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Thread: How to Answer an Atheist........

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    Senior Member MissyB's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    I'm waiting Russell, I have noticed u have disappeared. Was the questions too much to handle? OK let me make the questions simple for you, a Yes or NO answer should suffice.

    1. According to you, you want a new religion of atheism which has humanism.Does Religion not have humanism?
    2. Ur new law and order u want to create, where does it get its rules from. Do not kill, do not still, do not rape etc...? These are already in religion. So are you saying Religion's law is not sufficient for society?

    Allah has perfected Islam, not just as a spiritual religion but as a way on earth on how to create peace in society. If u think religion is the cause of unrest in the world LOOOOOOOOOOOLS is all i have to say, u need to read some of the political threads and realize the cause of unrest is US/UK/ISRAEL/IRAN etc.... trying to exploit oil, people, resources, countries etc... like it has done for many centuries, the slave trade, the crusades, Hiroshima I could go on....

    Neways all I ask you to do in answer yes or no for the 2 questions above, u can elaborate why, and PLEASE stop changing topics until u have fully answered this one.


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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Hi Enigma

    The basis for humanism is that human happiness should be the driver for our moral codes. This comes from the realization that, in the absence of gods there is no choice. Who else is going to decide for us?

    Who decides is an interesting question, I think we should all have an input into it but exactly how it would work is an open question. I suspect that some form of representative government would have to do the work and yes they are prone to all sorts of foolish decisions and they will make mistakes but they will make less if they are not trying to please one of the thousands of contradictory gods weíve invented so far. The first step is to accept that their aim must be to increase human happiness.

    Having different peoples with different likes and dislikes is fine, the aim is to get everyone to get along and to let others be happy. Morality would have to encourage that. I discussed the idea that it may be necessary to build an enclave for some peoples who have really contradictory ideas of what is a good society so itís not a one size fits all approach. The approach would also have to deal with the likes of sociopaths who are happiest when they can do things which will make the rest of society unhappy so there are people for whom incarceration would be necessary.

    Given that our laws are, more and more, leaving any religious roots behind and becoming more based on human wants and needs we are already moving towards a humanistic society even if that is not being achieved explicitly.

    No there would be rules, as Iíve explained in detail before we canít all rule the world but equally we canít all live in a mansion or own a super yacht etc. There have to be rules that allow people to do whatever they want but balance those wants against the wants of other people.

    Yes incest would be OK, so long as there was no coercion involved etc, if there were no children. If there were to be children then the happiness of the children would have to be considered and given that they would have a very high chance of genetic disorders that would be a strong negative.

    Youíre suggestion of my wife and another wanting to have sex isnít so farfetched, no itís never happened to me and I would be unhappy about it if it did, I believe we both meant it when we promised to be exclusive. I have, however, met people for whom such an arrangement has worked, where both partners were free to, and actively did, seek out other sexual partners. Itís not an approach that would suit everyone but if it works for them who am I to tell them they are not allowed to. I think the above answers your question about adultery. If you promise to be faithful then it will make the other person happy if you keep your word and it certainly helps to build trust etc which is important in human relationships but if you decide between you that sexual fidelity isnít for you then so long as it is a mutually agreed arrangement whatís wrong with it.

    I donít believe that lying is always bad, if a beaten women came to your door followed some minutes later by a very large and obviously angry man asking if you knew where she was I see nothing wrong with you lying to him. But on average, and baring such exceptional circumstances, lying is not something that would build a good solid trusting and happy society so it is a bad thing.

    I can see that you are not understanding what Humanism is, there are plenty of books on it and websites dedicated to it if youíd like to clear up your confusion. Selfishness wonít work because that does not produce the maximum amount of happiness for example.

    Iíve helped strangers at a cost to my family in the past so Iíd have no problems doing so, it would certainly increase the sum of human happiness so itís a strongly humanistic way to behave. Of course you have to weigh up the cost to your family, you wouldnít move into a tent and give your home to someone else just because it would make them happy for example so there are limits.

    Russell


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    Senior Member MissyB's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    PS can u keep ur responses short and concise, or split it up rather than turning it into a 20,000 word thesis.


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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Hi MissyB

    Yes Iím trying to say that ďreligion does not have humanismĒ as you put it. The ideas we get from religion is that god will tell you what is best for humans. Now from what Iíve see all religions Iíve examined so far were created by men (yes mostly men) mostly a long time ago so they were men who were ignorant of what our society would look like today. From that position they dictate how modern people living in a society they could not even imagine should live their lives. You end up with the ideas of men who think they know best telling everyone how to live and claiming that godís on their side but you get the same from so many contradictory angles that it has to be obvious that at least the vast majority are false yet people follow them with fervour often murderous fervour.

    Humanism on the other hand says that the best, actually the only, source for morality is humans living now. They are the only ones who know what our society looks like so they are the only ones who can respond to it and build a moral code that fits within it. We can listen to history and learn from it but history canít tell us whatís right today.

    I care if someone rapes my daughter or my wife. I care if someone rapes you or your children even though I donít know you. I would be happier to live in a society in which rape did not happen.

    Iíve asked this question before but no one can answer it. If god said that rape was good would it be so?

    The idea that rape is wrong, the idea that murder is wrong, the idea that steeling is wrong predate islam by thousands of years. Chances are it predates all religions as these ideas are obvious to any social animal. Even chimps and apes have been shown to hold these views though not in as deeply considered a form as we do.

    Atheism is to religion as bald is to hair colour. Sorry if you wish to paint atheism as a religion it means you have not yet understood what it is.

    Religion also says that we must not eat pork or shell fish, that we must not make clothes of mixed materials that we must stone our daughters to death if they are raped but refuse to marry their rapists. Do you really think that religion has good laws? We can do better!

    Iíve been told here that islam is sexist, that women are beneath men and the mans word can override hers. Is that fair? Why should a penis make a man more important than a woman in any way? Why can men marry two women while a woman cannot marry two men?

    Iíve seen the peace of allah, Iíve seen the 9/11 hijackers works, Iíve seen the suicide bombers of islam. Is this your idea of a peaceful society? I have never, would never and could never be a part of those sort of actions and remember I had nothing to do with the wrongs you claim the US has committed against your peoples. I did not choose it, I did not condone it I had nothing to do with it apart from being lucky enough to be born into a country who trades with the US and has a high standard of living. Unless you wish to condemn me for things beyond my control or choice then you canít condemn me for any of these things.

    Russell


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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Hi MissyB

    PS can u keep ur responses short and concise, or split it up rather than turning it into a 20,000 word thesis.
    Too messy to have an answer to this post and a separate post to answer that post, you loose the thread of what you are saying in that. If you want short answers only ask one question at a time.

    Russell


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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell View Post
    Hi MissyB

    Too messy to have an answer to this post and a separate post to answer that post, you loose the thread of what you are saying in that. If you want short answers only ask one question at a time.

    Russell
    I'm off will have a read through later


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    Senior Member Zahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell View Post
    Yes I’m trying to say that “religion does not have humanism” as you put it. The ideas we get from religion is that god will tell you what is best for humans. Now from what I’ve see all religions I’ve examined so far were created by men (yes mostly men) mostly a long time ago so they were men who were ignorant of what our society would look like today. From that position they dictate how modern people living in a society they could not even imagine should live their lives. You end up with the ideas of men who think they know best telling everyone how to live and claiming that god’s on their side but you get the same from so many contradictory angles that it has to be obvious that at least the vast majority are false yet people follow them with fervour often murderous fervour.
    Isn't that exactly what you are trying to do- deciding yourself and trying to impose your thoughts on us about how to live our life?

    If deducting God from faith makes someone atheist i.e. a righteous one, why there are differences among atheists? Buddhism is a renowned RELIGION based on atheism. Isn't it better to work on unifying all atheists under the banner of humanism instead of wasting your time here in endless arguments?
    To everyone of Sunniforum: Goodbye and thanks a lot for letting me participate so far.


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    Senior Member Zahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Mr. Russell, I don't get your "happiness" theory.

    I find happiness in drugs. What's wrong here? I don't care about my health. Why do my parents/relatives try to refrain me from it and make me unhappy? Aren't they doing wrong?

    Your opinion fails to make a specific conclusion. Happiness is a matter of relativity. Forbidding a criminal to give up crimes makes him unhappy. How do you make a specific rule satisfying every human being?
    To everyone of Sunniforum: Goodbye and thanks a lot for letting me participate so far.


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    Senior Member Zahed's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_sloth View Post
    I am an atheist. You cannot answer us. But it is cute that you try.
    We consider 1400 years more than enough time to prove your case. Time to call it a day.
    I am a Muslim. You cannot answer us. But it is cute that you try.
    We consider 1400+ years more than enough time to prove your case. Time to call it a day.
    To everyone of Sunniforum: Goodbye and thanks a lot for letting me participate so far.


  10. #70
    Senior Member MissyB's Avatar
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    Default Re: How to Answer an Atheist........

    Quote Originally Posted by dr_sloth View Post
    I am an atheist. You cannot answer us. But it is cute that you try.
    We consider 1400 years more than enough time to prove your case. Time to call it a day.
    It's not that we cannot answer u it's that ur deaf, dumb and blind to what anyone else has to say. I don't think u can put urself in anyone else's shoes and appreciate that they want to believe what they want to believe and try as u mite u can't stop them just as u can't be convinced either.

    U can tell God that saying 1400+ years wasn't enuf


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