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Thread: The Newest Official Shia/Sunni Debates Thread

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    Default The Newest Official Shia/Sunni Debates Thread

    Head Office of al-Azhar University:

    IN THE NAME OF ALLAH, THE BENEFICENT, THE MERCIFUL

    Text of the Verdict (Fatwa) Issued by His Excellency

    Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot,

    Head of the al-Azhar University,

    On Permissibility of Following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" School of Thought

    His Excellency was asked:

    Some believe that, for a Muslim to have religiously correct worship and dealing, it is necessary to follow one of the four known schools of thought, whereas, "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah" school of thought is not one of them nor "al-Shia al-Zaidiyyah." Do your Excellency agree with this opinion, and prohibit following "al-Shia al-Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" school of thought, for example?

    His Excellency replied:

    Islam does not require a Muslim to follow a particular Madh'hab (school of thought). Rather, we say: every Muslim has the right to follow one of the schools of thought which has been correctly narrated and its verdicts have been compiled in its books. And, everyone who is following such Madhahib [schools of thought] can transfer to another school, and there shall be no crime on him for doing so.


    The Ja'fari school of thought, which is also known as "al-Shia al- Imamiyyah al-Ithna Ashariyyah" (i.e., The Twelver Imami Shi'ites) is a school of thought that is religiously correct to follow in worship as are other Sunni schools of thought.

    Muslims must know this, and ought to refrain from unjust prejudice to any particular school of thought, since the religion of Allah and His Divine Law (Shari'ah) was never restricted to a particular school of thought. Their jurists (Mujtahidoon) are accepted by Almighty Allah, and it is permissible to the "non-Mujtahid" to follow them and to accord with their teaching whether in worship (Ibadaat) or transactions (Mu'amilaat).

    Signed,

    Mahmood Shaltoot.
    Based on this ruling, Jafferi's are considered to be muslims.

    Are there any refutations to this ruling, I understand it is widely acknowledged by most Sunni Ulema.

    al_islam


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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    No one from Ahle Sunnah take this fatwa seriously. It has been refuted.

    Refutation is that all the major scholars for 1300 years considered Rawafid [Isna Ashris] to be outside the fold of Islam. And now in the 14th century, you have some who don't consider them non-Muslim, but even according to them, there is no such thing as Fiqh al-Jaffaria. Its totally what Shias made up and attributed it to their Imams.
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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    But even sunni's have belif upon the Progeny of Muhammad SAW.

    Their Imams happen to be the Ahlul Bayt....so the Ahlul bayt must be loved and referred to in Islam.

    For example the Shahadah of Hz Hussein RA at Krbala is for all muslims to look to not just some.

    Also Hz Jaffer RA has been referred to in sunni fiqh.

    We also hold a belief in Hz Mahdi RA and that Isa AS will pray behind him.


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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    From my understanding, there isn't really an established Jafari Madhab in comparison to other Madhabs as there isn't sound transmission from the Imams, meaning the "Madhab" was much later established.
    Abu Sa’id (ra) said that Rasullilah (salalahi alahi wasalam) said, “Whoever says:

    Radeetu billahi rabban, wa bil-Islaami deenan, wa bi-Muhammadin rasoolan

    Jannah becomes obligatory for him (to enter).
    [Abu-Dawud]

    - Best said in Morning and Evening with "Nabiyan wa rasoolan"


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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Quote Originally Posted by al_islam View Post
    But even sunni's have belif upon the Progeny of Muhammad SAW.

    Their Imams happen to be the Ahlul Bayt....so the Ahlul bayt must be loved and referred to in Islam.

    For example the Shahadah of Hz Hussein RA at Krbala is for all muslims to look to not just some.

    Also Hz Jaffer RA has been referred to in sunni fiqh.

    We also hold a belief in Hz Mahdi RA and that Isa AS will pray behind him.
    Yes, is it part of our aqeeda to love the Ahlel Bayat.

    On the other hand Shias have nothing to do with Ahlel Bayat. They always betrayed them, and later on some of the Shia scholar wrote books and attributed false narrations to the Imams of Ahlel Bayat.

    It was Shias who invited Hazrat Hussain to Iraq, and then betrayed him and many of them joined the army of ibn Ziyad.

    Also Shia Mahdi is not same as what Sunnis believe about Hazrat Mahdi .
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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Quote Originally Posted by khanbaba View Post
    No one from Ahle Sunnah take this fatwa seriously. It has been refuted.

    Refutation is that all the major scholars for 1300 years considered Rawafid [Isna Ashris] to be outside the fold of Islam. And now in the 14th century, you have some who don't consider them non-Muslim, but even according to them, there is no such thing as Fiqh al-Jaffaria. Its totally what Shias made up and attributed it to their Imams.
    That is because brother Allah will NOT let those who has at least said La ila ha il'Allah with a mustard seed of good deeds burn in the fire forever. So anyone who says Rafida will be in hell forever is mistaken (that is IF they are under the condition I mentioned). Though the Rafida being Ahl-ul-Bida is agreeable.
    Abu Sa’id (ra) said that Rasullilah (salalahi alahi wasalam) said, “Whoever says:

    Radeetu billahi rabban, wa bil-Islaami deenan, wa bi-Muhammadin rasoolan

    Jannah becomes obligatory for him (to enter).
    [Abu-Dawud]

    - Best said in Morning and Evening with "Nabiyan wa rasoolan"


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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Quote Originally Posted by khanbaba View Post
    On the other hand Shias have nothing to do with Ahlel Bayat. They always betrayed them, and later on some of the Shia scholar wrote books and attributed false narrations to the Imams of Ahlel Bayat.

    It was Shias who invited Hazrat Hussain to Iraq, and then betrayed him and many of them joined the army of ibn Ziyad.

    Also Shia Mahdi is not same as what Sunnis believe about Hazrat Mahdi .
    Yes I did read how Ibn Muljim was a follwer of Hz Ali RA and the one who attacked him, after the debate over muawiyah's killers being handed over.

    Do you have references to hich shia scholar it was and wen these books were written ?

    Any reference for those who betrayed Hussein RA ?


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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Quote Originally Posted by fahid View Post
    That is because brother Allah will NOT let those who has at least said La ila ha il'Allah with a mustard seed of good deeds burn in the fire forever. So anyone who says Rafida will be in hell forever is mistaken (that is IF they are under the condition I mentioned). Though the Rafida being Ahl-ul-Bida is agreeable.
    A kafir will always burn in hell forever, and it is agreed upon by the Ahle Sunnah.

    Shias have negated their Shahada by holding many beliefs which are kufar. If you recite the Kalima but at the same time hold beliefs that are kufar, then you are outside the gold of Islam and you Shahada is of no use.

    Allamah Abus Sa’ad [982. A.h.]. was asked about the Shias by the Ottoman Sultan and he replied:

    "The radical shia [Rawafid] , who are regarded to be kafir , never shift away from their distorted beliefs. Together with this , they also read the Kalimah Shahadah and [to a certain extent] also follow the rules of the Shariah such as Fasting and Salaat . Despite this, they are kafir [and not muslims]."

    And Shah Waliullah Dehlwi writes in his commentary of Muwatta:

    "If a person testifies to Islam outwardly but explains certain fundamentals of religion contrary to that of the Sahabah the Taabi’een and the consensus of the Ummah, then such a person is a zindeeq [not Muslim]."

    Just like Qadyanis also recite the Kalima but they deny the finality of the Prophethood, and this takes them outside the fold of Islam.

    What you have mentioned above is about sinful Muslims, who didn't die on kufar, hence it is not applicable to Rawafid, Qadyanis, Nation of Islam etc. Unless you can provide me with quotes from classical scholars saying that a kafir will enter Jannah after some period of time?
    Last edited by Saad; 08-01-2008 at 03:34 AM.
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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Quote Originally Posted by al_islam View Post
    Yes I did read how Ibn Muljim was a follwer of Hz Ali RA and the one who attacked him, after the debate over muawiyah's killers being handed over.

    Do you have references to hich shia scholar it was and wen these books were written ?

    Any reference for those who betrayed Hussein RA ?
    The main book among Shias is called Al-Kafi which was written much after all their Imams have left this World. it was written by Ja'far Kulaini al-Razi [d 328]

    Also here you can read, who killed Hazrat Hussain , as it was not only Yazid and his army who were responsible for this.

    http://www.4shared.com/file/16295992...ified=6ea128eb
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    Default Re: Al Azhar's Ruling on Ithna Asheri

    Also:

    The Myth of a "Ja’fari" Madhhab

    Muhammad Jamaal Abdul Wahid Hanifa Qadiri

    A lot of Muslims who are sincere, but not undereducated in their Deen, are led to accept a myth of a so-called "fifth Madhhab" referred to as the "Ja’fari Madhhab," supposedly named after Imam Ja’far as-Sadiq (radiyallahu ‘anh). Such people are unaware of the fact that no such Madhhab exists, isn’t accepted by Muslims as a "fifth Madhhab," and is an attempt by Shiites to gain acceptance from Muslims under the guise of a school of Islamic Law. Examining this "Madhhab" one unknowingly thinks, "This is very similar to the Maliki and Hanafi Madhhab." A brief look at the history of his hoax is needed in order to understand its inception.

    Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (radiyallahu ‘anh) was a blessed Wali of Allah who revived al-Islam in Madinah, upholding the letter and spirit of al-Islam. He is Sayyid Ja’far bin Muhammad bin Ali bin al-Husain bin Ali bin Abu Talib, son of Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, father of Imam Musa al-Kazim (radiyallahu ‘anhuma).

    As it is well known, the Four Imams of Fiqh (Imam al-A’zam Abu Hanifah, Imam Malik bin ‘Anas, Imam Muhammad al-Shafi’, and Imam Ahmad bin Hambal) wrote many books pertaining to Islamic Jurisprudence, Doctrine, and Worship. Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (radiyallahu ‘anh) did not write any books on such matters, but as related in Asmaa’ul-Mu’allifeen, three books were written by Imam Ja’far: 1.) Taqseemi-Ru’ya, 2.) Jami’atu fil-Jafr, and 3.) Kitabul-Jafr. The word "Jafr" means a four month-old lamb. When referenced in scientific terminology, the word "Jafr" relates to a branch of predicting future events beforehand. In Kamusul-A’lam, it is related that the first book written in this science was by Hazrat Babul-‘Ilm Ali bin Abu Talib (karramallah wajhah). Two of the three books written by Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq were written on sheets of sheepskin, and because of this, the science dealt with in these two books was named "Jafr."

    A book titled Imami Ja’far Buyrugu, in the possession of Shiites today, was written by a man named Ja’far bin Husain al-Qummi (d. AD 951), who was the first to write on religious practice in the Shi’ah religion. Abu Ja’far Muhammad al-Tusi (d. AD 1068) wrote another book, titled Risala-i Ja’fariyyah, a commentary consisting of twenty volumes. Putting forward the books written by the two Ja’fars (al-Qummi and al-Tusi), Shiites name themselves "Ja’fari," thus attempting to project that they are directly following Hazrat Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, the way that Muslims who are Hanafi or Hanbali actually follow Imam Abu Hanifah or Imam Ahmad bin Hambal, respectively. Exploiting the similarity between the words "Ja’far" and "Jafr," Shiites assert that these two books, authored by Abu Ja’far al-Tusi and Ja’far al-Qummi, were written by Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (radiyallahu ‘anh).

    The "Ja’fari" Madhhab is a case of word games being played. The Four Madhhabs of Islam (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, and Hambali) were either founded by the Imams themselves or by their students who expounded upon the decisions of the Imams. The ‘Ilm of Hazrat Ja’far al-Sadiq can only find it in the Madhhabs of Imam al-A’zam Abu Hanifah and Imam Malik bin Anas (rahmatullahi alaihima), both of whom were the only students of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq to have a Madhhab founded. Thus, the true "Madhhab of Ahlul-Bait" resides within the Hanafi and Maliki Madhhabs. The nisbah with the Ahlul-Bait is prevalent in both. The Maliki Madhhab connects with Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq. The Hanafi Madhhab connects to a total of four Imams from amongst the Ahli-Bait. In addition to the gaining of ‘Ilm from Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq, Imam Abu Hanifah gained ‘Ilm from Imam Muhammad al-Baqir and Imam Zaid bin Ali Shaheed (radiyallahu ‘anhuma). The Sahibain (Imam Muhammd al-Shaibani and Imam Abu Yusuf al-Ansari) gained ‘Ilm from Imam Musa bin Ja’far al-Kazim (rahmatullahi ‘alaih).

    From the facts presented, it is clear that the "Ja’fari Madhhab" is not only a non-existant (or legitimate) school of Islamic Law, but it is merely a cloak utilized by Shiites, with their ‘Ulama plagiarizing many of the works of Islamic Jurists and placing the name Ja’fari upon them. If one wishes to gain the Fiqh of Imam Ja’far al-Sadiq (radiyallahu ‘anh), then one does not have to look any further than the Hanafi or Maliki Madhhab.
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