Why...

[mogamadza]

Br Abdassamad,

How do you declare it as local islamic politics etc etc.., when you haven't even approached them! When you may critcize an Alim who is approachable, It is not outside your domain. When you declare that your aim in reviving a new Islamic Economy is for all muslim Ummah, It is definitely not outside your domain to consider S.Africa within that Ummah since major work in Islamic Economics is springing out from here.

AFAIK Brother Abu Hajira, the Gold Dinar was launched in South Africa at the International Fiqh conference in Pretoria - I think that was in 1998, not sure though. Br. Umar Vadillo in the time that followed met with many Ulema in South Africa to explain /propose the dinar and dirham.

Moulana Imran Hosein has also met with many of them and we extended an open invitation to all Ulema for the the seminar on Ribah in 2002, I think 2 showed up.

Perhaps we can arrange a special session with Darul Ifta in October/November 2007 when Moulana Imran will be with us in South Africa for 3 months, insha Allah. I am sure that representatives from Shaykh Abdalqadir's Jama'ah will be glad to attend. I shall endeavour to call you so we can discuss, insha Allah.

[Abdassamad Clarke]

We pray that Allah guides the learned Assistant Mufti Vawda to a better way than this, never in any of Moulana Imran Hosein's extensive visits to South Africa have I ever heard him using such disrespectful words for even his harshest critic. Im shocked.

The eradication of Ribah from the economy in Arabia, was achieved by a three stage process, as can be determined from the the chronology of the revelation of verses regarding it, in the Glorious Quran.

Perhaps from a juristic point of view the ideal is to derive absolute judgment on a matter and then declare it as halal, haram, makhrouh etc, and from this point of view the Mufti may have miss-understood the synopsis of one issue in a larger body of work, presented in the original question.

While Moulana Imran considers paper money to be Haram, he also recognises that it is very difficult to simply stop using it.
He advocates the use of the process used in the Quran to rid oneself and an economy (micro or macro) of Ribah.

The first stage is the recognition of the seriouness of Ribah and its function in the things we have become accustomed to, then a mass program of public education around these matters - public education, not unenforceable fatwa's.

The other two stages are a bit more complex, but there are others (like Murabitun) who have allready reached this point (to a certain degree.)

In the 2nd stage there is an embargo on all new ribah transactions but existing ribah based transactions (loans and agreements made before this stage) are allowed to continue. So here, for example, you can keep the paper money you have, but would convert all new paper money to Gold Dinars, as well as work towards converting the savings you have. etc

The Third stage entails the final ban on all ribah transactions, new or old and at this stage the paper money would be totally haram and disallowed in the economy. The last two stages may only be possible in a community that is obedient to their Amir and who have control of territory and the economy in that territory - even the size of a village.

Beware that this is a very simplified version of the stages, for a simple understanding of the topic only.



The learned Mufti unfortunately reveals a flaw in his extensive knowlege on the subject, by assuming that you would need as many coins as there are units printed on paper money - hence his reference to the "trunk of coins", a common, yet defective argument in this matter.

Considering that from South Africa, it costs around R 25 000 per person to perform Hajj, the ~37 Gold Dinars needed (@R680 each) would easily fit in a little purse!

And this is not even taking into account the devastating effect that ribah has had on the price of goods - they call it inflation. For example a chicken in the time of the Prophet cost 1 dirham, today it still costs (more or less) the value of one dirham ( around R26 ). The price in Rands, however has increased from around ~R 11/kg, ~10 years ago to the current price of ~R26/kg !
Measure the paper money value of anything else over time and you will see the same effect - Hajj in year 2000 - R 15 000 per person, Hajj in 2007 - R 25 000 to R35000 per person!

The perplexing nature of modern economics is such that few grasp it fully - How many times have you seen "Senior Economists" on TV, saying they really dont know why the exchange rate is dropping so badly, or why inflation is so high this year, or why in Zimbabwe you now need almost 3million Zimbabwe Dollars to buy a bread! and these responses come from those who have studied the modern capitalist economy for 7 years, just to receive a basic degree!
My point is that is a complex subject and while the learned Mufti may have vast experience and knowledge in Islamic Sciences, perhaps, and with respect, his understanding of economics is a bit rusty in certain places.


Abu Hajira, as you are closer to the Mufti, I would like to know his opinion on something within his realm of knowlege: (its related to the topic)


Question : Why did the Prophet allow the unequal and delayed transaction for the camels but prohibit it for the dates?

[Note that this question is for the Mufti/ Abu Hajira only, I would appreciate it if only they would try to answer it.]

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Lastly brother, I do appreciate your input on the discussion and understand that some of the words are not yours, please accept my post in the spirit of humility, enquiry, learning and sharing in which it was prepared..

Go in peace,

Mogamat

Sidi Mogamat,

As-salamu alaikum,

Further to your post about a strategic way of implementing this, let me make a few points. First, the key to the entire matter is always in the deen and in the worship of Allah, and in this case specifically in the zakah.

If we restore the single concept that the zakah is an act of worship just like the salah, and not merely a social measure to alleviate poverty, then we are on the royal road to success. That is because once we are clear that it is an act of worship, then it must follow the same rules as worship in that it must be done as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, did it, and as the Rightly Guided Khulafa did it, and as transmitted by the four schools of fiqh.

Now this means that it has to be paid with gold and silver. No one in the classical history of Islam before the colonial era has ever allowed it to be paid with anything else.

Now we Muslims have a third currency after gold and silver, which is the flous. We have had that since the earliest days, and both Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah spoke about it and gave rulings for dealing with it. This is the small currency of copper nickel coinage, whose value is less than half a dirham and which is used for small transactions for which gold and silver are too large as denominations. This has rules in the fiqh.

The Imams except for Imam Abu Hanifah agreed that it is not estimated among a person's wealth when they assess their nisab, except for traders who are dealing in it a great deal. All of them agreed that you cannot pay zakah with flous. Indeed, the authors of the books of the Waqf Ihlas in Turkey quote Imam Abu Yusuf in his Kitab al-Kharaj as instructing Harun ar-Rashid that he must not collect zakah in flous.

Once we have certainty on this point, then the Muslims as a nation will begin to pay their zakah in gold and silver. That is the only starting point for the return of gold and silver among us. And Allah knows best.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad

[laughinglion]

It seems that the matter is so simple (as Hajj `Abdu's-Samad has lucidly explained above/below). Yet people seem to want to conflate matters. In believing that the aim is to bring the global economy to its knees through returning to halal currencies people place before themselves a seemingly insurmountable object, this leads to one justyfing to oneself doing nothing, or worse. One often hears the cry, "What can we do?". When one understands that it is a matter of worshipping Allah as He has commanded, His Rasool has legislated and those who have followed him have established as the sunnah one must recognise it is a matter of taqwa, from this position the objective is easily obtainable.

Concerning the benefits of Taqwa... http://www.bogvaerker.dk/Bookwright/Taqwa.html

As-salamu alaikum,

Further to your post about a strategic way of implementing this, let me make a few points. First, the key to the entire matter is always in the deen and in the worship of Allah, and in this case specifically in the zakah.

If we restore the single concept that the zakah is an act of worship just like the salah, and not merely a social measure to alleviate poverty, then we are on the royal road to success. That is because once we are clear that it is an act of worship, then it must follow the same rules as worship in that it must be done as the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, did it, and as the Rightly Guided Khulafa did it, and as transmitted by the four schools of fiqh.

Now this means that it has to be paid with gold and silver. No one in the classical history of Islam before the colonial era has ever allowed it to be paid with anything else.

Now we Muslims have a third currency after gold and silver, which is the flous. We have had that since the earliest days, and both Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah spoke about it and gave rulings for dealing with it. This is the small currency of copper nickel coinage, whose value is less than half a dirham and which is used for small transactions for which gold and silver are too large as denominations. This has rules in the fiqh.

The Imams except for Imam Abu Hanifah agreed that it is not estimated among a person's wealth when they assess their nisab, except for traders who are dealing in it a great deal. All of them agreed that you cannot pay zakah with flous. Indeed, the authors of the books of the Waqf Ihlas in Turkey quote Imam Abu Yusuf in his Kitab al-Kharaj as instructing Harun ar-Rashid that he must not collect zakah in flous.

Once we have certainty on this point, then the Muslims as a nation will begin to pay their zakah in gold and silver. That is the only starting point for the return of gold and silver among us. And Allah knows best.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad

[abuhajira]

We pray that Allah guides the learned Assistant Mufti Vawda to a better way than this, never in any of Moulana Imran Hosein's extensive visits to South Africa have I ever heard him using such disrespectful words for even his harshest critic. Im shocked.

The eradication of Ribah from the economy in Arabia, was achieved by a three stage process, as can be determined from the the chronology of the revelation of verses regarding it, in the Glorious Quran.

[Note that this question is for the Mufti/ Abu Hajira only, I would appreciate it if only they would try to answer it.]

-------------

Lastly brother, I do appreciate your input on the discussion and understand that some of the words are not yours, please accept my post in the spirit of humility, enquiry, learning and sharing in which it was prepared..

Go in peace,

Mogamat

InshAllah I will relay your message.

[abuhajira]

I have relayed the message. Maulana Imran has said that he is a bit tied up at moment with the Shariah Compliant Campaign Annual Gathering coming up and other commitments as well, but he will, in his earliest convenience reply the question raised, inshAllah


Also from my side, I cannot contribute much due to my classes and work.. perhaps on the weekend I will go through the posts and input if any.. I do have some to say.. but due to time consumption i am afaid of starting it

[mospike]

Wal asr innal insaana lafi Gusr

[mogamadza]

I have relayed the message. Maulana Imran has said that he is a bit tied up at moment with the Shariah Compliant Campaign Annual Gathering coming up and other commitments as well, but he will, in his earliest convenience reply the question raised, inshAllah

Seeing as we dealing with two Moulana Imran's I suggest we qualify their names in the future. For the records your are refereing to Moulana Imran Vawda, while I am refering to the work of Moulana Imran Hosein.

Insha Allah, I hope to hear from you soon, even if you do not find the answer. As As we are specialists, Tuesday 4th should give us all enough time to have thought about this in reference to our knowlege on the subject.
I shall revisit it then , insha Allah!

ma'asalamah,