EDITORIAL: "Danish Cartoons: Islam vs. Freedom of Expression?"

[Tommi]

don't be so foolish to form an oppinion based on news stories. theres more to life than the events that get shown on tv.

I think that he is pointing towards that in the west we are now perfectly used to stories showing thousands of Palastinians or Iranians chanting "Death to <insert western countrys name>"
This forms part of Friday prayers in some Mosques. It may not represent mainstream muslim veiws. Certainly in westernised Muslims it does not.

Can anyone on the Board point me to a TV report Newspaper article of Thousands of citizens, fired up by their churches or indeed anything else, chanting "Death to Syria" and storming a Muslim Embassy? For any reason?

(OK the SAS stormed the Iranian embassy in 1979, but that was because The Iranians had taken Hostages and threatened them with Death)

Western countries take statements like "America will be destroyed" and "London will burn with a fiery cross". Even when we are at war witha country, we will not mass and shout "Behead Muslims" or "Death to Afghanistan".
Any Mass demonstrations in the west are restricted to improving Human rights, slating the government or showing anti-war feelings.
Perhaps a worldwide mass demonstration organised by the Islamic Council could condem the thousands of Citizens carbombed/beheaded/kidnapped, etc etc? The political prisoners tortured and held in Arab Dictatorships?

My point here is not to Insult Muslims. It is to point out TV stories are spun in certain ways to be sure. But Embassys did Burn. Threats HAVE been made. Thousands chanting "Death to <Favorite kuffa country>" ARE regular events.
Compare that to the wests response.

[amatullah]

[QUOTE=Tommi]

Western countries take statements like "America will be destroyed" and "London will burn with a fiery cross". Even when we are at war witha country, we will not mass and shout "Behead Muslims" or "Death to Afghanistan".
QUOTE]

That's probably the difference...western superpowers not only threaten but they carry out their threats too...Iraq...Afghanistan...Guantanamo Bay...Abu Ghuraib prison...I gues that's supposed to be civilised coz the innocents are tortured behind closed doors...weird and tortured they are

[amatullah]

The western media don't show us the pictures of the poor girl whose body parts were dislocated because a she thought she entered a minefield while looking for food...

they don't show us the disfigured bodies of fathers, mothers, daughters and sons because of nuclear weapons that have been used on them...

they don't show us how they torture innocent Muslims with no charge against them (Their only crime being that they're Muslims)...

they don't tell you about the women being gang raped in prisons and elderly being kicked around by soldiers ...

they don't show us these things! The pictures that leaked out of abu ghuraib are just a tiny fraction of what goes on...

I'd say these things are as violent as ever...

[Tommi]

Im not an apologist for certain aspects of Western Policy. Some things i agree with. Some i dont.

I agree with Iraq, because I served there, I know who the terrorists are, who they kill, who we protect, what Saddam did.& what the Iraqi people think of the overthrowing of Saddam. The only reason we are still there is because of the Terrorists slaughtering innocent people. I'm sure that there will be a response of that the coalition are doing exactly that, but when a American soldier pulls the trigger on a car speeding towards him,after firing warning shots, he is trying to protect himself, his mates and the civilians around from a bomber. He is not thinking "Ahh i'll just slaughter a few dozen people today to further the political cause".
When the Terrorists stop then the 12 million voters of Iraq can have their taste of true freedom.

I Agree with what happened in Afghanistan. I never served there, but the Taliban were given a chance. They made a statement that they would protect AlQuada. They had the option. Now Muslims in the main there can live in freedom , mostly, from the Taliban.Most muslims agree that this is a good thing. Even Muslim nations did not accept their Government. Im sure a few extremists can be found to support their butchery though.

I Disagree with Guantanemo. The legal loopholing is not a good example from the self proclaimed leader of free speech and Justice. The prisoners should have their Trial and be incarcerated in special prisons if Guilty. Released if innocent. The torture there is unacceptable. Thats why the responsible Gaurds are now in jail or on trial. It's not state policy to torture. Although Sleep deprevation and other techniques such as playing loud western music 24 hours a day is i beleive common practice. This should stop.
So should the Electrodes, beatings,burning,acid baths,and gouging out of eyes in Arab State Jails of political prisoners. Perhaps the Ummah can protest against this too? Ahh nope they cant. The respective Governments would slaughter them in the streets and add them to the torture chambers.

The little girl who was blown apart by a mine. I would ask who planted the mine? Mines are not used by the west. They are banned. Western agencys and Armys clear and destroy mines that Muslim regimes have planted.

Nukes? Evryone is familiar with Images of Nuclear weapons effects from WW2. But I assume you mean the Depleted Uranium rounds used by some tanks in the two Gulf Wars. D.U rounds are not nuclear.If they were then the world would have ended already. Perhaps its a language barrier thing, but that can be taken as just needless inflammitory phrases. They do appear to have some health effects. The pictures of which I have seen. Depleted uranium may be a effective Antitank round but, in my opinion it should be banned because of the UNINTENDED side effects caused by the vaporised dust.

The gang rapes and old lady kicking I would appreciate some links to articles where i can see this. Western troops doing this would be court martialed instantly. I got a utter beasting (yelling at and threatened) by my Staff Sergant for dressing up in Arab Headress and dancing as a joke. It was apparently derogatory to muslims and so I was diciplined. The US Army is the same.
Please show me some evidence of this.

Having said all of the above, I would return to the point. What Western GOVERNMENTS do and what western Citizens do are two different things. Western Citizens protest in their hundreds of thousands to save Foxes from being hunted or to rage against war or poverty in Africa. We NEVER gather to demand the Death of Muslims. I cant recall a bunch of Baptists Jehovas witnesses or Anglicans driving a truck full of High Explosive into a Muslim Market either screaming "Jesus is Brilliant!". Or Gunning down a thousand Muslim Kids in a school. Etc Etc,,,you get the idea.

Just to clarify my political standing by the way. I voted for Tony Blair, will vote for him again, and George Bush is a Idiot.

[azba]

tooo ryt George Bush is an Idiot lol

[iqadeer]

Iraq did not pose the western world, especially the U.S. an immediate threat. We now know that the reasons for going into Iraq were a pile of lies. How many times do we have to go over this argument? As far as Afghanistan's involvement in 911, I seriously doubt that Al-Qaida possessed the ability to infiltrate the U.S. so easily and engineer such a remarkable terrorist feat. There has to be collusion. I recently saw another video, which you may disregard as another attempt to discredit Bush, which clearly shows the flaws in the official explanations given about the attacks on WTC and Pentagon and the subsequent collapse of the towers. The video is full of scientific data and provides ample evidence that there were other forces at work behind these attacks. I believe somebody has already posted the video on the internet. I will try to find the link and post it some time. As far as abuses commited by both British and American troops go, they have been well-documented and proven by Western sources and hence undeniable. These abuses were kept secret until somebody decided to blow the whistle. How would it be possible for us to even say that these are isolated cases? There must be dozens or even hundreds of abuse cases that may have gone unreported. I personally don't care about Blair or Bush. To me they're birds of a feather. You may include the Italian Prime Minister, previous Spanish government, and Australian Prime Minister as well. They all colluded with Bush in supporting this war and are equally culpable.

[eTeacher]

DANISH LAW

the following from: http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/0086.shtml

"The implementation of the laws follows the same "principled" approach. Thus, Denmark has laws regarding blasphemy as well as racism. Both of these laws have been violated in the current case, the assertion of the newspaper that it broke no laws, notwithstanding. Section 266b of the Danish Criminal Code provides:

Any person who, publicly or with the intention of wider dissemination, makes a statement or imparts other information by which a group of people are threatened, insulted or degraded on account of their race, colour, national or ethnic origin, religion, or sexual inclination shall be liable to a fine or to imprisonment for any term not exceeding 2 years.
And its section 140, which deals with blasphemy, reads:

Those who publicly mock or insult the doctrines or worship of any religious community that is legal in this country, will be punished by a fine or incarceration for up to 4 month.

Similarly section 142 of the Norwegian Penal Code provides for punishment for any person "who publicly insults or in an offensive manner shows contempt for any religious creed...or for the doctrines or worship of any religious community lawfully existing here."

That these laws provided no protection to the Muslims, highlights the fact that despite their sizable populations, the Muslims carry no political weight in the European democracies.

Hence the importance of the economic boycott started by the grassroots in the Muslim countries.

The expressed worry of the pundits in Europe is that the Muslim do not understand their societies; their real worry is that the Muslims have begun to understand how these societies really work. The Muslims are realizing that if they want to get any rights and respect there, they will have to show their weight. The boycott of products from offending countries is a result of that realization and it is exactly the kind of step that, if continued patiently, can help Europe deal with its arrogance and Islamophobia. Europe could then see that dealing with Muslims with respect is a good policy. And in a land where honesty is the best policy (not principle but policy), that is the best one can hope for.

[Tommi]

Iraq did not pose the western world, especially the U.S. an immediate threat. We now know that the reasons for going into Iraq were a pile of lies. How many times do we have to go over this argument? .

We could indeed go over the arguement ad-infinitum. You beleive the conspiracy theorys, which you are entitled to. Al-quada dosnt beleive them. They admitted the ruddy thing! Watch a few of their videos. Actually ,no , dont.


I'm very willing to continue this Western forign policy thing in another thread. However a challange issued at the Muslims is: Whenever a charge is leveled against them, it is responded to by "Look at what the west has done,Its the wests fault."

Just for a moment lets assume that your talking to a Liberal and I agree with the Satanic West being responsible for unprovoked aggression and deliberate civilian killing in a mad pursuit for oil to feed the insatiable Neo-conservative Yankee capitalist military-zionist dominance machine.

That taken as read. Can you address this?
What Western GOVERNMENTS do and what western Citizens do are two different things. Western Citizens protest in their hundreds of thousands to save Foxes from being hunted or to rage against war or poverty in Africa. We NEVER gather to demand the Death of Muslims. I cant recall a bunch of Baptists Jehovas witnesses or Anglicans driving a truck full of High Explosive into a Muslim Market either screaming "Jesus is Brilliant!". Or Gunning down a thousand Muslim Kids in a school. Etc Etc,,,you get the idea.

[amatullah]

Abu Ghraib Prison Attacked In Response To “Fatima’s Letter”
Dec 21, 2004
By Khadija Abdul Qahaar, JUS And Muhammad Abu Nasr, Free Arab Voice

At approximately 12:25pm on Saturday, resistance fighters waged an unprecedented assault on the Abu Ghraib prison camp south of Baghdad. The assault was sparked by a letter from a female prisoner named Fatima that fueled some Muslim fighters into action.

Fatima’s letter, a hand written document, was recently smuggled out of Abu Ghraib. Fatima is the sister of one of the celebrated Resistance fighters in the area. US occupation forces raided his house some time back but failed to find him, so they took his sister prisoner in an attempt to force him to give himself up. JUS reported the incident at the time and it was said that this family is known for their piety and uprightness.

Here is Fatima’s letter as originally published in Arabic by Mafkarat al-Islam and translated to English by Muhammad Abu Nasr of Free Arab Voice

Fatima’s Letter

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Mercy-giving. “Say He is God the One; God the Source [of everything]; Not has He fathered, nor has He been fathered; nor is anything comparable to Him.” [Qur’an, Surat 112 “al-Ikhlas”]

I chose this noble Surah from the Book of God because it has the greatest impact on me and on all of you and it strikes a particular kind of awe in the hearts of Believers.

My brother Mujahideen in the path of God! What can I say to you? I say to you: our wombs have been filled with the children of fornication by those sons of apes and pigs who raped us. Or I could tell you that they have defaced our bodies, spit in our faces, and tore up the little copies of the Qur’an that hung around our necks? God is greatest! Can you not comprehend our situation? Is it true that you do not know what is happening to us? We are your sisters. God will be calling you to account [about this] tomorrow.

By God, we have not passed one night since we have been in prison without one of the apes and pigs jumping down upon us to rip our bodies apart with his overweening lust. And we are the ones who had guarded our virginity out of fear of God. Fear God! Kill us along with them! Destroy us along with them! Don’t leave us here to let them get pleasure from raping us! It will be an act to ennoble the Throne of Almighty God. Fear God regarding us! Leave their tanks and aircraft outside. Come at us here in the prison of Abu Ghurayb.

I am your sister in God (Fatimah). They raped me on one day more than nine times. Can you comprehend? Imagine one of your sisters being raped. Why can’t you all imagine it, as I am your sister. With me are 13 girls, all unmarried. All have been raped before the eyes and ears of everyone.

They won’t let us pray. They took our clothes and won’t let us get dressed. As I write this letter one of the girls has committed suicide. She was savagely raped. A soldier hit her on her chest and thigh after raping her. He subjected her to unbelievable torture. She beat her head against the wall of the cell until she died, for she couldn’t take any more, even though suicide is forbidden in Islam. But I excuse that girl. I have hope that God will forgive her, because He is the Most Merciful of all.

Brothers, I tell you again, fear God! Kill us with them so that we might be at peace. Help! Help! Help! [Wa Mu'atasima!]

Subsequently, approximately 100 resistance fighters launched a fierce attack on the prison, forcing US troops to take cover inside their barracks within the compound. Fighters pounded the Americans with barrages of 82mm and 120mm mortar rounds. Large crowds of people gathered outside, fearful that the bombardment might harm the prisoners but they were assured by the fighters that they knew the layout of the prison camp very well.

Mafkarat al-Islam’s correspondent in Baghdad reported that the fighters succeeded in destroying part of the walls of the prison camp, blasting a hole four meters long in the inner and outer fences that encircled the camp.

The fate of Fatima and the other woman with her is unknown.

__________________________________________________ __________
Effects of U.S. Nuclear Weapons in Iraq

They added the incursion and houses storming as usually coupled with the whizzing live bullets and light flames and the firing of tear gas canister besides holding tens of the residents either women, elderly and children , as they have liable to a violent beating with the baton and abuts of their rifles not to mention forcing some of the residents to strip off their clothes . gross damages were also caused to several houses...

Dossier on Civilian Victims of United States Aerial Bombing of Afghanistan

How easily we have come to take the bombs and the deaths in Iraq for granted, Robert Fisk

Secrets of the morgue: Baghdad's body count, Robert Fisk

The Israeli Genocide in Palestine, March 29 - April 18, 2002

[iqadeer]

I cant recall a bunch of Baptists Jehovas witnesses or Anglicans driving a truck full of High Explosive into a Muslim Market either screaming "Jesus is Brilliant!". Or Gunning down a thousand Muslim Kids in a school. Etc Etc,,,you get the idea.

They don't have to when the Evangelicals are openly espousing pro-zionist positions in the U.S. Discovery Times recently aired a very revealing documentary about the "Rapture" and how millions of Evangelical Christians are faithfully voting to keep madmen like Bush in power by influencing the foriegn policy of this country. You speak of radical Islam but its only a symptom of a larger issue spawned by Western Imperialism. The Palestinian issue which birthed the modern day phenomenon of suicide bombings was created by your friends, the British. Whose idea is to impose collective punishments on a broad range of population because of a few? Why did U.S. had to destroy the entire city of Fallujah and kill hundreds of innocent civilians because a few U.S. contractors were killed? Better check your own hands for blood before pointing fingers at us.