Murabitun

[Abdassamad Clarke]

none of the above is something to refute.
the shaykh seems to have good knowledge of history and politics, although his interpretation of events may be disagreeable to some.

however, there are some unorthodox beliefs (or fiqh should i say) among them, for example:


1. giving bay'a to some unauthorised amir is fard 'ayn and failing to do so equals to death in jahiliyya - following the hadith literally.


2. giving bay'a to an amir is the condition for joining the tariqa

3. only ibn khaldun's view of mahdi is important

4. only shaykh 'illish's over-a-century-old fatwa on paper money is important

5. only 'amal of madina is important

6. zakat is a fallen pillar - that is, it is not legitimately paid these days

7. the niqab is unislamic and a defiance of the messenger of allah sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam



wallahu a'lam

As-salamu alaikum,

The material above is a curious pastiche, which is barely recognisable, of actual positions held by the pupils of Shaykh Abdalqadir, may Allah protect him.

First, who would 'authorise' an amir? Ah! presumably a Caliph? If you believe that houses can be built starting from the chimney, proceeding to the roof, then the walls, then floors and foundations, I would suggest that a better way is to start with foundations.

As to the 'death in jahiliyyah', then that is clearly the literal wording of the relevant hadith. Perhaps you don't like that hadith and the other strong texts on amirate and bay'ah that are sometimes quoted.

As to membership of the branch of the Darqawi tariqah that Shaykh Abdalqadir represents being dependent on allegiance to an amir, that is quite simple: the shari'ah is 'over' the tariqah, and that is the teaching of the Shadhili-Darqawi tariqah (and I believe of the genuine Naqshabandi and other tariqahs of the people of Islam). If you want texts on that, I am happy to help insha'Allah. Therefore a precondition of being a mureed of Shaykh Abdalqadir is to have pledged allegiance to an amir and to be involved in the establishment of the deen outwardly.

As to the silly suggestion that only Ibn Khaldun's position on the Mahdi is of interest to us, that is certainly not my position, and I translated Ibn Khaldun's chapter from the Muqaddimah for Umar Vadillo's magisterial book.

I take the view that Imam at-Tahawi's view, Ibn Abi Zayd's view, al-Bukhari's view, Muslim's view, and Malik's view are important, for none of them mention the Mahdi by name in their hadith collections or aqidahs.

However, none of that amounts to a denial of the Mahdi; far from it. It means that the Mahdi is not an obligatory element of the aqidah of a Muslim in the way that the return of Sayyiduna 'Isa, peace be upon him, is, or at the best it is a matter that is not agreed upon among the 'ulama.

As to those who regularly announce that they are in intimate contact with the Mahdi, and that he is coming on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a time, and that the Last Day is going to happen on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a time, then if you wish to believe that, there is certainly nothing that I can do about it. You will not be the first people in history to have believed such a thing, and you might find the histories of such movements interesting. That was the next part of Ibn Khaldun's work: a history of the many movements even up to his time that had revolved around the re-appearance of the Mahdi.

Again, the sentence about Shaykh Illish's fatwa is a cynical mis-statement, and deliberately so, of our position.

What is interesting and important to us is the position of Imam Malik in the Mudawwanah in what he said about flous, and the ample material from the Muwatta and Mudawwanah on the nature of halal (and haram) trade, and the position of Abu Yusuf in his instructing Harun ar-Rashid not to collect the zakat in flous, and also the group of Ulama who in my hearing in the city of Potsdam endorsed our position on this matter and on the zakat, and then advised us, with some wisdom, about ways of going about it.

As to Shaykh Illish, may Allah be merciful to him, he is important to us, for he was an 'alim who held to the deen when traitors like Muhammad Abduh colluded with the British and issued his most abhorrent fatwa that interest is not usury! Presumably, then you are happy to be in such company if you do not like the company of the noble Illish.

Moreover, Illish also represents something important. Since ulama such as Abduh were subverted by banking and began to rewrite the shari'ah to fit in with the emerging new world order, then it has become more and more important to take our deen from ulama from before this rewriting, from before the colonial period, particularly as relates to trade, finance and zakat.

As to the silly assertion about amal, we are Malikis. Imam Malik is the Imam of all the people of hadith, his hadith being collected in all the sahih works that followed him by men who were pupils of his pupils, just as he is the Imam of the Imams in fiqh, having taught all of the other Imams either directly, as is the case with Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybani, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam ash-Shafi'i and through him Imam Ahmad, may Allah be pleased with all of them.

We hold to what Malik and the people of his school have always held, and what many of the early salaf held to: that hadith are misleading except to those who know fiqh, that the 'amal is more reliable than hadith, that one thousand transmitting from one thousand is more reliable than one transmitting from one, for by one transmitting from one the deen will be snatched from our hands. All of those are quotes from the salaf. Much of them are stated by Qadi Iyad in his books and many of the other Maliki ulama. You may find it uncomfortable to hear them, but what can I do about that?

But as to the hadith, there are no hadith higher and purer than the hadith of Imam Malik. Wherever he had one, Imam al-Bukhari began his chapter with a hadith from Malik. Ask whomever you will among the ulama from whatever school and you will find that Malik is the star in the science of hadith. And we are Malikis and adhere to what Malik adhered to. We by no means dismiss the hadith.

But that zakat is a fallen pillar is demonstrably true. Where are the collectors? Where are the amirs authorising the collectors? Where is the coinage (Abu Yusuf told Harun ar-Rashid that it had to be collected in gold and silver coins and NOT in flous). Why is it sent to the other side of the earth, and not spent on the local community, or the nearest community in the case where the local community has absolutely no need? (And anyone who tells you that there are no poor Muslims here is seriously in error).

Now, if you have some reasoned argument against any of the above points, rather than snide and cynical mis-statements of them, I would be very interested to hear them. Please bring arguments from the deen.

And Allah knows best.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad Clarke

[Sad ibn Abu Waqqas]

Sidi Abdassamad,

It is good to have someone here from the Murabitun themselves: no doubt we all have many erroneous beleifs about them. It would be helpful for us to hear your thoughts on a number of issues concerning this movement.

What was the motivation behind the closure of the Ihsan Mosque in Norwich in the mid-nineties? Were you residing in the mosque at the period (at least several months if I recall correctly) that the mosque was closed? How does one justify denying Muslim men and women the right to pray in a mosque?

Here is some media footage for those who may not know about this story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCZytYbGgPU

[Sunni_Student786]

....
As to the silly assertion about amal, we are Malikis. Imam Malik is the Imam of all the people of hadith, his hadith being collected in all the sahih works that followed him by men who were pupils of his pupils, just as he is the Imam of the Imams in fiqh, having taught all of the other Imams either directly, as is the case with Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan ash-Shaybani, Imam Abu Yusuf, Imam ash-Shafi'i and through him Imam Ahmad, may Allah be pleased with all of them.

We hold to what Malik and the people of his school have always held, and what many of the early salaf held to: that hadith are misleading except to those who know fiqh, that the 'amal is more reliable than hadith, that one thousand transmitting from one thousand is more reliable than one transmitting from one, for by one transmitting from one the deen will be snatched from our hands. All of those are quotes from the salaf. Much of them are stated by Qadi Iyad in his books and many of the other Maliki ulama. You may find it uncomfortable to hear them, but what can I do about that?

...

But is not the tone employed in many Murabitun writings, when discussing other madhabs, one wherein the writer appears to "talk down" to followers of others madhabs and allege that they were mistaken almost completely in their perspectives on fiqh? I don't get the sense that they "believe that they are right with the possibility of being wrong" or that the founders and followers of other madhabs are "wrong with the possibility of being right".

I was reading through Root Islamic Education just last week and came away with that impression after reading nearly three separate chapters.

I'd rather not go through the text and knit pick by quoting sentences and passages were such sentiments were expressed, but my point is that the partisanship shown to the Maliki madhab sometimes makes me more than uneasy, not because I follow Hanafi fiqh in my dad to day activities, but because few "Traditional" Muslims appear to be as intolerant of differences as some Murabitun writers.

Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the impression that one gets after reading many Murabitun writings, not to mention the fact that the tone is almost always grim and ominous.

[Murad]

As-salamu alaikum,

Wa Aleykum Salam

As to the 'death in jahiliyyah', then that is clearly the literal wording of the relevant hadith. Perhaps you don't like that hadith and the other strong texts on amirate and bay'ah that are sometimes quoted.

Please post the Hadith for veiwing.

Is it applicable to groups who are NGO's (non governmental affiliated) working within a social norm capacity and at a secular level?

As to membership of the branch of the Darqawi tariqah that Shaykh Abdalqadir represents being dependent on allegiance to an amir, that is quite simple: the shari'ah is 'over' the tariqah, and that is the teaching of the Shadhili-Darqawi tariqah (and I believe of the genuine Naqshabandi and other tariqahs of the people of Islam). If you want texts on that, I am happy to help insha'Allah. Therefore a precondition of being a mureed of Shaykh Abdalqadir is to have pledged allegiance to an amir and to be involved in the establishment of the deen outwardly.

an allegience to an amir is a precondition to being a murid to a religious shaykh? correct me if i haven't understood this correctly.

As to the silly suggestion that only Ibn Khaldun's position on the Mahdi is of interest to us, that is certainly not my position, and I translated Ibn Khaldun's chapter from the Muqaddimah for Umar Vadillo's magisterial book.

Does Ibn Khaldun flatly deny the coming of the Mahdi? and were their interpolations directing to veiwpoints of rejection of the concept instead of rejection of particular hadiths under anlaysis? Yes I do understand that there are reports of partisan groups who will fight against the Mahdi because of his attributes not being concillitary to their own or of their promotions of Mahdi only becuase of the attributes being concilatary with their own while overlooking the other criterias.

I take the view that Imam at-Tahawi's view, Ibn Abi Zayd's view, al-Bukhari's view, Muslim's view, and Malik's view are important, for none of them mention the Mahdi by name in their hadith collections or aqidahs.

are their views rejection of the coming of the Mahdi? There is a hadith in Sahih Bukhari mentioning the coming of a leader without the naming in the chapter of Fitan and in the same hadith in Abu Dawud the name is mentioned.

However, none of that amounts to a denial of the Mahdi; far from it.

By consensus or by opinion?

It means that the Mahdi is not an obligatory element of the aqidah of a Muslim in the way that the return of Sayyiduna 'Isa, peace be upon him, is, or at the best it is a matter that is not agreed upon among the 'ulama.

The only matter that is not agreed upon by the Ulama for the belief in coming of Hasret Mahdi is for it being an obligatory element of the aqidah, meaning whether anyone denies it will will become a kafir or not. But to claim to be the Mahdi that is not in accordance to the consensus of the Ullamah is tantamount to disbeleif and therefore punishable as shown by history.

As to those who regularly announce that they are in intimate contact with the Mahdi, and that he is coming on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a time, and that the Last Day is going to happen on such-and-such a day at such-and-such a time, then if you wish to believe that, there is certainly nothing that I can do about it. You will not be the first people in history to have believed such a thing, and you might find the histories of such movements interesting.

To claim intimate contact with the Mahdi does not amount to disbelief, to claim one being the Mahdi in direct contrast to the consensus does.

That was the next part of Ibn Khaldun's work: a history of the many movements even up to his time that had revolved around the re-appearance of the Mahdi.

Yes in particular of boisterious exclusivism from the relation of being a Fatimid, politically and socially. All Mahdi claiments were labelled false after scrutiny by the relevant authorities. To be partisan and deny the real Mahdi becuase his attributes dont match up with re-emergance of Imam Hasan Askari will tantamount to disbelief and fitna amongst the Muslims.

But as to the hadith, there are no hadith higher and purer than the hadith of Imam Malik. Wherever he had one, Imam al-Bukhari began his chapter with a hadith from Malik. Ask whomever you will among the ulama from whatever school and you will find that Malik is the star in the science of hadith. And we are Malikis and adhere to what Malik adhered to. We by no means dismiss the hadith.

However Imam Maliks Muwatta is not included among the six books of hadith.

But that zakat is a fallen pillar is demonstrably true. Where are the collectors? Where are the amirs authorising the collectors? Where is the coinage (Abu Yusuf told Harun ar-Rashid that it had to be collected in gold and silver coins and NOT in flous). Why is it sent to the other side of the earth, and not spent on the local community, or the nearest community in the case where the local community has absolutely no need? (And anyone who tells you that there are no poor Muslims here is seriously in error).

Yes true, there will be a time when we will search for someone to give charity to and we will not be able to find them, until that time happens how can there be the supposition that Zakah is a fallen pillar. It sounds all foriegn to me.

And Allah knows best.

[MohammadMufti]

when traitors like Muhammad Abduh colluded with the British and issued his most abhorrent fatwa that interest is not usury!

Bro, can you cite this? Do you mean ibn Abdul Wahab issued such a fatwa? Also, I have heard it from a number of these members that your sheikh has placed a ban on niqab, and you did not cover that (it was one of the concerns raised by that "sahih" baba).

[mospike]

I get a strong feeling that the Murabitun look down upon those who dis agree with them and they use 'Intellect' as a weapon to shoot down the un educated,,,,,,

Laughinglion plays on emotions and keeps referring to Ghibat where as we are discussing issues in the open on the internet, if this is Ghiba then this Forum is a Horn of Shaytaan........

I have done allot of reading on the Murabitun websites in the last couple of weeks and those sincere notes that I have read from Shaykh Abul Qadir as Sufi are very thought provoking and deep, it is definitely worth a read if you are interested in the Shaykhs outlook on the current day status of the Ummah.

[Abdassamad Clarke]

Sidi Abdassamad,

It is good to have someone here from the Murabitun themselves: no doubt we all have many erroneous beleifs about them. It would be helpful for us to hear your thoughts on a number of issues concerning this movement.

What was the motivation behind the closure of the Ihsan Mosque in Norwich in the mid-nineties? Were you residing in the mosque at the period (at least several months if I recall correctly) that the mosque was closed? How does one justify denying Muslim men and women the right to pray in a mosque?

Here is some media footage for those who may not know about this story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCZytYbGgPU

wa alaikum as-salam,

Was not resident in Norwich at the time, and really have not completely understood what happened. There was apparently an almost paramilitary attempt to take over the mosque at one point; that I have heard. What you must question is the fact of people making a public 'demonstration' out of the prayer and a media issue of the matter. That is something very unusual for Muslims to do.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad Clarke

[Abdassamad Clarke]

Wa Aleykum Salam


Please post the Hadith for veiwing.


Is it applicable to groups who are NGO's (non governmental affiliated) working within a social norm capacity and at a secular level?


an allegience to an amir is a precondition to being a murid to a religious shaykh? correct me if i haven't understood this correctly.

Does Ibn Khaldun flatly deny the coming of the Mahdi?


and were their interpolations directing to veiwpoints of rejection of the concept instead of rejection of particular hadiths under anlaysis?


Yes I do understand that there are reports of partisan groups who will fight against the Mahdi because of his attributes not being concillitary to their own or of their promotions of Mahdi only becuase of the attributes being concilatary with their own while overlooking the other criterias.



are their views rejection of the coming of the Mahdi? There is a hadith in Sahih Bukhari mentioning the coming of a leader without the naming in the chapter of Fitan and in the same hadith in Abu Dawud the name is mentioned.



By consensus or by opinion?



The only matter that is not agreed upon by the Ulama for the belief in coming of Hasret Mahdi is for it being an obligatory element of the aqidah, meaning whether anyone denies it will will become a kafir or not. But to claim to be the Mahdi that is not in accordance to the consensus of the Ullamah is tantamount to disbeleif and therefore punishable as shown by history.



To claim intimate contact with the Mahdi does not amount to disbelief, to claim one being the Mahdi in direct contrast to the consensus does.

Yes in particular of boisterious exclusivism from the relation of being a Fatimid, politically and socially. All Mahdi claiments were labelled false after scrutiny by the relevant authorities.



To be partisan and deny the real Mahdi becuase his attributes dont match up with re-emergance of Imam Hasan Askari will tantamount to disbelief and fitna amongst the Muslims.


However Imam Maliks Muwatta is not included among the six books of hadith.

Yes true, there will be a time when we will search for someone to give charity to and we will not be able to find them, until that time happens how can there be the supposition that Zakah is a fallen pillar. It sounds all foriegn to me.

And Allah knows best.

As-salamu alaikum,

First of all, let me make it clear that I do not speak as an official 'Murabit', but rather from the perspective of what I know of the deen.

Would rather not cite the hadith, because I do not want to use hadith in a slanging match. You know perfectly well the hadith surely?

What on earth does your sentence on NGOs mean? Are you going to take that entire concept into the deen of Islam, and if so what does that mean?

There is something very serious that you have not understood about Islam itself, if you can talk about a 'religious' shaykh. What separation can there possibly be here?

Ibn Khaldun first of all showed that each hadith on the Mahdi, except for one from Sahih Muslim that, however, does not name him but speaks of a caliph in later times, is weak according to the scholars of hadith. Then he says that when the Mahdi does appear it will be according to the political forces he has already outlined in his book, and not miraculously as an apocalypical figure. Without exception modern people are anticipating a miraculous figure who will save the Muslims. That is not going to happen.

Not all the hadith in the six books are sahih. That is Ibn Khaldun's point.

No one accused the one who spoke of being in contact with the Mahdi of disbelief. You read further than has been said.

Where are these authorities who dealt with the claimants to being Mahdi? Most of the claimants died in battle.

You are still talking about an apocalyptical Mahdi. And this is utterly irrelevant until such a figure appears. It is a waste of time to talk about it.

Imam Malik's work is more sahih than the six. It is only not included among them because it is not exclusively a work of hadith. The ulama of hadith have an awe of the Muwatta. Shah Abdalaziz ad-Dihlawi, the son of Shah Waliullah, wrote a book Bustan al-Muhaddithin on the scholars of hadith and their works. The first book he mentions is the Muwatta which he gives 43 pages. The hadith collections of the Imams of the madhhabs get 4 or 5 pages. Sahih al-Bukhari comes next with 6 pages. As-Suyuti and Ibn Hajar both said that the Muwatta is entirely sahih without anything being excluded. I could fill books with quotes on the high standing of Malik and the Muwatta.

Zakat is a fallen pillar because if I describe to you the way that zakat happened at the time of the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and at the time of the Khulafa ar-Rashidun, and right down to the end of the caliphate, and if I outline the demands of the fiqh, then you will realise that we do not have zakat. It has a form and a fiqh just as the prayer does. And we do not observe that.

And Allah knows best.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad

[Sad ibn Abu Waqqas]

wa alaikum as-salam,

Was not resident in Norwich at the time, and really have not completely understood what happened.

Then please share with us your partial understanding of why the Murabitun chose to close off a community's mosque without even a word of explanation, locking themselves in for several months and preventing other Muslims from worshipping there.

I want to know what were the Murabitun motivations for undertaking such a bizarre and unprecedented action.

You are the current Imam of the mosque, right?

What you must question is the fact of people making a public 'demonstration' out of the prayer and a media issue of the matter. That is something very unusual for Muslims to do.

I don't want to change our focus. Let's deal with this question first:
Why on earth would the Murabitun, a group that claims to work for the establishment of the deen, shut down a mosque and prevent people from praying there? You must have *some* understanding of this.

[Abdassamad Clarke]

Wa Aleykum Salam



Please post the Hadith for veiwing.

Is it applicable to groups who are NGO's (non governmental affiliated) working within a social norm capacity and at a secular level?



an allegience to an amir is a precondition to being a murid to a religious shaykh? correct me if i haven't understood this correctly.



Does Ibn Khaldun flatly deny the coming of the Mahdi? and were their interpolations directing to veiwpoints of rejection of the concept instead of rejection of particular hadiths under anlaysis? Yes I do understand that there are reports of partisan groups who will fight against the Mahdi because of his attributes not being concillitary to their own or of their promotions of Mahdi only becuase of the attributes being concilatary with their own while overlooking the other criterias.



are their views rejection of the coming of the Mahdi? There is a hadith in Sahih Bukhari mentioning the coming of a leader without the naming in the chapter of Fitan and in the same hadith in Abu Dawud the name is mentioned.



By consensus or by opinion?



The only matter that is not agreed upon by the Ulama for the belief in coming of Hasret Mahdi is for it being an obligatory element of the aqidah, meaning whether anyone denies it will will become a kafir or not. But to claim to be the Mahdi that is not in accordance to the consensus of the Ullamah is tantamount to disbeleif and therefore punishable as shown by history.



To claim intimate contact with the Mahdi does not amount to disbelief, to claim one being the Mahdi in direct contrast to the consensus does.



Yes in particular of boisterious exclusivism from the relation of being a Fatimid, politically and socially. All Mahdi claiments were labelled false after scrutiny by the relevant authorities. To be partisan and deny the real Mahdi becuase his attributes dont match up with re-emergance of Imam Hasan Askari will tantamount to disbelief and fitna amongst the Muslims.



However Imam Maliks Muwatta is not included among the six books of hadith.



Yes true, there will be a time when we will search for someone to give charity to and we will not be able to find them, until that time happens how can there be the supposition that Zakah is a fallen pillar. It sounds all foriegn to me.

And Allah knows best.

Bro, can you cite this? Do you mean ibn Abdul Wahab issued such a fatwa? Also, I have heard it from a number of these members that your sheikh has placed a ban on niqab, and you did not cover that (it was one of the concerns raised by that "sahih" baba).

Muhammad Abduh was 'appointed' Mufti of Egypt by the colonialist British, and he then issued a fatwa that interest is not usury. The British were establishing the Egyptian Post Office at the time which offered interest on deposits.

As to women's dress, I personally do not want to deal with that issue as I regard it as a dereliction of our duties as men that we regard the deen as being equivalent to what clothes women wear. Men ought to take on the manly issues of struggling in the way of Allah, and I do not mean terrorist or revolutionary insurrection.

As-salamu alaikum,


Abdassamad