Hadra dancing, whriling dervishes is this supported in Islam?

[Abdur_Rahman]

Well is it? Furthermore Why?

I know as muslims we are supposed to follow the 'text' of our pious Salaf in accordance with the actions and examples of our Nabi , however from limited knowledge is there 'any' (authentic) texts that support the dancing or the twirling?

I've seen how the dervish invididuals are spinning around, now it looks out of the ordinary, however what is their claim to fame?

Just like the Hadra dance I've seen pics, but don't know much about it.

[Omar HH]

Difference of opinion.

Sunnis have been debating about this for years.

But Ibn al-Banna described it best:

On the Hadra according to the best of opinions,
Is that of Iraq is not that of Syria

Shaykh al-Bouti is against it, Shaykh Nuh is for it - both have their proofs. I will insha Allah post them later.

[Omar HH]

One thing you should understand my brother is that Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama`ah had much difference of opinion on many issues. Do not be turned off of Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama`ah because you disagree with Hadra or Whirling Darwish because this is a contraversial issue within Ahlul Sunnah itself! Some examples my friend:

• Some `Ullema declared Yazid a Kaffir, others were silent upon him.
• Some `Ullema said that the Ottomans were not even true Khulafa (Caliphs)
• Some `Ullema believed Hadra was allowed and some called it innovation.
• Some `Ullema said not to sing the Adhan others sang it.
• Some `Ullema said the daff was haram in everything except weddings - other `Ullema were daff players!
• etc.

For every single thing about Tassawuf (including proofs of Tassawuf, refuting those who are anti-Tassawuf, what true Tassawuf is, how to tell true Sufis from false Sufis, the history of the Hadra, etc.) know that Ibn al-Banna wrote an UNPARALLELED work which has been translated by the Guiding Helper Foundation called al-Mahabith al-Asliyah which can be found here:

http://guidinghelper.com/pdf/MA_Explanation.pdf

Read the whole thing and you honestly will be very informed!

As for the pro and anti Hadra arguments insha Allah I will post them next post.

[Omar HH]

Q
Salaam alaikum,

What is the position in the Hanbali school (both early and later classical scholars, as well as the "controversial ones" throughout) on the subject of Hadra (the Sufi standing/dancing form of zhikr)?

Wasalaam

A
wa `alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

The books indicate that the scholars of the Hanbali madhhab, and as was the case in other schools as well, did not have a consensus concerning the hadra.

One scholar who was adamant against the hadra is Ibn Al-Jawzi. This is seen in Mukhtasr Minhaj Al-Qasidin, Ahkam Al-Nisa' and Talbis Iblis. From his accounts of what happened in the hadras of his time he was totally justified in doing so. The hadras he talked about were gatherings of the zanadiqa and they were assemblies of moral corruption..

And one scholar who was a proponent of the hadra was none other than Al-Safarini, the later Hanbali who authored one of the greatest book on athari `aqidah as well as Ghidha Al-Lubab Sharh Alfiyat Al-Adab. Sheikh `Abd Al-Qadir `Isa frequently cites Ghidha Al-Lubab in his book Haqa`iq `An Al-Tasawwuf. In addition to being a top notch scholar of Hanbali fiqh and `aqidah, he was also a student of the great Hanafi sufi sheikh Sheikh `Abd Al-Ghani Al-Nablusi.

Something to keep in mind is that many of the things that Ibn Al-Jawzi condemned Al-Safarini and other proponents of the hadra condemn as well. Proponents of the hadra put conditions on it.

Such a delicate and controversial topic warrants a detail study, if only to show each side that there is enough evidence to require mutual respect. We all, in sha Allah, have more important things to do. Like actually practicing tazkiyat al-nafs instead of talking about it and soiling our tongues.

May Allah be pleased and have mercy on all of the scholars of Islam.

And Allah knows best.

wa al-salamu `alaykum
--musa

> I thought the hadra was offensive in the Hanafi maddhaab?

As-salamu `alaykum,

The Hanafi Imam, Imam Khayr al-Din al-Ramli wrote in favour of the
hadra in his al-Fatawa Khayriyya, a work which is often quoted in
Imam Ibn `Abidin's Radd al-muhtar, and which is considered by many to
be the pre-eminent fiqh reference in the Hanafi legal school. Imam
Ibn `Abidin quoted a qasida in praise of the hadra (Radd al-muhtar,
3.308). Shaykh `Abd al-Ghani al-Nabalusi, a Hanafi scholar of some
repute, also wrote a book in favour of the hadra.

Audition or singing (sama`) in the case of the hadra is regarded as a
dispensation by Imam Ibn `Abidin. He says, "the dispensation of such
cases of dhikr and sama` is for the knowers of Allah, who devote
their times to the best of spiritual works, who are travelling on the
mystic path, in firm command of themselves to refrain from low
states, and who do not listen to audition except to the Divine, or
long for any besides Him...." (Radd, 3.308) The Imam then goes on to
discuss a lengthy list of spiritual states.

Please keep me in your prayers,

wa s-salam, Yahya

The Sufi Hadra
Answered by Shaykh Amjad Rasheed

[French version at the bottom]

What is the ruling regarding the Sufi hadra in the Shafi'i school?

Preliminaries

[m: The hadra is a form of group dhikr where the attendees most often stand in a circle. Depending on the particular Sufi order, it can contain elements such as singing, dancing, and music.]

Answer

The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization.[1] Whatever has been decisively proven as impermissible is not permitted, and whatever has been decisively proven as permissible is permitted. If the hadra contains something impermissible, like the free-mixing of marriageable men and women in way that is conducive to temptation or unrestrained looking at the unlawful, then attending it is forbidden. Similarly, if [m: the hadra] includes the playing of musical instruments like the kubah (a drum that is wide at each end and narrow in the middle), mizmar ([m: a wood wind instrument similar to the flute]), lute (Ar. 'ud), and similar musical instruments, then attending it is forbidden. As for the duff ([m: a shallow drum, like a tambourine but without the metal jingles]) and drum that is wide at both ends and the middle, they are permissible in our school for men and women, during weddings and at other times. If the hadra is free from forbidden elements and combines the remembrance of Allah Most High, praising Him as He deserves, and lauding the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace), then all of this is fundamentally recommended in Islamic law according to the consensus of Muslims, as is clear. If movement is added to this, as some Sufis do, there is no harm in it, because dancing is permissible for men and women in our school as long it doesn't contain effeminate or licentious movements as wicked and shameless people do. Otherwise, [m: if it contains such prohibited movements], it is forbidden. Imam Ibn Hajar Al-Haytami, the last muharrir [2] imam of our school, was asked about Sufis dancing during their ecstasy and he upheld their practice. In part, he says, "it is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of remembrance [m: of Allah] and audition according to a group of great scholars, among them being Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Abdussalam." (Fatawa Hadithiyya, p. 298)

Al-Jalal As-Suyuti, the imam and hadith master, was asked about the Sufi dance: is it permissible to repudiate those who do it? He replied that it was not permissible to repudiate them and that the one who repudiates is mistaken. He narrated this from a group of scholars (al-Hawi li’l-Fatawi).

The upshot is that if one wishes to do this [m: (i.e., attend a hadra)] while observing the above-mentioned rules, it is not permissible to repudiate him because, at worst, this matter is differed upon. It is not permissible to repudiate one who does [m: an act that is differed upon], as Imam Al-Ghazali (Ihya), An-Nawawi (Sharh Sahih Muslim), Al-'Izz Ibn Abdussalam (Shajarah Al-Ahwal Wa Al-Ma'arif), other others point out [m: in the parenthesized texts].

Notes

[m: [1] The ruling on an issue derives from its conceptualization is a maxim of classical logic. It means that before one can pass judgment on an issue, one has to properly understand it.

[2] A muharrir imam is one who authoritatively identifies the strong and weak positions within the school. ]

I unfortunately cannot find al-Bouti's anti-Hadra fatwa.

[Omar HH]

The Public Dhikr (Hadra)

© Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1996.

A person coming to the Middle East to learn something about the tariqa is likely, at some point in his visit, to see the brethren in the hadra or “public dhikr” as it has been traditionally practiced by generations of Shadhilis in North Africa under such sheikhs as al-‘Arabi al-Darqawi, Muhammad al-Buzidi, and Ahmad al-‘Alawi before being brought to Damascus from Algeria by Muhammad ibn Yallis and Muhammad al-Hashimi at the beginning of this century.
Upon entering the mosque, one will see circles of men making dhikr (women participants are screened from view upstairs) standing and holding hands, now slightly bowing in unison, now moving up and down with their knees in unison, the rows rising and falling, breathing in unison, while certain of them alternate at pacing around their midst, conducting the tempo of the group’s motion and breathing with their arms and step. Singers near the sheikh, in solo or chorus, deliver mystical odes to the rhythm of the group; high, spiritual poetry from masters like Ibn al-Farid, Sheikh Ahmad al-‘Alawi, ‘Abd al-Qadir al-Himsi, and our own sheikh.
Though a very stirring experience, it is meticulously timed and controlled, and as with all group dhikrs, the main adab or “proper behaviour” is harmony. No one should stand out in any way, but rather all subordinate their movement, breathing, and dhikr to that of the group. The purpose is to forget one’s individuality in the collective sea of spirits making dhikr in unison. Individual motives, thoughts, and preoccupations are momentarily put aside by means of the Sacred Dance, of moving together as one, sublimating and transcending the limitary and personal through the timelessness of rhythm, conjoined with the melody of voices singing spiritual meanings.
It is an experience that joins those travelling towards Allah spiritually, socially, and emotionally. Few forget it, and visitors from the West to whom it is unfamiliar sometimes wonder if it is a bid‘a or “reprehensible innovation,” as it was not done in the time of the earliest Muslims, or whether it is unlawful (haram) or offensive (makruh); and why they see the ulama and righteous attending it in Damascus, Jerusalem, Aden, Cairo, Tripoli, Tunis, Fez, and wherever there are people of the path.
I was one of those who asked our sheikh about the relation of the hadra to the shari‘a or “Sacred Law” which is the guiding light of our tariqa. As Muslims, our submission to the law is total, and there are no thoughts or opinions after legally answering the question “Does the hadra agree with orthodox Islam?”
Because it comprises a number of various elements, such as gathering together for the remembrance of Allah (dhikr), singing, and dancing, we should reflect for a moment on some general considerations about the Islamic shari‘a before discussing each of these separately.
First, the Islamic shari‘a furnishes a comprehensive criterion for all possible human actions, whether done before or never done before. It classifies actions into five categories, the obligatory (wajib), whose performance is rewarded by Allah in the next life and whose nonperformance is punished; the recommended (mandub), whose perfor¬mance is rewarded but whose nonperformance is not pun¬ished; the permissible (mubah), whose performance is not rewarded and whose nonperformance is not punished; the offensive (makruh), whose nonperformance is rewarded but whose performance is not punished; and the unlawful (haram), whose nonperformance is rewarded and whose performance is punished.
Now, Allah in His wisdom has made the vast majority of human actions permissible. He says in surat al-Baqara, “It is He who has created everything on earth for you” (Koran 2:29), which establishes the shari‘a principle that all things are mubah or permissible for us until Allah indicates to us that they are otherwise. Because of this, the fact that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) did not do this or that particular practice does not prove that it is offensive or unlawful, but only that it is not obligatory.
This is the reason that when shari‘a scholars speak of bid‘a, they do not merely mean an “innovation” or something that was never done before, which is the lexical sense of the word, but rather a “blameworthy innovation” or something new that no legal evidence in Sacred Law attests to the validity of, which is the shari‘a sense of the word. The latter is the bid‘a of misguidance mentioned in the hadith “The worst of matters are those that are new, and every innovation (bid‘a) is misguidance” (Sahih Muslim. 5 vols. Cairo 1376/1956. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1403/1983, 2.592: 867), which, although general in wording, scholars say refers specifically to new matters that entail something offensive or unlawful. Imam Shafi‘i explains:
New matters are of two kinds: something newly begun that contravenes the Koran, sunna, the position of early Muslims, or consensus of scholars (ijma‘): this innovation is misguidance. And something newly inaugurated of the good in which there is no contravention of any of these, and is therefore something which although new (muhdatha), is not blameworthy. For when ‘Umar (Allah be well pleased with him) saw the [tarawih] prayer being performed [in a group by Muslims at the mosque] in Ramadan, he said, “What a good innovation (bid‘a) this is,” meaning something newly begun that had not been done before. And although in fact it had, this does not negate the legal considerations just advanced [n: i.e. that it furnishes an example of something that ‘Umar, who was a scholar of the Sahaba, praised as a “good innovation” despite his belief that it had not been done before, because it did not contravene the broad principles of the Koran or sunna] (Dhahabi: Siyar a‘lam al-nubala’. 23 vols. Beirut: Mu’assassa al-Risala, 1401/1981, 10.70).
As for the practice of Muslims gathering together for group dhikr or the “invocation of Allah,” there is much evidence of its praiseworthiness in the sunna—aside from the many Koranic verses and the hadiths establishing the general merit of dhikr in every state—such as the hadith related by Bukhari:
Truly, Allah has angels going about the ways, looking for people of dhikr, and when they find a group of men invoking Allah, they call to one another, “Come to what you have been looking for!” and they circle around them with their wings up to the sky of this world.
Then their Lord asks them, though He knows better than they, “What do My servants say?” And they reply, “They say, Subhan Allah (“I glorify Allah’s absolute perfection”), Allahu Akbar (“Allah is ever greatest”), and al-Hamdu li Llah (“All praise be to Allah”), and they extoll Your glory.”
He says, “Have they seen Me?” And they answer, “No, by Allah, they have not seen You.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen Me?” And they say, “If they had seen You, they would have worshipped You even more, glorified You more, and said Subhan Allah the more.”
He asks them, “What do they ask of Me?” And one answers, “They ask You paradise.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, My Lord, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have been more avid for it, sought it more, and been more desirous of it.”
Then He asks them, “From what do they seek refuge?” And they answer, “From hell.” He says, “Have they seen it?” And they say, “No, by Allah, they have not seen it.” And He says, “How would it be, had they seen it?” And they say, “If they had seen it, they would have fled from it even more, and been more fearful of it.”
He says, “I charge all of you to bear witness that I have forgiven them.” Then one of the angels says, “So-and-so is among them, though he is not one of them but only came for something he needed.” And Allah says, “They are companions through whom no one who keeps their company shall meet perdition” (Sahih al-Bukhari. 9 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint (9 vols. in 3). Beirut: Dar al-Jil, n.d., 8.107–8: 6408).
The last line of the hadith shows the highest approval for gatherings of dhikr in the religion of Allah. Some other accounts transmit the condemnation of Ibn Mas‘ud (Allah be well please with him) for gathering together to say Subhan Allah (perhaps out of fear of ostentation), but even if we were to grant their authenticity, the above hadith of Bukhari, containing the explicit approval of such gatherings by Allah and His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) suffices us from needing the permission of Ibn Mas‘ud or any other human being. Further, the explicit mention of the various forms of dhikr in the hadith suffice in reply to certain contemporary “re-formers” of Islam, who attempt to reduce “sessions of dhikr” to educational gatherings alone by quoting the words of ‘Ata' (ibn Abi Rabah, Mufti of Mecca, d. 114/732), who reportedly said,
Sessions of dhikr are the sessions of [teaching people] the lawful and unlawful, how you buy, sell, pray, fast, wed, divorce, make the pilgrimage, and the like (Nawawi: al-Majmu‘: Sharh al-Muhadhdhab. 20 vols. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Medina: al-Maktaba al-Salafiyya, n.d., 1.21).
Perhaps ‘Ata' intended to inform people that teaching and learning shari‘a are also a form of dhikr, but in any case it is clear from the Prophet’s explicit words (Allah bless him and give him peace) in the above hadith that “sessions of dhikr” cannot be limited to teaching and learning Sacred Law alone, but primarily mean gatherings of Muslims to invoke Allah in dhikr.
As for dancing, Imam Ahmad relates from Anas (Allah be well pleased with him), with a chain of transmission all of whose narrators are those of Bukhari except Hammad ibn Salama, who is one of the narrators of Muslim, that
the Ethiopians danced in front of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace); dancing and saying [in their language], “Muhammad is a righteous servant.” The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “What are they saying?” And they said, “‘Muhammad is a righteous servant’” (Musnad al-Imam Ahmad. 6 vols. Cairo 1313/1895. Reprint. Beirut: Dar Sadir, n.d., 3.152).
Other versions of the hadith clarify that this took place in the mosque in Medina, though in any case, the fact that dancing was done before the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) establishes that it is mubah or “permissible” in the shari‘a, for if it had been otherwise, he would have been obliged to condemn it. For this reason, Imam Nawawi says:
Dancing is not unlawful, unless it is languid, like the movements of the effeminate. And it is permissible to speak and to sing poetry, unless it satirizes someone, is obscene, or alludes to a particular woman” (Minhaj al-talibin wa ‘umdat al-muttaqin. Cairo 1338/1920. Reprint. Cairo: Mustafa al-Babi al-Halabi, n.d., 152).
This is a legal text for the permissibility of both dancing and singing poetry from the Minhaj al-talibin, the central legal work of the entire late Shafi‘i school. Islamic scholars point out that if something which is permissible, such as singing poetry or dancing, is conjoined with something that is recommended, such as dhikr or gatherings to make dhikr, the result of this conjoining will not be offensive (makruh) or unlawful (haram). Imam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning “a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr,” and he replied:
How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, “. . . those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides” (Koran 3:191). And ‘A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, “The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times” [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spiritual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al-Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja‘far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, “You resemble me in looks and in character,” dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience (al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933–34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).
Now, Suyuti was a hadith master (hafiz, someone with over 100,000 hadiths by memory) and a recognized mujtahid Imam who authored hundreds of works in the shari‘a sciences, and his formal opinion, together with the previously cited ruling of Imam Nawawi in the Minhaj al-talibin, constitutes an authoritative legal text (nass) in the Shafi‘i school establishing that circles of dhikr which comprise the singing of spiritual poetry and dancing are neither offensive (makruh) nor unlawful (haram)—unless associated with other unlawful factors such as listening to musical instruments or the mixing of men and women—but rather are permissible.
To summarize, the hadra of our tariqa, consisting of circles of invocation of Allah (dhikr) conjoined with the singing of permissible poetry and dancing, is compatible with the Sacred Law of orthodox Islam; and when the latter elements facilitate presence of heart with Allah (as they do with most people who possess hearts), they deserve a reward from Allah by those who intend them as such. And this is the aim and importance of the hadra in the tariqa.

[Omar HH]

The Final Word on This - Ibn al-Banna

183 (Section 3, Ruling 6: Concerning the Chanting and Singing Gatherings of the People of the Path) Normal people talk
much useless talk about the chanting and reciting of metered verses and remembrances out loud and in a group in unison
by the people of the Path. | But, this faction considers this practice a garden (among the gardens of Paradise).
184 The scholars from `Iraq have declared it unlawful. | The scholars from Makkah and Madinah have decided to remain
silent about it.
185 But, the scholars of the Path also have a view | since they have made the unison chanting gatherings a cornerstone of
the Path.
186 It is considered mubah for people who do not have attachment to the material world. | And its being mandub for the
teachers of the Path is clear.
187 And it is considered to be unlawful for the common man (attached to his desires) | (and all these rulings are)
according to the noble and renown teachers of the Path.

188 In these unison chanting gathering, one's internal state is expedited and made to show up rapidly | and this state can
either be low or high.
189 The chanting gathering is a path which has limits according to the teachers | and both the one who will obtain divine
spiritual fruits and the one who will not obtain them crosses this path.
190 So, one person who crosses rises to the Place of Delight | and another person who crosses drops down to the Record
of the Wretched.
191 And in these gathering, the disciple receives a temporary spiritual high and happiness and then it goes away after an
hour. | But, yes, poison if taken even for one hour can kill.
192 Whether one rises via the chanting gatherings or one falls is an analogy based upon the nature of one's soul. And the
chanting gatherings inscribe marks on the heart | since the state descends on the disciple while in the gathering and then
goes back up (leaving him with only marks in his heart).
193 Its traces remain in the chambers of the heart | like the traces of heavy rain on a strong but flexible branch.
194 And during these unison chanting gatherings, one may not talk | nor fool around, and nor laugh out loud (starting
from a smile).
195 And the young and inexperienced are barred from entry into the chanting gatherings. | But if they are present, they
must remain behind the older men (who will have formed a closed circle while standing).
196 And dancing in this gathering without being overcome with a spiritual state | is not from the Path of the accomplished
spirituals.
197 And if the person stays calm and still | it is better and less likely to cause misunderstandings.
198 But, no one needs to engage in these chanting gatherings | except he who is weak of state and has an undeveloped soul
(over which he does not have control).

199 And shouting out loud and ripping clothes | is a sign of weakness as is wildly swinging one's head or clapping one's
hands.
200 And the people of the Path did not used to gather to attend these chanting gatherings (rather, these gatherings were
held spontaneously when the teacher saw fit). | Nor were the people of the Path overly disappointed when these chanting
gathering did not take place.
201 And there were no professional chanters in these gatherings, | nor musicians playing, and nor professional singers.
202 Nor were there string musical instruments, | nor percussion, and nor wind.
203 Nor were candles prepared, nor exquisite flooring, nor any of these formalities | (And as for these instruments'
general permissibility), then some past scholars have taken oaths about it (but it remains an issue of difference of legal
opinion).
204 And the teachers of the Path have ordered that these chanting gathering take place at private locations behind closed
doors | and that is only done to avoid the attendence of unfit people.
205 And those who declare wrong the recitation of poetry do not have much proof | since even the Messenger of Allah
(May Allah bless him and give him peace) listened to poetry (and he even quoted a verse from Labīd (a famous poet) in a
hadith recorded in Sahih Bukhari).
206 (Now we will give you the history of these chanting gatherings.) These chanting gatherings originally started | when a
disciple would come to his teacher complaining about an illness in his heart.
207 And then one more disciple would come and then one more | until each of them was standing separately before the
teacher.
208 And all would lay bare their individual complaints | (and then the teacher came up with a single method to cure all of
them) and thus he made them join together (in a circle) for the unison chanting until they replaced their disease with a
medicine and cure.

209 And when the souls of the disciples became energetic again | and their laziness and heaviness went away,
210 And their hearts were filled with secrets | and their minds were full of productive contemplation,
211 The head ode reciter would recite a verse of poetry | and it would penetrate the deep thoughts of those present.
212 Every person present benefited | but some understood only the peel and some the very core.
213 And if the ode reciter completed the stanza, | the teachers of Path would then explain the meaning with gems of words
enough to fill a volume.
214 And this is how the chanting gatherings of the people of the Path were conducted. | So, do you see anything wrong
with it if it is done this way?
215 (And now returning to our rulings), they have disliked that one disciple throw off his outer garment upon seeing
another disciple throw it off (from being overcome by his state) | because in doing this rises a type of unhealthy
competition between the disciples.
216 And whoever throws off his outer garment from being overcome by his state, | he can never take that garment back.
217 (As in throwing it off, he has given it away as a gift) and those who take back the gifts they gave | are (according to
the Prophet (May Allah bless him and give him peace) [{Sahih Muslim}]) like the dog which vomits and then tries to eat
back his vomit.
218 (And after explaining what the unison chanting gatherings are), we say that their ruling in the view of the best of
rulings | is that the view of the scholars of `Iraq is not the view of the scholars of Syria (meaning that no conclusive
ruling can be given).
219 (And coming back to outer garments being thrown off), they ask the first person who enters the room after an outer
garment has been thrown off about to whom it should be given to. | And they only do this to increase the harmony among
the disciples and so that they may gain experience of the Path. (Alternatively if no one enters the room, they ask someone
with experience in the Path to whom the garment should be given.)
220 Lastly if a garment falls off merely by mistake, it is returned to its owner and there is no disagreement about this. |
And this measure of detail about the chanting gatherings is enough.

[Hamoudeh]

Assalamu Alaikum

For Shaykh al-Buti's criticism of the Sema, see:

Whirling of the Darawish and it's Criticism

Ma`salam

[Omar HH]

Assalamu Alaikum

For Shaykh al-Buti's criticism of the Sema, see:

Whirling of the Darawish and it's Criticism

Ma`salam

Thank You so much!!!

Yeah exactly thats what I needed.

Two opinions both are followable it's up to you.

But as Ibn al-Banna describes above there are instances where the Hadra is Mandub, Mubah, and even Haram!

Therefore read everything above.

[Hamoudeh]

Assalamu Alaikum

You're welcome and thank you as well. I also made a topic once about this here on SF: Practices of the Mawlawiyya. I'm soon going to Aleppo insha'allah, and hopefully I will be able to speak to some scholars about it.

Ma`salamaat

[Abu Hurayrah]

Most important paragraph of the thread is:

Such a delicate and controversial topic warrants a detail study, if only to show each side that there is enough evidence to require mutual respect. We all, in sha Allah, have more important things to do. Like actually practicing tazkiyat al-nafs instead of talking about it and soiling our tongues.