The Newest Official Shia/Sunni Debates Thread

[al_islam]

Head Office of al-Azhar University:

IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL

Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency

Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot,

Head of the al-Azhar University,

On Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" School of Thought

His Excellency was asked:

Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?

His Excellency replied:

Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.


The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought.

Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).

Signed,

Mahmood Shaltoot.

Based on this ruling, Jafferi's are considered to be muslims.

Are there any refutations to this ruling, I understand it is widely acknowledged by most Sunni Ulema.

al_islam

[Saad]

No one from Ahle Sunnah take this fatwa seriously. It has been refuted.

Refutation is that all the major scholars for 1300 years considered Rawafid [Isna Ashris] to be outside the fold of Islam. And now in the 14th century, you have some who don't consider them non-Muslim, but even according to them, there is no such thing as Fiqh al-Jaffaria. Its totally what Shias made up and attributed it to their Imams.

[al_islam]

But even sunni's have belif upon the Progeny of Muhammad SAW.

Their Imams happen to be the Ahlul Bayt....so the Ahlul bayt must be loved and referred to in Islam.

For example the Shahadah of Hz Hussein RA at Krbala is for all muslims to look to not just some.

Also Hz Jaffer RA has been referred to in sunni fiqh.

We also hold a belief in Hz Mahdi RA and that Isa AS will pray behind him.

[Saad]

But even sunni's have belif upon the Progeny of Muhammad SAW.

Their Imams happen to be the Ahlul Bayt....so the Ahlul bayt must be loved and referred to in Islam.

For example the Shahadah of Hz Hussein RA at Krbala is for all muslims to look to not just some.

Also Hz Jaffer RA has been referred to in sunni fiqh.

We also hold a belief in Hz Mahdi RA and that Isa AS will pray behind him.

Yes, is it part of our aqeeda to love the Ahlel Bayat.

On the other hand Shias have nothing to do with Ahlel Bayat. They always betrayed them, and later on some of the Shia scholar wrote books and attributed false narrations to the Imams of Ahlel Bayat.

It was Shias who invited Hazrat Hussain to Iraq, and then betrayed him and many of them joined the army of ibn Ziyad.

Also Shia Mahdi is not same as what Sunnis believe about Hazrat Mahdi .

[al_islam]

On the other hand Shias have nothing to do with Ahlel Bayat. They always betrayed them, and later on some of the Shia scholar wrote books and attributed false narrations to the Imams of Ahlel Bayat.

It was Shias who invited Hazrat Hussain to Iraq, and then betrayed him and many of them joined the army of ibn Ziyad.

Also Shia Mahdi is not same as what Sunnis believe about Hazrat Mahdi .

Yes I did read how Ibn Muljim was a follwer of Hz Ali RA and the one who attacked him, after the debate over muawiyah's killers being handed over.

Do you have references to hich shia scholar it was and wen these books were written ?

Any reference for those who betrayed Hussein RA ?

[Saad]

Yes I did read how Ibn Muljim was a follwer of Hz Ali RA and the one who attacked him, after the debate over muawiyah's killers being handed over.

Do you have references to hich shia scholar it was and wen these books were written ?

Any reference for those who betrayed Hussein RA ?

The main book among Shias is called Al-Kafi which was written much after all their Imams have left this World. it was written by Ja'far Kulaini al-Razi [d 328]

Also here you can read, who killed Hazrat Hussain , as it was not only Yazid and his army who were responsible for this.

http://www.4shared.com/file/16295992...ified=6ea128eb

[yaQaim]

Yes, is it part of our aqeeda to love the Ahlel Bayat.

On the other hand Shias have nothing to do with Ahlel Bayat. They always betrayed them, and later on some of the Shia scholar wrote books and attributed false narrations to the Imams of Ahlel Bayat.

It was Shias who invited Hazrat Hussain to Iraq, and then betrayed him and many of them joined the army of ibn Ziyad.

Also Shia Mahdi is not same as what Sunnis believe about Hazrat Mahdi .

The word "shi'ah" means follower. it has been used in the qur'an to describe Nabi Ibraheem

At the time of most of the Ahlulbait (as), there weren't two groups called "shi'ah and "sunni". rather the "shi'ah" of Ahlulbait were those who followed them.

So how is it possible that those who betrayed Ahlulbait (as) were "shi'ah"?!!

the brave companions who stood by Imam Husain (as) right to the end were the "shi'ah" of Ahlulbait (as).

it is not possible that the Ahlulbait (as) were betrayed by "shi'ah"

Nowadays, "shi'ah" has become a word used to describe those people who follow Ahlulbait's (as) school of thought

Allah (swt) knows best

[fahid]

No one from Ahle Sunnah take this fatwa seriously. It has been refuted.

Refutation is that all the major scholars for 1300 years considered Rawafid [Isna Ashris] to be outside the fold of Islam. And now in the 14th century, you have some who don't consider them non-Muslim, but even according to them, there is no such thing as Fiqh al-Jaffaria. Its totally what Shias made up and attributed it to their Imams.

That is because brother Allah will NOT let those who has at least said La ila ha il'Allah with a mustard seed of good deeds burn in the fire forever. So anyone who says Rafida will be in hell forever is mistaken (that is IF they are under the condition I mentioned). Though the Rafida being Ahl-ul-Bida is agreeable.

[Saad]

That is because brother Allah will NOT let those who has at least said La ila ha il'Allah with a mustard seed of good deeds burn in the fire forever. So anyone who says Rafida will be in hell forever is mistaken (that is IF they are under the condition I mentioned). Though the Rafida being Ahl-ul-Bida is agreeable.

A kafir will always burn in hell forever, and it is agreed upon by the Ahle Sunnah.

Shias have negated their Shahada by holding many beliefs which are kufar. If you recite the Kalima but at the same time hold beliefs that are kufar, then you are outside the gold of Islam and you Shahada is of no use.

Allamah Abus Sa’ad [982. A.h.]. was asked about the Shias by the Ottoman Sultan and he replied:

"The radical shia [Rawafid] , who are regarded to be kafir , never shift away from their distorted beliefs. Together with this , they also read the Kalimah Shahadah and [to a certain extent] also follow the rules of the Shariah such as Fasting and Salaat . Despite this, they are kafir [and not muslims]."

And Shah Waliullah Dehlwi writes in his commentary of Muwatta:

"If a person testifies to Islam outwardly but explains certain fundamentals of religion contrary to that of the Sahabah the Taabi’een and the consensus of the Ummah, then such a person is a zindeeq [not Muslim]."

Just like Qadyanis also recite the Kalima but they deny the finality of the Prophethood, and this takes them outside the fold of Islam.

What you have mentioned above is about sinful Muslims, who didn't die on kufar, hence it is not applicable to Rawafid, Qadyanis, Nation of Islam etc. Unless you can provide me with quotes from classical scholars saying that a kafir will enter Jannah after some period of time?

[fahid]

A kafir will always burn in hell forever, and it is agreed upon by the Ahle Sunnah.

Shias have negated their Shahada by holding many beliefs which are kufar. If you recite the Kalima but at the same time hold beliefs that are kufar, then you are outside the gold of Islam and you Shahada is of no use.

Allamah Abus Sa’ad [982. A.h.]. was asked about the Shias by the Ottoman Sultan and he replied:

"The radical shia [Rawafid] , who are regarded to be kafir , never shift away from their distorted beliefs. Together with this , they also read the Kalimah Shahadah and [to a certain extent] also follow the rules of the Shariah such as Fasting and Salaat . Despite this, they are kafir [and not muslims]."

And Shah Waliullah Dehlwi writes in his commentary of Muwatta:

"If a person testifies to Islam outwardly but explains certain fundamentals of religion contrary to that of the Sahabah the Taabi’een and the consensus of the Ummah, then such a person is a zindeeq [not Muslim]."

Just like Qadyanis also recite the Kalima but they deny the finality of the Prophethood, and this takes them outside the fold of Islam.

What you have mentioned above is about sinful Muslims, who didn't die on kufar, hence it is not applicable to Rawafid, Qadyanis, Nation of Islam etc. Unless you can provide me with quotes from classical scholars saying that a kafir will enter Jannah after some period of time?

Has anyone ever declared that the Rafida will never be saved by Allah? I don't mean fatwas about them being kafr, I mean evidence that suggests that it is not for the Rawafid? I know the logic is if they are Kafr = Hell forever, I'm talking about the Rawafid specifically.

I also don't understand why Faraz Rabbani states that (LINK) "Notwithstanding the known disagreements between Sunnis and Shia, traditional Sunni scholarship has considered the Shia to be Muslim, and ultimately of the people of Heaven." unless it is based on the rulings about the Shia in the Shaf'i school specifically. Would he be considered a Kafr for saying that? Or is he misinformed? Or am I misinformed?