Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 20 of 20

Thread: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

  1. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Sister
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    London
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Assalaamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

    Ive read before what the link to geocities talks about and now Im in need of this info, but the link doesnt work anymore. Is there any other one you could provide me with?

    Here is another explaination regarding the topic from Maulvi Muhammad Yusaf al-Kanadee:



    On Circumcision for Women
    According to the Hanafi Madhhab

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    Concerning circumcision for women ʿAlāʾ al-Dīn al-Ḥaṣkafī (d. 1088 / 1677; Damascus), Mufti of the Hanafis in Damascus in his day, stated in his famous book on Hanafi fiqh called al-Durr al-Mukhtār in the chapter called Kitāb al-Khunthā, the section called Bāb Masāʾil Shattā,

    وختان المرأة ليس سنة بل مكرمة للرجال وقيل سنة .
    Circumcision for women is not Sunnah rather it is in honor of men though some have said it is Sunnah.

    In commenting on this Ibn ʿĀbidīn in his Radd al-Muḥtār, Kitāb al-Khunthā, Bāb Masāʾil Shattā, explained that “in honor of men” means that it makes intercourse more enjoyable for them. Here is the text from Ibn ʿĀbidīn,

    قوله ( وختان المرأة ) الصواب خفاض لأنه لا يقال في حق المرأة ختان وإنما يقال خفاض حموي قوله ( بل مكرمة للرجال ) لأنه ألذ في الجماع زيلعي قوله ( وقيل سنة ) جزم به البزازي معللا بأنه نص على أن الخنثى تختن ولو كان ختانعا مكرمة لم تختن الخنثى لاحتمال أن تكون امرأة ولكن لا كالسنة في حق الرجال إ ه أقول ختان الخنثى لاحتمال كونه رجلا وختان الرجل لا يترك فلذا كان سنة احتياطا ولا يفيد ذلك سنيته للمرأة تأمل وفي كتاب الطهارة من السراج الوهاج

    As you can see some authorities held it to be Sunnah Ibn ʿĀbidīn explained that position away and insists the correct opinion is that it is merely mustaḥabb. He shows his inclination by using the phrase تأمل (which means “think about it”) after the statement which I set out in blue type. He mentioned in the introduction to his book that when he says that he’s intimating that that a formerly mentioned opinion or interpretation is not right. However the fact that people are removing the clitoris or cutting pieces of it is very good reason for the ulama to discourage it if not prohibit it; the latter case is definitely called for in a place like Sudan or Egypt where the general practice is to remove it which of course is mutilation. Then Ibn ʿĀbidīn mentioned a statement from the book al-Sirāj al-Wahhāj, an 8-volume commentary on al-Qudūrī by al-Ḥaddād (d. 800 / 1397; Zabīd),

    اعلم أن الختان سنة عندنا للرجال والنساء وقال الشافعي واجب وقال بعضهم سنة للرجال مستحب للنساء لقوله عليه الصلاة والسلام ختان الرجال سنة وختان النساء مكرمة

    Know that circumcision is Sunnah according to us [the Hanafi ulama] for men and women while al-Shafiʿī said is that circumcision is obligatory and some of them said Sunnah for men mustaḥabb for women because of the saying of the Prophet k, “Circumcision is Sunnah for men and for women it is in honor [of men].”

    Al-Suyūṭī mentioned the hadith in his al-Durr al-Manthūr, his huge commentary on the Qur’an, and then said,

    وأخرج أحمد والبيهقي عن شداد بن أوس رفعه الختان سنة للرجال مكرمة للنساء وأخرج الطبراني في مسند الشاميين وأبو الشيخ في كتاب العقيقة والبيهقي من حديث ابن عباس مثله
    It was reported by Aḥmad and al-Baihaqī from the Companion Shaddād ibn ʿAus while al-Ṭabārānī reported it in his Musnad al-Shāmiyīn and Abū al-Shaikh in his book al-ʿAqīqah from Ibn ʿAbbās.

    Al-Ṭabārānī also reported it in several places in his Muʿjam al-Kabīr. I declare that the fact that the Prophet said it was Sunnah for men and did not say the same thing for women would seem to confirm the opinion supported by Ibn ʿĀbidīn and the author of al-Durr al-Mukhtār that it is not Sunnah for women but merely mustaḥabb. But that is under normal circumstances and we certainly don’t live under them. Allah knows best.
    The reason circumcision is in honor of men is that by removing some of the skin that surrounds the clitoris the woman she becomes more excited during intercourse which in turn more excites the man. However, if all of the skin is left then her lust will remain great so that she may not be satisfied with the intercourse she has with her husband so that she might seek intercourse elsewhere committing adultery. This is learned from a hadith reported by Abū Dāwūd from the woman Companions ʿĀṭiyah al-Anṣārīyah, who said,

    إن امرأة كانت تختن فقال لها النبي لا تنهكي فإن ذلك أحظى وأحب إلى البعل .
    A woman used to perform circumcisions so the Prophet k said to her, “Don’t cut too much [of the skin surrounding the clitoris but leave some of it–Mullā ʿAlī al-Qārī] because that will be more pleasing to the woman and more desirable to the husband.

    Mullā ʿAlī al-Qārī mentioned in his commentary on the hadith compilation Mishkāt al-Maṣābīḥ known as Mirqāt al-Maṣābīḥ that the hadith is weak by virtue of an unknown narrator that figures in its chain of narration however he said that al-Ṭabarānī reported it with a rigorously authentic chain of narration as did al-Ḥākim in his al-Mustadrak but with a slightly different wording, اخفضي ولا تنهكي فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج / “Circumcise but don’t cut too much for that will be brighter for the face and more pleasing to the husband.” Here follows the text from Mirqāt al-Maṣābīḥ which I will leave untranslated having mentioned the substance of it already:

    ( وعن أم عطية الأنصارية ) بايعت النبي فتمرض المرضى وتداوي الجرحى ( إن امرأة كانت تختن ) بكسر التاء المخففة أي تختن البنات وتطهرهن بالختان ( فقال لها النبي لا تنهكي ) بضم التاء وكسر الهاء وفي نسخة بفتحهما أي لا تبالغي في قطع موضع الختان بل اتركي بعض ذلك الموضع وفي شرح السنة ويروى أشمي ولا تنهكي فقوله لا تنهكي تفسير لقوله أشمي أي لا تستقصي ( فإن ذلك ) بكسر الكاف أي عدم المبالغة والاستقصاء ( أحظى ) بسكون مهملة وفتح معجمة أي أنفع للمرأة ( وأحب ) أي ألذ ( إلى البعل ) أي الزوج فإنه إذا بولغ في ختانها لا تلتذ هي ولا هو ( رواه أبو داود وقال هذا الحديث ) وفي نسخة صحيحة هذا حديث ( ضعيف وفي رواته مجهول ) وهو يحتمل أن يريد برواته جنس رواته ويؤيده ما في نسخة صحيحة ورواية مجهول ويحتمل أن يريد أن أحد رواته مجهول ويؤيده ما في نسخة وفي رواته مجهول لكن رواه الطبراني بسند صحيح والحاكم في مستدركه عن الضحاك بن قيس ولفظه ( اخفضي ولا تنهكي فإنه أنضر للوجه وأحظى عند الزوج ) كذا في مرقات المصابيح 8/302-303 .

    Here follows the commentary on the hadith by al-Munāwī from his Faiḍ al-Qadīr:
    اخفضي بكسر الهمزة خطابا لأم عطية التي كانت تخفض الجواري بالمدينة أي تختنهن ولا تنهكي بفتح المثناة فوق وسكون النون وكسر الهاء لا تبالغي في استقصاء محل الختان بالقطع بل أبقي بعض ذلك الموضع قال الزمخشري وأصل النهك المبالغة في العمل فإنه أنضر بفتح الهمزة والمعجمة للوجه أي أكثر لمائه ودمه وأبهج لبريقه ولمعته وأحظى عند الزوج ومن في معناه من كل واطىء كسيد الأمة يعني أحسن لجماعها عنده وأحب إليه وأشهى له لأن الخافضة إذا استأصلت جلدة الختان ضعفت شهوة المرأة فكرهت الجماع فقلت حظوتها عند حليلها كما أنها إذا تركتها بحالها فلم تأخذ منها شيئا بقيت غلمتها فقد لا تكتفي بجماع زوجها فتقع في الزنا فأخذ بعضها تعديل للشهوة والخلقة قال حجة الإسلام انظر إلى جزالة هذا اللفظ في الكناية وإلى إشراق نور النبوة من مصالح الآخرة التي هي أهم مقاصد النبوة إلى مصالح الدنيا حتى انكشف له وهو أمي من هذا الأمر النازل قدره ما لو وقعت الغفلة عنه خيف ضرره وتطاير من غيب عاقبته شرره وتولد منه أعظم القبائح وأشد الفضائح فسبحان من أرسله رحمة للعالمين ليجمع لهم ببعثته مصالح الدارين وفيه أنه لا استحياء من قول مثل ذلك للأجنبية فقد كان المصطفى أشد حياء من العذراء في خدرها ومع ذلك قاله تعليما للأمة ومن استحيا من فعل فعله أو قول قاله فهو جاهل كثيف الطبع ولعله يقع في عدة كبائر ولا يستحي من الله ولا من الخلق طب ك عن الضحاك بالتشديد ابن قيس بفتح القاف وسكون المثناة تحت الفهري قال كان بالمدينة امرأة يقال لها أم عطية تختن الجواري فقال لها رسول الله ذلك والفهري قال الذهبي يقال له صحبة قتل يوم راهط انتهى وما ذكر من أن الضحاك هذا هو الفهري هو ما ذكره الحاكم وأبو نعيم حيث أورد الحديث في ترجمته ويخالفه ما رواه البيهقي وغيره عن الفضل العلائي قال سألت ابن معين عن هذا فقال الضحاك هذا ليس بالفهري قال ابن حجر وهذا الحديث رواه أبو داود في السنن وأعله بمحمد بن حسان فقال مجهول ضعيف وتبعه ابن عدي في تجهيله وخالفهم عبد الغني فقال هو محمد بن سعيد المصلوب وحاله معروف وكيفما كان سنده ضعيف جدا وممن جزم بضعفه الحافظ العراقي وقال ابن حجر في موضع آخر له طريقان كلاهما ضعيف وقال ابن المنذر ليس في الختان خبر يعول عليه ولا سنة تتبع . كذا في الفيض القدير .


  2. FREE postage anywhere in the UK.

  3. #12
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    9,540

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Quote Originally Posted by mosleema1980 View Post
    [COLOR="Purple"]Assalaamu aleikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

    Ive read before what the link to geocities talks about and now Im in need of this info, but the link doesnt work anymore. Is there any other one you could provide me with?
    Sister,

    The surgery associated with the matter under discussion is called "Clitoropexy" or its common public name is "Clitoral Hood Reduction", you should be able to google the rest. It is a procedure which is often done to enhance pleasure OR to avoid discomfort!

    Summary of the procedures associated with the matter are given below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel_Hardstone View Post
    Asslamo Allaikum,


    1) First and foremost this procedure is NOT obligatory, rather it is Sunnah

    2) Second lets look at the evidence to see WHAT EXACTLY is Sunnah and we find the strongest evidence to be:

    a) "When two circumcised parts unite then bathing becomes obligatory." (Sahih, Reported by Ahmad and Al-Baihaqee)

    b) The saying of the Messenger (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) in the Hadith of Umm ‘Atiyyah to a female circumcision: "When you circumcise then do not cut severely, since that is better for her and more pleasing to the husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud and Al-Baihaqee)

    The definitions and parameters as set by World Health Organisation:

    1) TYPE I: excision of the prepuce, with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris:

    The first and the mildest kind of female circumcision as defined by WHO (World Health Organisation) and this is the Sunnah as proposed by Messenger (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam)

    2) TYPE II: excision of the clitoris with partial or total excision of the labia minora;

    This is bordering on genital mutilation expressly forbidden by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) in the Hadeeth above and unfortuanely carried out in Muslim countries in the name of Sunnah!

    3) Type III: excision of part or all of the external genitalia and stitching/narrowing of the vaginal opening (infibulation);

    This is expressive and deliberate genital mutilation expressly forbidden by Rasul-ullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) in the Hadeeth above (Type II is forbidden & this is Type III)…this can have serious health repercussions...This is also carried out in Muslim \countries in the name of Sunnah, unfortunately!


    4) Type IV: pricking, piercing or incising of the clitoris and/or labia; stretching of the clitoris and/or labia; cauterization by burning of the clitoris and surrounding tissue;

    s c a r ing of tissue surrounding the vaginal orifice (angurya cuts) or cutting of the vagina (gishiri cuts);

    introduction of corrosive substances or herbs into the vagina to cause bleeding or for the purpose of tightening or narrowing it; and any other procedure that falls under the definition given above.

    Just look at above, do you think this Type IV can possibly be Sunnah? This is used in torture.

    Problem is that Type II, III & IV are gential mutilation and if Type I if not done under sterile conditions and by competent medical professionals can lead to infections and further complication (just like male circumcision)!

    So Media & NGO's make a bid deal about the Sunnah when even WHO recognise Type I to be a fairly harmless procedure!

    Unfortunately the practises of Muslim countries (where Type II, III and even IV) is practised is providing enough material to the Media to hit us with


  4. "How To Begin Reading And Understanding An Arabic Book in 21 Days"

  5. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,252

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Assalamu alaikum,

    I have a few confusions regarding the matter:

    i) When it says it is an "honour for men" - in what way. Circumcision of the clitoral hood will make it more pleasurable for women and circumcision of the clitoris will make it less pleasurable for them. So in what way is the man benefiting from either. The only way I can connect is that it makes the man's job easier in several ways if the clitoral hood is circumcised.

    ii) Is it true that according to Imam Nawawi this is fardh for women just like according to them it is fardh for men?

    iii) One Malaysian 'alim of the Shafi' fiqh told me that in Malaysia they actually circumcise a small part of the tip of the clitoris. Almost all women have it done. When I objected by saying it reduces the pleasure for women he said that otherwise women will create fitna like in the west. Is this true regarding the practice in Malaysia?


  6. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    9,540

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Quote Originally Posted by hope1 View Post
    Assalamu alaikum,

    I have a few confusions regarding the matter:

    i) When it says it is an "honour for men" - in what way. Circumcision of the clitoral hood will make it more pleasurable for women and circumcision of the clitoris will make it less pleasurable for them. So in what way is the man benefiting from either. The only way I can connect is that it makes the man's job easier in several ways if the clitoral hood is circumcised.

    ii) Is it true that according to Imam Nawawi this is fardh for women just like according to them it is fardh for men?

    iii) One Malaysian 'alim of the Shafi' fiqh told me that in Malaysia they actually circumcise a small part of the tip of the clitoris. Almost all women have it done. When I objected by saying it reduces the pleasure for women he said that otherwise women will create fitna like in the west. Is this true regarding the practice in Malaysia?


    I didn't want to talk about this...

    Almost all Somali Sisters who are born and raised back in Somalia are circumcised and it depends how it is performed so could be pleasure enhancing or pleasure reducing and in Muslim countries the later is the objective while in the West the former.


  7. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    2,252

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel_Hardstone View Post


    I didn't want to talk about this...

    Almost all Somali Sisters who are born and raised back in Somalia are circumcised and it depends how it is performed so could be pleasure enhancing or pleasure reducing and in Muslim countries the later is the objective while in the West the former.
    Assalamu aliakum,

    I know that East Africa is a different issue altogether. Due to cultural practices in rural areas, many wars, poverty and colonial repression the knowledge of Islam is very low causing the form of "circumcision" (or more precisely genital mutilation) to be very extreme. That is why I cited Malaysia which is more developed and is recognized to have leading universities, etc.

    The traditionalists among the Shafis always like to quote the practice of a region. Even some of my friends (Deobandis) say things like how Sri Lankan Shafi ulema perform khutbah, what they wear, how they keep beard, etc. to show the interpretation of a ruling based upon the general practice of the ulema of that region. Given that this is their methodology, how do they explain the practice of the Malaysian Shafis regarding this issue.


  8. #16
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Sister
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    London
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Regarding Question i), its said in the article:


    The reason circumcision is in honor of men is that by removing some of the skin that surrounds the clitoris the woman she becomes more excited during intercourse which in turn more excites the man. However, if all of the skin is left then her lust will remain great so that she may not be satisfied with the intercourse she has with her husband so that she might seek intercourse elsewhere committing adultery.


  9. #17
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Gender
    Sister
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Location
    London
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative



  10. #18
    Junior Member Akbar the Great's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Shafi'i
    Posts
    20

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Quote Originally Posted by hope1 View Post
    Assalamu aliakum,

    I know that East Africa is a different issue altogether. Due to cultural practices in rural areas, many wars, poverty and colonial repression the knowledge of Islam is very low causing the form of "circumcision" (or more precisely genital mutilation) to be very extreme. That is why I cited Malaysia which is more developed and is recognized to have leading universities, etc.

    The traditionalists among the Shafis always like to quote the practice of a region. Even some of my friends (Deobandis) say things like how Sri Lankan Shafi ulema perform khutbah, what they wear, how they keep beard, etc. to show the interpretation of a ruling based upon the general practice of the ulema of that region. Given that this is their methodology, how do they explain the practice of the Malaysian Shafis regarding this issue.


    It's true that for us shafi'is circumcision is obligatory both on males and females. I don't know what you mean by "traditionalists", but keep in mind that most shafi'is hold these view even if they're not "traditionalists" (dunno what you meant anyway).

    And it's also true that many Malaysian women have been circumcised. And? Does this means they're "less evolved" or anything? Oh, and by the way, some studies have found Malaysian women have less probability of having urine tract infections and sexual problems than "normal" women.

    Regarding to sisters in Somalia, it's true: some are circumcised right while other women have been mutilated. But take care, because the ngo's there are disbelievers and they do not differenciate between mutilation and circumcision. Tell me: is it the same to cut the prepuce of a male-member than to cut the entire male-member?

    All with all, I would like to know more about that circumcision practiced in Malaysia, because I've always thought it was the prepuce not the tip of the clitoris...

    May Allah keep us sane in this silly world!


  11. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    Hanafi
    Posts
    3,161

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative



    So the basic conclusion is that female circumcision is good, as it is from the sunnah, whilst also healthier for the woman and gives her better enjoyment of marital relations. Female mutilation is bad because it against the sunnah, unhealthy and gives her a lack of enjoyment of marital relations

    So we need to make sure people know the difference

    If people praise you, it's because they don't really know who you are- Imam Suhaib Webb

    Secularism: the greatest danger facing Islam- by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPmMUibmYY

    Detachment is not that you should own nothing, but that nothing should own you- Ali (RA)


  12. #20
    Senior Member Abdul Qaadir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Gender
    Brother
    Madhhab
    None
    Location
    أرض
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Female Circumcision and Islam - A Rant from my Relative

    Circumcision is part of the fitrah...cleanliness is half of Imaan.


Similar Threads

  1. Female Circumcision Optional?
    By تفويض in forum Unresolved Questions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-07-2011, 11:30 AM
  2. Female circumcision and Islam
    By scents of paradise in forum In-depth Fiqh
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-07-2008, 02:03 PM
  3. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 08-10-2007, 09:51 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •