Imkan Kadhib

[Muawiyah]

Isn't the idea that "Allah Ta'ala does not have the power to lie" similar to the shi'ite/mu'tazili belief that some things are waajib on Allah?

[Saeed Mazhar]

Isn't the idea that "Allah Ta'ala does not have the power to lie" similar to the shi'ite/mu'tazili belief that some things are waajib on Allah?

This was already mentioned in Shaykh Haddad's text that I quoted, if you chose to read, that is.

And in [al-Jurjānīs 2,300-page] Sharh al-Mawāqif: "Lying is precluded from Him by agreement [of both Sunnīs and Mutazilīs].... for three reasons according to us [Sunnīs], the first being that lying is a defect and any defect is absolutely impossible for Allāh by Consensus." ...

I dont know if its similar or not.
Consult a scholar.

[A D I D A S]

As I mentioned earlier, the allegation is "Allah can speak a lie", not "He spoke a lie". Moreover, the clarification does not deny that such a quote exists on pg. 19. It surely does. Again, I dont know the scholars position on all these "Imkaans". Is it correct aqida to believe that it is possible that Allah can do the most non-sensical of things but wont do it with His Free Will?

I think we shouldn't indulge into theology, and leave this to the scholars.
wAllah Alam.


wassalam.

Ofcourse it isnt the correct aqida. Allah is free from all these things.

[A D I D A S]

1) Is this question valid in the first place? If Allah is all perfect, how can we denote even the possibility of something imperfect to Him?

Matter of using some common sense.
ALLAH IS PERFECT.

2) Why only 'imkane kidhb' (possibility of lying)? Why move into the specifics? The general question would be : Can Allah do something that denotes imperfection or defect ? This logic leads us to absurd questions like, can Allah have kids? can Allah have a mate, etc.

Again matter of using common sense but I will still answer for you ia.
No Allah can not do anything that denotes imperfections.

3) IF it is possible for Allah to lie, then how do we know that everything that He says or does is not a perfect lie ? He is All Wise, He has the power to do all things, He is the best of planners ... and may Allah (SWT) forgive me for saying this, if 'He can lie' and has all those attributes, then the whole Quran, and everything in this world 'may be' a big lie, and we haven't been given the capability to figure it out no matter how hard we try

Allah is haqq. As he mentions time and time again in the quran.
Like Allah is hayy (alive) he cant be the opposite i.e dead.
In the same way Allah is haqq.

4) Isn't Al-Haqq one of the attributes of Allah ? Various meanings: The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.

yES IT IS ONE OF THE ATTRIBUTES OF ALLAH. And he is haqq. No imkan of kidhb.

My heart inclines towards what Shaykh Haddad quoted.

Check people out properly before believing what they believe. Now I dont want bashing here. I dont know jack about s haddad. I am just saying it generally.

More importantly tell me this: If I do not believe in all these 'imkaans', does that put me under the category of disbelief, cuz my understanding says "wa huwa `alaa kulli shay'in qadeer" excludes imperfections, as the 'consensus' says? I hope this does not constitue denial of a Qur'anic verse.

I dont think so.

YaAllah, I love you.
Forgive me if I uttered any nonsense ...

ME TOO.


wassalam.

[Saeed Mazhar]

AsSalam o Alaikum

You start with a [ QUOTE] and end it with a slash [ /QUOTE] *widout the space after the bracket*

Check people out properly before believing what they believe. Now I dont want bashing here. I dont know jack about s haddad. I am just saying it generally.

Sincere advice, Alhamdulillah. Practicing on it for quite a number of years now.
JazakAllah. Shaykh Haddad's interview can be found at:
Gibril Fouad Haddad

His various writings can be found at:
Texts by GF Haddad


wassalam.

[A D I D A S]

Uh lmho jzk for the quote thngy. UH. wut can I say.
Btw jzk for the link but I dont want to look into it. Jzk anyway.

[Muawiyah]

Some comments on all of what has been said in this issue:

1) For us (the ahl us-sunnah) imkan khalf al-wa'eed necessitates imkan al-kazib because we believe that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala knows ALL that will happen, in contrast to some of the mu'tazilah & the shi'a, the believers in bada. If you know what you will do in the future, acting contrary to a promise is not possible without lying.

2) The whole idea of some mantaqi, with a limited brain declaring some things to be Waajib for his Creator is ridiculous. Our Imam Abu Hanifah Rahimahullaahu Ta'ala forbade people from making tawassul "biHaqqi Fulan" because it would apparently be similar to the statement of the mu'tazilah who believed that some things like doing justice, rewarding the pious and doing what is better for the makhlooq are waajib on Allah and that it is a right of the pious that they be rewarded and Allah cannot do otherwise. As it has been noted in Radd al-Mukhtar:

(قوله لأنه لا حق للخلق على الخالق) قد يقال: إنه لا حقَّ لهم وجوباً على اللّه تعالى لكن اللّه سبحانه جعل لهم حقاً من فضله (64) (كذلك حقّاً علينا ننج المؤمنين) - رد المختار على الدر المختار بحوالہ تخفہ خیر خواہی

(And his saying ... and because there is no right of the makhlooq over the Khaaliq). Allamah Ibn 'Aabideen says: They have no rights that Allah Ta'ala has to fulfill (wujuban) but Allah has has alloted them a right out of His Graciousness.

The matter of making truth waajib upon Allah is the same as making 'adl waajib on Him.

3) The `aqali imkaan of lying does not in any way mean that we should have doubts in the words of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, any more than the 'aqali imkaan of dhulm means we should have doubts in Allah Ta'ala's 'adl. In fact these imkaanaat are present in every part of the religion but we do not care for them, for example:

a) There is no shari'i possibility of the Mutawaatir ahadeeth being false, if someone denies a masilah proven clearly from mutawaatir ahadeeth, we make takfeer on him. According to the Shari'ah, when numerous truthful narrators narrate a hadeeth, it is impossible for that hadeeth to be false but the 'aqali possibility of all of them being mistaken is still there. However there is no room for doubt despite the `aqali imkaan.

b) A person doubting someone's paternity based on the 'aqali imkaan will be charged for qazaf (slanderous accusation) and flogged 80 lashes.


4)

ومن أصدق من الله قيل

does not prove that Lying is not in Allah Ta'ala's power any more than:

(ان الله لا يظلم مثقال ذرة - النساء آية ٤٠)

proves that dhulm is not within the power of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Rather they only prove that Allah Ta'ala does not lie and does not do dhulm. We know form the Hadeeth qudsi:

يا عبادي اني حرمت الظلم على نفسي...

that dhulm is within the power of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and he has made it haraam upon Himself.

Now some historical facts:

1 - The terms used in the discussion of the issue were not "fangled" by Hadhrat Maulana Gangohi Rahimahullahu Ta'ala. These were the terms in which the issue was being discussed since the time of the public debates between Hadhrat Shah Isma'eel shaheed and Maulana Fadhl-e-Haq Khayrabadi Rahimahumullah nearly fifty years before Hadhrat Gangohi's time. And it wasn't Shah Isma'eel who fangled them either, it was the mantaqi faction which brought such types of questions to him.

2 - Non-subcontinental people don't know the extent to which these issues polarised the Muslims. In the biography of Shah Muhammad Ishaaq muhaddith Dehlavi rahimahullah it's written with reference to Tuhfat ul Muslimeen:

He (Maulvi Fadhl-e-Rasool Badayuni "al-Badaywani") used to annoy him (Maulvi Sa'ad ud-Deen Badayuni student of Shah Ishaaq rahimahullah) a lot, to the extent that he once stopped the saqqa (water bearer) and the bhangi (a man who emptied chamber pots) from coming to his house.

From the same book:
Maulana Fadhl-e-Rasool Badayuni wrote a pamphlet titled "Tasheeh ul-Masail" (in refutation of a book attributed to Hadhrat Shah Ishaaq rahimahullah), in refutation Maulvi Basheer ud-Deen Qinnauji wrote "Tafheem ul-Masail" in reply to which Maulvi Faidh Ahmad Badayuni (Fadhl-e-Rasool's nephew) wrote "Ta'leem ul-Jaahil" in reply to which Maulana Qinnauji wrote "Afhaam ul-Ghaafil"'

In Hikaayaat ul-Awliyaa it is narrated from Ameer Shah Khan sahib Khorjoi that the poet Shaheedi wrote a qaseedah one of the verses of which was:

ہوا تجھ سا نہ ہو*سکتا ہے میرا ہے یہی ایمان - نہ مانو مسئلہ ہرگز کسی زندیق و*مرتد کا

To which Hafidh Abd ur-Rahmaan replied with:

ترا ثانی بامکان وقوعی ہو نہیں سکتا - نفی امکان*ِ مطلق کی مگر ہے قول مرتد کا

These incidents are all pre-deoband. When you have poets making takfeer, calling each other zindeeq and murtadd based on their dubious understandings of the issue and when you have one party constantly misrepresenting the other to the `awaam then a *Fatawa destined for public usage by the general public* is where this masilah belongs. It would be a lapse for a Mufti to not give his guidance in the issue.

3 - If Hadhrat Shaykh ul-hind Maulana Mahmood ul-Hasan deobandi rahimahullah said that qabaih (doing dhulm, doing contrary to a promise etc.) are within the power of Allah Ta'ala, he must have said it in refutation of those who held the the qabaih are NOT within the power of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. There is such a thing as context.

[UmmIbrahimIsa]

AsSalam o Alaikum

You start with a [ QUOTE] and end it with a slash [ /QUOTE] *widout the space after the bracket*
wassalam.

assalamu alaikum wr wb

its been fixed.... i dont think it was realized....

[salman]

Sallamu Alaikum

Jazakallah to Sidi Muawiyah for the great reply. I agree with him on most points and would like to add a bit more, Insha'Allah.

Allah is All Powerful. We must note when having this discussion that He Most High is not bound by Universal LAws or principles. Whoever objects to the fact that Allah cannot do such and such has limited Him and has probably commited disbelief, Wallahu A'lam. This point was mentioned by Akhi Muawiya aswell. The belief that Allah is bound by what He has obliged is a Mutazillite belief and a Shia belief where they maintain Allah cannot go contrary to what He has stated.

A similar analysis can be taken for the case of Allah granting a Mumin paradise. According to the Ashari Aqida, Allah is not bound to reward or Punish anyone, although He will. This is easily summed up in Imam Al Haramayns Kitab Al Irshad Ila Qawati Al Adilla Fi Usil Al Itiqad where he states:

-- "..there exists no obligation on God (for Rewarding or punishing). The Mutazzilites maintain that reward is obligatory on God..."

He also states (in more detail):

-- "Similarly, with a person who is highly respected within His family, if he is generous with his son and provides all his needs, and the son honors him, respects him and seeks his approval and strvies to earn it, therefore, that person is not owed in regard for his assistance anymore then he has already obtained from the beneficence that has accrued to his credit.

If then this is the situation with a person who provides services to another like himself, a servant who tried to compare his own acts of service with Gods bounteous generosity to him in any single instance would find the beneficence of God completely acquitted and fulfilled in regard to any of his own good deeds.

[...]

How could the servant, who is already immensed in the favors bestowed by God, be owed additional rewards for the small trifling deeds that are not already the result of Gods overwhelming genersity?"

Simple knowledge of the English language dictates that "Allah doesnot have to send a Mumin to Paradise" does not automatically render Paradise forbidden to a Mumin and nor does it say that Allah Will do this. The only thing it does express, however, is that it is within Allahs power to act contrary to what he has stated.

As for Fatwa Rashidiyya, Maulana Gangohi has clarified this issue very clearly. On page 234 he states in reply to the question of believing Allah can lie (i am taking bits):

-- Jo Shaks Haq Ta'ala ki Nisbat ye Aqida Rakhai ya Zabaan sei Kahai ke woh Qadhab Bolta hai woh Qatan Kafir hai

"Whichever individual holds the Aqida or states that Allah can tell a lie is a Kafir.."

The word "Qatan" signifies "without doubt" as any Urdu speaker would know. Therefore, there will be no doubt in His Kuffar, it will be clear.

Further Maulana Gangohi states:

-- Aur Mukhalif Qur'an aur Hadith ka aur Ijma Ummat ka hai aur Har Giz Mumin nahi

.."And (he is) opposed to the Qur'an, Sunnah and the Ijma of the Ummah and is not a Mumin under any condition.."

The word Har Giz signifies that he is stressing the fact that he is not a Mumin.

Further, he gives the example that i cited above regarding Allah having the Capacity and Power to do anything regarding sending people to Paradise and hell. Maulana Gangohi talking about Abu Jahl and Co and them going to hell states:

-- Woh Hukm Qati hai is ke Khilaf Har Giz Har Giz na Karega

And here he states that Allah will not go against His promise. He uses the wording Har Giz twice, back to back, thus showing the great amount of stress he is putting onto this statement.

In the End he states:

-- Ya Aqida Tamam Ulema Ummat ka hai

"..This is the Aqida of Most (or All) of the Ulema.."

And he cites Imam Baydawi for his evidence.

Wallahu A'lam

[Hijazi]

Isn't the idea that "Allah Ta'ala does not have the power to lie" similar to the shi'ite/mu'tazili belief that some things are waajib on Allah?

Nice trick to label Ahle Sunnah as shi'ite/mu'tazila, but it won't work. We do not say Allah ta'ala is unable in the sense of inabillity. We say that lying or power to lie is not applicable to his being (Zaat).

Rasheed Ahmed Gangohi said in his book:
Photocopy of original Fatwa:
Ahmed Gangohi.JPG
Fatawa-e-Rasheedia, vol. 1 pg. 20, lines 11,12,14 and 15 (published: Kutub Khana Raheemia, Delhi - Press: Jayyad Barqi Press, Delhi)

"The meaning of the possibility of (Allah) lying is that it is within the power of Allah to lie, meaning that whatever punishment has been promised (for the Kuffaar or sinners) by Allah, He has the Power to do the opposite to that even if He does not do it. Possibility does not necessarily mean occurance, but that it can occur ... . So the beliefs of all the Scholars, Sufis and Ulema of Islam is that lies are within the Power of Allah. (Allah can lie)."

This absurdity is not limited to this particular person.

It is also endorsed by Khalil Ahmed Ambethwi in his book.
Photocopy of original Fatwa:
Fatwa Ahmed Ambethwi - Allah can Lie.JPG
In his book: Baraheen-e-Qatiah, pg. 278, lines 13, 14

"This is the meaning of Imkaan-e-Kizb (Possibility of telling a lie) that Allah ta'ala has the power of telling lies but this will not happen."


Reply from Ahle Sunnah (genuine ahle sunnah...)

The entire Ummah is unanimous in its decision that lies and falsehood are extremely despicable attributes. They have considered it to a personal defect. Lies is a defect which is not worthy of the being (zaat) of Allah ta'ala and is totally Muhaal (Impossible) for Allah ta'ala. Allah azza wajal is free from all shortages and defects thus making lies Muhaal for Allah Paak. But there are certain deobandis who insist that Allah ta'ala has the power to speak a lie. Not only this, but that He can also reveal lies to His prophets and Angels! Allah forbid!

In their twisted logic, they have put forward the proof that when man has the power to speak lies, why does Allah Ta'ala not possess the same power. If Allah ta'ala did not possess this power, then He would be les powerful than man. Therefore, the say, we have to accept that Allah ta'ala can speak a lie! These certain Deobandis in their twisted logic have not only attributed a defect for Allah ta'ala, but also deliberately contradicted the unanimous decision of the Ummah, is apparent from both the books. We should remember that lies and falsehood are defects and that Allah ta'ala is pure of all defects. These defects are impossible for Allah Paak, but are possible for man. - Exposing the Tableeghi/Deobandi/Wahabi Sect, Publisher: Sunni World, P.O. Box 48928 QUALBERT 4078 DURBAN SOUTH AFRICA