Congregational Witr - 2+1; How should a Hanafi respond?

[Adil Faiyaz]

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rehmatullah.

I've been planning to sit in Aitekaaf this Ramadan In-sha'Allah. I'll be in Dubai so the mosques nearby follows the Salafi tradition (by what looks apparent such as 8 Rakah Taraweeh). Following Hanafi school of thought, I'm perplexed on how to coop with the situation that will arise in respect to the congregation-al Witr salah.

They follow a similar way as followed by Imam of Harmain (Sh. Sudais, Sh. Mahir etc) which is 2 + 1, with Qunoot being prayed after Ruku of the isolated Rakah. Last year, I started to skip the congregation and complete my 12 Rakahs of Taraweeh and perform Witr later. I always had this in mind that breaking away from Jamaat is extremely sinful. Then I read somewhere (I do not remember where exactly now) that one can pray the two rakahs and add one (by standing up after Salaam) in the isolated Rakah since there is no concept of 1 Rakah in our school. However, I believed my joining to be counted as a Nafl and I used to complete my Witr later alone. Recently, I read something at askimam.org in regard to Hanafi following a Shafiee in Witr. It got me all messed up knowing that in Shafiee for some Witr is not Wajib, 3 and 2+1 both ways are permitted, etc. However, praying behind them if their intention of Witr is as Sunnah will make it not permissible. Also, they said it is preferable to abstain and pray alone in comparison to both i) join and, ii) join and repeat.

However, I wish to enquire a detailed answer on how should a Hanafi respond to the Congregational Witr Salah in Ramadan to make it clear for my understanding and practice. Also, is there any scope of finding common grounds or actually performing the Witr with Jamaat, even if it counts as a Nafl for me, like I can pray Asr in Jamaat even though Hanafi time for Asr hasn't started. I wish to be a part of the Qunoot that is recited at the end and leaving Jamaat for Nazaryati Ikhtilaaf is a bit disturbing for my little knowledge. Nevertheless, I know that my baseless thoughts and little understanding shouldn't bother me on Fiqh related issues, I hope I'll be satisfied with whatever the scholars tell me about it.

Jazak'Allah Khair.

[a.s.]

:salam:

As long as the Imam regards his prayer as valid, you can follow him in any prayer, regardless of madhab.
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=1299

Hope I helped.

:jazak:

:ws:

[a.s.]

On the other hand I found this thread: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?26199-Witr-behind-a-Shafi-for-a-Hanafi/page7

Conflicting answers. sorry.

[abdulwahhab]

:salam:

In the Hanafi madhhab, it is not sufficient that the imam's prayer is valid. If a Hanafi knows that the imam has committed something that invalidates the prayer in the Hanafi madhhab but does not invalidate it in the other madhhab (e.g. a Shafi'i imam who is bleeding leads the prayer), then the Hanafi cannot pray behind him. Similarly, if a Hanafi prays witr behind an imam who makes tasleem after the second raka't, this would not count as witr. There is no prayer with 1 rakat in the Hanafi madhhab, so the 1 rakat with its own takbeer at-tahreem would not count as valid prayer.

You can pray behind such an imam when he performs his witr with the intention of nafl salah for the 2 raka'at and then pray witr afterwards by yourself.

[abuhajira]

It is permissible to follow a Shaf’ee Imam in witr prayers on the condition that he does not make salam after the second rakah. The Hanafi followers will say their qunoot the when the Shaf’ee Imam says it; after the ruku’.

If the Imam makes salam after the second rakah and then performs the third rakah separately, the witr of the hanafi followers will not be valid.

Al-Durr al-Mukhtar ma’ Rad al-Muhtar (2:7) Dar al-Fikr

Al-Fatawa al-Hindiya (1:111) Maktaba Rasheediya



- (وصح الاقتداء فيه) ففي غيره أولى إن لم يتحقق منه ما يفسدها في الأصح كما بسطه في البحر (بشافعي) مثلا (لم يفصله بسلام) لا إن فصله (على الأصح) فيهما للاتحاد وإن اختلف الاعتقاد (و) لذا (ينوب الوتر لا الوتر الواجب كما في العيدين) للاختلاف (ويأتي المأموم بقنوت الوتر) ولو بشافعي يقنت بعد الركوع لأنه مجتهد فيه (الدر المختار)

- ولو صلى الوتر بمن يقنت في الوتر بعد الركوع في القومة والمقتدي لا يرى ذلك تابعه فيه . هكذا في فتاوى قاضي خان (الفتاوى الهندية)

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Ml. Ehzaz Ajmeri,
Student Darul Iftaa

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?26199-Witr-behind-a-Shafi-for-a-Hanafi&p=230165&viewfull=1#post230165

[Adil Faiyaz]

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

Understood. However, I am not sure if they are Shafiee rather I feel they are Salafi since they pray 8 Rakah taraveeh only. Since, I'll probably be in the first saff In-sha'Allah and in the Aitekaaf. What should I do?

a) Leave the Jama'at and go behind and complete my prayers alone. - (I feel it would give the impression of creating fitna and it makes me uncomfortable, though I may by wrong)
b) Join them and pray alongside, and afterwards as a precautionary measure pray my Witr again alone. (I feel better this way, if there is any scope of I not leaving the Jamaat)

Mufti Sahab can you please tell me which one is better for me to do.

[PakSwed]

Assalamu aleikum,

If the imam prays 2+1, will it be permissable to intend the first 2 rakats as nafl and the last rakat as Witr, but standing up and performing 2 additional rakats (total 3) when the imam makes salam of the last rakat?

[Adil Faiyaz]

I just noticed they don't have Qunoot like the Imam of Haramain Shareef do (i.e. Qunoot after Ruku of the solo rakah) rather they have an extra long Sajda in the solo rakah. I guess that is when they recite their qunoot, however the Sajda is silent like usual.

[Taliban1]

:salam:

Today in masjid e nabawi we prayed the fisrt taraweeh. Alhamdulillah got to meet many big muftis from india and pakistan - all hanafis.

What i found out was that majority of the muftis prayed witr with jamaat and their view is that its okay. i specifically asked them, they said they wont repeat it alone.

Mufti abdur rauf sakharwi from darul uloom karachi did not read with jamaat.

Mufti abdur raheem head mufti of jamiat ur rasheed prayed with jamaat and i asked him. He said its okay.

A student and khalifah of mufti mehmood gangohi from india also prayed with jamaat.

The list is long of those who prayed with jamaat behind imam of haram.

This is enough (atleast for me) to pray behind imam of haram with jamaat and inshaAllah its okay.

:jazak:

['Abdullaah]

:salam:

Today in masjid e nabawi we prayed the fisrt taraweeh. Alhamdulillah got to meet many big muftis from india and pakistan - all hanafis.

What i found out was that majority of the muftis prayed witr with jamaat and their view is that its okay. i specifically asked them, they said they wont repeat it alone.

Mufti abdur rauf sakharwi from darul uloom karachi did not read with jamaat.

Mufti abdur raheem head mufti of jamiat ur rasheed prayed with jamaat and i asked him. He said its okay.

A student and khalifah of mufti mehmood gangohi from india also prayed with jamaat.

The list is long of those who prayed with jamaat behind imam of haram.

This is enough (atleast for me) to pray behind imam of haram with jamaat and inshaAllah its okay.

:jazak:


:salam:

Could you kindly describe the method of witr prayed in the Haram?
Also, was their reasoning of acceptance solely due to the place being the Haram, or regardless of where it's prayed, they would still consider the method acceptable for the hanafis any where in the world?
:jazak:

:salam:

[ArashSajjad]

This is from The Majlis Volume 18 Number 12:



Question: Is it permissible for Hanafis to follow a Shaafi ’ Imaam in Witr Salaat during Ramadhaan? If the Imaam is a Hanafi, can Shaafi’s follow in the Witr? Is there any difference in the Musjids in Makkah and Madina (the Haramain)?

Answer: It is not permissible for a Hanafi to follow a Shaafi’ Imaam in Witr. The reason for the prohibition are:
(a) The Shaafi makes niyyat of Sunnat whereas for the Hanafi it is Waajib.
(b) The Shaafi performs two and one raka’ts separately, i.e. with two Salaams whereas this is not permissible for Hanafis. This ruling applies in all Musaajid, even in the Haramain Musjids.
It is permissible for the Shaafi’ to follow the Hanafi in Witr since three raka’ts performed by the Wasl method is valid.

[PakSwed]

Can Mufti Saheb please look into if my suggestion is acceptable:


If the imam prays 2+1, will it be permissable to intend the first 2 rakats as nafl and the last rakat as Witr, but standing up and performing 2 additional rakats (total 3) when the imam makes salam of the last rakat?

[abuhajira]

:salam:

Unfortunately it will not be sufficient to follow the above procedure. It is better to pray individually than to make your witr salah as above. While all the Ulama Ml. Taliban have mentioned are opting for their action, the view of the madhab is kept in sight. Here is a detail answer from Mufti Talha Desai Saheb.

Also note that, though the answer starts with following a Shafi'i imam, it also deals with following Imams of Haram. So your scenario will be included therein as well.

--

According to the Hanafi Mazhhab, Witr salaat is waajib and performed with one salaam at the end of the third rakaat. According to the Shafi’ee Mazhhab, Witr salaat is Sunna and not wajib, performed with two salaams. There are other views as well within the Shafi’ee Mazhahib.

However, there are two fundamental difficulties encountered in a Hanafi following a Shafi’ee Imam in Witr salaat.

Firstly, witr salaat is waajib for Hanafi’s and sunna for Shafi’ees. Following a Shafi’ee Imam will necessitate Iqtida’ul muftarid khalfal mutanaffil (praying an obligatory salaat behind an Imam praying a salaat which is not obligatory), which is not recognised in the Hanafi Mazhhab.

Secondly, Shafi’ee Imams generally make salaam after the second rakaat of witr salaat. According to Hanafi’s, salaam is regarded to be Qati’us salaat (breaker of prayer). Following an Imam that makes salaam after the second rakaat of witr salaat is impermissible, as this salaam terminates the witr salaat.

Furthermore, the validity of a Shafi’ee Imam’s salaat does not necessitate the validity of a Hanafi Muqtadi’s salaat. In principle, the view of the Muqtadi is considered in determining the validity of his salaat behind an Imam. If the Hanafi Muqtadi is aware of the Imam carrying out actions that invalidate salaat or wudhu, he cannot perform salaat behind such an Imam. Hence, it will not be permissible to follow a Shafi’ee Imam in salaat, whose intention is of performing sunna witr salaat and makes salaam after two rakaats, as these invalidate the salaat in the Hanafi Mazhhab.


باب صلاة النفل قسمان: قسم لا يسن جماعة، فمنه الرواتب مع الفرائض وهي: ركعتان قبل الصبح، وركعتان قبل الظهر، وكذا بعدها وبعد المغرب والعشاء. وقيل لا راتب للعشاء. وقيل أربع قبل الظهر، وقيل وأربع بعدها. وقيل وأربع قبل العصر، والجميع سنة، وإنما الخلاف في الراتب المؤكد. وركعتان خفيفتان قبل المغرب. قلت: هما سنة على الصحيح، ففي صحيح البخاري الأمر بهما وبعد الجمعة أربع. وقبلها ما قبل الظهر. والله أعلم.
ومنه الوتر، وأقله ركعة، وأكثره إحدى عشرة (المنهاج 1/44)
وذهب جمهور الفقهاء إلي أن الوتر سنة مؤكدة وليس واجبا ........وذهب أبو حنيفة خلافا لصاحبيه – وأبو بكر من الحنابلة إلي أن الوتر واجب وليس بفرض (الموسوعة الفقهية الكويتية 27/289)



Our respected Ustadh, Mufti Ebrahim Desai Sahab conducted a research when there was a difference of opinion on this issue amongst certain Ulama approximately 15 years ago. His view was that witr is not permissible behind the Imams of Haramain. The different views were presented to Darul Uloom Karachi, which supported the view of non permissibility. Unfortunately we do not have record of those researches and the Fatwa from Darul Uloom Karachi. It is possible that Madrassa Ta’leemudeen has a copy of those researches and the Fatwa.

Many of our Akabireen have clearly stated in their Fatawa Books that it is not permissible to follow an Imam that makes salaam after two rakaats in witr salaat.

Hereunder, we present the conditions mentioned by our Fuqahaa for the validity of a Hanafi following a Shafi’ee Imam:

- The Shafi’ee Imam should not do actions that will invalidate his wudhu or salaat according to the Hanafi Mazhhab. For example, he makes masah of less than quarter head. Though his wudhu is acceptable in the Shafi’ee Mazhhab, it is not acceptable in the Hanafi Mazhhab. Hence, in such instance, it will not be permissible to follow him in salaat.


مَطْلَبٌ فِي الِاقْتِدَاءِ بِشَافِعِيٍّ وَنَحْوِهِ هَلْ يُكْرَهُ أَمْ لَا ؟ وَظَاهِرُ كَلَامِ شَرْحِ الْمُنْيَةِ أَيْضًا حَيْثُ قَالَ : وَأَمَّا الِاقْتِدَاءُ بِالْمُخَالِفِ فِي الْفُرُوعِ كَالشَّافِعِيِّ فَيَجُوزُ مَا لَمْ يُعْلَمْ مِنْهُ مَا يُفْسِدُ الصَّلَاةَ عَلَى اعْتِقَادِ الْمُقْتَدِي عَلَيْهِ الْإِجْمَاع ( رد المحتار 1/563، سعيد)

لَكِنْ ذَكَرَ الْعَلَّامَةُ نُوحٌ أَفَنْدِي أَنَّ اعْتِبَارَ رَأْيِ الْمُقْتَدِي فِي الْجَوَازِ وَعَدَمِهِ مُتَّفَقٌ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّمَا الْخِلَافُ الْمَارُّ فِي اعْتِبَارِ رَأْيِ الْإِمَامِ أَيْضًا ؛ فَالْحَنَفِيُّ إذَا رَأَى فِي ثَوْبِ إمَامٍ شَافِعِيٍّ مَنِيًّا لَا يَجُوزُ اقْتِدَاؤُهُ بِهِ اتِّفَاقًا ، وَإِنْ رَأَى نَجَاسَةً قَلِيلَةً جَازَ عِنْدَ الْجُمْهُورِ (رد المحتار 2/8، سعيد)



- The Hanafi Muqtadi should have certainty that the Shafi’ee Imam is cautious in those rulings wherein there exists difference of opinion between the two Mazhhabs. For example, if any limb of the Shafi’ee Imam bleeds, he makes wudhu, accommodating the Hanafi Mazhhab. In this instance, it will be permissible to follow him in salaat.

If the Hanafi Muqtadi is certain that the Shafi’ee Imam is not cautious in this regard; he cannot perform salaat behind him. And if he is doubtful as to whether the Shafi’ee Imam is cautious or not, it will be Makruh Al-Tahrimi to perform salaat behind him.


لكن في وتر البحر إن تيقن المراعاة لم يكره أو عدمها لم يصح إن شك كره ( و ) يكره تحريما (الدر المختار 1/563)
( قَوْلُهُ لَكِنْ فِي وِتْرِ الْبَحْرِ إلَخْ ) هَذَا هُوَ الْمُعْتَمَدُ ، لِأَنَّ الْمُحَقِّقِينَ جَنَحُوا إلَيْهِ ، وَقَوَاعِدُ الْمَذْهَبِ شَاهِدَةٌ عَلَيْهِ .
وَقَالَ كَثِيرٌ مِنْ الْمَشَايِخِ : إنْ كَانَ عَادَتُهُ مُرَاعَاةَ مَوَاضِعِ الْخِلَافِ جَازَ وَإِلَّا فَلَا ، ذَكَرَهُ السِّنْدِيُّ الْمُتَقَدِّمُ ذِكْرُهُ ح .
قُلْت : وَهَذَا بِنَاءً عَلَى أَنَّ الْعِبْرَةَ لِرَأْيِ الْمُقْتَدِي وَهُوَ الْأَصَحُّ....... ( قَوْلُهُ إنْ تَيَقَّنَ الْمُرَاعَاةَ لَمْ يُكْرَهْ إلَخْ ) أَيْ الْمُرَاعَاةُ فِي الْفَرَائِضِ مِنْ شُرُوطٍ وَأَرْكَانٍ فِي تِلْكَ الصَّلَاةِ وَإِنْ لَمْ يُرَاعِ الْوَاجِبَاتِ وَالسُّنَنَ كَمَا هُوَ ظَاهِرُ سِيَاقِ كَلَامِ الْبَحْرِ . ( رد المحتار 1/563، سعيد)
( قَوْلُهُ كَمَا بَسَطَهُ فِي الْبَحْرِ ) حَيْثُ ذَكَرَ أَنَّ الْحَاصِلَ أَنَّهُ إنْ عَلِمَ الِاحْتِيَاطَ مِنْهُ فِي مَذْهَبِنَا فَلَا كَرَاهَةَ فِي الِاقْتِدَاءِ بِهِ وَإِنْ عَلِمَ عَدَمَهُ فَلَا صِحَّةَ ، وَإِنْ لَمْ يَعْلَمْ شَيْئًا كُرِهَ ( رد المحتار 2/7، سعيد)


- The Shafi’ee Imaam should not make two salaams in Witr Salaat (salaam after the second rakaat and after the third rakaat). If he makes two salaams, it will not be permissible to follow him.
(Khairul Fatawa, vol 2, pg 517, Maktaba Imdadiyya / Risalah - Iqtida Bi Al-Shafi’iyya by Shaykh Ali Sindhi, Makhtuut / Fatawa Uthmani, vol 1, pg 517, Maktaba Ma’arif Al-Quran)


( وَصَحَّ الِاقْتِدَاءُ فِيهِ ) فَفِي غَيْرِهِ أَوْلَى إنْ لَمْ يَتَحَقَّقْ مِنْهُ مَا يُفْسِدُهَا فِي الْأَصَحِّ كَمَا بَسَطَهُ فِي الْبَحْرِ ( بِشَافِعِيٍّ ) مَثَلًا ( لَمْ يَفْصِلْهُ بِسَلَامٍ ) لَا إنْ فَصَلَهُ ( عَلَى الْأَصَحِّ ) فِيهِمَا لِلِاتِّحَادِ وَإِنْ اخْتَلَفَ الِاعْتِقَادُ(الدر المختار 2/7،سعيد)


If the above conditions are fulfilled, it will be permissible to follow a Shafi’ee Imam in Witr salaat. The Hanafi Muqtadi will recite the Qunoot after the ruku’ of the third rakat.


وَلَوْ بِشَافِعِيٍّ يَقْنُتُ بَعْدَ الرُّكُوعِ لِأَنَّهُ مُجْتَهِدٌ فِيهِ ( لَا الْفَجْرِ ) لِأَنَّهُ مَنْسُوخٌ ( بَلْ يَقِفُ سَاكِتًا عَلَى الْأَظْهَرِ ) مُرْسِلًا يَدَيْهِ . (الدر المختار 2/7،سعيد)


We are not in a position to issue a ruling regarding a Shafi’ee following a Hanafi Imam. Shafi’ee Ulama should be consulted for a ruling. However, Allamah Aini (Rahimahullah) has stated that the conditions applicable to a Hanafi following a Shafi’ee will also be applicable in the case of a Shafi’ee following a Hanafi.


الشافعي أيضا يقول بمثله في حق الحنفي فيقول : لا يجوز إقتداء الشافعي الحنفي إلا إذا كان يحتاط في موضع الخلاف........ يجوز إقتداء الحنفي بالشافعي و الشافعي بالحنفي وكذا بالمالكي والحنبلي ما لم يتحقق من إمامه ما يفسد صلاته في إعتقاده (رمز الحقائق 1/46، إدارة القرآن كما في فتاوي عثماني)

If the Imams of the Haramain abide by the conditions mentioned by our Fuqahaa, it will be permissible to perform salaat behind them. In the case of Witr salaat, if they make two salaams, it will not be permissible to perform salaat behind them. The Witr salaat should be performed separately. It will be incorrect to perform the Witr salaat behind the Imam and thereafter repeat it.

Note:
Ihtiyaat and precaution is to perform witr salaat individually even if the Imams of Haramain makes one salaam, as they consider witr salaat as sunna whilst Hanafi’s consider it wajib.

The Fuqahaa have stated:
If the Shafi’ee Imam makes a general intention of witr salaat, it will be permissible to follow him. However, if he makes an intention of performing sunna or nafl witr, he cannot be followed. Generally, muqtadi’s are unaware of the intention of the Imam. Hence, Ihtiyaat will be to perform salaat individually.
(Risalah - Iqtida Bi Al-Shafi’iyya by Shaykh Ali Sindhi, Makhtuut / Imdad Al-Ahkam, vol 1, pg 591, Maktaba Darul Uloom Karachi)


وبالثاني كذالك .فهذا غير مشروع قصدا لأنه تكرار الفرض وهو منهي عنه ومكروه بلا عذر..............إن الشروع في الصلاة مع الإحتمال للفساد أو الكراهة قبيح و مكروه لما فيه من تعرض العمل علي البطلان أو النقصان فتعين الإحتراز عنه (رسالة في بيان الإقتداء بالشافعية والخلاف في ذالك ، شيخ علي السندي ، مخطوط)


The following books could be consulted for further reference:

(Tabyeen Al- Haqaaiq with Hashiyya of Shalabi / Al- Hidaya / Risalah - Iqtida Bi Al-Shafi’iyya by Shaykh Ali Sindhi, Makhtuut / Fath Al-Qadeer / Al-Bahr al-Raiq with Minha Al-Khaliq / Al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya / Fatawaa Uthmani / Imdaad Al-Ahkam)

And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Talha Desai

[NNoor]

The imam who is leading tarawih at my masjid proposed the following method of witr, and said that it is acceptable to all mazahib:

3 rakat with one taslim, but qunut is read aloud by the imam after ruku.

Is it really acceptable to all mazahib?

[Adil Faiyaz]

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

Mufti Sahab, the local Imam is now leading in a different way. I am totally unaware of what is this method so chose to leave out after 8 Rakahs. The local Imam now prays Witr with one Salam, however he does not sit after the second Rakah but rather stands up like he does in the first. Also, there is no qunoot aloud rather there are two comparatively longer Sajda-s in the third Rakah. Should I join or keep praying alone as I do abhi?

Apologies for so many questions on the same topic. I'm confused.

[NNoor]

bump


The imam who is leading tarawih at my masjid proposed the following method of witr, and said that it is acceptable to all mazahib:

3 rakat with one taslim, but qunut is read aloud by the imam after ruku.

Is it really acceptable to all mazahib?

[mohtashims]

:salam:

According to Hanafi’s, salaam is regarded to be Qati’us salaat (breaker of prayer).

[/B]

Mufti Saheb if the above was true then how come Hanafi do Salam with "Sajda Sa'oo" before completing their salah in case of breaking a wajib whilst salah?

[abdulwahhab]

Mufti Saheb if the above was true then how come Hanafi do Salam with "Sajda Sa'oo" before completing their salah in case of breaking a wajib whilst salah?

:salam:

Tasleem involves a salaam to the right and then to the left. You'll notice that in janazah salah, Hanafis say salaam both to the right and then to the left. So, the salah is not finished until both salaams are said. This is just my logical assumption at this point. Mufti saheb can provide evidence from hadeeth.

[a.s.]

Mufti Saheb if the above was true then how come Hanafi do Salam with "Sajda Sa'oo" before completing their salah in case of breaking a wajib whilst salah?

:salam:

Sajda sahw is performed with only one salam to the right, in the Hanafi Madhab. Im assuming the breaking of salah only happens when both salams (to the left and right) are performed. Mufti sahb can confrm.

:jazak:

:ws:

[a.s.]

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

Mufti Sahab, the local Imam is now leading in a different way. I am totally unaware of what is this method so chose to leave out after 8 Rakahs. The local Imam now prays Witr with one Salam, however he does not sit after the second Rakah but rather stands up like he does in the first. Also, there is no qunoot aloud rather there are two comparatively longer Sajda-s in the third Rakah. Should I join or keep praying alone as I do abhi?

Apologies for so many questions on the same topic. I'm confused.

:salam:

I think that witr with three rakah with one sitting all throughout is also an option in the shafi'i madhab. Dont know what to make of the prolonged sajdahs. Any shafi'i brother who can further explain this, or muftu abuhajira?

:jazak:

:ws:

[SASLAMS]

The Fuqahaa have stated:
If the Shafi’ee Imam makes a general intention of witr salaat, it will be permissible to follow him. However, if he makes an intention of performing sunna or nafl witr, he cannot be followed. Generally, muqtadi’s are unaware of the intention of the Imam. Hence, Ihtiyaat will be to perform salaat individually.

In the shafi'ee madhab. if general intention is made then that salah would still not be accepted as wajib. so there would still be a problem. the intention of a fardh has to state three things. 1. the thing you doing (usalli) ; the type of salah (dhuhr, subuh); & you must mention fardh. so i would think it would be impossible for the Imaam to intent a fardh for a general intention because he would have to say "fardhan" in he's intention. A general intention will only be valid for a sunnah salah. we can make three rakaats in one go though but it still wouldnt be sufficient. i would suggest the brother team up with a few others & make the last few rakaats of taraweeh together & then the witr.

[SASLAMS]

Mufti Saheb if the above was true then how come Hanafi do Salam with "Sajda Sa'oo" before completing their salah in case of breaking a wajib whilst salah?

i think the issue is more that the imaams salah is terminated

[SASLAMS]

:salam:

I think that witr with three rakah with one sitting all throughout is also an option in the shafi'i madhab. Dont know what to make of the prolonged sajdahs. Any shafi'i brother who can further explain this, or muftu abuhajira?

:jazak:

:ws:

maybe the imaam forgot to make the first tashahhud. we still have to make two tashahhud as in maghrib. shafis only make qunoot in the second half of ramadhan. the long sujidah is perhabs just the imaams wish for extra dua.

[mohtashims]

i think the issue is more that the imaams salah is terminated

Sorry, I did not get this.. can you please explain clearly ...

[SASLAMS]

Sorry, I did not get this.. can you please explain clearly ...

the shafi' imaams salah is terminated with the first tasleem(valid for him but not for you), & since this is witr & its wajib for the ahnaaf to read three full rakaats then your salah would be invalid because the imaams salah is invalid according your madhab.

[ukbaz]

:salam:

just wanted to confirm something.
in the mosque i pray taraweeh the witr is read as 3 rakaats, but the dua is read after the ruku with hands raised,(shafi method).

I have read on this forum that a hanafi can join in and also raise his hands and say 'ameen' to the dua's, that this will not invalidate the witr, i cant find the fatawa though, can someone please confirm this is correct and perhaps post the fatawa, :jazak:
:ws:

[Adil Faiyaz]

It is permissible to follow a Shaf’ee Imam in witr prayers on the condition that he does not make salam after the second rakah. The Hanafi followers will say their qunoot the when the Shaf’ee Imam says it; after the ruku’.

If the Imam makes salam after the second rakah and then performs the third rakah separately, the witr of the hanafi followers will not be valid.

Al-Durr al-Mukhtar ma’ Rad al-Muhtar (2:7) Dar al-Fikr

Al-Fatawa al-Hindiya (1:111) Maktaba Rasheediya



- (وصح الاقتداء فيه) ففي غيره أولى إن لم يتحقق منه ما يفسدها في الأصح كما بسطه في البحر (بشافعي) مثلا (لم يفصله بسلام) لا إن فصله (على الأصح) فيهما للاتحاد وإن اختلف الاعتقاد (و) لذا (ينوب الوتر لا الوتر الواجب كما في العيدين) للاختلاف (ويأتي المأموم بقنوت الوتر) ولو بشافعي يقنت بعد الركوع لأنه مجتهد فيه (الدر المختار)

- ولو صلى الوتر بمن يقنت في الوتر بعد الركوع في القومة والمقتدي لا يرى ذلك تابعه فيه . هكذا في فتاوى قاضي خان (الفتاوى الهندية)

And Allah knows best

Wassalam

Ml. Ehzaz Ajmeri,
Student Darul Iftaa

Checked and Approved by:

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?26199-Witr-behind-a-Shafi-for-a-Hanafi&p=230165&viewfull=1#post230165

First page of this thread.

[NNoor]

The imam who is leading tarawih at my masjid proposed the following method of witr, and said that it is acceptable to all mazahib:

3 rakat with one taslim, but qunut is read aloud by the imam after ruku.

Is it really acceptable to all mazahib?

bump

[alfatiha]

maybe the imaam forgot to make the first tashahhud. we still have to make two tashahhud as in maghrib. shafis only make qunoot in the second half of ramadhan. the long sujidah is perhabs just the imaams wish for extra dua.


:salam: the 3-rakaat one-salam without tashahhud awwal is an option in Shafi'i madhhab.

[a.s.]

:salam: the 3-rakaat one-salam without tashahhud awwal is an option in Shafi'i madhhab.

:jazak: for confirming akhi.

[afriki_haqq]

:salam:

Whilst reading the malfuzat of Mufti Mahmud al-Hasan :rahim: I came across the following incident:

I (Mufti Mahmud Hasan Gangohi رحمة الله عليه) once spent Ramadan in Makkah Mukarramah with Hadhrat Shyakh Mawlana Muhammad Zakariyya رحمة الله عليه . We performed tarawih in the Haram Shareef with jamaat behind the Imam. (Tarawih is performed in the same way according to all the A’immah.) However, we performed the Witr Salaah with our own jamaat in the Haram Shareef because Witr Salaah is performed with two salaams in the Haram, whereas we perform it with one salaam. After a few days, we were barred from reading Witr Salaah with our separate jamaat in the Haram Shareef.

Hence, Hadhrat Shaykh رحمة الله عليه would leave the Haram after performing tarawih Salaah and perform his Witr with jamaat at his residence. On the other hand, I would perform Witr alone in the Haram Shareef individually. One day, Hadhrat Shaykh رحمة الله عليه asked Mawlana Yusuf Binnori رحمة الله عليه in my presence, “Do you prefer performing Witr alone in the Haram Shareef or reading it out of the Haram with jamaat?”

He replied, “Performing with jamaat is more desirable although it is out of the Haram.” Hadhrat Shaykh رحمة الله عليه then said, “Amongst us are such people who prefer reading the Witr alone in the Haram.”

However, I still continued performing Witr individually in the Haram because the virtue of the Haram Shareef is very great. Mawlana Muhammad Yusuf Binnori رحمة الله عليه mentioned that Witr isperformed with jamaat only in Ramadan and not out of Ramadan . Hence, performing Witr with jamaat is more virtuous even though it may be outside the precincts of the Haram.

(Malfuzat Faqih al-Ummah, 2:526-527)

From the above I deduce that all three of these 'ulama did not perform witr salaah with jama'ah in the Haram.

:ws:

[Adil Faiyaz]

:jazak:

Mufti Abu Hajira's first reply that I can pray behind a Shafi'i Imam if he prays three rakats with one salam. I understood the fact that it is major-ly regarded as not permissible in our school to pray 2+1 for very apparent reasons. The last question is, the Imam of our Masjid used to pray 2+1, now he consistently prays Witr 3 Rakah with only one salam. However, he does not sit in the second rakah for tashahhud (as stated tashahhud al-awwal) rather he stands up and continues his third raka'ah. In addition, he does not say any qunoot out loud. There are slightly extended Sujood in the third Rakah, which can be neglectful at times. Can I pray behind him? Will it count as my Witr?

I read here that not saying Qunoot before the 15th of Ramadan is also an option. I guess maybe the Imam is opting for this method (i.e. to not pray Qunoot before 15th Ramadan). I'll In-sha'Allah, update if the Imam says the Qunoot after the 15th of Ramadan. Should I join the Imam as he is praying three Raka'ah witr with one salaam (which was the condition stated in the first Fatwa quoted be Mufti Sahab). Or should I wait to see if he prays Qunoot after 15th Ramadan then I should ask the ruling to join him?

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

P.S: The adding one Raka'ah in the solo Raka'ah of Imam (if he is praying 2+1) to make it a Nafil for me. I read it at http://www.askimam.org a Fatwa by Mufti Ebrahim Desai db but since the recent updates on the websites; the fatwa is missing. However I do have the copy of it saved. I wish to ask that joining 2+1 (and adding one of my own into the solo Raka'ah) and making the intention of Taraveeh, can it be made up as my Taraveeh and not Nafl?

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

[Aamirahm]

This is a little off but theres gotta be a hanafi mosque in dubai..atleast in sharjah somewhere ....

[Adil Faiyaz]

Now, the Imam does pray Qunoot after the Ruku' of the third Raka'ah.

My questions:

1) Is it permissible for me to join the congregation and will it count as a Witr for me? Since according to the first fatwa, Imam prays 3 raka'ah witr with one salam. However, Imam does not sit in the first Tashahud.

2) If it is not counted as my Witr, can I still join it and then pray my Witr later?

Jazak'Allah Khayr.

[SASLAMS]

just yesterday I heard on the Radio: the question came from a hanafi hafidh who leads taraweeh in a shafi masjid. he ased about the same thing. the mufti said if there is no room for a second jamaat they cany make witr behind you & you can make witr behind them in one jamaat. he was a hanafi mufti from darul Ihasaan

[Khali]

:salam:

Witr Prayer Behind An Imam Who Seperates the Three Raka'aat

Answered by Shaykh Yusuf Badat

Question:

Being a follower of the Quran & Sunnah according to the Hanafi methodology, I perform the witr prayer in three raka’aats, two sittings, with the concluding salams at the end of the three raka’aats. I am planning Umrah in Ramadan and was wondering if my witr prayer would be valid behind an imam who performs the witr prayer in such a way where there are two sets of salams in the three raka’aats, one set after the second raka’ah, and the other at the end of the third raka’ah. Would I have to repeat the witr prayer for it to be valid?

Answer:

Jazak Allah for contacting the Mathabah Foundation for your query. Masha Allah, on your upcoming Umrah trip, during the blessed month of Ramadan.

In response to your concern, kindly note that the differences of opinion amongst the reliable jurists, are not that of truth and falsehood. Rather they are simply differences of preference and correctness; hence it would be permissible to follow an Imam (in salah) who differs in the furooaat (minor matters of deen). One can perform the prayer in the same manner as how such an imam would be leading the prayer. There would be no need to repeat the witr prayer or perform separately, as I personally have seen some people do.

The great Hanafi jurist and commentator of the Glorious Quran, Imam Abu Bakr Al Jassas Al Razi has permitted a Hanafi to follow a Shafie Imam, who performs the witr prayer with fasl (separation in the three raka’aats). (See Nawaazil Fiqhiyyah Muaasirah)

Imam Ibn Al Humaam states, “The Hanafi following behind one who conducts salams at the conclusion of two raka’aats in witr, is permissible; he is also permitted to perform with him the remainder (one raka’ah). This is because the imam (leading), according to his fiqh, has not exited the salah by the salam”. (Fath Al Qadeer, Al Bahr Al Raaiq)

The Prophet (pbuh) stated, “The imam (who leads the prayer) is responsible” (Sunan Al Kubra)

Related Answer: Witr; 3 Raka'ahs with One Salam

And Allah Knows Best

Source:

http://www.mathabah.org/20110720590/hanafi-prayer-salah/witr-prayer-behind-an-imam-who-seperates-the-three-rakaaat.html

See also this fatwa:

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?id=1299

:ws:

[Mulla]

From www.ashrafiya.com/2011/07/28/witr-with-congregation-in-haramain/
An individual inquired regarding offering witr salah with congregation in Haramain sharif (where they offer it with two rakah ending with salam followed with a single rakat with dua e qunoot after rukoo).

Sayyidi wa sanadi Shaikh Mufti Mohammad Taqi Usmani (Allah preserve him) replied,

‘It is better (afdhal) to offer it individually (i.e. without congregation).’

Mataf, Masjid al-Haram, Makkah e mukarramah, 26th July 20011, after esha

At another instance Mufti sahib had added that ‘however, if offered with congregation it will be valid and has not to be repeated. Additionally, it has been observed that occasionally Mufti sahib offers witr in congregation in Haramain sharif.

[AbdurRaheem2]

Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rehmatullah.

I've been planning to sit in Aitekaaf this Ramadan In-sha'Allah. I'll be in Dubai so the mosques nearby follows the Salafi tradition (by what looks apparent such as 8 Rakah Taraweeh). Following Hanafi school of thought, I'm perplexed on how to coop with the situation that will arise in respect to the congregation-al Witr salah.

They follow a similar way as followed by Imam of Harmain (Sh. Sudais, Sh. Mahir etc) which is 2 + 1, with Qunoot being prayed after Ruku of the isolated Rakah. Last year, I started to skip the congregation and complete my 12 Rakahs of Taraweeh and perform Witr later. I always had this in mind that breaking away from Jamaat is extremely sinful. Then I read somewhere (I do not remember where exactly now) that one can pray the two rakahs and add one (by standing up after Salaam) in the isolated Rakah since there is no concept of 1 Rakah in our school. However, I believed my joining to be counted as a Nafl and I used to complete my Witr later alone. Recently, I read something at askimam.org in regard to Hanafi following a Shafiee in Witr. It got me all messed up knowing that in Shafiee for some Witr is not Wajib, 3 and 2+1 both ways are permitted, etc. However, praying behind them if their intention of Witr is as Sunnah will make it not permissible. Also, they said it is preferable to abstain and pray alone in comparison to both i) join and, ii) join and repeat.

However, I wish to enquire a detailed answer on how should a Hanafi respond to the Congregational Witr Salah in Ramadan to make it clear for my understanding and practice. Also, is there any scope of finding common grounds or actually performing the Witr with Jamaat, even if it counts as a Nafl for me, like I can pray Asr in Jamaat even though Hanafi time for Asr hasn't started. I wish to be a part of the Qunoot that is recited at the end and leaving Jamaat for Nazaryati Ikhtilaaf is a bit disturbing for my little knowledge. Nevertheless, I know that my baseless thoughts and little understanding shouldn't bother me on Fiqh related issues, I hope I'll be satisfied with whatever the scholars tell me about it.

Jazak'Allah Khair.

lol thats funny I face exactly the opposite problem (following Maliki school but mostly praying at a Masjid with a Hanafi Imam).

PS. As far as I know Masjids in Dubai and Abu Dhabi are largely Maliki not Salafi, but more Salafi in Sharjah

[SASLAMS]

funny ramadha is over & now we getting fatwas now that state that the ahnaaf can follow the shawafi in witr even if it is a 2 + 1 witr

[abuhajira]

:salam:

its almost as if we were simply awaiting fatwa which would give permission.

[SASLAMS]

well ramadhan was overcome by this thread but atleast it wasnt the 8 / 20 taraweeh thing. now we wait to for Rabil Awwal for the next debate.

[afriki_haqq]

:salam:

Question: Is it permissible for Ḥanafīs to follow Shāfiʿīs in Witr Ṣalāh and vice versa during the holy month of Ramadhaan?

Answer: It is permissible for Ḥanafīs to follow Shāfiʿīs in Witr Ṣalāh just as it is permissible for Shāfiʿīs to follow Ḥanafīs, provided a few points are kept in mind:


The Shāfiʿī Imām should perform three Rakʿāts of Witr Ṣalāh with one Salām. One of the great Shāfiʿī scholars, Imām Nawawī (R.A.) has stated in Sharḥul Muhaẓẓab Pg. 3, vol. 4, that this would be more meritorious and more preferred. If he performs it with two Salāms then the Ḥanafī follower’s without making salaam should stand and complete the third rakaat and also recite the Dua Qunūt as a Masbooq (late comer) does. The is no need to repeat the Salaah thereafter.
During the first 15 days of Ramaḍān, the Ḥanafī Imām should perform the Witr and from the 16th night, the Shāfiʿī Imām should perform the Witr Ṣalāh. (Sharḥul Muhaẓẓab Pg 15 vol. 4)
As far as the Ḥanafī followers are concerned, they should recite the Qunūṭ of Witr after Rukuʿ when following the Shāfiʿī Imām and they should recite the Qunūṭ without lifting the hands.

If these few points are kept in mind, then it would be very easy to combine these two Jamaats and both sides will gain the full reward of Witr Insha-Allah.

And Almighty Allah knows best.

(Fatāwā Darul Uloom Zakariyya, 2:422-426)

:jazak:

[mospike]

Mufti AK Hoosen has given jawaaz for both actions without any ' subject to ' clauses.

The reality on the ground is that this practice of 2 jamaats has become a barrier for the layman, many of whom do not understand the veracity of both arguments.

In the Jamaat Khana i attend this has been more evident this Ramadhaan as many Hanafis just left out Witr all together, whilst the Shafi youngsters seeing the 'other' brothers walking out earlier then the shawaafi, they too abandoned the witr to leave early. Taleem i know is what will cure this problem, but not many Ulama wish to take a decisive stance on this issue for fear of reprisal.

[Talib ul-Ilm]

Maulana Makki al-Hijazi (Khateeb of Haram) advises Hanafis to perform Witr salah individually during his dars sessions after maghrib salah. And where I would pray salah in Masjid Nabawi, I noticed Maulana Ismail Badat al-Madani (khalifa of Hadhrat Shaikh Zakariya r.a) would pray it individually too.

In Ramadhan, Maulana Zubair-ul-Hasan Kandhelwi of Nizamuddin who would sit a few rows ahead of Maulana Ismail Badat sb would also perform witr individually.

[mospike]

Asalamualykum

See attached from Mufti AK Hoosen's book entitled ' Ramadhaan Q&A '

wasalaam

[Adil Faiyaz]

Jazak'Allah Khayr for all the responses and to Mufti Abu Hajira Sahab too. I preferred to pray individually. Though did join it on the first two nights but still did repeat mine afterwards, thereafter prayed individually.

@AbdurRaheem2: Where do you live brother? =) I found it mostly Salafi. A few Hanafi Mosques, such as Pakistani Mosque etc and few Maliki like Za'abeel Mosque. But overall, Salafi. Asked Imam of my Masjid too, he said Salafi and that we follow all school of thoughts whichever holds the strongest backing for his Fatwa.

[AbdurRaheem2]

@AbdurRaheem2: Where do you live brother? =) I found it mostly Salafi. A few Hanafi Mosques, such as Pakistani Mosque etc and few Maliki like Za'abeel Mosque. But overall, Salafi. Asked Imam of my Masjid too, he said Salafi and that we follow all school of thoughts whichever holds the strongest backing for his Fatwa.

lol UK in body UAE in my heart.

There are lots of Salafis there because of the TV etc, but on paper the actual Emiratis are mostly Maliki apart from in Sharjah where they are basically Salafi-Hanbali. The Maliki school is the official madhab of the UAE and department of religious affairs is officially Maliki oriented (but in some ways Salafi influenced) and it appoints and employs the Imams and even decides their sermons, but the Imams are a mixed bunch (including from other Arab countries who are not Maliki).

At the same time a lot of the Emiratis who consider themselves Maliki are very Salafi influenced and even with the awqaf there is a strong Salafi influence in the way they look at fiqh. if you look at the fatawa on here, you can see that although oficially Maliki they often choose what is preferential to them between the four schools http://www.awqaf.ae/?Lang=EN

Likewise you may often find it difficult to tell a ghair muqqalid Salafi from a Salafi-Maliki by how he prays as his prayer is often modified away from the traditional Maliki way according to the same Hadeth that influence the Salafis. Or he may do only 8 rakaat taraweeh even though that is not the view of the Malikiyyah etc.

[afriki_haqq]

:salam:

The Number of rak'ah of witr salah: From the dars of al-Tajrid al-Sarih, abridged Sahih al-Bukhari, by Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadh al-Haq


باب: مَا جَاءَ فِي الْوِتْر
539. عَنِ ابْنِ عُمَرَ رَضِيَ اللهُ عَنْهُمَا: أَنّ رَجُلًا سَأَلَ رَسُولَ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَنْ صَلاَةِ اللّيْلِ, فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم: صَلاَةُ اللّيْلِ مَثْنَى مَثْنَى, فَإِذَا خَشِيَ أَحَدُكُمُ الصّبْحَ صَلّى رَكْعَةً وَاحِدَةً, تُوتِرُ لَهُ ما قَدْ صَلّى

539. Narrated Ibn 'Umar رضى الله عنهما : Once a man asked Allâh's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم about the night prayer. Allâh's Messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم replied, The night prayer is offered as two Rak'ât followed by two Rak'ât and (so on) and if anyone is afraid of the approaching dawn (Fajr prayer) he should pray one Rak'ât and this will be a Witr for all the Rak'ât which he has prayed before.

In this hadeeth the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said that at night you should pray two rakaats followed by two, and when you fear the arrival of dawn you should pray one rakaat. Virtually all the ulema agree that it is better (preferable) to pray salah at night in twos i.e. you should pray two rakaats then say salaam – this is according to all ulema except Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) and Imam Abu Hanifah (رحمة الله عليه).

Imam Abu Hanifah (رحمة الله عليه) says that it is preferable to pray 4 rakaats. Imam Shafi (رحمة الله عليه) and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (رحمة الله عليه) are of the opinion that it is permissible to pray 4 rakaats during the day and night but 2 is preferable. Imam Abu Yusuf (رحمة الله عليه) and Imam Muhammad (رحمة الله عليه) say it is preferable to pray 4 during the day and 2 at night. Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) says one should pray 2 rakaats during the day and night, but it is not permissible to pray 4 rakaats at night. He is alone in saying that you can only pray 2 rakaats at night.

A question which arises is whether it is permissible to pray just 1 rakaat or is 2 the minimum. Imam Abu Hanifah (رحمة الله عليه), Imam Abu Yusuf (رحمة الله عليه), and Imam Muhammad (رحمة الله عليه) say it is not permissible to pray 1 rakaat. Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) says Witr salah is 1 rakaat. Imam Shafi (رحمة الله عليه) and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (رحمة الله عليه) say that for both nafil and Witr salah it is permissible to pray 1 rakaat.

The wording in this hadeeth from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is that you should pray at night by praying 2 rakaats followed by 2 rakaats etc, and when you fear the onset of dawn you should end your night prayers in an odd manner. Maghrib salah comes at the end of the day and makes the prayer of the day so similarly the night prayers should also end in an odd manner. In is not explained in this hadeeth how one should pray 1 rakaat.

So the next question is whether Witr salah consists of 1 rakaat or 3 rakaats? In the Haramain and in Madinah, 1 rakaat is prayed. In the Hijaz, people predominantly follow the fiqh of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal – it should be noted that all of the scholars have their evidences on which they have based their opinion.

According to the Hanafi fiqh, Witr salah should be 3 rakaats. Imam Hakim (رحمة الله عليه) narrates a hadeeth from Aisha (رضى الله عنها) that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) would pray 3 rakaats and would only say salaam at the end. Someone once said to Hasan al Basri (رحمة الله عليه) that Abdullah ibn Umar (رضى الله عنه) would pray 1 rakaat for Witr salah (after praying 2 rakaats). Hasan al Basri replied that his father who was more learned would pray 3 rakaats. Ali (رضى الله عنه), Anas (رضى الله عنه) and other sahabah would pray 3 rakaats for Witr salah.

Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) says in his muwatta that you have to add two rakaats prior to praying the 1 rakaat, so collectively you pray 3 rakaats with salaam in between. Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) says something similar but says it is not obligatory. From this hadeeth, it appears that 1 rakaat can be added without saying salaam after two before dawn. All the different methods are permissible.

Imam Shafi (رحمة الله عليه), Imam Malik (رحمة الله عليه) and other scholars say that if the Imam is praying 3 rakaats, you follow the Imam. The majority of the Hanafi scholars say that if an Imam is praying 3 rakaats with 2 salaams, then it is not permissible to pray behind such an Imam for Witr salah. The reason for this is not bigotry but because salah of 1 rakaat is non-existent according to Hanafi fiqh. It came to the attention of Abdullah ibn Masud (رضى الله عنه) that people were praying 1 rakaat and was reported as saying that 1 rakaat has never been sufficient. However, some ulema (a minority) of the Hanafi School of Fiqh say it is permissible to pray behind an Imam when he prays Witr salah of 1 rakaat. Shaykh Riyadh ul Haq said he is more inclined to act on the opinion of the minority.

http://www.bukhariblog.com/2006/06/number-of-rakaats-of-witr-salah.html

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