Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Similarities Between Medicine and the Darse-Nizami, 3 Parts

  1. #1
    Scholar eTeacher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Near Niagara Falls
    Posts
    2,842

    Default Similarities Between Medicine and the Darse-Nizami, 3 Parts

    taken from: www.xanga.com/kr156

    Similarities Between Medicine and the Darse-Nizami, Part I

    As the kr Magical Mystery Tour comes to a sad end and once again I return to the purgatory known as medical school, I’ve been reflecting on my brief introduction—if one can even call it that—to higher studies in the sacred sciences that I’ve had over the past nine months. One thing that I found to be quite interesting is that in the system of classical Islamic education, there are many divisions and specialties amongst the various branches of knowledge. And perhaps this is true of all fields of higher education, whether they are religious or secular, but since I come from a laughable background in medicine as well, I began to notice the similarities between modern medical education and the traditional curriculum of the sacred sciences, known as the Darse Nizami. The Darse Nizami is the model followed by most traditional schools throughout the Muslim world, particularly in the subcontinent, to train students to becoming functional scholars and equipping them with enough tools to develop further mastery on their own. In a way then, it’s quite similar to modern medical education, which educates one with enough tools and principles to become a functional physician so that one can then specialize in a particular field. Each course is rigorous, taught by experts, and demands a high level of discipline from the student. And while there are notable differences (such as medical school only being four years whereas the traditional madrasa system tends to be seven to eight years), I think overall there are many similarities in the curriculum. What follows is a personal analysis of said similarities. This by no means is meant to be a completely accurate comparison of these two fields of knowledge, but I thought this might be an interesting read for anyone who might be interested.

    The modern system of medical education can be essentially broken down into two phases: the first two years, which consist primarily of classroom instruction and lecture with small amounts of practical experience in the hospital; and the second two years, which consists primarily of 6 core rotations in the third year, followed by optional rotations during the fourth year. Finally, a student graduates as a physician and then chooses to specialize in a particular specialty of his/her choice.

    a. the first two years: The subjects of the first two years can essentially be broken down into seven main categories – Anatomy, Biochemistry, Behavioral Sciences, Microbiology/Immunology, Pathology, Pharmacology, and Physiology.

    b. the third year: There are 6 core rotations during the third year: Internal Medicine, Surgery, Family Practice, Pediatrics, Obstetrics/Gynecology (OB/GYN), and Psychiatry.

    c. the fourth year: this is basically a slack off year wherein one does all the rotations that one is interested in, applies to residency programs, plays a lot of video games, etc.

    d. residency: the newly-graduated physician then becomes a slave for 3-5 years as he/she struggles away at a specialty, working some 80 hours a week, and getting paid less than a garbage man (and has to pay off a boatload of loans that amount to a mortgage, basically, but I digress…)

    The Darse Nizami curriculum is much longer (7-8 years) and consists of more books (80-100). The main areas of study aren’t that many, but a student ends up reading several books in the same subject in increasing levels of difficulty and detail. The main subjects are: Arabic Syntax/Grammar (Sarf/Nahw), Arabic Rhetoric (Balaghah), Hadith, Jurisprudence (Fiqh), Logic (Mantiq), Principles of Jurisprudence (Usul al-Fiqh), Qur’anic Exegisis (Tafsir), and Theology (`Aqidah). I’ve left out some others such as Tajweed and Sirah for the sake of brevity.

    With the overview complete, what follows is a closer personal analysis of the similarities between these disciplines.

    Anatomy = Arabic. This is because in both fields, a strong foundational mastery of these two branches of knowledge is essential to understanding everything else. No matter what field of medicine a doctor goes into, he must have a command over anatomy, otherwise he’ll look like a buffoon; the same thing goes for a scholar. Thus every physician has to start by reading texts like Essential Clinical Anatomy, Gray’s Anatomy, etc. while every prospective student of knowledge has to start with classical texts of Arabic verb conjugation and syntax, such as Wafiyah, the Ajrumiyyah, Sibawahy’s Kitab, etc. This initial study is then followed up by hands-on study: the medical student dissects cadavers, memorizes muscle/blood/nerve charts, and has to develop a sound mental picture of the human body. Similarly, one has to mindlessly memorize charts of verb conjugations, rules of grammatical contruction, and practice speaking/reading as well. And just as anatomy itself is composed of many branches, so too is Arabic:

    a. Gross Anatomy = Sarf/Nahw. The similarities in this were alluded to before, but another similarity is how study in each of these is a seemingly never ending task. In other words, one can do a few books in each of these branches and develop a working knowledge of how to “get by”: medical students may memorize High Yield or First Aid (yours truly is guilty of this) whereas their counterparts may just memorize Wafiyah. However, the depth of these branches is limitless: there are many more advanced anatomy texts for the medical student, while texts such as Sharh Mi’at `Amil, Hidayat al-Nahw, and Kafiyah of Ibn Hajib await the student of sacred knowledge. If one really wants to know what one is going to study in both of these fields, advanced study of these kinds of texts is necessary. It’s interesting that in modern medicine, gross anatomy is taught very quickly (we did it in like 6 months or something), whereas in modern madrasas, Arabic too is taught very quickly—both modern curriculums seek to develop a working knowledge instead of a true mastery. In the past, both medical schools and madrasas spent a considerable amount of time on anatomy and Arabic—something along the lines of 1.5 years and 3-4 years, respectively.

    b. Histology = Grammatical Analysis (Tarkib). Histology is the detailed and microscopic study of human tissue and cells. It’s often boring (and is taught terribly at UIC, if I might add…) and complicated and one sees no point to it. But it’s a necessary evil to understand since it helps to prepare one for pathology: studying normal tissue helps one to identify and understand what is diseased tissue. If it is taught well, histology becomes an art in and of itself. Tarkib is grammatical analysis of Arabic sentences using a text like Sharh Mi’at `Amil to understand and account for every word in a sentence (and also to account for the omitted verbs/subjects of a sentence, as the Qur’an and Hadith have a tendency to omit such words and it’s up to the reader to deduce them). Thus, it’s often dry and complicated at times, but if you have a genius as a teacher, such as Mawlana Aziz, it becomes a sacred art in and of itself. A sound understanding of tarkib is necessary to understand higher sciences such as Tafsir and Hadith.

    c. Embryology = Arabic Vocab. Embryology is the study of the development of the child from the time of conception until delivery. While it really isn’t an absolutely vital branch of medicine, it’s a very beautiful branch of medicine, since almost everything one learns in this subject can be appreciated and is an iman-booster, especially when one considers the Islamic implications of such knowledge. Developing one’s Arabic vocabulary too isn’t vital (since you can always look words up in a dictionary), but it helps one to appreciate the beauty of the complexity of the Arabic language, especially when one sees how different words that contain the same letters in different order are related and give new layers of meanings. Hence books such as Qisas al-Nabiyyeen are used to develop the student's Arabic vocabulary. Both of these disciplines, then, are also an art form, since being able to see such beauty requires the student to be interested in deeper understanding in these sciences.

    d. Neuroanatomy = Eloquence (Balaghah) Neuroanatomy takes gross anatomy one step further by focusing on the most complicated aspect of the human body, the human nervous system, especially the brain. It’s a fascinating field, and while it too isn’t vital to master, it helps one to appreciate other aspects of medicine and the human body as a whole. Most students (again, like me, regrettably) get around this class by browsing through First Aid, High Yield, or Neuroanatomy Made Ridiculously Simple. The true devotees, for example those who go into neurology or neurosurgery, develop a thorough mastery of this field and literally fall in love with the beauty of the human brain. Similarly, the madrasa curriculum includes studies in classical Arabic eloquence through books like the Diwan al-Mutanabbi, al-Balaghat al-Wadih, the Maqamat of Hariri, Saba` Mu`allaqat (the seven poems that were suspended on the walls of the Ka`bah during the days of Ignorance), etc. These are meant to help the prospective scholar better understand and appreciate the Qur’an and Hadith from an aesthetic perspective. Again, one can kind of breeze through this in modern times, but classically, mastery in this field was a must for any scholar, especially if he wished to write or speak. In classical Islamic communities, scholars were almost forced, out of necessity, to write eloquently and intricately…otherwise no one would take their work seriously. Hence linguistic geniuses like al-Hariri and Imam al-Ghazali were created. In modern times, this field has been explored and mastered only by a few geniuses who were devotees to this field, most notably the late great scholar, Mawlana Syed Abu’l Hasan Nadwi (rahimahullah).


  2. #2
    Senior Member godilali's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Shafi'i
    Location
    Chicago/Cairo
    Posts
    2,978

    Default

    Similarities Between Medicine and the Darse-Nizami, Part II

    2. Biochemistry = Tajwid, Sirah, and other pre-requisite sciences. Biochemistry is an assortment of various facts about the processes that govern the human body. It encompasses topics ranging from enzyme kinetics, vitamins, signal transduction, and various metabolic/anabolic processes that occur in the human body. As with other subjects within the medical curriculum, biochemistry is often a field of study in and of itself, with the profession of biochemistry being not only auxiliary to the medical field, but also a separate one with its own innovative research and governing philosophy. On the higher levels, biochemistry is a highly sophisticated field that has its own PhDs running the show. In addition, most medical students have a working knowledge of biochemistry before they even start medical school as a result of their exposure to biochemistry during their undergraduate years. Medical school biochemistry not only covers undergraduate biochemistry (I think we did in 2 weeks what we had done in a semester of undergrad), but goes into a more thorough analysis as well. Most importantly, biochemistry provides a framework of knowledge that affects other fields as well Similarly, tajwid (being able to recite Qur�an properly), sirah (the life story of the Prophet (salallahu `alayhi wa sallam)), etc., are a collection of assorted Islamic sciences. Most people have an exposure to tajwid and sirah even before they start a formalized program of Islamic studies. And while a working knowledge of these is necessary to contextualize Hadith, Fiqh, and Tafsir, mastery in these fields is often a separate program of study: and thus we have amazing qaris and historians who aren�t necessary scholars. And just as many common people know about biochemical processes, many common people know (and should know) tajwid and sirah.

    3. Behavioral Sciences = Usul in hadith and tafsir; tasawwuf. Behavioral sciences is a collection of various topics as well, ranging from statistical analysis to situational ethics. A lot of times, behavioral sciences are regarded as �fluff�, unimportant, and not as glamorous as other subjects within the medical curriculum. It may even seem like it is semantics, rhetoric, and ethical acrobatics in many ways. Yet, behavioral sciences are a necessary component for the prospective physician since many topics, such as epidemiology and situational ethics, are vital for the physician regardless of the field of specialization. Ethics, especially, often is debatable, and it must be taught by masters of the field or else the student can be led astray. Knowledge of this also helps the physician to relate to his/her patients and their families; in a way, it helps the physician to be more human instead of just being a walking copy of Harrison�s Guide to Internal Medicine. Similarly, study of usul(principles) is vital for a scholar before he/she begins to actually study advanced fields. This is because principles remain as guiding beacons of light along the path when one ventures into these disciplines. As for tasawwuf, the prospective scholar must be spiritually grounded and connected to the mystical tradition through a shaykh that can refine and excise the student�s deficiencies while bolstering and harnessing the student�s academic and spiritual potential. Just as ethics must be taught by a master of ethics (often no real textbook is used, and ethics are taught differently be different doctors), spirituality isn�t something that one learns from reading a text. It is a science that requires sophisticated levels of discipline and how it is taught differs from shaykh to shaykh, depending on what the shaykh feels is necessary for the student to develop. Many times, it seems very unglamorous and full of �fluff�, but only after years of dedication to mysticism, just as ethics, does one truly appreciate remaining true to this field of knowledge.

    4. Microbiology and Immunology = `Aqidah (Theology) and Mantiq (Logic). Microbiology is the study of bacteria, viruses, fungi, parasites, and other nasty little critters that cause disease in the human body. It focuses not only on studying their life cycle and how they damage the human body, but also deals with treatments for various infections. Since viruses and bacteria are the most common causes of sickness, this is what most people think of when they think of �doctor�: someone who treats fevers, headaches, and colds. Immunology is the study of the body�s immune system and how it responds naturally and when stimulated to fight off infection. It�s quite systematic in terms of cause and effect, and perfectly complements microbiology. Thus, both courses are often taught simultaneously, or more often, microbiology follows immunology. In terms of the sacred sciences, `aqidah is often regarded as one of the highest academic sciences, to the point it�s often referred to as `ilm al-kalam, or knowledge of speech (literally), since classical theologians often deemed that any speech that is not of theology is not true speech at all. Knowledge of theology, about the attributes and characteristics of Allah, understanding the Divine Decree, etc. is essential to being able to qualify faith, both to one�s self and to others. Thus, books such as `Aqidah Tahawiyyah and Sharh `Aqa�id al-Nasafiyyah are taught to equip the future scholar with correct information about such matters within the scope of the people of Sunnah and Jama`ah. Lacking knowledge of theology leads to an intellectual sickness with spiritual effects, whereas one who soundly understands theology (just as one who soundly understands microbiology) is able to authoritatively treat such diseases/issues when they arise. As for mantiq (logic), it is an amalgamation of common sense logic with classical Aristotleian logic. It is necessary to know logic in order to understand theology, especially in terms of understanding arguments against deviant groups such as the Mu`tazilites. The great mystic-scholar, the Proof of Islam, Abu Hamid al-Ghazali said, �man lam ya`rifi �l-mantiqa fa la thiqata lahu fi �l-uloom (Whosoever does not know logic, he has no trustworthiness in (the matters) of religious knowledge)�, signifying the importance and status of logic. This is why logic is taught before any serious undertaking of aqidah is taken. Certainly, a superficial knowledge of aqidah without logic is beneficial, but to truly be grounded in theology, logic is vital.

    5. Pathology = Tafsir (Quranic Exegesis). Pathology is the branch of medicine that is a study of the nature of disease and its causes, processes, development, and consequences. In essence, it is the heart of medicine. Any prospective doctor must know pathology extremely well since he will be using this knowledge in nearly everything. It is a vast field that deals with everything, with hundreds of books written that deal with the subject; classically, certain books such as Robbins� Pathology (though I�d like to add BRS Pathology on here� hehe) stand out as the standard used in medical schools everywhere. There is a lot to know�there is a book component, a lab component, and a visualization component as well�and thus further study in this field is a specialization in and of itself. Especially on the USMLEs, the number of questions that deal with Pathology, out of 300, it�s safe to say that at least 100 of them have something to do with Path. As mentioned previously, other subjects help one to do well in pathology, especially histology (for the visual component) since histology helps one to understand what �normal� is supposed to be in order to determine what is �abnormal�. As for tafsir, seeing as how the Qur�an is the chief source of guidance for Muslims, the prospective scholar must understand it inside and out. It is not just a vast field, it is a limitless ocean of knowledge and despite hundreds of commentaries written by scholars from every generation, and we have barely scratched the surface of understanding the full meaning of God�s Book. In classical institutions, there are several commentaries that stand out as the paragon works for the prospective scholar to study, such as Tafsir al-Jalalayn of Jalal al-Din al-Mahalli and Jalal al-Din al-Suyuti, Tafsir al-Baydawi, and Ruh al-Ma`ani. True Qura�nic study is left for the last years of the course, since so many prerequisite branches of knowledge must be mastered before the student can truly understand exegesis. As mentioned earlier, knowledge of tarkib is vital to begin understanding the Jalalayn, for example. In fact, even the books taught in the course are essentially primers that help the scholar to read even more advanced commentaries on his/her own after graduation. And just as we learn more and more things about the nature of disease in Pathology, we learn newer meanings of the Qur�an in every generation.

    Part III to follow in a few days, Inshallah. I've been way too busy lately.


  3. #3
    Administrator Saleel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Leicester, UK
    Posts
    2,337

    Default

    , that guy is truly a genious.


  4. #4
    Senior Member bambino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    1,376

    Default





    now i know why most doctors @ uni look confused, beacuse they have all that floating in there head!



  5. #5
    Scholar eTeacher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Near Niagara Falls
    Posts
    2,842

    Default

    http://www.xanga.com/kr156

    Similarities Between Medicine and the Darse-Nizami, Part III
    kr's note: This is the third and concluding part of the post begun nearly two weeks ago.


    6. Pharmacology = Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence). Pharmacology is the study of various drugs and substances and their effects on the human body. It also deals with when/how much of a drug a person needs to receive based on their health state, allergies, other medications they might be taking, etc. It’s unfortunately also one of the most abused disciplines by doctors and laymen alike; the former often wrongly dosing patients or even abusing prescriptions (such as pain killers) for themselves, the latter’s abuse is self-explanatory. Nonetheless, pharmacology depends on a solid understanding of physiology, since most drugs work by manipulating the body’s physiology to create an effect, whether it is desired or not. At the highest level, however, it is a beautiful discipline that contains discussions such as the understanding of how a drug works, what is the principle behind it, when other medications might be needed (whether they are better or complentary), and also a study of “alternative” schools of pharmacology (ayurvedic, herbal, etc). Fiqh is often considered by many as the main component of Islamic scholarship. It deals with both practical and hypothetical situations, with the main idea being what is the ruling in a given time and place. Unfortunately, it too is often misunderstood and abused by both scholars and common people, often leading to disastrous results. The Darse Nizami is primarly a Hanafi curriculum; hence books of increasing difficulty, such as Nur al-Idah, Mukhtasar al-Quduri, Sharh Wiqayah, and Kanz al-Daqa’iq all prepare the prospective scholar for the crowning Hanafi fiqh book, al-Hidayah of Imam al-Marghinani. And just as the doctor must know of other alternative schools of therapeutics, the future scholar must have a working knowledge of the other three schools of jurisprudence as well.


    7. Physiology = Usul al-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence). Physiology is the study of how living organisms function in a normal and healthy state. Whereas anatomy dealt with the morphology (shape and form) of the human body, physiology deals with the function of living things. Physiology deals with how organs and tissues work, how they are controlled, how they interact with other parts of the body, and how they are integrated within the individual. In short, it tells us, theoretically, how the body should be so that one can detect when things have gone wrong in the body. Usul comprises of rules of thumb, maxims, and other theoretical principles that dictate how Islamic Law functions. Unlike Fiqh itself, which deals with the specifics of a situation and how to remedy it (how many days can one wipe over leather socks, for example, while being a resident vs a traveller) but deals with the bigger picture, ie, the principles that govern how such a law came into place. The greatest scholars of any generation are brilliant usulis, people who saw the forest from the trees and held firm to the principle, even if the ruling changed. Hence, books of increasing sophistication are used for the prospective scholar: Nur al-Anwar, Usul al-Shashi, Hussami, etc. Just as there was a relationship between anatomy and physiology, there is a relationship between the Arabic language and usul, since many rulings (such as the difference between the Hanafis and Shafi’is in whether or not the elbow is included in ablution depends on the interpretation of the word “ila”) depend on one’s understanding of how the text (Qur’an, Hadith, etc) are written.


    8. The 6 Core Rotations/Clerkships (Medicine, Surgery, Family Medicine Pediatrics, Obstetrics/Gynecology, and Psychiatry) correspond nicely with the 6 main books of hadith taught during the final year: Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Jami` al-Tirmidhi, Sunan Abu Dawud, Sunan al-Nisa’i, and Ibn Majah. I think the order I’ve stated above for each of the rotations corresponds nicely with the order I’ve given for the books of Hadith. For example, knowledge of Medicine is the foundation for any “real” doctor (yes, this is a shot at surgeons… as Dr. Cox said, “I would say that surgeons are about as useful as rocks, except that we actually make use of rocks to build bridges and throw them at those people that talk with those tiny cell phones in their ear.) just as the scholar must know Bukhari well.


    9. The M4/Residency Years correspond with further specialization that a scholar chooses to do (takhassus in Hadith, iftah course, etc.) once he/she has completed the main alim course. In a way then, both medical school and the alim course are also tools in that they allow a person to further explore the depths of a given field. Of course, one may choose not to specialize in both medicine and Islamic scholarship and can still benefit society with this level of training.


    10. Finally, there’s many other minor similarities that exist between the two fields of study that I’ll simply state here as a final note:

    Both are taught by masters of their respective fields
    Both have a sophisticated yet unstated system of “academic politics” wherein a hierarchy is established, usually with the senior clinicians/scholars at the top and the students at the bottom, often serving as “scut monkeys”/”khidmat (hospitality) committees” for the higher ups =).
    In both fields, students graduate as equals—technically on paper—of their teachers.
    In both medicine and Islamic scholarship, the lay people admire and venerate (well, at least they used to) the doctor and the scholar.
    Both fields demand that one remain committed to a lifelong process of learning, reviewing, and further researching to keep up to date with the latest trends and developments
    Finally, and perhaps most importantly, both the doctor and the scholar deal with the two of the most vital components of the human being: the body and the soul, respectively. The well-being of each of these lies in the feeble hands of the doctor of medicine and the doctor of Sacred Law. Perhaps this is why each Prophet (upon whom be peace) engaged in both professions and thus both the physician and the alim walk in the footsteps of the Messengers. And thus the doctor must take great care in treating his/her patients, just as the scholar must show, above all, the Prophetic attribute of compassion and tolerance to those people whom he wishes to save.

    Of course, there’s many differences in these two professions, perhaps the most striking one being that scholars don’t get paid nearly as much as doctors…hehe, but that’s a discussion for another day.


  6. #6
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Gender
    Sister
    Madhhab
    Don't know
    Posts
    10

    Default

    I like the comparison: i'll certainly be sharing this with my colleagues and see what they think of it


  7. #7
    Senior Member faqir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    4,401

    Default



    Nice post. Where are you studying Medicine Maulana?
    Imam al-Zarqani said in his book Manahil al-Irfan: 'Our Scholars agreed that if a word carries 99 aspects of disbelief and one aspect of faith, it must be interpreted according to the best of meanings, which is faith'.

    Visit www.asharis.wordpress.com and the Marifah website


  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faqir


    Nice post. Where are you studying Medicine Maulana?

    hehe, jazakallah khayr for the kind words, but I'm not a Mawlana... far from it academically and galaxies away from it spiritually. im currently studying medicine (3rd year of med school) at University of Illinois at Chicago (UIC). my paltry experiences with sacred knowledge have also been in and around chicago for the most part.


  9. #9
    Scholar eTeacher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Near Niagara Falls
    Posts
    2,842

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by faqir


    Nice post. Where are you studying Medicine Maulana?
    Br. Faqir, those posts were not written by me. If only I could write like that.

    kr156: what made you think he was talking to you?

    but folks, alhamdulillah... kr156 is doing both at once...i don't know how...but he's doing it... once he's done both...he'll be writing about his experiences insha allah...


  10. #10
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    2,018

    Default

    This was a very nice article

    Ja zakallah For sharing guys


Similar Threads

  1. Dars-e-Nizami - Most Effective Way of Study?
    By Zacheriya in forum Islamic Education
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 29-12-2013, 08:23 PM
  2. Darse Nizami: audio lectures
    By ILYAS MEMON in forum Islamic Education
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 24-12-2012, 01:14 AM
  3. Does any one have complete Darse Nizami books?
    By wattakhail121 in forum Islamic Education
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 29-11-2011, 04:15 PM
  4. Need online audio lectures on some darse nizami texts
    By Sadia Behzad in forum Islamic Education
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 21-11-2011, 03:45 PM
  5. Darse Nizami grads not able to speak in Arabic?
    By motheroftwo in forum Islamic Education
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-03-2010, 04:14 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •