Qur'an is Preserved Through 'Tawatur-e-Qawli'
The Qur'an is preserved with us through 'tawatur' (consensus of each generation of 'ummah' since the time of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)). This is the biggest proof that it is the same Qur'an as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).Originally Posted by Writer
Rest of all your sayings, well, people often come up with such charges when they cannot answer something in a scholastic way.
Sincerely,
Junaid
Baseless Statements!!
Too many accusations!! Such baseless, abusive and naive statements without any evidence are not only against the Qur'anic teachings but the very nature of man as well.
I request you to please provide evidences to what you're saying.
Waiting for your response.
Junaid
Being able to differ with an established opinion of a madhab entails
being from the ashaab-e-tarjeeh.
If you wish to claim such a maqaam- you will have to prove you
have the capacity for ijtihaad with its known conditions.
Not everyone who claims to be a mujtahid is a mujtahid...
Instead of abusing, please criticise the opinions of Imam Hamid-ud-Din Farahi (RA), Mawlana Islahi (RA) and Allama Ghamidi on the scholastic grounds. Take their opinions one by one and criticise them on the basis of the Qur'an and Sahih Hadith if you disagree with them.
My Brothers and Sisters, the image of Islam has already blackened a lot!! People here in the West literally hate us not because of any other reason but our strange stubborn beliefs and attitudes. Let us present Allah's Message in the best way possible. Difference of opinion is not a matter of 'kufr' and Islam. We're all Muslims who are striving to understand Allah's religion; it is not possible that each one of us would 100% agree on one thing. I request you all to please tolerate other people's ideas and opinions so that they may tolerate you in return.
I'm still waiting for some of the references I requested for. For example, to the statements like Allama Ghamidi makes a mockery of Islam and he abuses Prophets (AS) and other great people in his books. Please provide them so that I may separate myself from Ghamidi school of thought.
Thanks.
Yours Brother,
Juanid
Last edited by JunaidHassan; 29-04-2007 at 02:32 PM. Reason: Typos
For God's sake, this is what I have been saying from the day one.
I'd refer you to 'Meezan' in which Allama Ghamidi explicitly states his conditions for the interpretation of D'in. Please, at least, go through this book once and then criticise it as much as you desire.
As far as I have understood his conditions and criterion, they are excellent!!
Mizaan is available on the following web address:
http://www.saadsaleem.com/islam
It does not befit a muslim to say anything to a brother with Salaam..
That said..
As for me you are Majhool. And your naration will be disregarded for that majhooliyat. BUT my question is to ask you of your qualification upon which you have deduced that you can make istimbaat from Quran or Hadith. Since you are so nice in quoting..
"Imam Abu Hanifa has said that None has the right to narate any hadith unless he has heard it from a Muhaddith himself and remembers it until he narates.." (Mezaan ul Kubraa Vol 1Pg 63)
So please tell us who are your teachers and with what sanad is your rawaya?
Lengthy discussion on such quotes have been discussed in the forum elsewhere. In short the statements are not directed at you me or us massess..2. Please quote me where I said that other people should accept my opinion? In fact, I said something 100% opposite to it in one of my previous responses. Even the 'aima' did not ask anyone to accept their personal opinions.
Let me present some quotes as cited by Sheikh Muhammad Sultan Al-Masoomi (RA) in his book: Should A Muslim Follow a Particular Madhab, P. 52?
"Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) used to say:
"This is my view; if there's another better than this, I shall accept that without any hesitation."
Almost all the imams declared the same view about their opinion. They used to say:
"This is my personal view and is not binding upon anyone to accept it; he who agrees to my arguments may accept my view, he who disagrees to my arguments may discard my view."
Ulama have written books and books on the Usool of Fiqh in Takhreej of Ahkaam min al kitaab. and you have merely stated the criteria is "furqan". SubhanAllah.3. I have already mentioned that the criterion is what Allah has entitled as "Furqan".
[quote]4. First, the general understanding of consensus (ijma) is questionable. "My community will never agree upon an error" hadith is often cited as a support for the validity of 'ijma'. However, what we understand from it is totally different. The hadith says that whole 'ummah' cannot agree upon an error. At least, there would be someone who would raise one's voice against the error. This hadith, to us, by no means mean that the majority is authority.[quote]
a. you did not answer the question
b. enlighten please what does the hadith mean.. and how many harmoneous judgements has this "Free thought" ideology proved. Should we list down all the Ikhtalafat of Maududi with Ghamdi with Sayyid Qutub with Mas'oodies with Jamat Muslimeen with etc etc!! where is this agreement in ummah? Atleast the ikhtalafat of Shafii Maliki etc has not rendered their shuyukh making nakeer of the other.
c. this hadith in particular has also been discussed.
Uff. Sorry Muaaf for being soooo abstract5. Whom are you calling a 'streethawker' and on what basis?Brother a streethawker is a streethawker.. rerhi wala!! or lets say challi bechnay wala! and on what basis.. because he goes in streets to hawk!!!! now please answer.. how will he make these istimbaat?
He was a mujtahid. The personal opinion which you are talking about is that of Imam Abu Hanifa r.a about whome it is said that he is Qadiul Qudaatul Ulamaa (Manaqib Al Imam Al A'zam Vol 2 Pg 45); Allama Kawthari has said that not only was he regarded as muhaddith rather maker of muhaddith! (Uqood ul Jamaan Bihawala Al Khateeb.... Pg 156)6. I'm sorry to say that the meaning in which you're taking this hadith goes against your own 'madhab'. There are a million opinions of Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) which are based upon his own personal understanding. One example is Imam's opinion in the matter of face covering of a woman.
I'd request you to please enhance your knowledge of philosophical inference and logic so that we may undertake more educated discussions.
Thanks.
Also understand that the Mufta Behi in Hanafiyya is upon Mashura and not on personal opinion. Ibn Abideen Says from Imam She'rani that the mashwara on every massala used to be very indepth. so much so that sometimes it would take days, while at times it would take months discussing the mas'ala. Imam Sahib would listento the views and would ask them to be written down. Then listen to their dalaail and ask them to be written downand then would give his opinion and give dalail from Quran Sunnah and Aqwaal of Sahaba. Then when the Majlis would get agreed upon on the result for the mas'ala , then Imam Yusuf r.a would write it down. (Muqadama Shami)
Nontheless, Imam Sahib Alhamdulillah fulfills the criteria of Mujtahid even by definition of Ibn Taymiya.. Does Javed Ghamdi even ranks up to be muhaddith??
Qur'an & Sunnah are the final authority - no a'lim!
The major difference between you and us is that you take 'aima' as the final authority whereas we take Allah's Book which He has entitled 'Furqan' as the final authority. The verdict of Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) is not final, neither Allah has ordered me to follow him. The final authority is the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah. I will accept each and every opinion of Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) which I'd find stronger in arguments whereas reject each and every and take from another if I'd find another person's arguments stronger than his.
Call me 'majhool' or even 'kafir' if you like but I would never ever dare to give Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) the rank of Prophet (SAW) or the Qur'an. He by no means is the final authority to me though I deeply respect and love him for his great services to Allah's Religion.
Allama Ghamidi is one of my greatest teachers, I'd request you to please go through his book "Mizaan" and see how he directly takes from the Qur'an, Sunnah and Hadith.
I haven't stated that the criterion is Qur'an, Allah Himself states so in the Qur'an. Whatsoever any 'aalim' writes from his opinion is debatable. Please stop telling me 'ulema', 'ulema', 'ulema'... no 'a'lim' is the final authority. I request you to come back to the Qur'an and take from it.
I think I have.
The term Hadith (literally: ‘a saying’ or ‘something new’) is defined as the individual-to-individual narratives ascribed to the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) regarding his sayings, actions, expressed or tacit approvals and his personal description.
Some scholars apply the word Hadith to connote the actions or sayings of the companions of the Prophet and even their successors (peace be upon them all). However, more precisely the word Athr (i.e. relic) is used to connote this sense. The Hadith literature consists of voluminous books of narratives compiled by different scholars during the second and third century AH. The authenticity of each hadith is determined by the personal principles of acceptance or rejection of the compilers themselves.
I wonder in which world are you living!! I think you are not familiar with the scholastic world at all! Disagreement will always be there in the scholastic world, it does not mean that any personality is disapproved! Allama Ghamidi always praises all 'aima' in beautiful words. He has a lot of respect for all of them. However, if you expect him to bow down to any opinion which he thinks is weak in the light of the Qur'an, he would never do so does not matter if it's coming from Imam Shafa'i (RA) or Imam Abu Hanifa (RA).
We are not aware of the matters of disagreements within these great scholars that is why we easily say that these disagreements are small and ignorable. Such statements sound very correct if you're talking to common people but not in the scholastic world. Both the greatest students of Imam Shafa'i (RA) are of the opinion that a woman can lead men in 'salah'. What would you say about it?? Allama Ghamidi disagrees with them and says that as it never happened in the time of the Prophet (SAW), we should not start anything like this. Similary if you're familiar with fiqah, there are long debates in it regarding the flesh of donkey - if it is 'halal' or 'haram'. Therefore, please do not try to give a wrong notion of 'ijma'.
I'm sorry to say that the reality is in reverse. Hanafi scholars when come to debate with Allama Ghamidi, I can clearly see who is a streethawker and who's not. They neither have any knowledge nor strong enough arguments to cope up with Allama Ghamidi. This is not a mere statement. Hundreds of VCDs are available of the live discussions between Allama Ghamidi and Hanafi scholars, watch and you'll know who is a "streethawker". Here you may buy these VCDs:
Uff. Sorry Muaaf for being soooo abstract
http://www.ghamidi.org/al-mawrid_shop.html
Regarding the very personality of Imam Abu Hanifa (RA), I'd say he is one of the greatest of figures to have ever lived in the history of Islam. There is no doubt in it. But, beware, he was not Rasul-Ullah but a scholar only, a man who could err, a man who could be wrong in his opinions.
'Opinion' or 'a school of thought' is still an opinion doesn't matter if you form it after discussing it a thousand times with a thousand men. Allama Ghamidi forms his opinions after a million discussions too and he changes them straightaway when he finds an err in them.
Please note here that the latter Hanafis do not agree with Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) and respected Abu Bakr Jasas (RA), in all aspects. The best example is the face covering of a woman. See the verdicts of Imam ABu Hanifa (RA) in tis matter and compare them with the verdicts of today's Hanafis.
May Allah guide us to free ourselves from all sects and hold his Book firmly so that we may prosper. (A'min!)
Sincerely,
Junaid
Last edited by JunaidHassan; 29-04-2007 at 05:12 PM. Reason: Typo
I am sorry for no detail reply... but I need to clarify one thing which you have misunderstood in hast.
You seem to be overcome by your emotions. Brother I am NOT comparing Ghamdi Miyaan with a streethawker!! I am asking in istimbaat of any mas'ala you say that Quran should be kep as furqan. I am asking how any streethawker who doe not know the difference between Fa 3a La and Fala.. (i.e he has no shudh bush of arabic, let alone istimbaat) will compare with the quran and see what is mu'tabar oipinion. This question was never a comparison of Ghamdi miyaans ability. It was a generic question.Originally Posted by abuhajira View Post
I'm sorry to say that the reality is in reverse. Hanafi scholars when come to debate with Allama Ghamidi, I can clearly see who is a streethawker and who's not. They neither have any knowledge nor strong enough arguments to cope up with Allama Ghamidi. This is not a mere statement. Hundreds of VCDs are available of the live discussions between Allama Ghamidi and Hanafi scholars, watch and you'll know who is a "streethawker". Here you may buy these VCDs:Uff. Sorry Muaaf for being soooo abstract Brother a streethawker is a streethawker.. rerhi wala!! or lets say challi bechnay wala! and on what basis.. because he goes in streets to hawk!!!! now please answer.. how will he make these istimbaat?
Secondly, The tactic of using Mukhatib Seegha and then accusing of ignorance, is not a decent way of discussion. Was this sentence in accordance with the who discussion?I wonder in which world are you living!! I think you are not familiar with the scholastic world at all!
Thirdly, If you at one time say that "The major difference between you and us is that you take 'aima' as the final authority whereas we take Allah's Book which He has entitled 'Furqan' as the final authority. The verdict of Imam Abu Hanifah (RA) is not final..., and then at another instance you say Please note here that the latter Hanafis do not agree with Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) and respected Abu Bakr Jasas (RA), in all aspects. You have indeed either contradicted yourself OR you have deduced an incorrect conclusion. I have laid out to you the way fatawa were given in time of Imam Saheb. r.a . I have not mentioned the way of Ashab ut Tarjeeh upon which the Hanafiyyah establishes the Hanafi ruling. The whole conceptt of mashwara and deduction of mufta behi qawl within hanafiya goes contrary to your claim that we hinge on the following of Imam Sahib in entirety. and if understood appropriately, it is very much possible to have a Mufta Behi qawl completely different from the view of Imam Saheb. You are giving one example , I can give one too.. but what is the difference.. All who chose the appropriate Qawl within the Madhab were qualified for that! Allama Ghamdi is NOT!!
Imam Malik mentions that a person needs to have memorized 500,000 ahadith with asnaad to be able for consideration among the mujtahid. That also he says that such a person can pass a fatwa (i.e with his ijtihaad). Is Allamah Ghamdi even close to this one condition???
The Final Criteria are: The Qur'an & Sunnah Only!
The Qur'an says:
"But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith until they make you (SAW) judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decision, and accept (them) with full submission." (4:56)
Then the Qur'an says:
"Verily those who divide their religion and break up into sects, you (O Muhammad) have no concern in them in the least..." (6:159)At another point, it says:
"Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to the peoples." (25:1)
Look what 'Aima' have said:
"...It is also expressed from the four Imams:
'Judge our words on the criterion of Qur'an and Sunnah, and if you find our words corresponding to the Qur'an and Sunnah then, accept them, otherwise turn them down.' "
(Should a Muslim Follow a Particular Madhhab, Al-Masoomi, P. 19)
"None of the Imams urged to anyone to follow their 'Madhahib', one the other hand, all of the Imams advised:
'Take from where we have taken'.
(Should a Muslim Follow a Particular Madhhab, Al-Masoomi, P. 18)
"Imam Malik said: 'The views and opinions of everybody may be accepted or rejected except his who is resting in this grave.' While saying this, Imam Malik pointed towards the grave of the Prophet (SAW)."
(Should a Muslim Follow a Particular Madhhab, Al-Masoomi, P. 19)
---
This is exactly what I believe in. I take all the great scholars as pious men of Allah but only accept the verdict of the one whose opinion I find strongest as per the Qur'an and Sunnah.
I don't mind whether a verdict is coming from Imam Shafa'i, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifah, Mawlana Mawdudi (may peace be upon them all) or Allama Ghamidi -- I'll accept only that verdict which I would find closest to the Qur'an and Sunnah.
This is the way other than forming the sects and limiting ourselves only to the titles like Hanafi or Shafai or Brailvi etc. etc. that Allah's Book and his Prophet (SAW) have not chosen for us.
Sincerely,
Junaid
Qur'an Must Be the Authority
With due respect, I'm not talking about commoners. A person like Mawlana Amin Ehsan Islahi (RA) or Allama Ghamidi are genius and as high in wisodm and understanding as any Imam (RA). I'm 100% sure that you are not familiar with the works of these scholars, otherwsie you wouldn't have had any hesitation to accept that they have the ability to directly take from the Qur'an and Sunnah.
Please forgive me for this but isn't this mistake of "Mukhatib Seegha" only a little when you find many people on your forum abusing personalities like Allama Ghamidi, Mawlana Maududi (RA), Mawlana Amin Ehsan Islahi (RA) and Imam Hamid-ud-Din farahi (RA). This is a double standard to me! Please also like for your fellow believers what you like for yourself. If you want to be respected, please learn to respect others as well.
I'm very happy to see that you're a kind of a person who accepts that Imam Abu Hanifa's (RA) opinion may be overlooked in the light of the Qur'an or Sunnah. Great!
I disagree with you that Allama Ghamidi is not qualified. It is very similar to the statement if I say: Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) was not qualified. Please first, AT LEAST, go through his works then say whatever you want. To me, Allama Ghamidi surely is as high in wisdom and knowledge as any of the 'aima' (RA).
Again you're mentioning Imam Malik's (RA) verdict as a 'hujjat'. I say, please take Qur'an - Allah's Furqan as the authority!! It is not enough to say that we take Qur'an as authority just by the word of mouth. It must practically be used as 'Furqan'. Imam Malik's (RA) opinion is not the authority. Even if I accept this, do you know how many ahadith Allama Ghamidi has memorized? You can only judge him on this criterion if you know how many he has memorized, simple! So can you please come up with the exact number??
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
_________________________
Bookmarks