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faqir
16-08-2004, 05:27 PM
Asalamu alaykum,

A very poor refutation at that.

Any comments?










Praise be to Allaah.




The Deobandis are one of the groups of Muslims. This group is connected to and named after the University of Deoband – Dar al-Uloom – in India. It is an intellectual school of thought that is deeply rooted, and everyone who graduated from that university was influenced by its academic characteristics, so that they became known as Deobandis.


The University of Deoband was founded by a group of Indian ‘ulamaa’ (scholars) after the British had put a stop to the Islamic revolution in India in 1857 CE. Its establishment was a strong reaction against western advancement and its materialistic civilization in the Indian Subcontinent, aimed at saving the Muslims from the dangers of these circumstances, especially when Delhi, the capital, had been destroyed following the revolution and the British had taken full control of it. The scholars feared that their religion might be assimilated, so Shaykh Imdaadullaah al-Muhaajir al-Makki and his student Shaykh Muhammad Qaasim al-Nanatuwi, and their companions, drew up a plan to protect Islam and its teachings. They thought that the solution was to establish religious schools and Islamic centers, thus al-Madrasah al-Islamiyyah al-Arabiyyah was established in Deoband as a center for Islam and Sharee’ah in India at the time of British rule.


The most prominent figures of this intellectual school:


1-Muhammad Qaasim


2-Rasheed Ahmad al-Kankoohi


3-Husayn Ahmad al-Madani


4-Muhammad Anwaar Shah al-Kashmiri


5-Abu’l-Hasan al-Nadvi


6-Al-Muhaddith Habeeb al-Rahmaan al-A’zami


Thoughts and beliefs


With regard to basic tenets of belief (‘aqeedah), they follow the madhhab of Abu Mansoor al-Maatreedi.


They follow the madhhab of Imaam Abu Haneefah with regard to fiqh and minor issues.


They follow the Sufi tareeqahs of the Naqshbandiyyah, Chishtiyyah, Qaadiriyyah and Saharwardiyyah with regard to spiritual development.


The thoughts and principles of the Deobandi school may be summed up as follows:


-Preserving the teachings of Islam and its strength and rituals.


-Spreading Islam and resisting destructive schools of thought and missionary activity.


-Spreading Islamic culture and resisting the invading British culture.


-Paying attention to spreading the Arabic language because it is the means of benefiting from the sources of Islamic sharee’ah.


-Combining reason and emotion, and knowledge and spirituality.


See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Muyassarah fil Adyaan wal Madhaahib (1/308).


Because the Deobandis follow the Maatreedi madhhab with regard to belief (‘aqeedah), we have to define what al-Maatreediyyah is:


This is a philosophical (kalaami) group which is named after Abu Mansoor al-Maatreedi. It is based on using rational and philosophical proof and evidence in disputes with opponents from among the Mu’tazilah, Jahamiyyah and others to establish the truths of religion and Islamic ‘aqeedah (belief). With regard to sources, the Maatreediyyah divide the bases of religion into two categories depending on the source:


1 – Divine or rational: these are matters which are established independently by reason and the reports follow that. This includes issues of Tawheed and the Divine attributes.


2 – Legislative matters or transmitted reports, These are matters which reason states may or may not exist, but there is no way to prove rationally that they exist, such as Prophethood, the torment of the grave and issues of the Hereafter. It should be noted that some of them regarded Prophethood as coming under the heading of rational issues.


It is obvious that this is contradictory to the methodology of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, because the Qur’aan, Sunnah and consensus of the Sahaabah are the sources of guidance in their view. This is in addition to their bid’ah (innovation) of dividing the sources of religion into rational matters vs. transmitted reports, which was based on the false notion of the philosophers who assumed that the religious texts contradict reason, so they tried to mediate between reason and the transmitted reports. This led them to force reason into fields where it has no place, so they came up with false rulings which contradicted sharee’ah, and that led them to say that they did not know what the texts mean and that only Allaah knows their meaning, or to misinterpret them altogether. In the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, on the other hand, there is no contradiction between sound reason and the sound transmitted reports.


See al-Mawsoo’ah al-Muyassarah fi’l-Adyaan wa’l-Madhaahib al-Mu’aasirah, 1/99


Attitude of Ahl al-Sunnah towards the Maatreediyyah


It was narrated from the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that this ummah would split into seventy-three sects, all of which would be in the Fire apart from one. The Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained that the saved group is the Jamaa’ah, which is the group that follows the same path as the Messenger SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his Companions.


Undoubtedly Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, who adhere to the Qur’aan and Sunnah in terms of both knowledge and actions, are the saved group, and this description applies to them, i.e., they adhere to that which the Messenger SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his Companions adhered to in terms of knowledge and actions.


It is not sufficient for an individual or group merely to claim to belong to the Sunnah whilst going against the methodology of the salaf, namely the Sahaabah and Taabi’een. Rather it is essential to adhere to their methodology in knowledge, action, approach and spiritual development.


The Maatreediyyah are one of the groups whose opinions include true and false views, and some things that go against the Sunnah. It is known that these groups vary with regard to the truth, how near or far they are; the closer they are to the Sunnah, the closer they are to the truth and the right way. Among them are some who went against the Sunnah with regard to basic principles, and some who went against the Sunnah with regard to more subtle issues. There are some who refuted other groups who are farther away from the Sunnah, so they are to be praised with regard to their refutation of falsehood and what they have said of truth, but they have overstepped the mark in so far as they have rejected part of the truth and gone along with some falsehood. So they have refuted a serious bid’ah by means of a lesser bid’ah, and refuted falsehood with a lesser form of falsehood. This is the case with most of the philosophers (ahl al-kalaam) who claim to belong to Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah…”


(From the words of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, al-Fataawa, 1/348).


There remains one important question to be answered, which is: what is our duty towards the Maatreediyyah and groups who hold similar beliefs such as the Deobandis and others?


The answer varies according to differences in the persons involved.


If someone is stubborn and propagates his bid’ah, then we must warn others about him and explain where he has gone wrong and deviated. But if he does not propagate his bid’ah and it is clear from his words and actions that he is seeking the truth and striving for that purpose, then we should advise him and explain to him what is wrong with this belief, and guide him in a manner that is better; perhaps Allaah will bring him back to the truth. This advice is included in the words of the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Religion is sincerity (or sincere advice).” We [the Sahabah] asked, “To whom?” He said, “To Allaah and His Book, and His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and their common folk.”


(Narrated by Muslim, 55).

Mustafa
16-08-2004, 06:12 PM
Wa alaikum as salaam

It's just a rant against the Maturidis. That Imam Ibn Taymiyya is the only person they can quote to show that the Maturidis are outside Ahl us Sunnah is quite telling.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

faqir
16-08-2004, 07:06 PM
Sure, essentially the above article appears to be taking issue with the Maturidi's use of logic in Aqidah...... a rather illogical "refutation" don't you think? :lol:

mohtashims
07-03-2012, 06:14 PM
I got the same copy-paste in my inbox by some Ghair Mukallid :)

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 04:41 AM
I got the same copy-paste in my inbox by some Ghair Mukallid :)

Send it to the trash. It is copy-waste :lol:

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 05:33 AM
Deobandis believe that one can acquire faiz from the graves of the awliya (Al Muhannad alal mufannad)

Deobandis believe that if hypothetically a prophet were to come after the Prophet Muhammad :saw: it would not affect the Khatamun Nabuwwat. (Tahzeer un Naas)

Deobandis believe that the Prophet Muhammad :saw: learnt the Urdu language from Darul Uloom Deoband (Barahin-e-Qatiah)

Deobandis believe that Rashid Ahmad Gongohi possessed "Shan-e-Nabuwwat" inside him (Sawaneh-e-Qasimi)

Deobandis believe that Allah Azza Wa Jall has the possibility to lie "Imkaan-e-Kidb" (Fatawa Rashidiyyah)

Deobandis believe that Mansoor al Hallaj who proclaimed himself to be God was a wali and was justified in saying "Anna al-Haq" (Malfoozaat Hakeem ul Ummat)

Deobandis believe Rashid Ahmad gongohi possessed the Prophet :saw: in his heart for 12 years and did not do anything without direct permission from the Prophet :saw: (Arwah-e-Thalatha)

Deobandis believe that if a pregnant woman is afraid of miscarriage she should write Surah Ra'd ayat 8 and tie it to her womb - Naaudubillah! (Amaal-e-Qurani)

Now after knowing all these Deobandi beliefs, there is no room left to doubt that the belief of the deobandi sect is nothing but kufr and shirk.

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 06:06 AM
Brother salafee muslim, let us know who are your scholars (salafee), we shall quote from them for which you have to say hundred times naudubillah.

They are the Prophets of Allah, the Ashra Mubashra and Salaf us Saliheen. I follow these scholars.

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 06:12 AM
Assalamu alaykum

Visit a Salafi or ahl-hadeeth madrasah and see what are the books they are teaching there. According to your statement they should be having quran and bukhari alone there.

The first thing for every Ahlul Hadith, whether he is studying in a madrassah or works in a bakery is that only Quran and Sahih Hadith is a proof everything else has no value for us.

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 06:49 AM
The first thing for every Ahlul Hadith, whether he is studying in a madrassah or works in a bakery is that only Quran and Sahih Hadith is a proof everything else has no value for us.

What proof do you have for working in a bakery? You are making a mockery of yourself.

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 06:50 AM
What proof do you have for working in a bakery? You are making a mockery of yourself.

Who says im working in a bakery?

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 06:58 AM
Who says im working in a bakery?

I don't know whether you go to work or you are jobless. I was referring to the post below. What proof does the Ahle hadith has from Qur'an and Sahih Hadith to study in a Madrasah or work in a bakery


The first thing for every Ahlul Hadith, whether he is studying in a madrassah or works in a bakery is that only Quran and Sahih Hadith is a proof everything else has no value for us.

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 07:02 AM
What proof does the Ahle hadith has from Qur'an and Sahih Hadith to study in a Madrasah or work in a bakery

what proof do you have from Quran and Sahih Hadith that not to study in a Madrassah or work in a bakery?

I have read the Quran Mubeen and Hadith alhamdulillah and I never found anywhere where Allah or the Prophet :saw: forbade us to work in a bakery or study in a madrassah.

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:05 AM
what proof do you have from Quran and Sahih Hadith that not to study in a Madrassah or work in a bakery?

I have read the Quran Mubeen and Hadith alhamdulillah and I never found anywhere where Allah or the Prophet :saw: forbade us to work in a bakery or study in a madrassah.

So, for you the absence of Proof is a Proof. :mash:

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 07:07 AM
So, for you the absence of Proof is a Proof. :mash:

Actually there is lots of proof from Quran and Hadith that there is nothing wrong with being a baker or studying in a madrassah. But the one who claims that something is haraam must bring the proof that it is haraam. The one who says it is halaal does not have to bring a proof.

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:17 AM
Actually there is lots of proof from Quran and Hadith that there is nothing wrong with being a baker or studying in a madrassah.

You were WARNED! You are making a mockery of yourself


But the one who claims that something is haraam must bring the proof that it is haraam.

Ok. Give us Proof why Taqleed is Haram.


The one who says it is halaal does not have to bring a proof.

And Please don't ask us the proof for Why Taqleed is Halal?

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 07:23 AM
You were WARNED! You are making a mockery of yourself



Ok. Give us Proof why Taqleed is Haram.



And Please don't ask us the proof for Why Taqleed is Halal?

I don't want to change the topic of this thread. The proof that taqleed is haraam is where Allah says:

هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Bring your proof if you are truthful (2:111)

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:25 AM
Let us start compiling the principles of gair muqallideen:

Rule No. 1

So, for you the absence of Proof is a Proof.

Rule No. 2

The one who claims that something is haraam must bring the proof that it is haraam.

Rule no. 3

The one who says it is halaal does not have to bring a proof.


:salam:

List updated

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:30 AM
I don't want to change the topic of this thread. The proof that taqleed is haraam is where Allah says:

هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Bring your proof if you are truthful (2:111)

Where is the word Taqleed?

and again you are Half-quoting. I suspect that you indeed work at a bakery. Half-Baked quotes :lol:


وَقَالُواْ لَن يَدۡخُلَ ٱلۡجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوۡ نَصَـٰرَىٰ*ۗ تِلۡكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمۡ*ۗ قُلۡ هَاتُواْ بُرۡهَـٰنَڪُمۡ إِن ڪُنتُمۡ صَـٰدِقِينَ

They say that no one shall ever enter Paradise unless he is a Jew, or a Christian. These are their fancies. Say, “Bring your proof, if you are truthful.” (Surah Al Baqarah:111; Mufti Taqi Usmani)

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 07:32 AM
Where is the word Taqleed?

and again you are Half-quoting. I suspect that you indeed work at a bakery. Half-Baked quotes :lol:


وَقَالُواْ لَن يَدۡخُلَ ٱلۡجَنَّةَ إِلَّا مَن كَانَ هُودًا أَوۡ نَصَـٰرَىٰ*ۗ تِلۡكَ أَمَانِيُّهُمۡ*ۗ قُلۡ هَاتُواْ بُرۡهَـٰنَڪُمۡ إِن ڪُنتُمۡ صَـٰدِقِينَ

They say that no one shall ever enter Paradise unless he is a Jew, or a Christian. These are their fancies. Say, “Bring your proof, if you are truthful.” (Surah Al Baqarah:111; Mufti Taqi Usmani)

If you want to discuss about taqleed I suggest you open a separate thread. As I said before i do not want to go off-topic. The topic here is about the deviant beliefs of Deoband. I mentioned several such beliefs with references from their books. Instead of changing the topic I suggest that if you are a Deobandi than first defend your beliefs (if you can).

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:36 AM
If you want to discuss about taqleed I suggest you open a separate thread. As I said before i do not want to go off-topic. The topic here is about the deviant beliefs of Deoband. I mentioned several such beliefs with references from their books. Instead of changing the topic I suggest that if you are a Deobandi than first defend your beliefs (if you can).

We don't defend distortions. And we don't tolerate deviants. If you are Man enough, then post original scans if you have them. And Please don't Copy and Waste our time

Sinan K.
08-03-2012, 07:36 AM
Deobandis believe that one can acquire faiz from the graves of the awliya (Al Muhannad alal mufannad)

Deobandis believe that if hypothetically a prophet were to come after the Prophet Muhammad :saw: it would not affect the Khatamun Nabuwwat. (Tahzeer un Naas)

Deobandis believe that the Prophet Muhammad :saw: learnt the Urdu language from Darul Uloom Deoband (Barahin-e-Qatiah)

Deobandis believe that Rashid Ahmad Gongohi possessed "Shan-e-Nabuwwat" inside him (Sawaneh-e-Qasimi)

Deobandis believe that Allah Azza Wa Jall has the possibility to lie "Imkaan-e-Kidb" (Fatawa Rashidiyyah)

Deobandis believe that Mansoor al Hallaj who proclaimed himself to be God was a wali and was justified in saying "Anna al-Haq" (Malfoozaat Hakeem ul Ummat)

Deobandis believe Rashid Ahmad gongohi possessed the Prophet :saw: in his heart for 12 years and did not do anything without direct permission from the Prophet :saw: (Arwah-e-Thalatha)

Deobandis believe that if a pregnant woman is afraid of miscarriage she should write Surah Ra'd ayat 8 and tie it to her womb - Naaudubillah! (Amaal-e-Qurani)

Now after knowing all these Deobandi beliefs, there is no room left to doubt that the belief of the deobandi sect is nothing but kufr and shirk.



Can anyone confirm this ?

Sinan K.
08-03-2012, 07:38 AM
Can anyone confirm this ?

Salafi-Muslim
08-03-2012, 07:41 AM
We don't defend distortions. And we don't tolerate deviants. If you are Man enough, then post original scans if you have them. And Please don't Copy and Waste our time

I have the originals scans for all of them. Do you want me to post all of them? And if I do will you make tawba from Deobandism?

Muhammad_786
08-03-2012, 07:42 AM
Can anyone confirm this ?

ASA,

The above points have been discussed many times on SF. Please use search function. (Berelwiyya (like Salafiyyun) use it to discredit Deobandiyya.) You'll have to decide for yourself who's closer to Haqq. (Take the good & leave the bad.)

At Tayyib
08-03-2012, 07:45 AM
I have the originals scans for all of them. Do you want me to post all of them? And if I do will you make tawba from Deobandism?

Go aHEAD

maneatinglizard
08-03-2012, 09:24 AM
I don't want to change the topic of this thread. The proof that taqleed is haraam is where Allah says:

هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Bring your proof if you are truthful (2:111)

Please tell me that you're trolling and aren't that daft!

Aram
08-03-2012, 09:35 AM
lol @ ayah quoted for taqleed is haraam

taqleed is haraam unless you make taqleed of the salafi scholars :rolleyes: thats perfectly fine because they are somewhat infallible according to the logic of the salafis :|

mohtashims
11-03-2012, 07:20 AM
ASA,

The above points have been discussed many times on SF. Please use search function. (Berelwiyya (like Salafiyyun) use it to discredit Deobandiyya.) You'll have to decide for yourself who's closer to Haqq. (Take the good & leave the bad.)

ASA Muhammed,

Have all the point been discussed on the forum ? I found half of them answered. Will list them in my next post.

sabm90
11-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Deobandis believe that one can acquire faiz from the graves of the awliya (Al Muhannad alal mufannad)

Deobandis believe that if hypothetically a prophet were to come after the Prophet Muhammad :saw: it would not affect the Khatamun Nabuwwat. (Tahzeer un Naas)

Deobandis believe that the Prophet Muhammad :saw: learnt the Urdu language from Darul Uloom Deoband (Barahin-e-Qatiah)

Deobandis believe that Rashid Ahmad Gongohi possessed "Shan-e-Nabuwwat" inside him (Sawaneh-e-Qasimi)

Deobandis believe that Allah Azza Wa Jall has the possibility to lie "Imkaan-e-Kidb" (Fatawa Rashidiyyah)

Deobandis believe that Mansoor al Hallaj who proclaimed himself to be God was a wali and was justified in saying "Anna al-Haq" (Malfoozaat Hakeem ul Ummat)

Deobandis believe Rashid Ahmad gongohi possessed the Prophet :saw: in his heart for 12 years and did not do anything without direct permission from the Prophet :saw: (Arwah-e-Thalatha)

Deobandis believe that if a pregnant woman is afraid of miscarriage she should write Surah Ra'd ayat 8 and tie it to her womb - Naaudubillah! (Amaal-e-Qurani)

Now after knowing all these Deobandi beliefs, there is no room left to doubt that the belief of the deobandi sect is nothing but kufr and shirk.

Copy paste copy paste copy paste = COPY waste!

Empty vessels makes a laoud sound! (ghalat english k liye maafi)

mohtashims
12-03-2012, 06:07 AM
Deobandis believe that one can acquire faiz from the graves of the awliya (Al Muhannad alal mufannad)

Deobandis believe that if hypothetically a prophet were to come after the Prophet Muhammad :saw: it would not affect the Khatamun Nabuwwat. (Tahzeer un Naas)

Deobandis believe that the Prophet Muhammad :saw: learnt the Urdu language from Darul Uloom Deoband (Barahin-e-Qatiah)

Deobandis believe that Rashid Ahmad Gongohi possessed "Shan-e-Nabuwwat" inside him (Sawaneh-e-Qasimi)

Deobandis believe that Allah Azza Wa Jall has the possibility to lie "Imkaan-e-Kidb" (Fatawa Rashidiyyah)

Deobandis believe that Mansoor al Hallaj who proclaimed himself to be God was a wali and was justified in saying "Anna al-Haq" (Malfoozaat Hakeem ul Ummat)

Deobandis believe Rashid Ahmad gongohi possessed the Prophet :saw: in his heart for 12 years and did not do anything without direct permission from the Prophet :saw: (Arwah-e-Thalatha)

Deobandis believe that if a pregnant woman is afraid of miscarriage she should write Surah Ra'd ayat 8 and tie it to her womb - Naaudubillah! (Amaal-e-Qurani)

Now after knowing all these Deobandi beliefs, there is no room left to doubt that the belief of the deobandi sect is nothing but kufr and shirk.



Deobandis believe that if hypothetically a prophet were to come after the Prophet Muhammad :saw: it would not affect the Khatamun Nabuwwat. (Tahzeer un Naas)

Answer:
The pity and irony is that even if the Ghair Mukallideens had seen Wikipedia they would have had some shame left not to upload and propogate such falsehood against the beloved scholars who are now resting as wiki has this text explaination itself.

Read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Qasim_Nanotvi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Qasim_Nanotvi
)
Same is discussed and explained in the forum below.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-22568.html (http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-22568.html
)

Deobandis believe that the Prophet Muhammad :saw: learnt the Urdu language from Darul Uloom Deoband (Barahin-e-Qatiah)

Answer:
Sorry. They dont believe this as it reads out. It's a dream which anyone can see and dreams do not define your aqeedah.
If I see a deam in which I am asking to someone else than ALLAH and die before waking up would that dream constitute "Kufr" or "Shirk" to me ?

Deobandis believe that Allah Azza Wa Jall has the possibility to lie "Imkaan-e-Kidb" (Fatawa Rashidiyyah)
Answer:
http://central-mosque.com/index.php/Refutations/false-allegations-against-deobandi-ulama.html

Deobandis believe that Mansoor al Hallaj who proclaimed himself to be God was a wali and was justified in saying "Anna al-Haq" (Malfoozaat Hakeem ul Ummat)
Answer:
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?522-quot-Ana-al-Haqq-quot-quot-I-am-the-Truth-quot/page11

Rest of the remaining three i guess someone else can refute.

May ALLAH pity the state of such liars.

samy.3660
12-03-2012, 06:49 AM
Has he left, or what, I hope he will bring the scanned copy...

maneatinglizard
12-03-2012, 09:22 AM
:salam:

He's banned (again).

At Tayyib
25-09-2012, 05:31 AM
Has he left, or what, I hope he will bring the scanned copy...

Why was Salafi-Muslim banned? He should be released to bring the scammed copies.

Servant.of.Allah
19-10-2012, 02:52 PM
Lets not treat Salafis as oppenents to Deobandis.

Salafis and Barelvis are opposite and let them debate...
Dont include the small deviant groups with us.

Salafis JUST TELL they follow Salaf... We DO IT - thats the difference