Scientific Basis for Saudi moon sighing?

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Asslamo Allaikum,

The Fiqh position of Saudi moon sighing has been discussed under the guidance/Fatawa of Ulama & its fairly clear for ALL to see and check.

Someone has stated on another thread, “…There are people who know about the subject matter better then the Ulama…”

There is nothing technically wrong with that statement as Ulama are NOT Astrophysicists.

I would like to humbly and requestfully propose the following :

1. If ANYONE knows of a scientist (Muslim or Non-Muslim) who considers Saudi moonsighing to be correct, please join the forum and enlighten us,

2. If such an expert is unable to come to the forum, please ask to post his/her findings or a scientific paper on the subject, supporting the Saudi position with clear scientific data

It would be of great benefit for all to investigate the scientific evidence.

However, for the record I would like to state that the vast majority (can’t say all) of scientists and researchers (Muslims & Non-Muslims) in UK & Saudia are unanimous of the error in Saudi moonsighing and in UK the local scientists (Muslims and Non-Muslims) regularly voice their disapproval in conferences held on the subject.

Royal Greenwich Observatory & NASA are pretty clear and unanimous.

Disclaimer! This POST shouldn’t be misunderstood to mean that I am proposing following the Observatory instead of naked eye sighting. I am simply pointing to the other side of the argument.

[sahih-baba]

salam

i am watching this page for any updates - shaykh afifi from oxford who regularly looks out for the hilal reports on this page for uk.

if any mosque near me just happens to follow the same day for ramadan, i go with that mosque.

[Yahya]

Even if there is scientific basis for the Saudi moonsighting, that still doesn't mean anything. The judgments of the religion are based on Qur'an, Sunnah, Ijmaa', and Qiyaas, (although in some madhhabs there may be more). I am not familiar with a madhhab that says that the opinion of a scientist (or group of scientists) is a proof upon which a religious ruling may be based.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Even if there is scientific basis for the Saudi moonsighting, that still doesn't mean anything. The judgments of the religion are based on Qur'an, Sunnah, Ijmaa', and Qiyaas, (although in some madhhabs there may be more). I am not familiar with a madhhab that says that the opinion of a scientist (or group of scientists) is a proof upon which a religious ruling may be based.

Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Brother,

Agreed & no SUCH claim is made in my post, perhaps my disclaimer wasn't clear enough (my fault).

[Yahya]

Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Brother,

Agreed & no SUCH claim is made in my post, perhaps my disclaimer wasn't clear enough (my fault).

You were clear. I understand that you are not advocating that position, nor trying to defend it.


I was just mentioning why I think scientific support is still unconvincing.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

You were clear. I understand that you are not advocating that position, nor trying to defend it.


I was just mentioning why I think scientific support is still unconvincing.

Asslamo Allaikum,

1) Scientific position is unconvincing on its own? Are you advocating that there is a difference of opinion?

2) Or when used to strengthen a position of Naked eye sighting?

Sorry, but I don't understand your point?

[Musleemah]

from what I know , saudis sight the moon
last year they had an interview with one of the men who go out and sight the moon every year, they have been doing it for many years, they sight it with naked eye.

[sahih-baba]

from what I know , saudis sight the moon
last year they had an interview with one of the men who go out and sight the moon every year, they have been doing it for many years, they sight it with naked eye.

that's what i don't understand, because according to calculations the hilal is impossible to see on a particular day - but the saudis see it!

must be seeing things...it happens.

i think they just go by their hijri calendars!....which can't really be drawn up for the following year, only the previous year.

[Colonel_Hardstone]

from what I know , saudis sight the moon
last year they had an interview with one of the men who go out and sight the moon every year, they have been doing it for many years, they sight it with naked eye.

Asslamo Allaikum Dear Respected Sister in Islam,

First & foremost everybody else! Sorry for producing this Fatwa for the upteenth time!

Sister! You have joined the debate too late & this isn't about FIQH, its about science...

Nevertheless here is the opinion of Shaykh Uthaymeen (RA):

[SIZE["][COLOR="["]FASTING OF ARAFAH AND THE SIGHTING OF THE MOON[/COLOR][/SIZE]

As we in India are keen to fast on the day of ‘Arafah, but the Hijri date in India is different from the date in Saudi: when the date in India is the 8th of the month, it is the 9th in Saudi. Should I fast on the 8th – which is the 9th in Saudi – or should I fast according to the date in India?

These are the type of question arrive every time when Ramadan comes or the day of Arafah comes Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: what if the day of ‘Arafah is different because of the moon being sighted at different times in different countries? Should we fast according to the moon sighting in the country where we are or according to the moon sighting in al-Haramayn (the two Holy Sanctuaries)?

He replied: This is based on a difference of opinion among the scholars: Is there only one moon sighting for the whole world or does it vary according to when the moon rises in different places?

The correct view is that it varies according to when the moon rises in different places. For example, if the moon is sighted in Makkah, and today is the ninth, and it is sighted elsewhere one day before Makkah, and the day of ‘Arafah in Makkah is the tenth for them, it is not permissible for them to fast on this day because it is Eid. Similarly if it so happens that they sight the moon after Makkah, and the 9th in Makkah is the 8th for them, then they should fast the day that is the 9th for them, which is the 10th in Makkah. This is the correct view, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you see it (the new moon) fast and when you see it break your fast.” Those who did not see the moon in their own location have not seen it. Just as people are unanimously agreed that the times for dawn and sunset vary according to their own location, so too the months are also worked out by location, just like the daily timings. Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 20.

And he (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about some people who worked in the Saudi embassy in a foreign country, who said that they were having a problem concerning the fast of Ramadaan and the fast on the day of ‘Arafah. The brothers there had split into three groups:

One group said: we will fast with Saudi and break the fast with Saudi.

Another group said: we will fast with the country where we are living and break the fast with them.

The last group said: we will fast Ramadaan with the country where we are living, but we will fast the day of ‘Arafah with Saudi.

They asked the Shaykh to provide them with a detailed answer concerning the Ramadaan fast and fasting the day of ‘Arafah, whilst noting that for the past five years, in the country where they were living neither Ramadaan nor the day of ‘Arafah had been observed on the same days as in Saudi; their Ramadaan started one or two days after it had been announced in Saudi, and sometimes three days after.

He replied:

In the name of Allaah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

The scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) differed concerning the issue when the moon is sighted in one part of the Muslim world and not in another: do all the Muslims have to act on the basis of that, or only those who sighted it and the people who live in the same region, or only those who sighted it and the people who live under the same government? There are many different points of view.

The most correct view is that the matter should be referred to those who have knowledge of it. If the moon rises at the same point for two countries they become like one country, so if it is sighted in one of them that ruling applies to the other. But if the rising points differ, then each country has its own ruling. This is the view favoured by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him); this is the apparent meaning of the texts of the Qur’aan and Sunnah and what is implied by analogy.

In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“So whoever of you sights (the crescent on the first night of) the month (of Ramadan i.e. is present at his home), he must observe Sawm (fasts) that month, and whoever is ill or on a journey, the same number [of days which one did not observe Sawm (fasts) must be made up] from other days. Allaah intends for you ease, and He does not want to make things difficult for you. (He wants that you) must complete the same number (of days), and that you must magnify Allaah [i.e. to say Takbeer (Allaahu Akbar: Allaah is the Most Great)] for having guided you so that you may be grateful to Him” [al-Baqarah 2:185]

What is implied by this verse is that whoever does not see it is not obliged to fast.

In the Sunnah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When you see it (the new moon) then fast, and when you see it, break your fast.” What is implied by this hadeeth is that if we did not see it we are not obliged to fast or to break the fast.

With regard to analogy, the times for starting and ending the fast each day should be worked out in each country on its own, according to the local times of sunrise and sunset. This is a point on which there is scholarly consensus. So you see the people in east Asia starting their fast before the people of west Asia, and breaking their fast before them, because dawn breaks for the former before the latter, and the sun sets for the former before the latter.

Once this is established with regard to the times for starting and ending the daily fast, it also applies to the start and end of the monthly fast. There is no difference between them.

But if many regions come under the same government, and the ruler gives the command for the fast to start or end, then his command must be followed, because this is a matter of scholarly dispute but the command of the ruler dispels that dispute.

Based on the above, you should fast and break your fast along with the people of the country where you are living, whether that is in accordance with your country of origin or not. Similarly on the day of ‘Arafah you should follow the country where you are living. [/COLOR][/SIZE]
by Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen, 28/8/1420 AH. Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 19.

[Yahya]

Asslamo Allaikum,

1) Scientific position is unconvincing on its own? Are you advocating that there is a difference of opinion?

2) Or when used to strengthen a position of Naked eye sighting?

Sorry, but I don't understand your point?

My point is that we follow the opinions of the mujtahids, not the opinions of the scientists. If the scientists support or oppose the mujtahids, we must still follow the mujtahids, so why bother even asking the scientists??