The sufi hadra

[AbuZayd]

Assalm alykum

sufi dance

call me a wahabi, but tell me you guys are kidding. I aint got nothing aginst sufi tariqas, and am searching for someone to give bayah to myself, but dance? music? Abu zayd wheres that banghead smilie we have at ummah?

[From my single experience], there was no music Akhi GenN (good to see you here by the way) Nor would I call it a "dance" as such in the sense that we are familiar with although the article above clarifies this. Personally, I will probably not do it again - as I am unlikely to be able to keep a straight face (and my back might not hold up )



"Men who celebrate the praises of Allah standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides"

[Qur'an 3:191.]


Wasalam.

[AbuZayd]

Sallamu Alaikum

similary, the great explanation provided by Akhi Zain:

Akhi, do you know which Mufti the brother is referring to in the above quote?

[AbuZayd]

I also found this opinion in the Hanbali madhab

Answered by Sidi Musa Fuber

Question:

Salaam alaikum,

What is the position in the Hanbali school (both early and later classical scholars, as well as the "controversial ones" throughout) on the subject of Hadra (the Sufi standing/dancing form of zhikr)?


Wasalaam




Answer:



wa `alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

The books indicate that the scholars of the Hanbali madhhab, and as was the case in other schools as well, did not have a consensus concerning the hadra.

One scholar who was adamant against the hadra is Ibn Al-Jawzi. This is seen in Mukhtasr Minhaj Al-Qasidin, Ahkam Al-Nisa' and Talbis Iblis. From his accounts of what happened in the hadras of his time he was totally justified in doing so. The hadras he talked about were gatherings of the zanadiqa and they were assemblies of moral corruption..

And one scholar who was a proponent of the hadra was none other than Al-Safarini, the later Hanbali who authored one of the greatest book on athari `aqidah as well as Ghidha Al-Lubab Sharh Alfiyat Al-Adab. Sheikh `Abd Al-Qadir `Isa frequently cites Ghidha Al-Lubab in his book Haqa`iq `An Al-Tasawwuf. In addition to being a top notch scholar of Hanbali fiqh and `aqidah, he was also a student of the great Hanafi sufi sheikh Sheikh `Abd Al-Ghani Al-Nablusi.

Something to keep in mind is that many of the things that Ibn Al-Jawzi condemned Al-Safarini and other proponents of the hadra condemn as well. Proponents of the hadra put conditions on it.

Such a delicate and controversial topic warrants a detail study, if only to show each side that there is enough evidence to require mutual respect. We all, in sha Allah, have more important things to do. Like actually practicing tazkiyat al-nafs instead of talking about it and soiling our tongues.

May Allah be pleased and have mercy on all of the scholars of Islam.

And Allah knows best.

wa al-salamu `alaykum
--musa

[salman]

Akhi, do you know which Mufti the brother is referring to in the above quote?

Sallamu Alaikum

I think Mufti Muhammad, Wallahu A'lam.

As Salaamu Alaykum.

Brother ibn Rashid, Mufti Muhammad Sahib teaches at Jame'ah Uloomul Qur'an. Which is under the Patronage of Hadhrat Sheikh Maulana Adam Sahib.

The Darul Uloom is located in the Highfield/North Evington Area (Baggrave Street).

Wa Alaykum As Salaam.

[GenN]

Assalm alykum

may Allah reward you all for your explanations. However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it. And i definetly wouldnt use the word "dance" to describe it, it may have been ok to use that word in the past but hese days the image that goes into a person head when you say "dance".....

what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

was salaam.

[AbuZayd]

No idea about the whirling dervishes......

I also came across the following on the subject of "dancing" whilst making dhikr (posted by one of the brothers in another forum):




Shaykh Ul Islam Jalal al-Din Suyuti was asked for a fatwa or formal legal opinion concerning "a group of Sufis who had gathered for a session of dhikr," and he replied:

How can one condemn making dhikr while standing, or standing while making dhikr, when Allah Most High says, ". ..those who invoke Allah standing, sitting, and upon their sides" (Koran 3: 191). And' A'isha (Allah be well pleased with her) said, "The Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) used to invoke Allah at all of his times" [Sahih Muslim, 1.282: 373]. And if dancing is added to this standing, it may not be condemned, as it is of the joy of spirirual vision and ecstasy, and the hadith exists [in many sources, such as Musnad al Imam Ahmad, 1.108, with a sound (hasan) chain of transmission] that Ja'far ibn Abi Talib danced in front of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) when the Prophet told him, "You resemble me in looks and in character," dancing from the happiness he felt from being thus addressed, and the Prophet did not condemn him for doing so, this being a basis for the legal acceptability of the Sufis dancing from the joys of the ecstasies they experience

(al-Hawi li al-fatawi. 2 vols. Cairo 1352/1933-34. Reprint. Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'llmiyya, 1403/1983, 2.234).

[salman]

Assalm alykum

may Allah reward you all for your explanations. However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it. And i definetly wouldnt use the word "dance" to describe it, it may have been ok to use that word in the past but hese days the image that goes into a person head when you say "dance".....

what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

was salaam.

Sallamu Alaikum

Jazakallah to Abu Zayd for the Fatwa.

Also note Akhi that the Ulema had strict guidelines on such actions, even to the extent of who could do it and who could not and at what level one must be at to do it etc. Insha'allah ill try to get the Fatwa of Shaikh Izz Ad Din Sultan al Awliya.

[karategirl]

Al salam alakum wa rahmat Allah



Barak Allah feek brother salman, and may Allah increase you in knowledge and iman, and jazakum Allah khair to all the other brothers and sisters who contributed in the topic.

i quote brother GINN, as saying "However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it."
i am assuming ur talking about ibn al gyam al jawzi, ibn taymiya's student, right? enough said! (but if you would like more to be said, don't hesitate to ask)

i was told that those hadra dances differ becuase they are what different sheikhs saw when they watched the angles making zikr, so in that light i would like to ask those to refain from a tone other than that of respect when they talk of it, even if it appears to them to be strange/funny/stupid, etc.

but brother ginn u amused me, cos i checked ur mazhab, and it says ur hanafi. (i was expecting to see ether, non or hanabali )

Allah ehdeena wa ehdeekum
K.G.

[Mustafa]

Wa alaikum as salaam, sister karategirl

Ibn al Jawzi and Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziya are two different people, sister.

Ibn al Jawzi wasn't talking about the hadra itself, but about what people were doing at the gatherings, and the type of people that were attending. And Allah knows best.

Wa salam
Your brother in Islam

[Shaykhs-Pir Sahib]

as salamu alaykum

the hadra is something which has been attacked for a long time. in a similar fashion, so too has the mawlid an-nabi. i understand your doubts about the hadra sidi GenN.

>>However it appears to be a doubful matter at the very least, and so i would most certainly stay away from it, especially when someone as great as ibn jawzi is against it.

read sidi musa's response again. ibn al-Jawzi was against the hadra because of what was occurring in it. similarly, many of the classical scholars that were against the mawlid, were in actual fact against what was happening in the mawlid celebration, not the mawlid itself.

>>what about whilring dervisehes what do you guys think of them. It was pictures of them when the hdar/dance was metnioned.

the whirling dervishes were originally an authentic practice, and it was essentially the hadra performed by the mevlevi sufi tariqa. as far as i am aware (i may be wrong), the tariqa is basically extinct now. any remnants are likely to pseudo-sufi's, especially those that tour the world and have displays for the non-muslim audiences and clearly go against shari'a.

i too, brother had my doubts about the hadra. in fact, it is known that the great shaykh Murabit al-Hajj, one of the shaykhs of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf does not approve of the hadra. In addition, i am told the ba-alawi from hadaramawt do not approve of the standing swaying, although they have their own hadra which does not involve dancing.

having said that, it is clear from some of the classical fatawa and classical scholars that the hadra is within the bounds of shari'a and is certainly mubah at the least. Remember that the Shadhilli tariq, the 'tariqa of the ulama and awliya' (meaning it has produced great numbers of scholars of the inward AND outward e.g. Sidi Ahmad Zarruq, ibn Ata'illah etc) has its own hadra too. Bear in mind that we have some of the greatest fuqaha in the world today who are shadhilli. E.g. Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi and Shaykh Nuh Keller

this alone convinces me that the hadra is NOT doubtful, and is in fact an 'accepted sunna' not a 'prescribed sunna' as Shaykh Hamza once said.

Allah knows best

'Abd al-Wakil