The Official Sunni/Salafi Debates Thread

[faqir]

Asalamu alaykum,

InshaAllah, something I had posted previously on another forum............some examples to illustrate the Creedal errors of the pseudo-salafi cult of today:

http://www.salafitalk.net/st/printth...m=8&Topic=1138

So they entered into it, and the result of it is what you hear today from these Innovators, Deviants, Heretics, who are the descendants of those ones:



"Allaah is not inside the universe, nor outside of it, nor to the left of it, nor to the right of it, nor above, nor below it...."

"Allaah exists without a place"

"We cannot attribute direction to Allaah"

"Allaah exists without a jism"



And many other slogans and phrases. So they entered many of these statements

Let us compare this deviant statement of the pseudo-salafi theologians to the statement of Imam Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi [who I am sure most of us are familiar with]



38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.


SubhanAllah, that one statement of Imam at-Tahawi deals with the pseudo-salafi's objection to all of the above statements it quotes in its article which it shamelessly claims the Muslims stole from "Greek Homosexuals" ... see http://www.salafitalk.net/st/printth...m=8&Topic=1138 !

What will they now say about Imam al-Tahawi?

[faqir]

Elsewhere, Shaykh Ibn Baz [Salafi theologian] says in Taliqat Hamma `ala ma Katabahu al-Shaykh Muhammad `Ali al-Sabuni fi Sifat Allah (Kuwait: Jam`iyya Ihya' al-Turath al-Islami, pg. 22):

"To declare Allah transcendent beyond possessing body (al-jism), pupils (al-hadaqa), auditory meatus (al-simâkh), tongue (al-lisân), and larynx (al-hanjara) is not the position of Ahl al-Sunna but rather that of the scholars of condemned kalâm and their contrivance.



Again, compare this statement to what Imam Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi says in point number 38 of his creedal work:

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.


So what then is the shaykh's opinion of Imam Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi?

[faqir]

Now look at how the Salafis try and get around this!

In his footnote to this point in his "commentary" [or rather twisting] of Aqeedatut-Tahawiyyah Shaykh Ibn Baz says :

"Allah is beyond limits that we know but has limits He knows."

[Sh. Shu`ayb Hassan [a former favourite of the Salafis] has translated this into English if anyone wants to check for themselves.... alteranatively, if anyone would like the full footnote they can pm me, inshaAllah.


The question we should ask ourselves.... is this not a misguided innovation ?? Where did Shaykh Ibn Baz [RH] get this information that Allah has limits that He knows?? Did the salaf engage in speculation of modality when they mentioned the divine attributes!?! And this is complete contradiction to the primary text upon which the "commentary" is supposedly given i.e. the statement of Imam Abu Ja'far al-Tahawi

38. He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.




The fact is that Aqeedatut Tahawiyya is not palatable to this pseudo-salafi sect so it advises its members to read it with the commentary of their "salafi" theologians.

[faqir]

Shaykh Uthaymin RH claims in his Sharh al-`Aqida al-Wasitiyya :

"Can the vision of Allah Most High in the hereafter be other than in a direction?"




Shall we let Imam Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi answer his question?



35. The Seeing of Allah by the People of the Garden is true, without their vision being all-encompassing and without the manner of their vision being known. As the Book of our Lord has expressed it: "Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." (al-Qiyama 75:22-3) The explanation of this is as Allah knows and wills. Everything that has come down to us about this from the Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, in authentic traditions, is as he said and means what he intended. We do not delve into that, trying to interpret it according to our own opinions or letting our imaginations have free rein.

No one is safe in his religion unless he surrenders himself completely to Allah, the Exalted and Glorified and to His Messenger, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and leaves the knowledge of things that are ambiguous to the one who knows them.

[faqir]

Shaykh Al-Uthaymin [RH] in "The Muslim's Belief"

[http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49466]


"His settling on the throne means that He is sitting in person on His throne...."



In reply, let me quote Sh. G.F. Haddad:


"In this simple line he [Shaykh al-Uthaymin] has

(a) violated the Salaf's rule of bilâ kayf - "not saying how" - that applies to the verses pertaining to the Divine Attributes and Attributes of Acts;

(b) attributed an act that is precluded, prohibited, and close to shirk to apply to the Transcendent Creator of the worlds, namely, "sitting";

(c) made use of an innovated phrase which the pious Sunni Salaf never used, namely, "in person" (bidhâtih);

(d) applied that innovated phrase to the Deity Most High whereas any attribute pertaining to Allah is by, Consensus, ordained and non-inferable (tawqîfî);

(e) generally promoted the doctrine of anthropomorphism, which is not Islamic but comes straight out of the abrogated Books."



The great Hanbali, Shaykh Ibn al-Jawzi RH states:

Whoever says: He is established on the Throne ‘in person’ (bi dhatihi), has diverted the sense of the verse to that of sensory perception. Such a person must not neglect that the principle is established by the mind, by which we have come to know Allah, and have attributed pre-eternity to Him decisively. If you said: We read the hadiths and keep quiet, no one would criticize you; it is only your taking them in the external sense which is hideous. Therefore do not bring into the school of this pious man of the Salaf – Imam Ahmad [Ibn Hanbal] – what does not belong in it. You have clothed this madhab [or school of jurisprudence] with an ugly deed, so that it is no longer said ‘Hanbali’ except in the sense of ‘anthropomorphist’

[Abul Hasan]

Mashallah! I have seen all this before and these innovators have yet to reply appropriately. The strange thing with these Ahlul Hawa is that they claim to agree with Imam al-Tahawi's creedo, but they blatantly go against it with their distortive explanations using such Mubtadi'in like: Ibn Abi'l Izz (declared a Mubtadi by Mulla Ali al-Qari), Bin Baz, Salih al Fawzan and the latest Sharh on Tahawiyya by the distorting enemy of al-Asha'ira: Safar al-Hawali - who was exposed even by his own pseudo-Salafi brethren. This al-Hawali went as far as attacking al-Albani on the issue of Irja, as did the latest Mubtadi: Falih al Harbi! This is their latest trend: Refuting and exposing each other! May Allah guide them and keep us away from their Fitna. Amin.

The father of the idea's spread by the Ahlul Bid'a wal Dalala today was no doubt ibn Taymiyya and his pupil Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyya, in the name of the Salaf.

Here is a recent list of works on the Taymiyyan way as mentioned by DR GF Haddad:



1. Fataawaa Ibn Taymiyya fil-Meezaan [Ibn Taymiyya's Fatwas under Investigation]. By the Mauritanian Shaykh al-Sayyid Muhammad Ahmad Miskah ibn al-`Ateeq al-Ya`qubi, Allah reward him. 500 p. (Damascus 2000.)

2. Al-Kaashif al-Sagheer `an `Aqaa'id Ibn Taymiyya [Minor Exposure of the Beliefs of Ibn Taymiyya]. By Sa`id `Abd al-Latif Fawdah. 500 p. (Amman 2000).

3. Risaala fil-Radd `ala Ibn Taymiyya fi Mas'alati Hawaaditha laa Awwala Laha [Epistle in Refutation of Ibn Taymiyya in the Question of 'Created Matters without Beginning']. By al-Imam Baha' al-Din al-Ikhmeemi al-Misri (700-764). Ed. Sa`id `Abd al-Latif Fawdah. 128 p. (Amman 1998) This was written in refutation of Ibn Taymiyya's belief that the world is of a pre-eternal nature and exists with Allah since pre-eternity as an "ever-abiding created object" (makhluqan da'iman!), thus making it necessarily existent in His Essence (mujaban bi al-dhat) and [making Him] not acting deliberately (la fa`ilan bi al-ikhtyar), elevated is He beyond that! Dr. al-Buti in Kubra al-Yaqeenaat al-Kawniyya pointed out that this is nothing other than Aristotelian philosophy and, before him, Imam Abu Ishaq al-Isfarayini said that whoever holds such a doctrine is considered a kafir.

4. Risaala Shareefa feemaa Yata`allaqu bi Kam al-Baaqi min `Umr al-Dunya [Noble Epistle Concerning the Remainder of the Life of this World]. by Imam al-San`ani. Ed. al-Wasabi al-Mathani. (San`a', 1992). This is a refutation of the same heresy as in #3.

5. Al-Qawl al-Wajeeh fi Tanzeeh Allah Ta`ala `an al-Tashbeeh [The Eminent Discourse Concerning Divine Transcendence beyond All Resemblance to Created Things]. By Shaykh al-Sayyid Abul-Hasanayn `Abd Allah ibn `Abd al-Rahman al-Makki al-Hashimi rahimahullah. 111 p. (Amman 1995.)

6. Al-Salafiyya al-Mu`aasira: Munaaqashaat wa Ruduud [Contemporary Salafism: Discussions and Refutations]. By Shaykh al-Sayyid Abul-Hasanayn al-Makki al-Hashimi rahimahullah. 230 p. (Amman 1996.)

7. Al-Farq al-`Azeem bayn al-Tanzeeh wal-Tajseem wayaleeh al-Muqtataf fi Naqd al-Tuhaf [THe Tremendous Difference between Transcendence and Anthropomorphism]. By Sa`id `Abd al-Latif Fawdah. 72 p. (Amman 2001.) Contains a valuable commentary on al-Shawkaani's `Aqida titled al-Tuhaf fi Madhhahib al-Salaf.

8. Tasheeh al-Mafaaheem al-`Aqdiyya fil-Sifaat al-Ilaahiyya [The Redress of Doctrinal Understandings of the Divine Attributes]. By Shaykh `Isa ibn Maani` al-Himyari. 300 p. (Cairo 1998.)

---------------------------------------------

Wassalam

Abul Hasan

[faqir]

Mashallah! I have seen all this before and these innovators have yet to reply appropriately. The strange thing with these Ahlul Hawa is that they claim to agree with Imam al-Tahawi's creedo, but they blatantly go against it with their distortive explanations using such Mubtadi'in like: Ibn Abi'l Izz (declared a Mubtadi by Mulla Ali al-Qari), Bin Baz, Salih al Fawzan and the latest Sharh on Tahawiyya by the distorting enemy of al-Asha'ira: Safar al-Hawali - who was exposed even by his own pseudo-Salafi brethren. This al-Hawali went as far as attacking al-Albani on the issue of Irja, as did the latest Mubtadi: Falih al Harbi! This is their latest trend: Refuting and exposing each other! May Allah guide them and keep us away from their Fitna. Amin.

Ameen

[ilm_seeker]

As sallamu alaikum

Br. Abul Hasan, whats the latest news from Reviving-Islam.com?

Wa alaikum as sallam

[muminah]

Shaykh Al-Uthaymin [RH] in "The Muslim's Belief"

[http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49466]


"His settling on the throne means that He is sitting in person on His throne...."."

i dont think its reliable to quote the words from another forum! Anything could be twisted!

[SIZE=3]
(a) violated the Salaf's rule of bilâ kayf - "not saying how" - that applies to the verses pertaining to the Divine Attributes and Attributes of Acts;...."."

sorry, but what do you mean by that? as in didnt do ta'weel? Well, back to square one.

[SIZE=3]
(b) attributed an act that is precluded, prohibited, and close to shirk to apply to the Transcendent Creator of the worlds, namely, "sitting";;...."."

In the English translation of this work, this is how this statement is translated, but when one reads the original Arabic it quickly becomes clear that it is impossible to translate ibn Uthaymeen’s statement as above, here is what ibn Uthaymeen says on pg.11 of the original Arabic,
"We believe that He ‘created the Heavens and the earth in Six days than He made Istawaa upon the Throne, He manages everything.' His Istawaa means that He is in Person above the Throne in a way that befits His Majesty and Greatness. Nobody Knows how He made Istawaa,"

I have no idea how the translator of this work could have translated so badly!

[SIZE=3]
(c) made use of an innovated phrase which the pious Sunni Salaf never used, namely, "in person" (bidhâtih);";;...."."

daleel please? wAllahu a'lam. But i just came across the mas'alah of kalaam-ullaah. Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ishaaq bin rahaweh, Imaam Bukhaari and the salaf (this is according to shaykh yunus hafidhahullah-the great muhaddith of our era) believe that kalaam-ullaah means that it is a dhaati sifat. so are they not from the sunni salaf then??

[SIZE=3]
(e) generally promoted the doctrine of anthropomorphism, which is not Islamic but comes straight out of the abrogated Books."

not the case, as above

A statement from Imaam Abuu Haneefah (rahimahullah) on this:

Abu Haneefah (RH) when asked of his opinion of the one who says, ‘I do not know whether Allaah is above the heavens or on the earth.’ - "He said, he has disbelieved, because Allaah says, "The Most Merciful rose above the Throne.", and His Throne is above His seven heavens.’ He was then asked, ‘what if he said that Allaah is above His Throne but he does not know whether the Throne is in the heavens or on the earth?’ He said, ‘He has disbelieved, because He has denied that He is above the heavens, And whosoever denied that He is above the heavens has disbelieved."

[muminah]

Shaykh Uthaymin RH claims in his Sharh al-`Aqida al-Wasitiyya :

"Can the vision of Allah Most High in the hereafter be other than in a direction?"




.[/SIZE]

how can he be claiming when its a question?? *confused*