`ilm al-saa`at [Mawlana Soofi Saheb & Tullab]

[Husain]

Sayyidi, I don't think that is necessarily decisive proof in itself. Sayyidatuna Aisha [ra] was also of the opinion that our beloved Nabi [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] did not see Allah [subhanahu wa ta'ala] yet when Imam Ahmad was asked about this we all know his answer. So just because someone does not agree with Umm al-mu'mineen it does not mean we are against her in some way.
As far as I can tell this is an issue of Ijtihad and the scholars who take the opposite view have their proofs from the divine texts.

No one called it decisive in itself.

But what does seem decisive is:

Sayyidatuna 'Aishah in one and the same hadith, mentions two issues:
"1. Nabi did not see Allah
2. Nabi did not know the 5.
He who refutes this is a liar."

We find that the first was immediately refuted by a number of Sahabah, Tabi'in etc, with nearly every commentary of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc as well as most Tafasir discussing the issue in depth.

So because this first statement of Sayyidatuna 'Aishah was not 100% correct, is was discussed in so much detail and refuted.

Now, did any of the Sahabah refute Sayyidatuna 'Aishah's stance on the second issue?

Any of the Ta'bi'in?

Any of the hundreds of commentators of hadith and mufassirin?

For hundred of years, no one uttered a word contrary to it.

This really does seem decisive, especially bearing in mind the fact that it is such a strongly worded statement regarding aqidah, so if it was incorrect, it was the duty of the Salaf to have spoken out against it.

All you have contrary to it are a few statements from some of the recent Sufiyyah and Ulama.

The transliteration of the arabic from Khasa'is al-Kubra as was quoted elsewhere:

The quote refered to wherein "qila" was used is as follows:

باب اختصاصه {صلى الله عليه وسلم} بالنصر بالرعب مسيرة شهر أمامه وشهر خلفه وأيتائه جوامع الكلم
ومفاتيح خزائن الأرض وعلم كل شيء إلا الخمس قيل والخمس أيضا

Imam Jalaluddin as-Suyuti in Rawdun Nadheer Sharh Jaami` as-Saghir is quoted as saying under the Hadith

'Khamsun La Ya`alamuhunna Illallah'

'there are five nobody knows except Allah.'

And his (sallallahu `Alayhi wa sallam) saying that nobody knows means that nobody knows of his own accord; of his own self, except Allah. But it should be known that by His own bestowing, others also attain this knowledge as is evident amongst us that many have given news of death and that which is in the womb etc.,

1. Who is the author of Rawdun Nadheer Sharh Jaami` as-Saghir ?

2. Please confirm that he is in fact quoting Allamah Suyuti.
Jami' as-Saghir is by Allamah Suyuti, so it is possible that someone got mixed up there.

3. It is the statement of Allamah Munawi in Faidh al-Qadir, Sharh Jami' as-Saghir.
It does not state or even infer that Nabi had knowledge of the 5. All it states is that a person can sometimes find out when he will die or they find out the sex of a foetus. This is through a means or through being informed by Allah, it does not mean that the person has complete knowledge of the 5.

This is an explanation found in many commentaries and Tafasir, even by our Deobandi Ulama and definitely does not infer the possibility of knowldge of the 5 being granted to anyone.

Some further relevant quotes [excluding the commentarys, tafsirs and scholars sidi khanbaba has attacked], insha'allah.
In Irshad as-Sari, Imam Qastalani is quoted as saying:

La Ya`alamu Mata Taqumus Sa`atu Illallahu Wa Illa Manirtada Minar Rasuli Fa Innahu Yutli`ahu `Ala Ghaybihi Wal Waliyyut Tabi`u Lahu Ya-khudhu `Anhu

Does not show that Nabi had knowledge of any of the 5.

The istihna at the end "Illa man irtadha" here is not referring to the time of Qiyamah, but rather to part of all the ghaib, as clearly mentioned by Allamah Qastallani in the same book. He also clearly states that no Nabi is aware of the time of Qiyamah and also that Allah gives knowledge of certain aspects Ghaib. No ikhtilaf in that.

Here is a quote from the same book which clarifies the matter. When he discussed it on the page you referred you, he advised readers to refer to the page being attached here, as it was here that he clearly explained the issue:

In Sharh al-Maqasid `Allama Taftazani is quoted saying:

Innal Ghayba Ha Huna Laysa `Alal `Amumi Bal Mutlaqun Aw Mu`ayyinun Huwa Waqti Wuqu`yil Qiyamati Bi Qareenatis Siyaqi Wa La Yab`adu An Yuttali`u `Alayhi Ba`adar Rasuli Minal Malayikati Wal Bashar

This clearly shows that knowledge of the 5 is not known to Nabi .
The issue raised here is the same one raised in the quote from Imam Razi, where he says that if you take ghaib to mean Qiyamah, then it is possible that some Ambiya or Angels will be informed of it before it takes place.

In short, none of these quotes show that Nabi had knowledge of the 5, in fact they state the opposite.

[Husain]

Barakallah feek to all - especially those not in any position to speak or understand or actually *discuss* the issues positively - for negating the purpose of this thread, which was not to argue but get a specific view and perspective. Thus, I did not even plan to reply after the 3 questions were properly addressed by those whom towards it was asked.

Three pages and still not a single answer to my questions. There is a reason why I specified Mawlana Soofi Saheb and students of knowledge [i.e. proper] to discuss these 3 questions posed; not every joe on the corner road who sees this as some polemical fight between two opposing groups and has an agenda to further his own belief with the added expense of flinging rhetoric here and there.

Wasalam
Salman

Sayyidi,
I think the manner in which you tackled the matter actually caused of the problem.

If you didn't want to start up a debate on the issue, then you shouldn't have pasted the quote from Imam Razi.
That really caused the debate here.
Also, still waiting for your clarification on it.

A better method of approaching the topic would have been to first enumerate names of Ulama, with proper quotes from them, who held the view, together with those who openly opposed it.
The other brothers could have been requested to do the same.

After collecting a sizable amount of quotes, we could then attempt to see whether the view is supported by early, reliable authorities or not.

Right now, it seems that none of the salaf, rather any of the Ulama for hundreds of years, ever held that view.

[salman]

Sayyidi,
I think the manner in which you tackled the matter actually caused of the problem.

If you didn't want to start up a debate on the issue, then you shouldn't have pasted the quote from Imam Razi.
That really caused the debate here.
Also, still waiting for your clarification on it.

A better method of approaching the topic would have been to first enumerate names of Ulama, with proper quotes from them, who held the view, together with those who openly opposed it.
The other brothers could have been requested to do the same.

After collecting a sizable amount of quotes, we could then attempt to see whether the view is supported by early, reliable authorities or not.

Right now, it seems that none of the salaf, rather any of the Ulama for hundreds of years, ever held that view.

salamu `alaykum

Sayyidi, you are right. Ok. Well, we'll take your approach, sidi, and continue this issue when the above conditions are met - which may take some time though. It is not an important issue in the sense that it has to resolved immediately. I dont even intend to debate, just see a scholarly view on the opinions and the methodology used to derive such an opinion.

I apologize for my slip. Please remember us in your du`as.

Wasalam
Salman

[tazkiyyah]

My apologies for my comments.

I do not mean to disparage the name of shaykh mawlana sarfraz khan.
His positions are within valid positions,if not the only positions.

Ja zakallahu khayrun

[salman]

If you didn't want to start up a debate on the issue, then you shouldn't have pasted the quote from Imam Razi.
That really caused the debate here.
Also, still waiting for your clarification on it.

salamu `alaykum

Sidi, youre reading of the text was accurate.

According to Allamah Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti anyone who says that Prophet had the knowledge of ساعت is a كذاب [liar] and has nothing to do with knowledge:


وقد جاهر بلكذب بعض من يدعى فى زماننا العلم وهو متشبع بما لم يعط
ان رسول اللّه صلى اللّه عليه وسلم كان يعلم متى تقوم الساعة ٠٠٠٠هذا شانهما



[Mauduat-e-Kabeer, page 119]

BTW Sidi: I asked one of my teachers and he said, "As for the excerpt from the Mawdu`at al-Kubra by al-Qari, he is not quoting al-Suyuti (who does not say this anywhere) but Ibn al-Qayyim from his Manar al-Munif, which the last part of the Mawdu`at epitomizes."

Wasalam
Salman

[faqir]

No one called it decisive in itself.

But what does seem decisive is:

Sayyidatuna 'Aishah in one and the same hadith, mentions two issues:
"1. Nabi did not see Allah
2. Nabi did not know the 5.
He who refutes this is a liar."

We find that the first was immediately refuted by a number of Sahabah, Tabi'in etc, with nearly every commentary of Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi etc as well as most Tafasir discussing the issue in depth.

So because this first statement of Sayyidatuna 'Aishah was not 100% correct, is was discussed in so much detail and refuted.

Now, did any of the Sahabah refute Sayyidatuna 'Aishah's stance on the second issue?

Any of the Ta'bi'in?

Any of the hundreds of commentators of hadith and mufassirin?

For hundred of years, no one uttered a word contrary to it.

This really does seem decisive, especially bearing in mind the fact that it is such a strongly worded statement regarding aqidah, so if it was incorrect, it was the duty of the Salaf to have spoken out against it.

All you have contrary to it are a few statements from some of the recent Sufiyyah and Ulama.

Shaykh, with respect to the statement of Umm al-Mu'mineen:

Whoever tells you that Muhammad saw his Lord, or concealed something which he was commanded [to reveal], or knew the five things which Allah mentioned <Lo! Allah! With Him is knowledge of the Hour. He sends down the rain [and knows that which is in the wombs. No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die. Lo! Allah is Knower, Aware]> (31:34) – he has told an enormous lie.


If one would take her statement literally would that not include not only the issue of the Hour but also the other knowledges eg. the sex of the foetus, etc which you yourself mentioned as being knowledge which can be given by Allah [subhanahu wa ta'ala] to the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] according to the 'ulema?

The Ayah:

Verily, Allah, with Him is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware.

And the Hadith:

Imam Ahmad recorded that Buraydah said that he heard the Messenger of Allah say:

"There are five things which no one knows except Allah: Verily, Allah, with Him is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware."


These all refer to the five together.

If no one but Allah knows when rain will fall, but when He issues the commands, the angels who are entrusted with the task of bringing rain know about it, as do those among His creation whom He wills should know, and.........

If no one but He knows what is in the wombs of what He wants to create, but when He decrees whether it is to be male or female, and whether it is to be blessed or doomed, the angels who are entrusted with that know about it, as do those among His creation whom He wills should know, then.........

.....why can a scholar capable of ijtihad not believe the same applies to knowledge of the Hour - i.e that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala can entrust our beloved [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] with knowledge of it - despite the statement of Umm al-Mu'mineen?

Is there absolutely no room for Ijtihad upon this issue based on all the evidences available and if not, why?

[Saad]

BTW Sidi: I asked one of my teachers and he said, "As for the excerpt from the Mawdu`at al-Kubra by al-Qari, he is not quoting al-Suyuti (who does not say this anywhere) but Ibn al-Qayyim from his Manar al-Munif, which the last part of the Mawdu`at epitomizes."

Wasalam
Salman

Ok thanks Salman Sahib, I will try to clarify because from where I have read this, it says Mullah Ali Qari is quoting Imam Suyuti and no mention of Hafiz ibn Qayyam . Maybe both of them or a mistake of the author? But alteast Mullah Ali Qari agrees with the statement, be it from Allamah Suyuti or Hafiz ibn Qayyam. And previously I have also provided few quotes from Tafsir al-Jalalayn which shows the view of the author.

[Saad]

Assalam o alaykum,

Also according to:

1. Imam-e-Azam Abu Hanifa.
2. Imam Malik.
3. Imam Shafi.
4. Imam ibn Sirin.

(may Allah have mercy on them)

the knowledge of the 5 things is only with Allah .

1. The famous incident that I am sure all of us have heard and read many times regarding Imam Malik and Imam ibn Sirin. Imam Malik loved Madina and he didn't want to go for any nafal Hajj to Makkah out of fear that he might die there and won't be burried in Madina. So one night Imam Malik saw Prophet in his dream and asked the Prophet that if he is told how much life he has left? So Prophet [s.a.w] pointed 5 fingers. When Imam Malik woke up, he was very confused. He thought maybe it means 5 days, 5 months, 5 years etc. So he sent his servant to Imam ibn Sirin for the interpretation of the dream. Imam ibn Sirin said, this is referring to 5 things mentioned in the Quran and and their knowledge is not given to anyone and only Allah knows.

2. And this is the belief of Imam Shafi as mentioned by him in Risala fi Usul al-Fiqha page 67.

3. And this is also the belief of Imam Abu Hanifa as mentioned in:

Tafsir Madarak of Imam Nasafi, 3:219.

Tafsir Ahmadi of Shaykh Mullah Jiwan Hanafi, page 396.

Tasfir Mazhari of Qadi Sanaullah Pani Pati, 7:280.

[Husain]

Bro Faqir
Why so much posting then deleting?

I think, as you mentioned in your first (deleted) post, we first need to clarify what is meant by knowledge of the 5, then we can continue.

Complete encompassing knowledge of each of these five is only known to Allah.
Besides Him, NO-ONE has complete knowledge of any of the five.

Yes, knowledge of certain aspects of the 5 may be granted to individuals eg. a person might know where or when he will die, when rain will fall on a certain day etc.
He does not know when/where every person will die neither does he know when rain will fall daily.

With regard to knowing what is in the wombs, it doesn't refer only to the sex of the child, but to everything regarding the child ie. Will he/she live, will he/she be fortunate or unfortunate etc.

So a person knowing a portion of this knowledge, is not classified as knowing the 5.

If one would take her statement literally would that not include not only the issue of the Hour but also the other knowledges eg. the sex of the foetus, etc which you yourself mentioned as being knowledge which can be given by Allah [subhanahu wa ta'ala] to the Prophet [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] according to the 'ulema?

Answered this above.
None of the reliable Ulama stated that complete knowledge of any of the 5 can be given to anybody.

If no one but Allah knows when rain will fall, but when He issues the commands, the angels who are entrusted with the task of bringing rain know about it, as do those among His creation whom He wills should know, and.........

If no one but He knows what is in the wombs of what He wants to create, but when He decrees whether it is to be male or female, and whether it is to be blessed or doomed, the angels who are entrusted with that know about it, as do those among His creation whom He wills should know, then.........

.....why can a scholar capable of ijtihad not believe the same applies to knowledge of the Hour - i.e that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala can entrust our beloved [sallallahu alayhi wa sallam] with knowledge of it - despite the statement of Umm al-Mu'mineen?

Already explained that by knowledge of these things is meant complate knowledge, which only Allah Ta'ala holds.
So some of the creation holding partial knowledge or knowledge based on signs that have becoming apparent, is not contrary to the ayah.

As for Qiyamah, by knowledge of it is meant, knowledge of when it will take place, as clearly mentioned in the Quran.

So if the knowledge of when it will take place is granted to anybody, then it is automatically contrary to this and many other ayat and ahadith.

Is there absolutely no room for Ijtihad upon this issue based on all the evidences available and if not, why?

Ijtihad that is contrary to clear verses of the Quran and numerous ahadith, is completely unacceptable.

[salman]

Ok thanks Maulana Sahab, I will try to clarify because from where I have read this, it says Mullah Ali Qari [r.] is quoting Imam Suyuti [r.h] and no mention of Hafiz ibn Qayyam [r.h]. Maybe both of them or a mistake of the author? But alteast Mullah Ali Qari [r.h] agrees with the statement, be it from Allamah Suyuti [r.h] or Hafiz ibn Qayyam [r.h]. And previously I have also provired few quotes from Tafsir al-Jalalayn which shows the view of the author.

salamu `alaykum

There is no doubt that the majority of the early and late scholars considered the knowledge of the hour to be among the unseen not revealed to anyone. There is no doubt when it comes to this fact and no one is arguing otherwise.

The only questions is whether the khilaf that is also clearly present from a number of the muta'akhirin is mu`atabar or ghayr mu`atabar. If so, why? How do we understand the methodology they outline that the non-granting of such knowledge was in the earlier prophetic stages and the narrations mentioning the Prophet (Allah bless him and grant him peace) receiving "vast knowledge" was in later stages. Since the khabar wahid is admissible in matters of furu` al-aqa'id, can such proof be used?

The question is not one's personal position or that the jamhur disagreed. I wanted this discussion to be very methodologically based and I hoped Mawlana Soofi Saheb would clarify it from that perspective.

Wasalam
Salman