Sahih Al Bukhari Kitab At Tawheed Chapter 17

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

CHAPTER 17
The Saying of Allah, the Exalted,

"in order that you would be brought up under My Eye" [Ta Ha (20): 39]

[The meaning of tusna'a] is to be nurtured and brought up.

His, Magnificent is His mention, saying,

"sailing under Our observation" [al-Qamar (54): 14]

36. Musa bin Isma'il narrated to us; Juwayriyyah narrated to us; from Nafi'; from 'Abdullah who said,

The Dajjal was mentioned in the presence of the Prophet (SAW) upon which he said, 'Allah is not hidden from you, indeed Allah is not one-eyed,' and he pointed with his hand towards his eye. [He continued], 'indeed Al-Masih Ad-Dajjal is blind in the right eye and his eye looks like a protruding grape.'

37. Hafs bin 'Umar narrated to us; Shu'bah narrated to us; Qatadah informed us; I heard Anas (RA) say that the Prophet (SAW) said,

Allah did not send any prophet except that he warned his people against the one-eyed arch-liar. Indeed he is one-eyed while your Lord is not one-eyed, the word kafir (unbeliever) is written between his two eyes.

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

Same as my previous post

The authentic meaning is apreciated as well

[faqir]

There is a discussion of the Hadith in the following thread:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6537

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

Abu jaafar said and reiterated later on in that post

The issue of the word A`war has to do with the fact that a`war means to have a damaged eye or to be deprived of vision in an eye. This would mean flawed. The Orthodox theologians understood the hadith in question in Sahih Muslim to mean that Allah, Glorified and Exalted, has no faults, which a`war would be and that the word eyes used in the plural form in the Qur'an is indeed an attribute of Allah, but not a limb or organ and we consign knowledge of what Allah means by this _expression back to Him, for He knows best what he means. This principle is tafwid. Thus those that would use the hadith in Sahih Muslim are copying the two Imaams mentioned and have made a mistake to try to derive an attribute for Allah from a hadith about a false god. Let the one with wisdom be careful and stay with the first three generations.


I dont knwo what seems to be the problem - The A'war is/are attribue(s) of Allah, we affirm what Allah says, but the meaning is left to Allah?? Unlike the extreme type of tafwid whihc is to say it doesnt mean anything or it has no meaning.

jinnzaman said that it is left we dont say theyre anything, is this correct accordign to ashari or maturidi ways??

Is this what the position of the Hanbali text society's hanbalis are....i dotn find a difference between this and the salafis that you seem to call out as anthropomorphists or border line anthropomorphists.

Wa Salaam
JazakAllahU Khayran

[godilali]

Aren't Salafis against tafwid? They only allow tafwid with respect to the kayf but not the meaning, or so I thought.

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

Aren't Salafis against tafwid? They only allow tafwid with respect to the kayf but not the meaning, or so I thought.

Well form the little that i know...tafweed seems to be defined differently by each side. With what Abu jafar said that i took from Faqir's post i find nothing wrong with that and is not really tafweed in my opinion considering that Maybe i am getting a misunderstanding from the words of abu jafar.

Let me try to produce it again

The Orthodox theologians understood the hadith in question in Sahih Muslim to mean that Allah, Glorified and Exalted, has no faults, which a`war would be and that the word eyes used in the plural form in the Qur'an is indeed an attribute of Allah, but not a limb or organ and we consign knowledge of what Allah means by this _expression back to Him, for He knows best what he means. This principle is tafwid.

okay this is understood, the Prophet (SAW) negated that Allah is not A'war.

The second part is

and that the word eyes used in the plural form in the Qur'an is indeed an attribute of Allah,

Okay we affirm that Allah has Al Ayn as well as Eyes from Hud V37
- بِأَعْيُنِنَا
This means that Allah has Al Ayn and eyes as His Attributes.

but not a limb or organ

agreed

and we consign knowledge of what Allah means by this _expression back to Him, for He knows best what he means.

Maybe here there might be soemthign wrong with my understanding. When i read this part of the ayat only one meaning comes to my mind that Allah has Eyes. I affirm what Allah says that He - The most glorious and without a partner - has the attribute of eyes. As stated above. Or am I wrong???. As for what exactly the eye(s) are we leave this to Allah and Allah - the one whom none is like - knows exactly what it means.

This principle is tafweed.

Okay in his opinion yes I can say i am upon tafweed and the form my limited knowledge the salaf were upon this type of understanding.

Just to make sure and reiterate that there is a meaning to everythign that Allah says, just that we dont know what it exactly means and we leave the meaning to Allah. Right???

I think if what i said is affirmed by the ashari/maturidee position then Alhamdulillah out of the many matters that I disagree or dont follow among the views of this then this shoudlnt be one of them unless other matters are explained. Allahu Alim

JazakAllahU khayran

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

Aren't Salafis against tafwid? They only allow tafwid with respect to the kayf but not the meaning, or so I thought.

BTW I dont really think im the kind of salafi that close minded people tend to group along with other close minded individuals..AllahU Alim...I am just trying to understand wasssup!!

[godilali]

Maturidi Aqidah:
http://alashrafia.com/aqida_kandhlavi.html

THE STAGES OF QUALITIES AND THE AMBIGUOUS QUALITIES
The qualities of Allaah Ta'ala that are enumerated in the Qur'aan Shareef and the Ahaadith are of two types. The first are those whose meanings and imports are clear and easily understood, like Knowledge, Power, Choice, Speech, etc., etc. Such Qualities are known as "Sifaate- Muhkimaat" and "Sifaat-e- Waadihaat". Regarding these, there is a consensus amongst the Ahle Haqq that it is necessary and binding upon us to believe and accept these Qualities upon their apparent meanings. It is not permissible to offer any interpretations regarding the meanings of any of these Qualities.

The second type, are those in which there is no clarity and certainty with regard to their meaning. Besides the words and dictionary meaning there is no definite certainty to their meanings. There is no room or authority for conjecture and opinions. Examples for these types of Qualities are; 'Face' (of Allaah Ta'ala), 'Hand', 'Soul', 'Eye', 'Feet', 'Fingers' and Allaah Ta'ala’s being established on His Throne. Such types of Qualities are known as 'Sifaat-e-Mutashaabihaat'. Regarding these Qualities there are three groups; first the Qadaria and Mu'tazila, second the Mujissima and Mushabbiha, and thirdly the Ahte Sunnat Wal Jamaat.

MUSHABBIHA SECT

The Mushabbiha sect is also known as the Mujassima sect. They have opted for the literal meanings to these Qualities of Allaah Ta'ala, and they have gone to such an extent that they aver that Allaah Ta’ala has limbs and body parts, like face, hands, feet, etc., etc. And they aver that Allaah Ta'ala sits on His Throne just like how a king sits on a throne. This sect has turned a blind eye and pleaded ignorance to the Aayaat; "There is nothing like Him". "There is no equal to Him"; And for Allaah is the highest example'; etc. They regard Allaah Ta’ala as having a body and form.

MU'TAZILA SECT

This sect has taken the exact opposite view of the Mushabbiha sect. They regard these Qualities as being completely figurative in meaning, so much so that they refute these Qualities and Names of Allaah Ta'ala. Without any real proof, they have resorted to making all sorts of interpretations for these words. For example, wherever the word 'hand' appears in the Qur'aan or Hadith for Allaah Ta'ala, they interpret it as 'Power' or 'Ability'. Sometimes they interpret it as a 'blessing'. The Qur'aan Majeed, itself, according to the context of the Aayaat, renders such interpretations as Faasid and incorrect. The word 'hand' at time appears in the dual form, implying two hands. As Allaah Ta'ala says: "What prevents you (O shaitaan) that you prostrate to that which I have created with My two hands?"

In this Aayat, to regard the meaning of 'hand' as Power would be incorrect, since the Aayat talks of two hands and Allaah Ta’ala 's Power is One. It would be incorrect to say that Allaah Ta'ala has two Powers. Secondly, this Aayat portrays the superiority and honour of Hadhrat Aadam (alaihi salaam), in that Allaah Ta’ala says he created him with His two hands, therefore why do you (shaitaan) not make sajdah to him. If the meaning of 'hand' was Power, then it would not show any honour to Hadhrat Aadam (alaihi salaam), since shaitaan was also created through the Power of Allaah Ta'ala. In fact, all the creation was created through the Power of Allaah Ta'ala. What then would be so special of Hadhrat Aadam (alaihi salaam)? Everything and everybody was created with the Power of Allaah Ta’ala. In the same way to interpret the word `hand' to mean 'blessings' would also be incorrect, since the blessings of Allaah Ta’ala cannot be restricted to one or two, they are numerous. In short, just like the Mushabbiha's this Mu'tazila sect is also astray.

AHLE SUNNAT WAL JAMAAT

This the group on Haqq. They say that the sects of the past are all wrong and deviated. The Mushabbiha sects seem to deny the Aayat "There is nothing like Him"; and the Mu'tazila sect seem to deny the Aayats of Mutashaabihaat. It is dear that both these sects are on the path of deviation. The Ahle Haqq say that the truth is this that we accept these qualities for Allaah Ta'ala and no effort will be made to unravel the reality of it through conjecture, opinion, "kashf" and "ilhaam". As these qualities of Mutashaabihaat appear in the Qur'aan and Sunnat, we accept them as they are without any investigations. We do not interpret them as do the Mu'tazilas, so that we do not become deniers of the qualities of Mutashaabihaat as the Qadarias and Mu'tazilas and we do not say like the Mushabbihas and the Mujassamas that, Nauthubillah, Allaah Ta'ala has limbs and organs. We also do not say that Allaah Ta’ala sits on His Throne.

Those qualities which Allaah Ta’ala attributes to Himself in the Qur'aan and Hadith, we believe in it and we hand over the reality of their meanings to Allaah Ta'ala. Allaah Ta’ala is All Hearing and All Seeing. However, His Listening and Seeing is not like our listening and seeing. In the same way His Hand and Feet is unlike our hands an feet. The Ahle Haqq have not gone to the extreme like the Mu'tazilas on the one hand and the Mushabbihas on the other. We have taken the middle path. It is the belief of all the pious predecessors and the four Imaams of Fiqh. Imaam Abu Hanifa (rahmatullah alaih) says: "When Allaah Ta'ala mentions in the Qur'aan about (His) Face, Hands, Soul, Eyes, thus they are His Qualities. It is not said that His Hand signifies His Power and Blessings, because indeed in it is negation of His Qualities, and this is the belief of the Qadarias and Mu 'tazilas. But His Hand is His Quality without any form...'

This is also reported from Imaam Maalik, Imaam Shaafi and Imaam Hambal (rahmatullah alaihim) and the Aimmah of Hadith. It is extremely difficult for a weak, incapable human being who has limited speech and understanding to properly explain the Perfect and Excellent Qualities of Allaah Rabbul Izzat, Most High, Most Powerful, Most Mighty. We can say this much that from the possibilities, these Qualities are the best and highest possible. We establish them for Allaah Ta’ala. And when we are faced with two words that have opposite meanings then we will use for Allaah Ta’ala the more appropriate one, which will be the better and higher of the two. If for example we have existent and non-existent, powerful and weak, knowledgeable and ignorant, etc., and other such opposing meaning words then we will use the higher of the two for Allaah Ta’ala, like Existent, Powerful, Knowledgeable, etc.
And we hold this belief that it is not possible for us to praise Him more than that. His Pure Being has no similarity. "There is nothing like Him and He is All Hearing All Seeing":

And because we are not aware of the proper etiquettes for describing Devine Qualities therefore, we will use those words to describe the Greatness of Allaah which Rasulullaah (sAllaahu alaihi wasallam) had shown us.

[Danish Al hyderabaadee]

As Salam alaykum Wa RahamtullahI Wa BAraktuh

JazakAllahU kahran goldilali

I dont see the confusion regarding this? From what i have learnt and my understanding there is no problem with this AllahU Alim

[godilali]

"I think if what i said is affirmed by the ashari/maturidee position then Alhamdulillah out of the many matters that I disagree or dont follow among the views of this then this shoudlnt be one of them unless other matters are explained. Allahu Alim"

Alhamdulillah, now that we are in the same page with respect to the attributes, can you state some of the other issues that you differ in?