Maulana Ashraf 'Ali Thanvi's Fatwa on the Hadra

[faqir_baba]

I have so much love and respect for Hazrat Thanwi (rah). When his tazkarah comes up, I feel sooo happy, i cannot explain this. May Allah Ta'ala make me walk on his footsteps.

[Saleel]

The fatwa by Maulana Thanwi (ra) seems to address the issue of loud vs. silent dhikr. There are Deobandi Ulema today who take part in gatherings of loud dhikr (although maintaining silent is preferable).

However, there isn't any mention (at least in the answer) of the rhythmical swaying/movements most of us associate with hadrah... I thought that was going to be the point of the fatwa?

[Sadiq]

JazakAllah for this beautiful translation, dear sidi salman.

How beautiful are the words of the doctor of the ummah? It is so amazing. I was reading the book; shariah tariqah, and how Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi was saying, 'circumstances are not our objectives', (my explanation to his maxim) meaning we wish to get closer to Allah, so if someone comes to your life, or you get an increase of books, situation, difficulty, etc, but then it goes, the feelings goes, or that high state of rectiation, spiritual booost, goes, we should not despair.

As our objectives and objective is to get closer to Allah, and our objective is not our circumstance, (dua, books, etc). When we have reached our 'objective', we are not in need of that circumstance. When we have been raised, or our awareness of Allah, closeness of Allah has increased, we have gained a higher platform, As someone asked him the question about 'loosing that feeling' and 'is it a sign of losing in the path, or reforming, when the feeling goes' ... rather, that is not our objective, that is our circumstance.

When we have reached a maqam, a station, we are not in need of that 'difficulty' or circumstance, so when it goes or when it changes, its not that our feelings are gone, or we are losing, its becoming installed in our hearts, life, and we await a different circumstance.

I have put so much words to it, but he replied to his mureed is such few words, and its so beautiful, his thinking...

Were are they of today?

[salman]

The fatwa by Maulana Thanwi (ra) seems to address the issue of loud vs. silent dhikr. There are Deobandi Ulema today who take part in gatherings of loud dhikr (although maintaining silent is preferable).

However, there isn't any mention (at least in the answer) of the rhythmical swaying/movements most of us associate with hadrah... I thought that was going to be the point of the fatwa?

Salamu 'alaykum

There are two issues at hand:

[1] Loud Vs Silent
[2] Kayf (modality)

Modality is a topic that comes after jahri vs khafi. This is why Maulana mentions that one can do loud dhikr "standing, sitting, in a circle, in a line, and ALL other ways (har taur sei)." And by principle "All" will include rythmical swaying and movements.

As Maulana states:

"Thus, it is proven that loud dhikr is permitted in all its forms and no one should forbid anyone from any modality. "

Therefore, he is speaking of not only dhikr jahri itself, but the way it is done. The hadra is one such way.

Wasalam

[salman]

Also please see:

Mufti Desa'i: Swaying

Here we see no condemnation of such an act or any mention of karaha even though the saalik is "swaying in a complete circle" which is way more then what happens in a hadra! Rather, this is like a whilring derwish, whereas the hadra is merely back and forth movements.

Wasalam

[Saleel]

And by principle "All" will include rythmical swaying and movements.

That's flawed logic... by your principle, this fatwa could justify dhikr in any modality, even if it was plainly impermissible for all to see.

I can't help but think the fatwa is being used above to justify something it wasn't meant to be, as, like I mentioned, there is no mention specific of the rythmical swaying and movements. Maulana Thanwi (ra) could have specifically mentioned it in the fatwa if he wanted to... instead it just reads "or by gathering in circles, or standing in lines, or any other modality of standing and sitting".

Re: Mufti Ebrahim Desai... we can read elsewhere:

14. Is it permissible to condemn innovations such as dancing which devious people have tried to introduce into Tasawwuf?

14. It is permissible to condemn every action and group that goes contrary to the Shari’ah. A great Sufi, Imaam Abu Abdillah ibn al-Toobi al-Saqaly (rah) has said, ‘Sufism is not wearing patched clothing and not by crying when singers sing and not by screaming and not by dancing. In fact, Sufism is that you follow the Haqq and Qur’aan. You must have fear for Allah, full of remorse for you sins at all times.’

[salman]

That's flawed logic... by your principle, this fatwa could justify dhikr in any modality, even if it was plainly impermissible for all to see.

I can't help but think the fatwa is being used above to justify something it wasn't meant to be, as, like I mentioned, there is no mention specific of the rythmical swaying and movements. Maulana Thanwi (ra) could have specifically mentioned it in the fatwa if he wanted to... instead it just reads "or by gathering in circles, or standing in lines, or any other modality of standing and sitting".

Re: Mufti Ebrahim Desai... we can read elsewhere:

14. Is it permissible to condemn innovations such as dancing which devious people have tried to introduce into Tasawwuf?

14. It is permissible to condemn every action and group that goes contrary to the Shari’ah. A great Sufi, Imaam Abu Abdillah ibn al-Toobi al-Saqaly (rah) has said, ‘Sufism is not wearing patched clothing and not by crying when singers sing and not by screaming and not by dancing. In fact, Sufism is that you follow the Haqq and Qur’aan. You must have fear for Allah, full of remorse for you sins at all times.’

Salamu 'Alaykum

The logic is not flawed.

Rather, by default what is expected is "all" to refer to "all forms that are permitted". This is a given. If a person began doing loud dhikr while beating himself, is this impermissible? Yes. Why? Because beating onesself is considered haram as per agreement of the fuqaha.

Another thing one must notice is the difference between:

(a) Dancing
(b) Swaying

In terms of fiqh, swayings does not mean dancing, and Mufti Ebrahim personally confirmed this to me in a follow up question to the one you posted above. Thus, the answer you posed in not applicable here.

Further, swaying is common among the madaris. Have you ever seen students reciting the quran and violently moving back and forth? Im sure you have. This is no different then a hadra - which btw is even done sitting down in the same manner!

Lastly, what the saalik was doing in the question posed was precisely "swaying" and not "dancing". Dancing is prohibited by the Ahnaaf, but the Ulema did not categorize movement of the limbs in such a fashion to come under the definition of "dancing". This is why Mufti Desa'i said it is permitted.

This is also why Maulana said all forms are permitted, and ofcourse by this we mean all forms not condemned by the Shari'a - such as dancing of effeminate men which is -. Itis a far cry from what is done in the hadra.

The words of Maulana are as clear as the moon on the 14th of a cloudless night.

Wasalam

[faqir]

That's flawed logic... by your principle, this fatwa could justify dhikr in any modality, even if it was plainly impermissible for all to see.

I can't help but think the fatwa is being used above to justify something it wasn't meant to be, as, like I mentioned, there is no mention specific of the rythmical swaying and movements. Maulana Thanwi (ra) could have specifically mentioned it in the fatwa if he wanted to... instead it just reads "or by gathering in circles, or standing in lines, or any other modality of standing and sitting".

Sidi Saleel, its good to see you here again bro!

Surely you do not consider the Hadra of the Shadhilis, for example, to be "plainly impermissible for all to see" ?

Is there any specific condemnation of the Hadra from the deobandi ulema because the phrase you quoted from Salman's translation although perhaps not totally explicit does at the very least seem to me to imply that Maulana Thanwi would not object to it.

And Allah knows best

[tazkiyyah]

I'm in shock.
It seems the deobandis r really rather sufi

[tazkiyyah]

They have been giving these books by mawlana yusuf ludhyanwi to ppl
but in actual fact the reality is in urdu there are hardcore sufi things.

Maybe its intentionally hidden so the wahhabis dont attack