What is Salifism?

[Remember_Salat]

:salam:

What is Salafism?

I got a general idea of salafism. And I like what they're about. When you got to a Hanafi and ask him "Why are You praying Like That?" He would say "That's the way Imam Hanafi taught us" Same with others school of thoughts. However when you ask Salafi he would say "This how the our Beloved Prophet Muhammad :saw: prayed" And of course I, as a new muslim, want to pray how the Prophet :saw: and his companions prayed.

However I also noticed that most Salafi scholars say Niqab is obligatory. And of course it is nice to wear the Niqab but it's not obligatory. You do't have to cover what normally appears as it says in Surah 24 verse 31. i.e. the Face and the Hands


Surah 24 Verse 31
...they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears...

So is Salafism a school of thought and part of Sunnism or is it a whole different sect?

Can someone give me an answer on this? :insh:

:jazak:

(P.S. If I offended any body I'm sorry)

P.P.S. I spelled salafism wrong in the title I know

[abdulwahhab]

:ws:

Salafism is a recent movement that appeared in the past few centuries. Some of them reject the following of the madhahib, some of them are excessively critical of everyone, some of them have strange beliefs. So, it is not a monolithic belief.

As for Hanafis, you're speaking to those who are not learned, whereas many people who claim to be Salafis at least know more about what they're following than the lay Hanafi. The Hanafis pray the way we do because we believe that is how Rasoolullah :saw: prayed. The Shafi'is approach is different so they also say that they pray the same way as Rasoolullah :saw:. Even amongst the Salafis, the way they pray can and does differ. The laws are derived based on the foundation, the usool of the madhhab. Islam is easy for us laymen because of the madhahib.

You've stated that the niqab is not obligatory. Where are you getting this idea from? Do you believe that the Salafis or those from the madhahib who hold it to be obligatory have not read the ayah? There is proof from the ahadeeth about the verses of hijab that indicate that the face has to be covered since the wives of Rasoolullah :saw: did so. Some scholars were of the opinion that this shows obligation at all times, others said that the niqab is obligatory in times of fitnah and discord. Some latter day scholars have said that it is not necessary at all. Even the verse you have stated has been taken to refer to the general figure of a woman, which cannot be concealed, so it is "except what normally appears".

But the classical ulama have never shunned the niqab and many hold it to be obligatory. Many Salafis hold it to be obligatory, the classical Hanafis and many Hanafis today hold it to be obligatory, the Shafi'is have held it to be obligatory and many still do, the Hanbalis have held it to be obligatory and many still do, some Maalikis have held it to be obligatory and some still do.

So, as you can see, it is not a Salafi issue.

In the end, we are to stick with the majority of scholars (those who belong to one of the four madhahib and hold the Ash'ari, Maaturidi, and Athari beliefs) because of narrations from the sahaba :anhum: commanding us to do so. The Salafis are an extreme minority in the grand scheme of things. There are many divisions amongst them but what is common between them is that they are not strict in sticking to a madhhab and they have creed that is not of the Ash'ari and Maaturidi schools, and many don't even have true Athari creed, despite their claims.

[Remember_Salat]

Even the verse you have stated has been taken to refer to the general figure of a woman, which cannot be concealed, so it is "except what normally appears".

But didn't Ibn Abbas say that what normally appears is the face and hands?

[abdulwahhab]

But didn't Ibn Abbas say that what normally appears is the face and hands?

:salam:

Brother, please refrain from making statements without referring to ulama, especially as you're a convert. As for ibn Abbas رحمهما الله, his opinion was "that the Muslim women are ordered to cover their head and faces with outer garments except for one eye." This opinion has a saheeh (authentic) chain of transmitters from him and this was also his opinion after the complete revelation of the Qur'an, especially after the verses about jilbaab were revealed in Surah al-Ahzaab. Initially, he held the view that you attributed to him when an earlier verse that you've quoted was revealed. Later, when Surah Ahzaab, verse 59 was revealed, the rulings on hijaab were made more strict. There is a very famous hadeeth about the application of that verse as well from 'Aisha :anha: herself saying that she covered her face.

If you're truly interested, read through this page: http://ibnfarooq.tripod.com/niqaab.htm

[Remember_Salat]

:salam:

Brother, please refrain from making statements without referring to ulama,

But that was a question not a statement
Thanks for the link. So the Niqab is obligatory among women?

['Abdullaah]

:salam:

How many threads do we need on the same topic?
Please use the search function brother.

:jazak:

:salam:

[abdulwahhab]

But that was a question not a statement
Thanks for the link. So the Niqab is obligatory among women?

:salam:

Brother, when you say that Ibn Abbas :rahim: said this or that, it may be misconstrued as a statement. I apologize for the preconception.

As I've stated, there is a difference of opinion as far as whether the niqab is obligatory. The classical scholars have wavered between recommended sunnah (sunnah mu'akkadah) and obligatory (waajib). When we say it is obligatory, we refer to the majority opinion of our madhhab. The people of the other madhahib would do the same. For example, the Hanafis scholars, especially in South East Asia, say that it is wajib. The Shafi'i scholars in Yemen are also of the same opinion. There are some Salafis that are also of the same opinion and other Salafis who are not. The Hanbalis of Saudi Arabia are of the same opinion (that it is obligatory). The Malikis have a wider difference of opinion in their madhhab regarding it.

My recommendation to you would be to adopt a madhhab of what the majority of Muslims in your area follow and then follow that opinion and seek the proofs within that madhhab. The problem with Salafism is that it leaves people confused since there is no specified methodology of approaching an issue, which leads to widely diverging opinions amongst the Salafis to such an extent that there are Salafis excommunicating other Salafis on a regular basis, saying that this or that group of Salafis has left Islam.

[TheSequalizer]

Its like a sport - like the decathalon..

You have to do certain disciplines, the rules are a bit vague, and you can pick and choose what events to partake in.

For example there is the graves hurdles, if you cant make the jump, then you have destroy the headstone. Of course this means the next competitor coming after you can then make the jump easier, afterall its all about the competition, so you have a balancing act to think about.

The next event is the heart reading sprints, where you have to guess whos going to paradise as quickly as possible. Its a dangerous sport because guessing wrong means disqualification from the eternal games, so some competitors decide to pass on this event.

The next event is the agitation javelin. You score more points the further you can throw the spear through the news networks. Obviously innocent bystanders may get harpooned during the throwing, but you can nullify this by shouting as loud as possible bidah during the launch.

Then theirs the superficial shot putt. This is where you have to find as many legitimate things in the world that you can throw the 10Kg putt through. You get more points for emphasising the superficial things and avoiding the deep meaningful things.

After a few more events, the long distance cursing event rounds it off. More points are scored focusing on those who live furthest away from you, and have the least commonalities in language, culture, context and historical significance.

Its a grueling event to end a gruelling series of disciplines but at the end of the day, the greatest satisafaction is in the smugness of the victory, and not really about taking part.

Forgive me if i misunderstood your question.

[a.s.]

Salafi's are sunni. What makes them different is that they reject following a madhab. And this may seem good, but ultimately it leads to confusion and misguidance. Although its not obligatory to follow a madhab, its best to do so. The four imams are closer to the sunnah than the salafi's.

['Abdullaah]

Salafi's are sunni. What makes them different is that they reject following a madhab. And this may seem good, but ultimately it leads to confusion and misguidance. Although its not obligatory to follow a madhab, its best to do so. The four imams are closer to the sunnah than the salafi's.
:salam:

That's the difference in fiqh aspect; then there is the difference in aqeedah aspect.

:salam:

[a.s.]

:salam:

That's the difference in fiqh aspect; then there is the difference in aqeedah aspect.

:salam:

:salam:

What difference is there in aqeedah? Can you list some?

As far I know, they have similar aqeedah to Hanbali madhab right?

The salafi's believe Allah has hands, feet, face etc in a literal sense. Majority of the 'madhabi's' do not believe this except the Hanbali madhab, which believe that Allah does have these things but not in the literal sense, meaning its something we'll never really understand.

Have I got it right?

:ws:

[junfrared]

:salam:

What difference is there in aqeedah? Can you list some?

As far I know, they have similar aqeedah to Hanbali madhab right?

The salafi's believe Allah has hands, feet, face etc in a literal sense. Majority of the 'madhabi's' do not believe this except the Hanbali madhab, which believe that Allah does have these things but not in the literal sense, meaning its something we'll never really understand.

Have I got it right?

:ws:

Please search the forum we have infinite number threads on this topic :-)

[الشيخ المخفي]

So my comments were deleted. Interesting, this is how this forum is run. The only attack i made was on Yazeed (la) and all i received was an accusation that i am rafidhi, i practice taqiyyah. ALLAH knows best.

[bugmenot]

So my comments were deleted. Interesting, this is how this forum is run. The only attack i made was on Yazeed (la) and all i received was an accusation that i am rafidhi, i practice taqiyyah. ALLAH knows best.
Sunnis do not curse nor love Yazid.

[الشيخ المخفي]

Then what is the stance of the ahle sunnah wal jammah when the grandson of the Holy Prophet (saw) and his family are massacred, cold blooded killing? surely the Prophet (saw) nor ALLAH will be pleased with them. Tabarra' on munafiqun and kafir is not allowed? I can show you authorities that tabarra' on the killers of Imam Husayn (as) and the family of the Holy Prophet (saw) is allowed (I think its encouraged) by Sunni scholars. We should dissociate ourselves from wrong-doers

[bugmenot]

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/16137

[Aram]

Imam Husayn (as)

for an apparent sunni...you do have a lot of shia traits

[abdulwahhab]

for an apparent sunni...you do have a lot of shia traits

:salam:

Go through his post history and read his condescending and mocking remarks about the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

[Aram]

:salam:

Go through his post history and read his condescending and mocking remarks about the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah.

:ws:

yep i noticed his mocking of Hadhrat Muawiyah RA in one thread

[الشيخ المخفي]

Salam O alaikum,

I enjoy the sheer beauty of calling him Imam. Imam al-Husayn Syed us-Shuhada (The Prince of Martyrs) (Allahuma Salle Ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad). Great Sunni scholars do that too :). We should all love him.

[الشيخ المخفي]

:ws:

yep i noticed his mocking of Hadhrat Muawiyah RA in one thread

Dear Sister,

You missed Hazrat "Ameer" Muawiyah (RA) tawba! tawba!. need to be more careful, otherwise you might just be mocking.

[SASLAMS]

i thought this was a salafi thing, now its a salafi thing

[الشيخ المخفي]

i thought this was a salafi thing, now its a salafi thing

whats salafi? praising yazeed?

[الشيخ المخفي]

http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/16137

Truly fascinating, thanks brother. good effort

[Aram]

Dear Sister,

You missed Hazrat "Ameer" Muawiyah (RA) tawba! tawba!. need to be more careful, otherwise you might just be mocking.

if i was going to mock someone i wouldn't hide behind taqiyyah..im not that cowardly alhamdulillah

[الشيخ المخفي]

taqiyyah again??? i was only reminding you something. dont be such a paranoid. I am not saying that you are hiding behind anything. why need taqiyyah???. Sister its a sunni forum for sunnis

[abdulwahhab]

taqiyyah again??? i was only reminding you something. dont be such a paranoid. I am not saying that you are hiding behind anything. why need taqiyyah???. Sister its a sunni forum for sunnis

Then why are you here? Your "reminders" are jabs and pokes. Stop embarrassing yourself and be straightforward.

['Abdullaah]

The salafi's believe Allah has hands, feet, face etc in a literal sense. Majority of the 'madhabi's' do not believe this except the Hanbali madhab, which believe that Allah does have these things but not in the literal sense, meaning its something we'll never really understand.


:salam:

The difference between Hanbali/Athari aqeedah and the current day Salafi aqeedah is something which I never quite understood until Mufti Abdur Rahman ibn Yusuf conducted an aqeedah course covering all the various aqeedahs of the past and present.

If possible, I would request that you ask the question to him. Understanding the difference would require quite a bit of background and technical context.
Nevertheless, there is a difference between the Athari and current day Salafi aqeedah, and the general Sunni scholars (beside the salafis) do have good reasons to speak out against the danger of such aqeedah.

Often times, people do not realize that by aligning to Salafism, they fall not only in the isolation from the majority of 'ulama in fiqh point of view, but also fall in isolation in their aqeedah also from the majority of the Ummah in a much more dangerous way.

Wallaahu A'lam.

:salam:

[الشيخ المخفي]

well i have been straightforward for that you have accused me of being rafidhi. I have always been praising Hazrat Ameer Muawiya (RA). My only complaint is yazeed, and a brother in this forum has enlightened me that he (yazeed) is just as great as his father.

When did i ever embarrass myself? i have always been against sectarianism and the salafis have promoted it. Thats why you see so many many bombing, senseless killings. Muslims killing muslims, one hurling accusations that you are kafir and all. Is this good? Sunnah even? i have listened to so many bayans by so-called scholars of the wahabist, truly not enlightening. They only spew the venom of discord and hatred. at last what you get is a shell called islam without its essence.

[abdulwahhab]

well i have been straightforward for that you have accused me of being rafidhi. I have always been praising Hazrat Ameer Muawiya (RA). My only complaint is yazeed, and a brother in this forum has enlightened me that he (yazeed) is just as great as his father.

When did i ever embarrass myself? i have always been against sectarianism and the salafis have promoted it. Thats why you see so many many bombing, senseless killings. Muslims killing muslims, one hurling accusations that you are kafir and all. Is this good? Sunnah even? i have listened to so many bayans by so-called scholars of the wahabist, truly not enlightening. They only spew the venom of discord and hatred. at last what you get is a shell called islam without its essence.

Not a single knowledgeable Muslim would say that Yazeed is as good as Mu'awiya :anhu:. Your taqiyyah is so blatant that you must be a fool to think anyone would fall for it.

[الشيخ المخفي]

now you are saying yazeed is bad? didnt you read all the ahadith in support of yazeed? then what should i say? you tell me.

[الشيخ المخفي]

now who is the rafidhi? me or you? you are mocking hazrat ameer yazeed.

[a.s.]

now you are saying yazeed is bad? didnt you read all the ahadith in support of yazeed? then what should i say? you tell me.

The majority view of the 'Ulema of ahl-ul-Sunnah is to keep silent on Yazeed.

[abdulwahhab]

now who is the rafidhi? me or you? you are mocking hazrat ameer yazeed.

Only a Rafidhi can be so boneheaded.

Mu'awiya :anhu: was one of the great sahabas of Rasoolullah :saw:. That makes him greater than Yazeed and any other caliph or king that came after him. Even if it is categorically proven that Yazeed was an extremely muttaqi, charitable person, he would still be worse than the lowest rank of sahaba. This is Muslim belief. Since you don't even know such basic Muslim belief, your taqiyyah is obvious.

Your religion is such a joke.

[الشيخ المخفي]

enough of your shia bashing & emo talk. you are just parroting about ahle tashayyu'. thanks for your clarification. Yes, yes Hazrat Ameer Muawiya is certainly great. I This is the basic o. Have you read Caliphate & Kingship by Hazrat Maududi? He has criticised Muawiya & yazeed, how do you view him? rafidhi?

[الشيخ المخفي]

The majority view of the 'Ulema of ahl-ul-Sunnah is to keep silent on Yazeed.

I understand.

[abdulwahhab]

enough of your shia bashing & emo talk. you are just parroting about ahle tashayyu'. thanks for your clarification. Yes, yes Hazrat Ameer Muawiya is certainly great. I This is the basic o. Have you read Caliphate & Kingship by Hazrat Maududi? He has criticised Muawiya & yazeed, how do you view him? rafidhi?

He was mistaken and the ulama criticized him for it. Unlike a Rafidhi, he did not hide his beliefs. Unlike a Rafidhi, his criticism wasn't stemmed in hatred. Unlike a Rafidhi, his intentions were good.

Where have I done any "shia bashing"? The Rafidhi are a type of Shi'a who lie about their religion (like you) and make snide remarks about the companions :anhu: (also like you).

[Aram]

Where have I done any "shia bashing"? The Rafidhi are a type of Shi'a who lie about their religion (like you) and make snide remarks about the companions :anhu: (also like you).

religion of cowards...those upon the haq don't need to do taqiyah even if it means their heads are hacked off, they follow the way of Hussain RA

[bugmenot]

My only complaint is yazeed, and a brother in this forum has enlightened me that he (yazeed) is just as great as his father.
If you were referring to my link all it says is there are conflicting reports and best is to remain silent over Yazid's case. Yazid is definitely not made his father's equal; he's not even a sahabi.
Nobody here likes the wretched killers of Sayyiduna Husain :anhu:. But we have to be balanced in critics.

Wassalam.

[الشيخ المخفي]

Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) practiced taqiyyah, my dear sister. I told you guys not worth parroting what others say about ahle tashayyu'

Sufiyan bin Waki narrated: ‘Umar bin Hammad bin Abu Hanifa came to us and said: ‘I heard from my father that Ibn Abi Liala asked some question to my father as to whether the Quran is created. He replied: ‘Yes it is’. Ibn Abi Laila said: ‘Perform Tauba otherwise I will take measures against you’. Imam Abu Hanifa complied and said: ‘The Quran is Allah’s statement’. Ibn Abi Laila made Imam Abu Hanifa march amongst the public and made him profess that he was repentant over his belief that the Quran was created. Thus my father (Hammad) asked Imam Abu Hanifa: ‘Why did you comply with him?’ Imam Abu Hanifa replied: ‘My son, I feared that he might adopt measures against me, I hence replied under Taqiyyah’. (tarekh e baghdad).

Further during the early days of Islam, it was encouraged to practice taqiyyah. so stop playing child games with me. I dont need to do taqiyyah with you people.

[الشيخ المخفي]

"Nobody here likes the wretched killers of Sayyiduna Husain (as)"
ALLAHuma Salle' ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!.

This is sufficient for me.

[AbuFatimah]

Not a single knowledgeable Muslim would say that Yazeed is as good as Mu'awiya :anhu:. Your taqiyyah is so blatant that you must be a fool to think anyone would fall for it.

isnt there a narration that umar bin abdal azeez RH isnt worth the nostrils in teh hair of muawiyyah RAA?

To the deceptive shia pretending to be sunni, anyone here can see your obviously shia so cut the taqqiyyah.

Our aqeedah is very clear on these issues already so what is your point?

[AbuFatimah]

:salam:

What is Salafism?

I got a general idea of salafism. And I like what they're about. When you got to a Hanafi and ask him "Why are You praying Like That?" He would say "That's the way Imam Hanafi taught us" Same with others school of thoughts. However when you ask Salafi he would say "This how the our Beloved Prophet Muhammad :saw: prayed" And of course I, as a new muslim, want to pray how the Prophet :saw: and his companions prayed.

However I also noticed that most Salafi scholars say Niqab is obligatory. And of course it is nice to wear the Niqab but it's not obligatory. You do't have to cover what normally appears as it says in Surah 24 verse 31. i.e. the Face and the Hands



So is Salafism a school of thought and part of Sunnism or is it a whole different sect?

Can someone give me an answer on this? :insh:

:jazak:

(P.S. If I offended any body I'm sorry)

P.P.S. I spelled salafism wrong in the title I know

the niqab is a didfference of opinion, one views it as good, the other obligatory. The salafi scholars are split on this issue.

Salafis are part of ahlas sunnah (sunni) and all of the fiqh opinions they follow can be found in the early generations such as thefour imams and others.

We shoudl respect the differences of opinion and whether you choose to follow a madhab or the salafi scholars is entirely your choice and its more important that you focus on actually praying you 5 prayers, practsing your deen and getting closer to Allah. try tnot to wreck your imaan through debate and bouncing back and forth between groups or delving into these issues, follow what your comfortable with and then focus on becoming a strong part of the ummah inshAllah and being active in teh muslim community inshAllah. Attend talks, do good, show the best behaviour to family, get married, learn, do whatever you wish to do in life and respect all your sunni brothers regardless of minor differences and inshAlah you shall live a fruitful life. May Allah make your path into Islam and easy one. Ameen

p.s. teh difference between salafis and non salafi sunnis isnt todo with madhabs or fiqh. this is a misconception. The difference is in aqeedah. There are three schooas of aqeedah in sunni islam. Ashari, athari and maturidi. Salafis take the apparent meaning of verses and hadeeth and ashari and maturidi apply ilm ul kalaam (phiosophy) on them. Its not really something taht will benefit you greatly to be honest, id advise to leave it and focus on being a good and active muslim inshallah. try to attend as much activites and gatehrings as you can inshAllah

[الشيخ المخفي]

[QUOTE=AbuFatimah;792426]isnt there a narration that umar bin abdal azeez RH isnt worth the nostrils in teh hair of muawiyyah RAA?

Have some decency, dont use this narration. Hazrat Umar Abdul Aziz (RA) is a noble and a pious muslim, he is the best Ummayad ruler. May ALLAH be pleased with him.

[الشيخ المخفي]

when its so obvious, why i resort to taqiyya? seriously dont get ur sense.

[ahamed_sharif]

when its so obvious, why i resort to taqiyya? seriously dont get ur sense.

Warning!!!!

The members here are well experienced. Reading a few posts from new members, members in SF know it who is hanafi, sunni or a Shia xyz@#$@# in taqiyyah.

[AbuFatimah]

[QUOTE=AbuFatimah;792426]isnt there a narration that umar bin abdal azeez RH isnt worth the nostrils in teh hair of muawiyyah RAA?

Have some decency, dont use this narration. Hazrat Umar Abdul Aziz (RA) is a noble and a pious muslim, he is the best Ummayad ruler. May ALLAH be pleased with him.

dont use a narration because it doesnt suit you? the narration exists whether you like it or not.

You dont seem to get that putting someone in their proper place doesnt mean disrespect. If a sahaba is better in status than non sahaba's than doesnt mean you've disrespected them

[SASLAMS]

"Nobody here likes the wretched killers of Sayyiduna Husain (as)"
ALLAHuma Salle' ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!.

This is sufficient for me.

could you add to your salawaat wa ala ashaabi Muhammadi ajmaeen

[الشيخ المخفي]

could you add to your salawaat wa ala ashaabi Muhammadi ajmaeen

Do you do that in your salat?

[الشيخ المخفي]

[QUOTE=الشيخ المخفي;792437]

dont use a narration because it doesnt suit you? the narration exists whether you like it or not.

You dont seem to get that putting someone in their proper place doesnt mean disrespect. If a sahaba is better in status than non sahaba's than doesnt mean you've disrespected them

It is disrespectful of a great muslim like hazrat Umar Abd Aziz (RA) because it stated there nostril, a very bad bad way to compare, thats no way to measure who is greater or not. Its for ALLAH to decide.

[الشيخ المخفي]

Lets go by your understanding, among the Sahaba kiram, there are Muhajirun, Ansar & those who converted after fath e makka mukaramma. Are all of them equal in status?

[Aram]

[QUOTE=AbuFatimah;792473]

It is disrespectful of a great muslim like hazrat Umar Abd Aziz (RA), thats no way to measure who is greater or not. Its for ALLAH to decide.

i bet if he had said the same statement but replaced hadhrat Muawiyah RA's name with one of your imams you wouldn't have such an issue with it :rolleyes:

[الشيخ المخفي]

[QUOTE=الشيخ المخفي;792483]

i bet if he had said the same statement but replaced hadhrat Muawiyah RA's name with one of your imams you wouldn't have such an issue with it :rolleyes:

ALLAH (SWT) has given Ahle Bayt Mutahireen a special status, sunni or shia we all believe in it. Have you read about Hazrat Umar Abdul Aziz (RA)?

[الشيخ المخفي]

For the benefit of all members, i came across these narration particularly from those wahabist monsters:

Imam al-Bukhari has stated: "Imam Abu Hanifa was a Murji'i"
[Al-Ta'rikh al-Kabir, under the 'Biography of Numan ibn Thabit']


Imam al-Bukhari also writes:
"When Sufyan ath-Thawri [a great scholar of Islam] heard news about the death of Imam Abu Hanifa, he said: 'Praise beto Allah that such a man had died as he was gradually destroying Islam. There could not be a worse person born in Islam' "
[Ta'rikh Saghir, Biography of Imam Abu Hanifa]


Imam al-Bukhari also writes:
"On two occasions Imam Abu Hanifa was ordered to repent from making blasphemous statements"
[al-Bukhari, Kitab ad-Daufa Walmat Rukin; Ibn 'Abdi'l-Barr, Al-Intiqa]


Imam al-Bukhari informs us that he had taken these statements from his tutor Na'im ibn Hamad [Ta'rikh as-Saghir]

We should be focusing on accusations like this against our Imam e azam (RA)

[(Huzaifah)]

@ المخفي الخبيث:

You dare to attribute your Raafidhi Kufr to my Imaam, Imaam-ul-A'immah Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)?!
It is valueless to debate with you, because in my opinion a Shi`a is a worse Kaafir than a Jew or a Christian, and more filthy than dogs and pigs.

But I will say this to you: You can never imagine in your life how lucky you are that I am typing to you here over an Internet. Wallahi-l-`Azheem, had you attributed that Kufr to the Imaam in my presence, I would have struck your neck with the sword.

---

Secondly, you quote some book called "tarekh e baghdad". Based on the spelling it must be an Urdu book. If you are referring to the Kitaab "Taareekh Baghdaad", of Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn `Aliyy-il-Khateeb il-Baghdaadiyy; I have the original Kitaab in Arabic. And Alhamdulillah, being a student in the fourth year of an `Aalim course, I can read the original Arabic without having to resort to an Urdu or English translation. This "narration" of yours does not appear in it. But just for argument's sake, let us assume this "narration" is in the Kitaab. Still it will not be accepted! For the simple reason that al-Khateeb al-Badhdaadiyy was known to have a hatred for the Imaam. Amongst the accusations that he brings against the Imaam (Radiyallahu `Anhu) is the following:

1.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) was from the Murji`ah.

2.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) confirmed that Riba is Halaal.

3.) In Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)'s Halqahs, there was no Durood sent upon Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam).

3.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) and his students were like Christians.

4.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)'s followers said that his knowledge was greater than that of Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam).

5.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) used to say that had Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) been present at his time he (Rasoolullah Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) would have taken his opinion.

---

These are all blatant lies and fabrications against al-Imaam al-A`zham (Radiyallahu `Anhu). {لا يؤمن به الا كل كاذب فاجر}

---

And the quote mentioned by some of the brothers is true and understood by every person of `Aql.

"(Hazrat) `Abdullah ibn al-Mubaarak (Rahimahullah) was asked: Who is greater, Sayyidinaa Mu`aawiyah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) or (Hazrat) `Umar bin `Abdul `Azeez (Rahimahullah)? He said: "The dirt under the shoe of the horse of (Sayyidinaa) Mu`aawiyah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) is many times greater than `Umar bin `Abdul `Azeez!"

As for the son of Ameer-il-Mu'mineen ilaa Yowm-il-Qiyaamah, Sayyidinaa Mu`aawiyah ibn Abee Sufyaan (Radiyallahu `Anhu wa A`laa Darajatahu fi-l-Jannah), Yazeed; the most correct and most safe view is that held by the Akabireen of Deoband, that because of the tremendous amount of Ikhtilaaf concerning him we leave his case to Allah Rabbul `Izzah, and we neither praise him nor curse him. This is the safest view in this matter.

(May Allah grant people the understanding.)

[الشيخ المخفي]

@ المخفي الخبيث:

You dare to attribute your Raafidhi Kufr to my Imaam, Imaam-ul-A'immah Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)?!
It is valueless to debate with you, because in my opinion a Shi`a is a worse Kaafir than a Jew or a Christian, and more filthy than dogs and pigs.

But I will say this to you: You can never imagine in your life how lucky you are that I am typing to you here over an Internet. Wallahi-l-`Azheem, had you attributed that Kufr to the Imaam in my presence, I would have struck your neck with the sword.

---

Secondly, you quote some book called "tarekh e baghdad". Based on the spelling it must be an Urdu book. If you are referring to the Kitaab "Taareekh Baghdaad", of Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn `Aliyy-il-Khateeb il-Baghdaadiyy; I have the original Kitaab in Arabic. And Alhamdulillah, being a student in the fourth year of an `Aalim course, I can read the original Arabic without having to resort to an Urdu or English translation. This "narration" of yours does not appear in it. But just for argument's sake, let us assume this "narration" is in the Kitaab. Still it will not be accepted! For the simple reason that al-Khateeb al-Badhdaadiyy was known to have a hatred for the Imaam. Amongst the accusations that he brings against the Imaam (Radiyallahu `Anhu) is the following:

1.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) was from the Murji`ah.

2.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) confirmed that Riba is Halaal.

3.) In Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)'s Halqahs, there was no Durood sent upon Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam).

3.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) and his students were like Christians.

4.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu)'s followers said that his knowledge was greater than that of Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam).

5.) Imam Abu Haneefah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) used to say that had Rasulullah (Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) been present at his time he (Rasoolullah Sallallahu `Alayhi wa Sallam) would have taken his opinion.

---

These are all blatant lies and fabrications against al-Imaam al-A`zham (Radiyallahu `Anhu). {لا يؤمن به الا كل كاذب فاجر}

---

And the quote mentioned by some of the brothers is true and understood by every person of `Aql.

"(Hazrat) `Abdullah ibn al-Mubaarak (Rahimahullah) was asked: Who is greater, Sayyidinaa Mu`aawiyah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) or (Hazrat) `Umar bin `Abdul `Azeez (Rahimahullah)? He said: "The dirt under the shoe of the horse of (Sayyidinaa) Mu`aawiyah (Radiyallahu `Anhu) is many times greater than `Umar bin `Abdul `Azeez!"

As for the son of Ameer-il-Mu'mineen ilaa Yowm-il-Qiyaamah, Sayyidinaa Mu`aawiyah ibn Abee Sufyaan (Radiyallahu `Anhu wa A`laa Darajatahu fi-l-Jannah), Yazeed; the most correct and most safe view is that held by the Akabireen of Deoband, that because of the tremendous amount of Ikhtilaaf concerning him we leave his case to Allah Rabbul `Izzah, and we neither praise him nor curse him. This is the safest view in this matter.

(May Allah grant people the understanding.)

Firstly you are khabis for spewing hatred, nobody is accusing Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) of kufr. The narration i quoted are used by the salafis. You say rafidhis are worse kafir then christian and jews, that shows ur love for them, how about salafis/wahabis, why refrain from cursing them?

[Aram]

Firstly you are khabis for spewing hatred, nobody is accusing Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) of kufr. The narration i quoted are used by the salafis. You say rafidhis are worse kafir then christian and jews, that shows ur love for them, how about salafis/wahabis, why refrain from cursing them?

can't even begin to compare rafidhis with salafis...since salafis despite their errors are still our Muslim brothers/sisters

[Shahed-560]

Firstly you are khabis for spewing hatred, nobody is accusing Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) of kufr. The narration i quoted are used by the salafis. You say rafidhis are worse kafir then christian and jews, that shows ur love for them, how about salafis/wahabis, why refrain from cursing them?

السلام عليكم

I notice in forums that for some reasons our brothers/sisters take upon themselves to refute / reply Rafidis (whether their Taqiya are apparent in their tacit expression or declared) which in turn give them a chance to degrade our brothers/sisters in counter response. We should not allow ourselves to be degraded by the enemy of Allah (SWT), his Rasool (SWA) and the Sahabas (RA) and the pious predecessors. People who show enmity to the Sahabas (RA), even to single one of them, are indeed despicable and can't be considered worth replying. My suggestion is, whenever there is a question or any point raised from any Taquiyya infested retard, it should be allowed to die it's own course.

[abdulwahhab]

:salam:

It's funny how the guy used a narration from Tareekh Baghdad to show that Imam Abu Haneefa :rahim: used taqiyyah when we know that there are many fabrications in that book. In fact, the Ahle Hadees of Pakistan use that book to blast Imam Abu Haneefa :rahim:!

You have to show that the narration you're quoting is accurate (it isn't). Actually, never mind, since the Shi'a ayatollaats cannot even authenticate their "hadeeth" properly, what hope do you have?

[الشيخ المخفي]

can't even begin to compare rafidhis with salafis...since salafis despite their errors are still our Muslim brothers/sisters

indeed they are your brothers and you are their sister despite the fact they quote the same source in the most despicable manner. Thank you very much for making this honest admission, truly applaudable. This has proven your prejudicial mindset. I desire to go no further on this matter (who is better/worse), you are just one of them but under the guise of "taqiyya".

My last point

Their ultimate aim is reflected through this thesis : http://abdurrahman.org/knowledge/Abbas-Abu-Yahya/17-Part-1-The-Ruling-of-the-Dome-Built-upon-the-Grave-of-the-Messenger-of-Allaah_-_www.AbdurRahman.org.pdf.

I was once told that the great deoband scholar Hazrat Shabbir Usmani (ra) has successfully debated with salafist scholars in the presence of the saudie king to prevent the demolition of Gumbad e khizra (green dome) and the Rauza Shareef (ALLAHuma Salle alla Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad). My due respect and salams to this righteous scholar. May ALLAH be pleased with him.

[الشيخ المخفي]

:salam:

It's funny how the guy used a narration from Tareekh Baghdad to show that Imam Abu Haneefa :rahim: used taqiyyah when we know that there are many fabrications in that book. In fact, the Ahle Hadees of Pakistan use that book to blast Imam Abu Haneefa :rahim:!

You have to show that the narration you're quoting is accurate (it isn't). Actually, never mind, since the Shi'a ayatollaats cannot even authenticate their "hadeeth" properly, what hope do you have?

Mr. Wahab, with due respect i have no intention of putting Imam e Azam under a bad light. Im not interested about the authenticity of this book. Imam e Azam is a lover of the ahle bayt mutahireen and has supported Imam Zayd shaheed. I have all the respect in the world for him. This book has been extensively quoted by the wahabist to prove the followers of the biggest sunni school as wrong, ultimately an attack on ahle sunnah as a whole but the irony is that the wahabist claim to belong to the same sect they wish to discredit.

[abdulwahhab]

Mr. Wahab, with due respect i have no intention of putting Imam e Azam under a bad light. Im not interested about the authenticity of this book. Imam e Azam is a lover of the ahle bayt mutahireen and has supported Imam Zayd shaheed. I have all the respect in the world for him. This book has been extensively quoted by the wahabist to prove the followers of the biggest sunni school as wrong, ultimately an attack on ahle sunnah as a whole but the irony is that the wahabist claim to belong to the same sect they wish to discredit.

You used a false account from that book to justify taqiyyah when taqiyyah is not allowed except when someone's life is in real danger. The Wahhabis in Pakistan hate the Ahlus Sunnah and they don't care about authenticity as far as attacking the Ahlus Sunnah is concerned so you using the book that they extensively source shows your hatred for the Ahlus Sunnah as well.

[الشيخ المخفي]

You used a false account from that book to justify taqiyyah when taqiyyah is not allowed except when someone's life is in real danger. The Wahhabis in Pakistan hate the Ahlus Sunnah and they don't care about authenticity as far as attacking the Ahlus Sunnah is concerned so you using the book that they extensively source shows your hatred for the Ahlus Sunnah as well.

my friend you keep evading and attacking on the wrong targets. Tashayyu' as a movement has been around for more 1000 years, neither ahle sunnah nor ahle tashayyu' were able to completely vanquish the other. It shall remain so until the appearance of Imam Mahdi (as). We will let him decide on this issue. Wahabism is a dangerous dagger on the very heart of ahle sunnah, the way it is growing and poisoning people's minds is certainly mind boggling, a cause for concern. I hope you will agree with me on that. They are hijacking ahle sunnah! if you truly love ahle sunnah you will realise this! shias are merely 10% how can they harm 90%? but wahabist have big big ambitions. This all i can say on this thread. wasalam!

[Aram]

why would a shia care about ahlus sunnah and what goes on between them...i can only think of divide and conquer being their interest

some wahabbis may curse imam Abu Hanifah RA, but the shias curse our sahaba RA and our mothers RA....the sahabah RA are higher in status than the mujtahideen imams therefore shias are our bigger enemies :rolleyes:

your tactics are not about to work here...jog on

[الشيخ المخفي]

why would a shia care about ahlus sunnah and what goes on between them...i can only think of divide and conquer being their interest

some wahabbis may curse imam Abu Hanifah RA, but the shias curse our sahaba RA and our mothers RA....the sahabah RA are higher in status than the mujtahideen imams therefore shias are our bigger enemies :rolleyes:

your tactics are not about to work here...jog on

Interesting thought. well done, stay with those that curse and insult imam abu hanifa (ra) to the extent of kufr. I have no business with the sister of the wahabist. I dont think any right thinking sunni will say what you said. Imam Abu Hanifa gave u fiqh, and yet you tolerate him being ridiculed. Ajeeb Bht ajeeb. Teri soch or fikr ko salam! You are a victim of mass deception!

[Aram]

Interesting thought. well done, stay with those that curse and insult imam abu hanifa (ra) to the extent of kufr. I have no business with the sister of the wahabist. I dont think any right thinking sunni will say what you said. Imam Abu Hanifa gave u fiqh, and yet you tolerate him being ridiculed. Ajeeb Bht ajeeb. Teri soch or fikr ko salam! You are a victim of mass deception!

wahabbis who curse imam Abu Hanifah RA are misguided but shias who curse the sahabah RA are kaafir so how can you tell us who are enemies are?
i know what your trying to do here with your taqiyyah..turn our attention away from the filthy shias so that we focus our hatred to the wahabbis

im sorry but you have failed miserably

[abdulwahhab]

Most Wahhabis do not curse nor do they condone cursing Imam Abu Hanifah :rahim:. In fact, the minority of Ahle Hadees that do are ridiculed and rejected by the Wahhabis themselves. You'll be hard-pressed to find any Saudi Wahhabi scholar cursing Imam Abu Hanifa :rahim: nor will you find him allowing such things. In fact, you'll find them cursing those that curse the imam!

On the other hand, you Shi'a love to curse the Sahaba :anhum: and the pure wives رضي الله عنهن and not only do you allow it, you recommend it. Your kufr as a group is clear. The kufr of the Wahhabis isn't since they don't have a united belief on cursing Imam Abu Hanifa :rahim: and a minority are the ones that curse.

It is like me saying that the Shi'a believe 'Ali :anhu: to be god, when a small number (the 'Alawis) do believe this and majority do not.

[الشيخ المخفي]

On the other hand, you Shi'a love to curse the Sahaba :anhum: and the pure wives رضي الله عنهن and not only do you allow it, you recommend it. Your kufr as a group is clear. The kufr of the Wahhabis isn't since they don't have a united belief on cursing Imam Abu Hanifa :rahim: and a minority are the ones that curse.

Yet again another common nasibi accusation, well i dont think i like to repeat this : Ahle Tashayyu' do not curse ALL the Sahaba Kiram & Azwaj e Rasul Kareem (ALLAHuma sale ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!). Ahle Tashayyu' dissociate from those who hate or abuse the Ahle Bayt Mutahireen (as), cursing is discouraged. Some of the Sahaba Kiram revered & honored by ahle Tashayyu' are Hazrat Salman (ra), Hazrat Miqdad (ra) & Hazrat Ammar (ra) Almost all the wives of the Prophet (saw) are revered in particular Hazrat Khadija (ra), Hazrat Umme Salama (ra) & Hazrat Mariam (ra).

The other thing you all should know is that, if you do not tolerate a Sahabi (ra) being cursed then how could you tolerate Moula Ali (as) to be cursed? fought against? do you support anyone declaring war against a sahabi?

[SASLAMS]

Do you do that in your salat?

if you dont in salah why cant you out of salah, because you hate the best friend of Rasulullah SAWS. & i dont know to hate a mans best friend or to make an enemy of him is to hate him too.

[Aram]

On the other hand, you Shi'a love to curse the Sahaba :anhum: and the pure wives رضي الله عنهن and not only do you allow it, you recommend it. Your kufr as a group is clear. The kufr of the Wahhabis isn't since they don't have a united belief on cursing Imam Abu Hanifa :rahim: and a minority are the ones that curse.

Yet again another common nasibi accusation, well i dont think i like to repeat this : Ahle Tashayyu' do not curse ALL the Sahaba Kiram & Azwaj e Rasul Kareem (ALLAHuma sale ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!). Ahle Tashayyu' dissociate from those who hate or abuse the Ahle Bayt Mutahireen (as), cursing is discouraged. Some of the Sahaba Kiram revered & honored by ahle Tashayyu' are Hazrat Salman (ra), Hazrat Miqdad (ra) & Hazrat Ammar (ra) Almost all the wives of the Prophet (saw) are revered in particular Hazrat Khadija (ra), Hazrat Umme Salama (ra) & Hazrat Mariam (ra).

The other thing you all should know is that, if you do not tolerate a Sahabi (ra) being cursed then how could you tolerate Moula Ali (as) to be cursed? fought against? do you support anyone declaring war against a sahabi?

Alhamdlillah atleast you have droppd the taqiyyah act

as for Hadhrat Ali karamAllahu wajhahu RA, there is nobody that insults him more than the shias themselves by making out he was some kind of coward as they are....na'audhubillah and he sat by and watched others abuse his family and did nothing....that is not Our Ali RA, you may have such a low opinion of him but we know he would have taken off the heads of those who hurt his family

[الشيخ المخفي]

My Response-
Another common accusation. I know where you are leading me to. Those are the areas which are subject to serious dispute, shia scholars such Sheikh Saduq, Sheikh Mufid, Shariff Radhi & Murtadha have already dealt with it. Its good that you have a high opinion of him. Moula Ali (as) has already given his answer in khutba Shiqshiqiyya in Najhul Balaghah. I quote below:

"I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly...I found that endurance thereon was wiser.."


well yet again the debate will go on to whether you believe this is authentic or not. You need not go any further. We will rely on a source that all muslims agree upon. I want you to read and understand the following Quranic verses which i have quoted from the Holy Quran regarding Prophet Moses (as) and Prophet Aaron (as), this is when Prophet Moses (as) appointed Prophet Aaron (as) as his vazir until he returns from Miqat after receiving the revelation. Prophet Aaron (as) is supposed to guide Bani Israil in the absence of Prophet Moses and when Bani Israil were worshipping the Golden Calf this was the following response from Prophet Aaron (as):


(Moses said: "O' Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is)
my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...," (Allah) said: "We granted your
requests, O' Moses." (Quran 20:29-36)


"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier." (Quran 25:35)


"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my
comunity." (Quran 7:142)

1) Before this, Aaron had already said to them:

'O my people! you are being tested in this, for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious so follow me and obey my order.'"


2) Upon the return of Prophet Moses (as) , he asked Prophet Aaron (as)


(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going
wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my word!'" (Quran 20:92-94)

How do you interpret this action? why did Hazrat Harun (as) did not warn the people? you get your answer.

[الشيخ المخفي]

if you dont in salah why cant you out of salah, because you hate the best friend of Rasulullah SAWS. & i dont know to hate a mans best friend or to make an enemy of him is to hate him too.

Naazubillah! nobody is hating the sahaba kiram of the Holy Messenger (ALLAHuma sale ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!). If it is important than why it is not mentioned in solat? if it is a matter of deen?. ( i deleted the below to avoid unnecessary debate)

[SASLAMS]

Naazubillah! nobody is hating the sahaba kiram of the Holy Messenger (ALLAHuma sale ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!). If it is important than why it is not mentioned in solat? if it is a matter of deen?. ( i deleted the below to avoid unnecessary debate)

so then can you state that you love Sayidina Abu Bakr RA & his daughter RAH

[Aram]

My Response-
Another common accusation. I know where you are leading me to. Those are the areas which are subject to serious dispute, shia scholars such Sheikh Saduq, Sheikh Mufid, Shariff Radhi & Murtadha have already dealt with it. Its good that you have a high opinion of him. Moula Ali (as) has already given his answer in khutba Shiqshiqiyya in Najhul Balaghah. I quote below:

"I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly...I found that endurance thereon was wiser.."


well yet again the debate will go on to whether you believe this is authentic or not. You need not go any further. We will rely on a source that all muslims agree upon. I want you to read and understand the following Quranic verses which i have quoted from the Holy Quran regarding Prophet Moses (as) and Prophet Aaron (as), this is when Prophet Moses (as) appointed Prophet Aaron (as) as his vazir until he returns from Miqat after receiving the revelation. Prophet Aaron (as) is supposed to guide Bani Israil in the absence of Prophet Moses and when Bani Israil were worshipping the Golden Calf this was the following response from Prophet Aaron (as):


(Moses said: "O' Allah) assign me a vizier from my family, (that is)
my brother Aaron (Haroon) ...," (Allah) said: "We granted your
requests, O' Moses." (Quran 20:29-36)


"Surely We gave the book to Moses and assigned his brother Aaron as his vizier." (Quran 25:35)


"... And Moses said unto his brother Aaron: Take my place in my
comunity." (Quran 7:142)

1) Before this, Aaron had already said to them:

'O my people! you are being tested in this, for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious so follow me and obey my order.'"


2) Upon the return of Prophet Moses (as) , he asked Prophet Aaron (as)


(Moses) said: "O' Aaron! what kept you back when you saw them going
wrong?"... (Aaron said:) "...Truly I feared you would say 'You caused a division among the Children of Israel and you did not respect my word!'" (Quran 20:92-94)

How do you interpret this action? why did Hazrat Harun (as) did not warn the people? you get your answer.

that doesn't prove anything...Haroon AS thought Musa AS would say he caused division, but later on in that surah we see that it was not the case, Musa AS came and destroyed the calf, the most important thing was protecting the message...you suggest due to Ali RA's endurance 80% + of the ummah went astray :rolleyes:

on one hand the father (Ali RA) supposedly endured all for the sake of unity...on the other hand the son (Hussain RA) did not bow and he did not sell out and sacrificed his life and the life of his family for the truth

doesn't make much sense does it :rolleyes:

[AimeSi]

:salam:

What is the purpose of that thread ?
It's like it's going nowhere...

[Muhammad_786]

:salam:

What is the purpose of that thread ?
It's like it's going nowhere...

Wslm,

Once a thread is hijacked by Shia it usually doesn't go anywhere...;)

[Muhammad_786]

so then can you state that you love Sayidina Abu Bakr RA & his daughter RAH

He won't state the love and conveniently not respond and post some other stuff (or run away from the thread.)

[الشيخ المخفي]

that doesn't prove anything...Haroon AS thought Musa AS would say he caused division, but later on in that surah we see that it was not the case, Musa AS came and destroyed the calf, the most important thing was protecting the message...you suggest due to Ali RA's endurance 80% + of the ummah went astray :rolleyes:

on one hand the father (Ali RA) supposedly endured all for the sake of unity...on the other hand the son (Hussain RA) did not bow and he did not sell out and sacrificed his life and the life of his family for the truth

doesn't make much sense does it :rolleyes:

The Quranic verses which i have cited explains pretty much the stand of Moula Ali (as). Both ways either abstaining from conflict or unsheathing the sword for justice both are right. Imam Hasan (as) did not fight for Imamat, does that imply he is not the Imam? this is the view of ahle tashayyu'

Among the Anbiya mursaleen (as), Hazrat Isa ibn Maryam (as) did not fight to establish his prophethood, does that imply he is not the Prophet of Allah (swt)

During the early days of Islam in Makka Shareef, the Habib of Allah (saw) did not fight against the Mushrikeen does that imply that he is OK with them? or his subsequent jihad renders his effort in Makka worthless? Before putting or twisting any logic please read history. All other Aima (as) after Imam Husayn (as) did not unsheath their swords so are they not Imams?

[الشيخ المخفي]

so then can you state that you love Sayidina Abu Bakr RA & his daughter RAH

If Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them then i would love them also.

[الشيخ المخفي]

He won't state the love and conveniently not respond and post some other stuff (or run away from the thread.)

I have replied!

[SASLAMS]

If Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them then i would love them also.

so you will only love them if Sayidina Ali RA & Zahra RA loved them. so to bad that Rasulullah SAWS loved. so your love for the two of them is greater than your love for Rasulullah SAWS. so maybe i think you should change your madhab on SF from hanafi to Shia'.
did sayidina Ali RA respect the khilafah of Sayidina Abu Bakr RA. if not why didnt he contest it.

[الشيخ المخفي]

so you will only love them if Sayidina Ali RA & Zahra RA loved them. so to bad that Rasulullah SAWS loved. so your love for the two of them is greater than your love for Rasulullah SAWS. so maybe i think you should change your madhab on SF from hanafi to Shia'.
did sayidina Ali RA respect the khilafah of Sayidina Abu Bakr RA. if not why didnt he contest it.

Three points you raised:

1) The Holy Prophet (saw) loved them.

2) so your love for the two of them is greater than your love for Rasulullah SAWS???

3) did sayidina Ali RA respect the khilafah of Sayidina Abu Bakr RA. if not why didnt he contest it?

the first question is subjective, after or before his demise (saw)?

the second question is outrageous! is like me saying you love Hazrat Abu Bakr more than the Holy Prophet (saw)? would you agree? why do we love the Ahle Bayt (as) because they are "Ale Muhammad" (ALLAHuma Sale ala Muhammad wa ale Muhammad!). simple logic will tell you this! Our Master (saw) loved Moula Ali (as) more than anyone!

read reference below:

Imam Hakim in Mustadrak, Volume 4 page 261 Tradition 4744:

Jami bin Umair narrates: 'I accompanied my aunt and approached Ayesha [ra] and asked her: 'Who was the dearest among the people to Rasulullah?' She replied 'Fatima'. I then asked 'And amongst men? She replied 'Her husband'

Imam Nasai records in Khasais Imam Ali, page 89:

Amro bin Ali narrated from Abdulaziz bin al-Khatab from Muhammad bin Ismail bin Raja al-Zubaidi from Abi Ishaq al-Shaybani from Jami bin Umair who narrated: 'I along with my father went to Ayesha and asked her (behind the veil) about Ali. She replied: 'You are asking me about a man whom I know NONE among the men that the Holy Prophet loved most except him and NONE among the women except his wife'.

Same episode has also been narrated in this manner in Majma al Zawaid, Volume 9 page 136 Tradition 15194:

Al-Numan bin Bashir said: ‘Abu Bakr asked for permission to enter on the prophet (s), whereupon he heard Ayesha's loudly raised voice, saying (to the prophet): ‘I knew that Ali and Fatima are more dearer to you than me and my father’. She said that twice or thrice – Abu Bakr then asked for permission and entered he approached her and said: 'O daughter, you should not raise your voice before Allah's messenger (s)'.


Your third question has already been answered, read the comment to the sister of the wahabis below

[samy.3660]

If Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them then i would love them also.
Lolzzz stop playing buddy, come to the point.

[الشيخ المخفي]

Lolzzz stop playing buddy, come to the point.

If you can prove both Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them, i would commit too. Its that simple buddy!

[afriki_haqq]

If you can prove both Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them, i would commit too. Its that simple buddy!

:salam:

Do you agree with the following narration?

طلبة الرافضة من زيد ابن علي التبرؤ من أبو بكر و عمر فقال: إنهما وزيرا جدي, فقالوا له: إذا نرفضك, فقال لهم: إذهبوا فأنتم الرافضة.”

The Rafidah amongst the Shia told Zaid ibn ‘Ali ibn al-Hussein :rahim: during his revolution that he has to abandon the love of Abu Bakr and ‘Umar and he replied: “They are the Companions of my grandfather”, they said to him: “Then we shall refuse you” so he said:”Go! for you are the Rejectionists (al-Rafidah).”

[Tu’oun Rafidat al-Yaman fi Sahabat al-Rasul, p17 by Abu Nasr Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullah al-Imam and he said: SAHIH]

:jazak:

[Muhammad_786]

If you can prove both Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them, i would commit too. Its that simple buddy!

So you do not love them until Ahle Sunnah can prove to you what you requested...You may now go ahead and change your madhab to Shia, jzk.

[samy.3660]

sorry double post

[samy.3660]

If you can prove both Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them, i would commit too. Its that simple buddy!
CHECKMATE:
1.You reject all the hadiths in which Prophet SAW expressed love of Abu Bakr(RA), and all the sahaba who did bayt to Abu Bakr(RA) under his khilafah. And still then you would not love him(RA).
2.And if you think that Naudhbillaah that Prohet SAW was wrong in choosing companion and all his hadith, then you are surely what you seem to be.

[TripolySunni]

Imam Hakim in Mustadrak, Volume 4 page 261 Tradition 4744:

Jami bin Umair narrates: 'I accompanied my aunt and approached Ayesha [ra] and asked her: 'Who was the dearest among the people to Rasulullah?' She replied 'Fatima'. I then asked 'And amongst men? She replied 'Her husband'

Imam Nasai records in Khasais Imam Ali, page 89:

Amro bin Ali narrated from Abdulaziz bin al-Khatab from Muhammad bin Ismail bin Raja al-Zubaidi from Abi Ishaq al-Shaybani from Jami bin Umair who narrated: 'I along with my father went to Ayesha and asked her (behind the veil) about Ali. She replied: 'You are asking me about a man whom I know NONE among the men that the Holy Prophet loved most except him and NONE among the women except his wife'.

Both are narrated through "Jami bin Umair" Ibn Hibban said about him:

كان رافضيّاً يضع الحديث

"He was a Rafidhi who fabricated Hadith."

Secondly the Prophet (SAWS) raised `Ali (ra) since childhood, and Fatima (ra) is his daughter, so his love for them is not compared to his love for his friends and companions, only an idiot would use the Hadith to prove the superiority of one over another.

And `Ali (ra) himself says Abu Bakr (ra) was better than him, so this is the end of the matter and any further discussion is a waste of time.

[TripolySunni]

My Response-
Another common accusation. I know where you are leading me to. Those are the areas which are subject to serious dispute, shia scholars such Sheikh Saduq, Sheikh Mufid, Shariff Radhi & Murtadha have already dealt with it. Its good that you have a high opinion of him. Moula Ali (as) has already given his answer in khutba Shiqshiqiyya in Najhul Balaghah. I quote below:

"I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly...I found that endurance thereon was wiser.."



Wait... are you a Shia?

[الشيخ المخفي]

Wait... are you a Shia?

more friends i see, try harder, throw more hard stuff! :D

@Tripoly Sunni, i know you are like the rafidhi sniffer, lol. welcome, welcome! what if i got the answer for all of u guys? will this debate cease?

[TripolySunni]

Yet again another common nasibi accusation, well i dont think i like to repeat this : Ahle Tashayyu' do not curse ALL the Sahaba Kiram & Azwaj e Rasul Kareem (ALLAHuma sale ala Muhammad wa Ale Muhammad!). Ahle Tashayyu' dissociate from those who hate or abuse the Ahle Bayt Mutahireen (as), cursing is discouraged. Some of the Sahaba Kiram revered & honored by ahle Tashayyu' are Hazrat Salman (ra), Hazrat Miqdad (ra) & Hazrat Ammar (ra) Almost all the wives of the Prophet (saw) are revered in particular Hazrat Khadija (ra), Hazrat Umme Salama (ra) & Hazrat Mariam (ra).


I see that you're a Shia under Taqqiyah, so allow me to expose you by quoting what the leadr of your Madhab al-Khoei says about the Muslims:

[I say: What is meant by "believer" here is the one who believes in Allah and his messenger and the last day and the twelve Imams (as), starting with `Ali bin abi Talib (as) and ending with al-Qa'em al-Hujjah, the awaited one may Allah hasten his appearance and make us among his supporters, and he who denies one of them then it is allowed to backbite him for several reasons: 1- It has been proven in the narrations and Ziyarat and supplications that it is permissible to curse the ones who oppose us, and that it is obligatory to disown them, and increase their insults, and accuse them, and slander them, meaning to backbite them because they are from the people of innovation and doubt. There is no doubt about their Kufr, because denying al-Wilayah and the Imams (as) even if just one, and to believe in the Khilafah of others, and to believe in myths such as al-Jabr and other beliefs necessities Kufr and Zandaqah, as mentioned in the Mutawatir narrations that clearly demonstrate the Kufr of the rejector of al-Wilayah, and the Kufr of the one who believes in the mentioned beliefs and similar other misguided beliefs. 2- Those who oppose us commit Fisq publicly, because their deeds are annulled by default as stated by the countless narrations. They even adopted what is greater than Fisq as you now know, and we will mention later that it is permissible to backbite the one who commits Fisq publicly. 3- What we benefit from the verse and the narrations is that it is forbidden to backbite against the believing brother, and it is obvious that there is no brotherhood or sanctity between us and those who oppose us. 4- It is famous and spread since the past among the laypeople of the Shia and their scholars that they used to backbite against the ones who oppose us, rather they used to insult them and curse them at all times and in all lands, in fact it is mentioned in "al-Jawahir" that this is from the necessities.]

source: His ridiculous book called Misbah al-Fuqaha'.

In other words you guys curse EVERYBODY, anyone who isn't a Twelver is cursed according to the Imams of your Madhab.

[TripolySunni]

more friends i see, try harder, throw more hard stuff! :D

@Tripoly Sunni, i know you are like the rafidhi sniffer, lol. welcome, welcome! what if i got the answer for all of u guys? will this debate cease?

Not my problem if you're quoting Garbage made by my Arab ancestors.

[الشيخ المخفي]

Not my problem if you're quoting Garbage made by my Arab ancestors.

"garbage made by my arab ancestors" who are you insulting here? Arabs as a whole? you have humiliated yourself and all of Ahle Sunnah wal Jammah!.

[الشيخ المخفي]

I see that you're a Shia under Taqqiyah, so allow me to expose you by quoting what the leadr of your Madhab al-Khoei says about the Muslims:

[I say: What is meant by "believer" here is the one who believes in Allah and his messenger and the last day and the twelve Imams (as), starting with `Ali bin abi Talib (as) and ending with al-Qa'em al-Hujjah, the awaited one may Allah hasten his appearance and make us among his supporters, and he who denies one of them then it is allowed to backbite him for several reasons: 1- It has been proven in the narrations and Ziyarat and supplications that it is permissible to curse the ones who oppose us, and that it is obligatory to disown them, and increase their insults, and accuse them, and slander them, meaning to backbite them because they are from the people of innovation and doubt. There is no doubt about their Kufr, because denying al-Wilayah and the Imams (as) even if just one, and to believe in the Khilafah of others, and to believe in myths such as al-Jabr and other beliefs necessities Kufr and Zandaqah, as mentioned in the Mutawatir narrations that clearly demonstrate the Kufr of the rejector of al-Wilayah, and the Kufr of the one who believes in the mentioned beliefs and similar other misguided beliefs. 2- Those who oppose us commit Fisq publicly, because their deeds are annulled by default as stated by the countless narrations. They even adopted what is greater than Fisq as you now know, and we will mention later that it is permissible to backbite the one who commits Fisq publicly. 3- What we benefit from the verse and the narrations is that it is forbidden to backbite against the believing brother, and it is obvious that there is no brotherhood or sanctity between us and those who oppose us. 4- It is famous and spread since the past among the laypeople of the Shia and their scholars that they used to backbite against the ones who oppose us, rather they used to insult them and curse them at all times and in all lands, in fact it is mentioned in "al-Jawahir" that this is from the necessities.]

source: His ridiculous book called Misbah al-Fuqaha'.

In other words you guys curse EVERYBODY, anyone who isn't a Twelver is cursed according to the Imams of your Madhab.



So you consider Shi'as muslims? and how many scholars of ASWJ dont, do you know that buddy, shall i quote you sources?

[TripolySunni]

"garbage made by my arab ancestors" who are you insulting here? Arabs as a whole? you have humiliated yourself and all of Ahle Sunnah wal Jammah!.

No I'm saying that the Hadith you quoted was fabricated by an Arab, and since I'm an Arab then he is my ancestor.

[TripolySunni]

So you consider Shi'as muslims? and how many scholars of ASWJ dont, do you know that buddy, shall i quote you sources?

I consider you deviant over-emotional caged monkeys.

The scholars were split, some went and made Takfeer on the Ghulat of the Shia as a whole and they have strong proofs, and some settled for calling them deviants such as I.

[الشيخ المخفي]

No I'm saying that the Hadith you quoted was fabricated by an Arab, and since I'm an Arab then he is my ancestor.

how do you know that i WILL ONLY quote "fabricated hadith of Arabs???? do you have Ilm al-ghaib? so whoever you dont agree you insult them?

[الشيخ المخفي]

I consider you deviant over-emotional caged monkeys.

The scholars were split, some went and made Takfeer on the Ghulat of the Shia as a whole and they have strong proofs, and some settled for calling them deviants such as I.


are "deviant over emotional caged monkey" considered as muslims? dont twist and turn, come to the point mate!

[TripolySunni]

Moula Ali (as)

Why do you only call `Ali (ra) as a "Mawla"? why not call Abu Bakr (ra) a Mawla? because Allah said:

فَإِنَّ اللَّـهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

{Then surely Allah is his Mawla, and Gabriel and the righteous believers} [66:4]

So we're all Mawla's of one another really.

[TripolySunni]

are "deviant over emotional caged monkey" considered as muslims? dont twist and turn, come to the point mate!

I consider them deviant Muslims and don't make general Takfeer unless I see the Shia monkey commit Kufr with my own eyes.

[Aram]

If you can prove both Moula Ali (as) & Sayeeda Zahra (as) loved them, i would commit too. Its that simple buddy!

lets forget about what others say..lets look at what Allah azza wa jal has said

"The Prophet is more worthy of the believers than themselves, and his wives are [in the position of] their mothers." surah al-ahzab

This is said addressing the believers only...as for those who do not believe...they are not your mothers so no need for a debate...its pretty clear

[TripolySunni]

how do you know that i WILL ONLY quote "fabricated hadith of Arabs???? do you have Ilm al-ghaib? so whoever you dont agree you insult them?

I was talking about the Garbage you quoted from the storybook Nahjul-Balagha.

[TripolySunni]

So you consider Shi'as muslims? and how many scholars of ASWJ dont, do you know that buddy, shall i quote you sources?

But did I prove that you were a liar or not? because you said Ahle Tashayu` never cursed and that cursing is discouraged, yet I quoted your biggest scholar and Hadithist saying it is a necessity of the filthy Madhab.

[amr123]

Since the shi'ite has been taken care of(banned), lets spend time on something useful :insh: :)

@tripolisunni
Heard that bashar asad is injured. Any news about syria?
If you have any updates do post here: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?91069-Syrian-brothers-have-launched-a-new-offensive-Post-Updates-here

[TripolySunni]

do you have Ilm al-ghaib?

No that's only for Allah and your imaginary 12th Imam (aj lol)



so whoever you dont agree you insult them?

I'm likening them to over-emotional caged monkeys in the Majazi sense , this is a poetic eloquent description.

[TripolySunni]

Since the shi'ite has been taken care of(banned), lets spend time on something useful :insh: :)

@tripolisunni
Heard that bashar asad is injured. Any news about syria?
If you have any updates do post here: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?91069-Syrian-brothers-have-launched-a-new-offensive-Post-Updates-here

That's too bad because I wanted to humiliate the liar who enters public forums as a "Hanafi" and then reveals his ugly disgusting Shia face of Zandaqah.

[TripolySunni]

Important Note:

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BENEFITING THE MOST FROM THE SALAFI/HANAFI DIVIDE ARE THE TWELVERS AND THEY ARE WORKING ON IT.

[Aram]

Important Note:

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BENEFITING THE MOST FROM THE SALAFI/HANAFI DIVIDE ARE THE TWELVERS AND THEY ARE WORKING ON IT.

yup that seemed to be his plan all along...it really does surprise me how much they over-estimate their own intelligence :rolleyes:

[samy.3660]

CHECKMATE:
1.You reject all the hadiths in which Prophet SAW expressed love of Abu Bakr(RA), and all the sahaba who did bayt to Abu Bakr(RA) under his khilafah. And still then you would not love him(RA).
2.And if you think that Naudhbillaah that Prohet SAW was wrong in choosing companion and all his hadith, then you are surely what you seem to be.

Wow how can you overlook a post??

[SASLAMS]

i was waiting for TSunni.

[Humbleakhi]

As far as I am concerned, Its a mini-madhab within the madhab of Hanbali's. They have a few great ulema of knowledge and have exerted thier numbers by either dawa or by political means through thier allegiance with the Kingdom hence supplying their dawa efforts for thier version of Islamic knowledge with hot revenues of Oil cash ;) Never the less its just a name given to a bunch of Scholars in a certain area of Saudi arabia called Najd just recently has their maxim of dawa emerged..they even managed to swift away a good number of public laymen through they'r control of the 2 holy cities. They'r Kind of known to be extreme in tendencies but other wise they'r good besides the anthropomorphism their pushing for.