The travelling distance

[al-Hanafi]

As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

I pray that you are all in the best of health, physically as well as spiritually, and may Allah grant you the best from this world and the hereafter.

This topic is about the travelling distance according to the Hanafi madhhab and the conversion of the classical units of distance into what most people use these days, being the units of miles and km.

First of all, it is clear that there are three positions in the Hanafi madhhab as to the distance considered to be the travelling distance (i.e. the minimum distance one has to intend to cover, before becoming a traveller (musafir) that shortens the prayers (qasr)).

These positions are: 15 farsakhs, 18 farsakhs and 21 farsakhs, as mentioned by Imam Badr al-Din al-'Ayni in 'Umda al-Qari. Of these, the position of the travelling distance being 18 farsakh is the fatwa position, according to - among others - Imam Ibn 'Abidin al-Shami as mentioned in Radd al-Muhtar (Rahmatu Llahi ta'ala 'alayhima).

But for all this to make any sense for Muslims living in the west, who usually do not consider distances in farsakh, we must convert these distances into something we're more used to - miles and km being the most obvious choices.

Now, some people say that the travelling distance is 48 miles/77 km, and this is what - among others - the learned people on SunniPath mention, and as SP is one of the more influential and widely visited and followed Sunni academies/websites, many people follow this view.

What I would like to know is: How is this conclusion - of 48 miles/77 km - reached and by which calculations?

If anyone could present the mathematical calculations of how xx farsakhs equal 48 miles/77 km, I would very much appreciate it.

I am asking, because according to my calculations (and what my shayukh give fatwa upon), this (48 miles/77 km) position, does not go back to either of the three mentioned positions, and certainly not the fatwa position. Simply put, it is wrong. Yet, people all over are following this position.

And just to make it completely clear: I am not interested in what the correct position is (we'll get to that part later), but I am only interested in mathematical proof (calculations) that support the 48 miles/77 km position, because I want to know if there is any at all.

Jazakumu Llahu khayran,

Wa as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah
al-Hanafi

[Husain]

The stronger position is 48 shari'i miles, which equals 88km.
The Shaikhul Hadith of Darul Ulum Azadville, Hadhrat Moulana Fadhlur Rahman Azmi has compiled a detailed booklet on the issue.

The view of 77km, inspite of its popularity, is a miscalculation.
Refer to the booklet for details of how it was miscalculated.

[al-Hanafi]

As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

JazakaLlahu khayran for your reply.

Very interesting. I have only heard about this position of 88 km before, but never spoken with anyone who actually adhered to it, and as it is different from what I believe to be correct, I would ask you if you could provide the basic calculations that this position is based upon? I do not have access to the work you referred to so I cannot see it for myself.

As far as I can see, after having checked and re-checked the calculations, and having them verified by Hanafi scholars, the correct position is 99 km. I can provide the calculations if anyone want to see them, and also the references to some very well known and respected Hanafi scholars, but I am at the same time very much interested in the calculations for the other positions, as I want to identify the problem.

I had assumed that the position of 77 km was a miscalculation, but I started this topic in the hopes of finding someone who followed that position and could give me a reason for it, because I want to be as sure as possible. And that invitation is of course still standing...

Baraka Llahu fikum,

Wa as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah
al-Hanafi

[Husain]

The actual position of the madhab is 3 days and three nights journey, which was then converted into distance by different Ulama, each according to the average distance travelled in his place and time.

The Ulama who hold the view of 77km, say that they calculated 3 days of journey in India, to be equivalent to 48 english miles, with equates to 77 or 78 km.
The problem with this is that they didn't mention who calculated this, when it was calculated and how, in addition to the fact that many senior Ulama of India where giving fatwa contrary to this position.

Hadhrat Moulana Fadhlur Rahman saheb adopted the position of Ml. Anwar Shah Kashmiri, Ml. Rashid Ahmed Gangohi, Ml. Binnori etc, who decided that converting 3 days journey into distance, isn't suitable.
The amount walked by people changes through time and the people of every country differ.

It is for this reason that the Fuqaha converted this time into distance, however that was based on the distance travelled in their time.
Those who came after them calculated it differently.
It is for this reason that we find such a huge difference in the different amounts calculated by the Ulama.

So, instead they choose to adopt the view of 4 barid ie. 16 farsakh for the following reasons:
1. It is indicated to in the ahadith.
2. It was the practice of Sahabah
3. It is the view of the other three madhahib.
4. There would be no need for it to change according to time and place, as it isn't based on 3 days journey.
5. It isn't contrary to the view of three days journey.

It is for this reason that they selected the view of 48 Shari miles, which equate to 88,86 km.

So the crux is that the original madhab is 3 days journey.
The Fuqaha then calculated this, with many giving fatwa on 18 farsakh.

The Ulama of India, including Shah Waliyulah Saheb, Allamah Kashmiri, Allamah Gangohi, Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Uthmani, Allamah Dhafar Ahmed Uthmani etc adopted the view of 4 barid= 16 farsakh= 48 Shari'i miles= 88.8 km.

The common fatwa amongst most contemporary Deobandi Ulama is 48 english miles= 77km. This is based on their calculation of three days journey.

Did you get any suitable replies to your post on Sunnah Principles?

[abdushakur]

This is a very interesting topic.

A few months ago Shaykh Abu Yusuf Riyadh ul Haq from Leicester, England, during his sharh of Bukhari lessons, gave the most convincing distance acording to the Shaykh and his teachers, to be 36 miles, or 57.6 kilometres.

The lectures are available to buy at www.akacademy.eu in their shop. I think the lessons are from the book of Shortening the Prayers. I actually listened to them live.
The lessons are detailed and reasonable, and i believe the original poster may be looking for this kind of contemporary explanation

[Husain]

A number of prominent Indian Ulama held the view of 36 english miles.
Amongst them are:

1. Mufti Kifayatullah
2. Ml. Khaiil Ahmed Saharanpuri
3. Ml. Abd as-Shakur Laknawi
4. Ml. Abd al-Hay Laknawi

[al-Hanafi]

As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Soofi_saheb,

Again, I am grateful for your taking time to comment and add your insights, may Allah grant you a great reward for your - this, most appreciated - good deed. Amin.

As for the content:

The Ulama who hold the view of 77km, say that they calculated 3 days of journey in India, to be equivalent to 48 english miles, with equates to 77 or 78 km.

Yes, so they did not base their position on what was mentioned in the earlier works by the earlier Hanafi scholars, but rather made their own ijtihad in this. This is of course their right, but then would it not be wrong to claim that this position is the "strongest position"? By all means, it is valid for people to follow this position, but it is not the fatwa position.

The problem with this is that they didn't mention who calculated this, when it was calculated and how, in addition to the fact that many senior Ulama of India where giving fatwa contrary to this position.

Hadhrat Moulana Fadhlur Rahman saheb adopted the position of Ml. Anwar Shah Kashmiri, Ml. Rashid Ahmed Gangohi, Ml. Binnori etc, who decided that converting 3 days journey into distance, isn't suitable.
The amount walked by people changes through time and the people of every country differ.

Indeed, and as Mufti Rafi' 'Uthmani notes, this position of theirs is closest to the 15 farsakhs position.

It is for this reason that the Fuqaha converted this time into distance, however that was based on the distance travelled in their time.
Those who came after them calculated it differently.
It is for this reason that we find such a huge difference in the different amounts calculated by the Ulama.

So, instead they choose to adopt the view of 4 barid ie. 16 farsakh for the following reasons:
1. It is indicated to in the ahadith.
2. It was the practice of Sahabah
3. It is the view of the other three madhahib.
4. There would be no need for it to change according to time and place, as it isn't based on 3 days journey.
5. It isn't contrary to the view of three days journey.

It is for this reason that they selected the view of 48 Shari miles, which equate to 88,86 km.

I don't really get that. The target must be to reach what the Prophet (salla Llahu 'alayhi wa sallam) meant by the distance he mentioned - not to find a new definition. But if they felt that this course of action was best, then of course it is their right to do ijtihad.

But then, that would mean that we should find a whole new definition in the West - for people in Europe are different from the people in the Subcontinent, and the people in America are different from both - becoming physically heavier and heavier, which would effect their ability to walk. Thus what an average American may be able to walk in three days, would not be the same distance as what an average European might cover.

Yet, this position that is based on the Indian circumstances is being taught to be the "correct position" in all the world - not only India. I see this as a self-contradiction.

So the crux is that the orignal madhab is 3 days journey.
The Fuqaha then calculated this, with the majority giving fatwa on 18 farsakh.

The Ulama of India, including Shah Waliyulah Saheb, Allamah Kashmiri, Allamah Gangohi, Allamah Shabbir Ahmed Uthmani, Allamah Dhafar Ahmed Uthmani etc adopted the view of 4 barid= 16 farsakh= 48 Shari'i miles= 88.8 km.

Yes, many of the deobandi 'ulama of Indo-Pak took this stance, but not all of them, and neither did the non-deobandi 'ulama of the Subcontinent.

The common fatwa amongst most contemporary Deobandi Ulama is 48 english miles= 77km. This is based on their calculation of three days journey.

It would be safe to assume that this fatwa - although I do not contest it's validity - cannot be said to be the fatwa position in the Hanafi madhhab. The fatwa position remains 18 farsakh = 54 shar'i miles = 99 km (rounded values), and if any position should be taught as being "the strongest" this should be it.

Did you get any suitable replies to your post on Sunnah Principles?

A few, but not enough details. It seems that I must submit to the fact that there is no clear-cut origin of the 48 miles/77 km position (meaning the calculations behind it).

Wa as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah
al-Hanafi

[al-Hanafi]

As-salamu 'alaykum,

Abdushakur,

Thank you for the link - I'll insha'Allah look into it, though this has only given os another position to deal with.

Wa sa-salamu 'alaykum
al-Hanafi

[Husain]

Yes, so they did not base their position on what was mentioned in the earlier works by the earlier Hanafi scholars, but rather made their own ijtihad in this. This is of course their right, but then would it not be wrong to claim that this position is the "strongest position"?

Do they claim it to be the "strongest position"?
and what would be meant by strongest?

If strongest means the most in accordance with the actual madhab or the most suitable to their circumstances, then they could claim it to be strongest, as they based it on the actual view of the madhab ie. 3 days in their context, instead of on the opinions of later Fuqaha.

By all means, it is valid for people to follow this position, but it is not the fatwa position.

This issue isn't one of a clear-cut Fatwa position in the madhab.

That would apply when there is only one view upon which fatwa could be given, which would then be classified as the fatwa position.

This mas'alah is completely different.

The actual madhab is 3 days journey, according to the time and place.

Now, the fatwa postion of the madhab is this much that this amount should be converted into distance, to facilitate understanding of the issue for the laymen.

As for whose conversions should be taken, this isn't clear.

It was converted by some Ulama of Bukhara etc and this was what they gave Fatwa on, thus you would find some of the fuqaha giving fatwa on that view.
The Ulama of Khawrizim calculated it differently (according to their time and place) and gave Fatwa accordingly.

Now, you will find some latter-day Fuqaha quoting one of these opinions and classifying it as the "fatwa position" of the madhab, when it isn't.

How does their calculation of three days travel in their time and place, become the fatwa postion in this day and time?

The "fatwa position" in any time and place would be the distance equivalent to three days journey in that time.

Indeed, and as Mufti Rafi' 'Uthmani notes, this position of theirs is closest to the 15 farsakhs position.

Which position are you referring to? The 48 English miles one or the Shar'i miles one?

I don't really get that. The target must be to reach what the Prophet (salla Llahu 'alayhi wa sallam) meant by the distance he mentioned - not to find a new definition. But if they felt that this course of action was best, then of course it is their right to do ijtihad.

You seem to have mixed up the two views.
This is the proof of the 48 Shar'i miles view.
How are they "reaching a new definition"?
The hadith clearly mentions 4 barid, which equals 48 shar'i miles.

But then, that would mean that we should find a whole new definition in the West - for people in Europe are different from the people in the Subcontinent, and the people in America are different from both - becoming physically heavier and heavier, which would effect their ability to walk. Thus what an average American may be able to walk in three days, would not be the same distance as what an average European might cover.

Which view are you discussing?
You quoted the the proof of the 48 Shar'i mile one, yet are bringing arguments against the 48 english mile one?

The argument you mentioned is the reason why the 48 shar'i mile view was adopted, as there would be no need to change it, as it isn't based on 3 days journey, while all the other views are based on 3 days journey, and should thus be adapted to suit each time and place.

Yet, this position that is based on the Indian circumstances is being taught to be the "correct position" in all the world - not only India. I see this as a self-contradiction.

The Ulama that have discussed this mas'alah don't refer to it as the only correct position, and one that has to be used all over the world.

Instead, they clearly mention in their fatawa that this is an issue that changes according to time and place and that does not have any specified definite amount.
See Fatawa Mahmudiyyah for example.

It would be safe to assume that this fatwa - although I do not contest it's validity - cannot be said to be the fatwa position in the Hanafi madhhab. The fatwa position remains 18 farsakh = 54 shar'i miles = 99 km (rounded values), and if any position should be taught as being "the strongest" this should be it.

I have already shown that there is no distance that can be classified as the Fatwa position of the madhab.
Instead, the fatwa position is "distance equivalent of 3 days journey".

It seems that I must submit to the fact that there is no clear-cut origin of the 48 miles/77 km position (meaning the calculations behind it).

Fatawa Darul Ulum Deoband clearly mentions that the origins of this view is based on their calculation of 3 days journey.

I am not sure whether you properly understood my previous post.
Please go through it again, as it is unclear which view you are discussing in your replies.

The important thing is that you seem to feel that there is a distance which is "the fatwa position" of the madhab, while the fact that the madhab is based on 3 days journey, shows that there isn't, as three days journey differs though time and place.

[al-Hanafi]

As-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

Soofi_saheb,

Okay, lets do this another way, as the quoting of stuff and commenting on it is just confusing.

1) In one of your previous posts, you claimed that 18 farsakhs = 88 km, but then (possibly after I responded) you changed your post to say that 48 miles = 88 km. But it was in that reply (nr. 2 in the topic) that you mentioned that position as the "stronger", and that was what I was referring to when I mentioned that it would be wrong to consider this opinion as the strongest (or just stronger than the others) as you mentioned.

2) You say that the issue isn't one of a clear-cut fatwa position in the madhhab, but I disagree with you. It is quite clear, as mentioned by:

'Allama Badr al-Din al-'Ayni in 'Umdar al-Qari,
'Allama Ibn 'Abidin al-Shami in Radd al-Muhtar,
'Allama Jalal al-Din Khawarzi in Kifaya ma'a Fath al-Qadir,
'Allama Zayn al-Din Ibn Najim in Bahr al-Ra'iq,
'Allama Ibrahim al-Halabi in Ghunya al-Mutamalli,
'Allama Ahmad Rida Khan in Jadd al-Mumtar,

All these giants (and more) mention 18 farsakh as being the fatwa position. And you yourself mentioned it in one of your earlier replies. Now you're contradicting yourself?

3) Your argument that the distance depends on time and place, although may be valid, is nothing compared to the fatwa by the abovementioned 'ulama - who certainly would not have said that 18 farsakh is the fatwa position if it was not the case. Didn't they know that rulings change?

Further more: Imam Ibn 'Abidin did not live that long ago, and he is the foremost authority in the later Hanafi madhhab. Not that much have changed since, and the 15 farsakh position was known to all the abovementioned 'ulama.

Please note that I'm not contesting the validity of the 88 km position.

4) When I wrote about Mufti Rafi's saying, I was talking about his position of 45 shar'i miles which he miscalculated to 48 english miles, where it should have been 51 english miles.

5) The hadith you speak of, regarding the 4 barids, is weak according to Imam Badr al-Din al-'Ayni, and he states that some even called him (the weak narrator - 'Abd al-Wahhab) a liar.

6) I completely agree that there is not only one correct opinion, and I agree that the position of 88 km is a valid position to follow.

7) My point with this discussion was to gain insights as to the background of the 77 km position. We know that it was a miscalculation, but still many people follow this position. Then you presented the 88 km position, and I acknowledge it as a valid position to follow, based on the ijtihad of some of the deobandi 'ulama who decided that it was better suited for their time and gave fatwa upon it. But at the same time, many deobandi 'ulama did not give fatwa according to it, some even gave fatwa according to the 77 km position, and most non-deobandi 'ulama of the Subcontinent gave fatwa upon 18 farsakhs, and kept to the original fatwa position.

In my opinion it is quite clear what the strongest position is - and yes, I say strongest and rely on the beforementioned 'ulama (Imam Ibn 'Abidin alone is proof enough for me) and their fatwas.

Of course, anyone else is welcome to follow any other valid position.

Wa as-salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah
al-Hanafi