complex algorithms, why are you on the internet arguing with a woman? Fell behind in math class?

[abd7861]

:salam:

Q. Can you please explain what is meant by “females are deficiently intelligent in comparison to males”. I understand there is no equality. I do, however, find difficulty understanding ‘deficiently intelligent’. As I am alleged to be ‘less intelligent’, could you refer me to the passages in the Qur’an where this is stated and while you are at it, interpret it for me as well.

A. The difficulty you have in understanding ‘deficiently intelligent’ in regard to women is on account of your natural attribute of Nuqs fil Aql (intellectual deficiency). Firstly do understand that it was Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) who had informed that females are naaqisaatul aql (deficient in intelligence). These are the words of the Nabi (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) whom you and we believe to be the Final Rasool of Allah Ta’ala. He had further explained that females are also deficient in Deen. When the ladies asked Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) to explain their deficiencies, he responded:

(1) The testimony of two women equating to the testimony of one male indicates the deficiency of their intelligence. This is substantiated by the Qur’aanic Aayat in Surah Baqarah, Aayat 282.

(2) Their inability to perform Salaat (and fast) for a number of days each month on account of haidh (menses) demonstrates their Deeni deficiency. The Sahaabiyyah ladies understood and accepted the truth and veracity of these statements of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). They entertained no doubts in this regard. Nabi (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) did not elaborate further. It is therefore superfluous for us to attempt a further elucidation, for it will merely be our opinion. There are innumerable issues of the Deen which we do not understand, but in which we believe. We do not interpret the Qur’aan and Hadith. We merely narrate the commands of Islam.

The Majlis Vol 20 No 1

:ws:

[abdulwahhab]

Why is the discussion even dealing in absolutes?

malone:

Again, not all women are intellectually "deficient" (and this is when we're applying a specific definition of intelligence, which has to do with rationalism, which is what 'aql relates to) but the fact remains, most women, even in the West do not choose fields and careers that require such faculties, such as engineering or physics. Why is that? Why do women tend to dominate the liberal arts fields in colleges and universities? Why are most science fields still "boys' clubs"? Why is it that men who are found in colleges and universities in liberal arts fields tend to be more feminine in their mannerisms?

And why are women who cry for equality so easily offended at this hadeeth but don't care when mothers are placed above fathers in other narrations?

Men and women are not equal. They were created differently. They have different physiologies. Some women are smarter than men in the fields of science, but more men are smarter than women in the fields of science. Some men are better than women in the fields of liberal arts but more women are better than men in the fields of liberal arts. You'll find outliers in both areas, but they're just that: outliers.

[samy.3660]

Assalamu Alaikum,
On a Mother:
A mother is a woman, and for her son (Man) Paradise is in her feet.
A mother is a woman, and for her son (Man) the largest haq(right) is of her mother.
From Mother and Father a mother is given preference thrice.

On a Girl:
1. If a man has 3 daughters, and treats them well, he is alloted Jannat( approx )
2. A Father who treats his sons and daughter justly is given paradise (approx )
3. Islam has forbidden killing of girl child.
4. A girl is considered a blessing

On wife:
1. A best gift(blessing) a man can get in this world is pious wife.(hadith approx)
2. A wife completes a man's half deen.
3. A wife covering of her man.

There are in-numerous hadith on greatness of woman in general in Islam, which no other religion/society/culture has given to woman. Please don't forget this.

[umairel]

Wasting time in discussing it is absolutely purposeless. Intelligence is a blessing of Allah, and it is upto Allah's Will how much He bestowed to whom. Our duty is to use how much we got in the best manner.