51:47 Hands? Did Ibn Kathir make ta'wil in his tafsir of the ayah?

[Musleemah]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem


Allah سبحانه وتعالى said

{وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ} (47) سورة الذاريات

(51:47)

Some have said that Ibn Kathir has made ta'weel in his tafseer of this ayah, so let us study the word (أيد - Ayd) in this ayah to see if that is correct or not.

أيد
has 2 meanings in the Arabic language
1-Plural for the word hand (yad)
2- (power, strength),

look here in "Lisan al-Arab" :

( أيد ) الأَيْدُ والآدُ جميعاً القوة ... وقوله عز وجل (واذكر عبدنا داود ذا الأَيْد) أَي ذا القوة قال الزجاج كانت قوّته على العبادة أَتم قوة كان يصوم يوماً ويفطر يوماً وذلك أَشدّ الصوم وكان يصلي نصف الليل وقيل أَيْدُه قوّته على إِلانةِ الحديد بإِذن الله

Translation: Ayd - al-Aydu and Al-Aadu all (mean) power/strength... and Allah's saying: ({اصْبِرْ عَلَى مَا يَقُولُونَ وَاذْكُرْ عَبْدَنَا دَاوُودَ ذَا الْأَيْدِ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ} (17) سورة ص) (Translation of Ayah = Be patient (O Muhammad SAW) of what they say, and remember Our slave Dâwûd (David), endued with Al-Ayd. Verily, he was ever oft-returning in all matters and in repentance (toward Allâh)38:17.)
Al-Zajaj said: His strength in worship was the most complete strength, he fasted one day and ate one day (fasted day after day) and that is the toughest fasting, and he prayed half of the night; and it was said that "Ayduh" his power was in softening iron with the will of Allah سبحانه.
(excuse my bad translation)
----

Also there is another ayah that mentions (Al-Ayd) which means power:
{وَاذْكُرْ عِبَادَنَا إبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ أُوْلِي الْأَيْدِي وَالْأَبْصَارِ} (45) سورة ص
And remember Our slaves, Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ishâque (Isaac), and Ya'qûb (Jacob), (all) owners of [Al-ayd] strength (in worshipping Us) and (also) of religious understanding. (38-45)


Now someone might say... well what is your proof that (Ayd) in the ayah means (power/strength) and not hands?

My answer is what Ibn Khuzayma rahimahu Allah said in his book (At-Tawheed):

التوحيد لابن خزيمة - (ج 1 / ص 129)
وزعم بعض الجهمية : أن معنى قوله : « خلق الله آدم بيديه » أي بقوته ، فزعم أن اليد هي القوة ، وهذا من التبديل أيضا ، وهو جهل بلغة العرب ، والقوة إنما تسمى الأيد بلغة العرب ، لا اليد ،... قد أعلمنا الله عز وجل أنه خلق السماء بأيد ، واليد واليدان غير الأيد ، إذ لو كان الله خلق آدم بأيد كخلقه السماء ، دون أن يكون الله خص خلق آدم بيديه لما قال لإبليس : ما منعك أن تسجد لما خلقت بيدي ولا شك ولا ريب : أن الله عز وجل قد خلق إبليس عليه لعنة الله أيضا بقوته .،

Translation: And some of Jahmiyah claimed that the meaning of his saying "Allah created Adam with His (two) hands" is "His strength/power", so he claimed that "the hand" means power, and this is from changing (words) also, and it is ignorance of the Arabic language , and power/strength is called in the Arab's language "Al-ayd" not "al-yad"..... Allah has informed us that he created the heaven (As-sama') with (Ayd) power, and (al-yad) the hand and (al-yadan) the two hands are different than (al-ayd) power/strength; for if Allah created Adam with ayd like he created the heaven, without favouring the creation of Adam with His (two) hands He (Allah) wouldn't have said to Iblees: (ما منعك أن تسجد لما خلقت بيدي - (Allâh) said: "O Iblîs (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands 38:75) , and there is no doubt that Allah Azza wa Jal has created Iblees (Allah's curse be upon him) also with His power.

[loveProphet]

Sister, may i know who said that Imam Ibn Kathir(RA) did taw'eel on thay Ayah??
By the way sister, don't you do Taw'eel??

[Musleemah]

Sister, may i know who said that Imam Ibn Kathir(RA) did taw'eel on thay Ayah??

Check here
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...3&postcount=24

[loveProphet]

Assalam-o-Alaikum,

I think you should consider this when saying that Allah Has hands literally:
Then He ‘was established’ (istawa) upon the Throne" (Qur’an 7:54),
{People have many positions on this matter, and this is not the place to present them at length. On this point, we follow the position of the early Muslims (salaf)—Malik, Awza‘i, Thawri, Layth ibn Sa‘d, Shafi‘i, Ahmad, Ishaq ibn Rahawayh, as well as others among the Imams of the Muslims, ancient and modern—namely, to let the verse pass as it has come, without saying how it is meant (bi la takyif), without any resemblance to created things (wa la tashbih), and without nullifying it (wa la ta‘til): the literal outward meaning (dhahir) that comes to the minds of anthropomorphists (al-mushabbihin) is negated of Allah [italics mine], for nothing created has any resemblance to Him: "There is nothing whatsoever like unto Him, and He is the All-hearing, the All-seeing" (Qur’an 42:11) (Ibn Kathir: Tafsir al-Qur’an al-‘Azim, 2.220).}

When it is said that the modality is not know, the how and MEANING is not known.

Sister, it is known that the Salaf at times used Taw'eel to interpret the words hand etc. Such as concerning the verse (We have built the heaven with (Our) hands) (51:47), al-T.abarî narrated in his Tafsîr that Ibn `Abbâs said: "It means: with strength." He reports an identical position from Mujâhid, Qatâda, Mans.ûr, Ibn Zayd, and Sufyân al-Thawrî. This is also Imâm al-Ash`arîs explanation a reported by Ibn Fûrâk in the latters recension of Ash`arîs school.

We believe in the verses but we don't know the meaning nor the modality.
That is the way of the vast Salaf. I hope you take that way instead of taking the verses to mean limbs or parts.

Wa Salaam

[Musleemah]

al-T.abarî narrated in his Tafsîr that Ibn `Abbâs said: "It means: with strength." He reports an identical position from Mujâhid, Qatâda, Mans.ûr, Ibn Zayd, and Sufyân al-Thawrî. This is also Imâm al-Ash`arîs explanation a reported by Ibn Fûrâk in the latters recension of Ash`arîs school.

Brother all Mufasiroon said that (bi-ayd) in this ayah means strength or power, because it doesn't mean hands, like I explained above, (Ayd) comes in 2 meanings, so there was no ta'weel in this ayah.
Please review my above post to understand what I am saying.

That is the way of the vast Salaf. I hope you take that way instead of taking the verses to mean limbs or parts.

Saying that Allah has hands does not mean he is parts like us... High Exalted be He.

Insha Allah soon I will post a thread about our belief in Istiwa and make it more clearified because from your posts I can see that you don't understand exactly what our belief is regarding Istiwa and Allah being in as-sama'.
The reason why I haven't posted it yet because I was a little busy, and that topic needs some translation.. so insha Allah very soon I will do it.

[loveProphet]

As for the verses you gave, here are the tafsirs from Hazrat Ibn Abbas(RA):

51:47= (We have built) created (the heaven with might, and We it is who make the vast extent (thereof)) as We will; it is also said that this means: we expand the provision thereof.

48:10= ...(The Hand of Allah) in terms of reward and help (is above their hands) in relation to truthfulness, fulfilment and completion.

I also found this:
The Hanbali Imam Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-Khallal (311/923), who took his fiqh from Imam Ahmad’s students, relates in his al-Sunna [The sunna] through his chain of narrators from Hanbal [ibn Ishaq al-Shaybani] (d. 273/886), the son of the brother of Ahmad ibn Hanbal’s father, that

Imam Ahmad was asked about the hadiths mentioning "Allah’s descending," "seeing Allah," and "placing His foot on hell"; and the like, and he replied: "We believe in them and consider them true, without ‘how’ and without ‘meaning’ (bi la kayfa wa la ma‘na) [emphasis mine]."

And he said, when they asked him about Allah’s istiwa’ [translated above as established]: "He is ‘established’ upon the Throne (istawa ‘ala al-‘Arsh) how He wills and as He wills, without any limit or any description that be made by any describer (Kawthari, Daf‘ shubah al-tashbih. Cairo n.d. Reprint. Cairo: al-Maktaba al-Tawfiqiyya, 1396/1976, 28).

[Musleemah]

Assalam-o-Alaikum,
Actually, there was Taw'eel there since the literal meaning would be a hand/limb.
Anyways, i found this by Imam Bayhaqi(RA):
Imâm al-Bayhaqî said in his masterpiece al-Asmâ wal-S.ifât:

(ayd) does mean power/strength LITERALY.
The ayah says "bi-ayden" (the n is not a letter in the word, it is tanween: two slanted lines below the letter .. it gives it an "in" sound), and (ayd) with the tanween or without means power,
BUT without tanween it would NOT mean hands; with tanween it could mean hands (it has to do with grammer rules in Arabic language).

Anyway, my point is that here in this ayah (ayden) means (power/strength) which is the literal meaning for (ayd), not ta'weel of the word (aydee-literal meaning hands).

The proofs for that is:
1_ All mufasireen said that it means power/strenght.. but not all said that word "bi-yaaday" (my two hands) in surah 38 ayah 75 means power/strength, so if it meant hands the ones who confirmed the 2 hands in (38:71) would have confirmed it here too.

2_ What Ibn Khuzayma rahimahu Allah pointed out in his book which I quoted in my first post in this thread.

3_ What Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin pointed out in his explanation of this ayah, in which he said that in this ayah Allah did not attribute (ayden) to himself like he did in (36:71), where He said: "aydeena" which means (our hands).

4_ The significance and miracle/prodigy isn't in Allah making the heavens with His hands, the I'jaz - miracle and significance is in creating it with His great limitless power, if you get what I mean.


I will reply to other posts with questions directed to me tomorrow-time permitting- insha Allah.

[Musleemah]

By the way I seen you say somewhere that I said that Allah has "limbs" .. could you point out to me where I said that??

[Hmmm]

I think you would save a lot of trouble by leaving certain words that have anthropological connotations (eg hand, shin) in the original arabic (transliteration) rather than choosing a translation when discussing in English.

[aMuslimForLife]

By the way I seen you say somewhere that I said that Allah has "limbs" .. could you point out to me where I said that??

I never said that, I was just trying to figure out what meaning of hand were you affirming for Allah.

So what meaning of hand do you affirm for Allah?