Major Aqeedah Question

[Omar HH]

I was just explaining aqeedah to someone about how Allah (SWT) exists without a location and how he created time and space and therefore is not bound to them, when the thought hit me.

All of the events in the so called "creation history" are tied to time. Like we say, before Allah (SWT) created time and space it was just Allah (SWT). Does that not have time in it, because there is a before?

And like the chronological argument of the guiding helper says basically that before everything there was just Allah (SWT). Allah (SWT) is the First and the Last. Well, this is also bound to time isn't it?

"Before Allah (SWT) created time" appears to be a logical contradiction.

I have no doubt that this can be explained by the beliefs of Ahlul Sunnah wa Jama'ah i'm just confused.

Jazakallahu Khayrun

[Mossy]

You're a human stuck with your arrow of time, it doesn't make sense that you could understand something outside creation.

If it helps, you can think of it like this (according to modern day physics). Please note the following will confuse and doesn't make any sense, please skip to the penultimate para.

E = MC^2.

Great, fantastic formula - energy is proportional to mass..

Now, what's interesting is if we look to the big bang and our perceptions of it.

From "nothing", energy comes expands etc.

However, according to theory, time and matter are inextricably linked.

Hence with creation of space, time is also created.

But, and this is the interesting bit - time isn't linear as space isn't linear (yet).

So it's like each second is half the length of the next second.

Keep on doing this all the way back..

And you never get there (you can keep halving forever).

Assuming of course there is no such thing as an atom of time

In classical terms I believe time (as we see it (zaman)) and duration (as in something happens, then something else happens as occured before creation (ie we can't understand - mada)) are differentiated.

I hope that's not too far off the mark (from what I remember, I don't think it's in accordance with the GH theory - I can't remember exactly what that was, but there's an interpretation that's in line with that (as I remember thinking about it). Erm, no time to read now, whoops).

[Mossy]

Man, I owe comments on this:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375

[Omar HH]

Hmm... I think a basic reading of the Guiding Helper Book 2 on Beliefs (Ashari Aqeedah) actually explains this now that I look back at it. Wow I must have read this 10,000 times and this time I totally got something else out of it.

Explanatory Notes:
98 The second belief is that this Being, Allah, has always existed without ever having a beginning. He has no
preceding cause but is the Preceding Cause for everything else. This is possible for Him since He is
independent of time. Rather, He is the One Who has created time and made it only apply to created things and
not to Himself.
99 The third belief is that Allah will continue to exist and His own existence will never come to an end.
Furthermore, He is unaffected by the passage of time. He along with His attributes are stable and do not
experience change since it only applies to created things.
100 The fourth belief is that Allah is absolutely independent from everything else. He does not need anything,
but everything else needs Him. He does not need a place or time to be present in nor does He need someone to
choose a state of existence for Him. What this entails is that Hi

[Omar HH]

Man, I owe comments on this:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=375

Actually thats the exact same argument in the Ihya Illum id-Din by Imam al-Ghazali (Rahmatallahu)'s belief section.

Yeah i've read this proof, and it's explanation, and it's "Notes and Sources" explanation too!

[Omar HH]

So technically time in definition is, from the guiding helper's various definitions, the flucuation of a sensory phenomena which I guess we can add now - "only applies to creation"... well wait a minute,
duh,
this makes sense,
Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani once even said "focus on the ABSOLUTE ONE WHO DOES NOT CHANGE"

Wow, so duh... if God cannot change then he is not bound by time because thats a measure of flucutuation of sensory phenomena. I guess that's a proof that God is not bound by time?
And

Allahu Alam.

[Mossy]

Heh, I was referring to it for ahsanirfan as you referred to it in your first post.

It's easy to get caught up in logical muddles when dealing with something beyond our perception..

It doesn't make sense for Allah (swt) to change as change is a function of time indeeed

[Muawiyah]

what's wrong with atomicity of time? It'll answer zeno's paradox