The Newest Official Shia/Sunni Debates Thread

[MohammadMufti]

That is because brother Allah will NOT let those who has at least said La ila ha il'Allah with a mustard seed of good deeds burn in the fire forever. So anyone who says Rafida will be in hell forever is mistaken (that is IF they are under the condition I mentioned). Though the Rafida being Ahl-ul-Bida is agreeable.

Rafidha are Kufar by the beliefs in rajah, Imamah superior to Anbiya, tahrif etc. Those who don't believe that (lay-Rafidis) are Ahlul Biddah. Other Shi'a can be ahlul bida but not Rafidha. This one fatwa contradicts HUNDREDS that preceded by far more eminent and learned scholars (with regards to Rafidha). There is a beautiful book on HCY site with numerous fatawa on this and before the threads were down, there was a beautiful thread with numerous positions of past ulema being translated by brothers like Efendi.

Furthermore, La-Illaha-Ill-Allah has it's conditions, it is an idiocy to say that a man can say the Kalima while bowing to Kal or Al Uzza, the act nullifies the word. And the ahadith say anyone with a mustard seed of iman/faith (I haven't seen 'good deeds' but wallahu alam). So it is in reference to those who are Muslim but are bad Muslims. How is it a reference to Mushriks?

Their Imams happen to be the Ahlul Bayt....so the Ahlul bayt must be loved and referred to in Islam.

For example the Shahadah of Hz Hussein RA at Krbala is for all muslims to look to not just some.

The Imams are not from Ahlul bayt except three, the rest of them (the ones that existed -rahimullah-) are aal al bayt, progeny, not house. As for the Al Azhar fatwa - than the following is the fatwa from Al Azhar produced in 1997 by Sheikh `Atiyyah Saqr, former head of Al-Azhar Fatwa Committee as was brought up by a brother Al Kulayni (I extracted the portion concerning 12ers which will be very good if someone can translate it - I didn't bring the other portions but I can no request)

- الإمامية :
وهم الذين قالوا بإمامة اثنى عشر من آل البيت ، ويسمون بالاثنى عشرية وبالموسوية ، لأن الأئمة عندهم هم : على، الحسن ، الحسين ، على زين العابدين بن الحسين ، وكانت الإمامة لابنه الأكبر "زيد" فلما رفضوه كما تقدم ولوا بدله أخاه محمدا الباقر، ثم جعفر الصادق ، وكان له ستة أولاد ، أكبرهم إسماعيل ثم موسى ، ولما مات إسماعيل فى حياة أبيه أوصى والده بالإمامه إلى ابنه موسى الكاظم ، وبعد وفاة جعفر انقسم الأتباع فمنهم من استمر على إمامة إسماعيل وهم : الإسماعيلية أو السبعية، والباقون اعترفوا بموسى الكاظم ، وهم الموسوية ، ومن بعده على الرضا ، ثم ابنه محمد الجواد ، ثم ابنه على الهادى ، ثم ابنه الحسن العسكرى نسبة إلى مدينة العسكر "سامرا" وهو الإمام الحادى عشر، ثم ابنه محمد الإمام الثانى عشر، وقد مات ولم يعقب فوقف تسلسل الأئمة وكانت وفاته سنة265 هـ .
ويقول الإمامية : إنه دخل سردابا فى "سامرا" فلم يمت ، وسيرجع بعد ذلك باسم المهدى المنتظر .
وهذه الطائفة منتشرة فى إيران والعراق وسوريا ولبنان ، ومنهم جماعات متفرقة فى أنحاء العالم ، ولهم كتب ومؤلفات كثيرة من أهمها كتاب "الوافى" فى ثلاثة مجلدات كبيرة جمعت كثيرا مما فى كتبهم الأخرى ، كتب عليه أحد أهل السنة نقدا سماه "الوشيعة فى نقد عقائد الشيعة" وكان ذلك فى فبراير سنة1935 م كما كتب رئيس أهل السنة بباكستان "محمد عبد الستار التونسوى" رسالة فى ذلك .
ومن أهم أصولهم :

1 - تكفير الصحابة ولعنهم ، وبخاصة أبو بكر وعمر رضى الله عنهما إلا عددا قليلا جدا كانوا موالين لعلى رضى الله عنه . وقد رووا عن الباقر والصادق : ثلاثة لا يكلَّمهم الله يوم القيامة ولا يزكيهم ولهم عذاب أليم . من ادعى إمامة ليست له ومن جحد إماما من عند اللّه ، ومن زعم أن أبا بكر وعمر لهما نصيب فى الإسلام .
ويقولون : إن عائشة وحفصة رضى الله عنهما كافرتان مخلدتان ، مؤولين عليهما قول الله تعالى{ضرب الله مثلا للذين كفروا امرأة نوح وامرأة لوط } التحريم : 10 .

2 - ادعاء أن القرآن الموجود فى المصاحف الآن ناقص ، لأن منافقى الصحابة (هكذا) حذفوا منه ما يخص عليا وذريته ، وأن القرآن الذى نزل به جبريل على محمد سبعة آلاف آية ، والموجود الآن 6263 والباقى مخزون عند آل البيت فيما جمعه على، والقائم على أمر آل البيت يخرج المصحف الذى كتبه على ، وهو غائب بغيبة الإمام .

3-رفض كل رواية تأتى عن غير أئمتهم ، فهم عندهم معصومون بل قال بعضهم : إن عصمتهم أثبت من عصمة الأنبياء .

4 - التقية : وهى إظهار خلاف العقيدة الباطنة ، لدفع السوء عنهم .

5 - الجهاد غير مشروع الآن ، وذلك لغيبة الإمام ، والجهاد مع غيره حرام ولا يطاع ، ولا شهيد فى حرب إلا من كان من الشيعة، حتى لو مات على فراشه .

وهناك تفريعات كثيرة على هذه الأصول منها :
عدم اهتمامهم بحفظ القرآن انتظارا لمصحف الإمام ، وقولهم بالبداء بمعنى أن الله يبدو له شىء لم يكن يعلمه من قبل ويتأسف على ما فعل ، والجمعة معطَّلة فى كثير من مساجدهم وذلك لغيبة الإمام ، ويبيحون تصوير سيدنا محمد وسيدنا على وصورهما تباع أمام المشاهد والأضرحة، ويدينون بلعن أبى بكر وعمر . . .

[fahid]

A kafir will always burn in hell forever, and it is agreed upon by the Ahle Sunnah.

Shias have negated their Shahada by holding many beliefs which are kufar. If you recite the Kalima but at the same time hold beliefs that are kufar, then you are outside the gold of Islam and you Shahada is of no use.

Allamah Abus Sa’ad [982. A.h.]. was asked about the Shias by the Ottoman Sultan and he replied:

"The radical shia [Rawafid] , who are regarded to be kafir , never shift away from their distorted beliefs. Together with this , they also read the Kalimah Shahadah and [to a certain extent] also follow the rules of the Shariah such as Fasting and Salaat . Despite this, they are kafir [and not muslims]."

And Shah Waliullah Dehlwi writes in his commentary of Muwatta:

"If a person testifies to Islam outwardly but explains certain fundamentals of religion contrary to that of the Sahabah the Taabi’een and the consensus of the Ummah, then such a person is a zindeeq [not Muslim]."

Just like Qadyanis also recite the Kalima but they deny the finality of the Prophethood, and this takes them outside the fold of Islam.

What you have mentioned above is about sinful Muslims, who didn't die on kufar, hence it is not applicable to Rawafid, Qadyanis, Nation of Islam etc. Unless you can provide me with quotes from classical scholars saying that a kafir will enter Jannah after some period of time?

Has anyone ever declared that the Rafida will never be saved by Allah? I don't mean fatwas about them being kafr, I mean evidence that suggests that it is not for the Rawafid? I know the logic is if they are Kafr = Hell forever, I'm talking about the Rawafid specifically.

I also don't understand why Faraz Rabbani states that (LINK) "Notwithstanding the known disagreements between Sunnis and Shia, traditional Sunni scholarship has considered the Shia to be Muslim, and ultimately of the people of Heaven." unless it is based on the rulings about the Shia in the Shaf'i school specifically. Would he be considered a Kafr for saying that? Or is he misinformed? Or am I misinformed?

[MohammadMufti]

Has anyone ever declared that the Rafida will never be saved by Allah? I don't mean fatwas about them being kafr, I mean evidence that suggests that it is not for the Rawafid? I know the logic is if they are Kafr = Hell forever, I'm talking about the Rawafid specifically.

I also don't understand why Faraz Rabbani states that (LINK) "Notwithstanding the known disagreements between Sunnis and Shia, traditional Sunni scholarship has considered the Shia to be Muslim, and ultimately of the people of Heaven." unless it is based on the rulings about the Shia in the Shaf'i school specifically.

The saying of the sheikh (rah) is not in contradiction because those Shi'a who are not on shirk akbar are usually just ahlul biddah. Brother Jaysh mentions this and he quotes Sheikh Ibn Adam:

--
According to the classical and the majority of contemporary scholars, there are two types of Shi’as:

a)Those that hold beliefs that constitute disbelief (kufr)…shi’as that hold such beliefs are without a doubt out of the fold of Islam.
b)Those who do not hold beliefs that constitute Kufr…Such Shi’as can not be termed as out of the fold of Islam, rather they are considered to be severely deviated and transgressors (fisq).
--
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/is...sidered-muslim

[fahid]

The saying of the sheikh (rah) is not in contradiction because those Shi'a who are not on shirk akbar are usually just ahlul biddah. Brother Jaysh mentions this and he quotes Sheikh Ibn Adam:

--
According to the classical and the majority of contemporary scholars, there are two types of Shi’as:

a)Those that hold beliefs that constitute disbelief (kufr)…shi’as that hold such beliefs are without a doubt out of the fold of Islam.
b)Those who do not hold beliefs that constitute Kufr…Such Shi’as can not be termed as out of the fold of Islam, rather they are considered to be severely deviated and transgressors (fisq).
--
http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/is...sidered-muslim

Makes sense, Jazak Allah Khairun.

[al_islam]

Translation of arabic text:

They merit alone regardless of who said twelve of the House, called due Palmossuyh and places, because they have imams are: Ali Hassan, Hussein, the Zine El Abidine Ben Al Hussein, the eldest son of the imamate "Zeid" When they had refused and also provides the first suit his brother Muhammad Baqir, and then Jafar Sadiq, and has six children, the oldest Ismail Musa then, and when he died in the life of his father, Ismail recommended father to son Balamamh Moussa Al-Kazim's Shrine, after the death of Jafar split followers Some continued on him Ismail They are: Ismailia or Seventh, and the remainder Moses confessed Al-Kazim's Shrine, and they Mosaic, and several satisfactory, and then his son, Mohammed Jawad, and then to his son Hadi, and his son Hasan al-Askari proportion to the city of the military "Samaria", a ten forward atheist, and then his son Imam Muhammad XII, died not cease sequence followed imams and the death 265 years e.
He says the front: It entered reconnaissance in the "Samaria" has died, and then would come back as the Mahdi expected.
This community is spread in Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon, including groups scattered around the world, and have many books and literature of the most important book "adequate" in three large volumes collected much of their books in other books by a Sunni cash called "coil in the criticism of Shiite beliefs "This was in February 1935 as Chairman wrote Sunni Pakistan" Mohammed Abdel-Sattar Altonsoi "is a message in that.
One of the most important assets:

1 - atonement and their companions, especially Abu Bakr and Omar Ali bin them only very few who are loyal may Allah be pleased with him. The ROUEN on Baqir and sincere: three Ichaelmanm not God on the Day of Judgement and not praise them is a painful punishment. Of the alleged door to him is not connected Amama from God, and claimed that Abu Bakr and Omar have a share in Islam.
They say: The Aisha and write their blessings God Ccaffrtan Makhldtan, Mlin they say God Almighty God (striking example of those who disbelieve woman Noah and Lot woman) prohibition: 10.

2 - claim that the Koran found in books now minus, because hypocrites Sahaba (sic) omitted from the high regard his offspring, and the Quran, which was sent down to Muhammad Jibril seven thousand Yeah, and who is now 6263 and the rest in stock in the House on Friday, which is based on is the House leaves Mus written by Ali, which is absent absence forward.

3 - rejection of all novel comes as other imams, they own but have said some of them: The Fallibility of Asmthm proved prophets.

4 - precautionary: They show otherwise creed Batinah to push them bad.

5 - Jihad illegal now, for the absence of forward, and the Islamic Jihad with other religiously obeyed, and a martyr in a war only from the Shiites, even if he died on his bed.

There are many ramifications of such assets, including:
Non-interest conservation Quran Tajweed pending forward, and saying Balbda sense that God seems to have something not known before and apologizes for what he has done, and Friday disabled in many mosques and to the absence of forward, and Ibihon imaging prophet Mohammed and Jesus and their forms to be sold to the viewer and shrines, condemned curse Abu Bakr and Omar. . .

[MohammadMufti]

5 - Jihad illegal now, for the absence of forward, and the Islamic Jihad with other religiously obeyed, and a martyr in a war only from the Shiites, even if he died on his bed.

Did you put it through google or altavista because this was a rather basic sentence about how jihad is null during ghaybat of the Imam. And the later so on.

[al_islam]

Did you put it through google or altavista because this was a rather basic sentence about how jihad is null during ghaybat of the Imam. And the later so on.

Google.

I couldnt wait for a translation....

Feel free to correct it, some of it doesnt make sense !

[Saad]

Has anyone ever declared that the Rafida will never be saved by Allah? I don't mean fatwas about them being kafr, I mean evidence that suggests that it is not for the Rawafid? I know the logic is if they are Kafr = Hell forever, I'm talking about the Rawafid specifically.

I also don't understand why Faraz Rabbani states that (LINK) "Notwithstanding the known disagreements between Sunnis and Shia, traditional Sunni scholarship has considered the Shia to be Muslim, and ultimately of the people of Heaven." unless it is based on the rulings about the Shia in the Shaf'i school specifically. Would he be considered a Kafr for saying that? Or is he misinformed? Or am I misinformed?

1. Ok first of all do you agree that a kafir will reside in the hellfire for ever? So the majority has always considered Rawafid to be outside the fold of Islam.

2.As far as Farraz Rabbani, then he is 100% wrong in saying that Sunni scholarship considered Shias to be Muslim. Infact I contacted him few months back, and provided him with 10s of Fatwas of Classical scholars where they stated that Rawafid are kafir. His answer was unfriendly and basically said that why did you send me this fatwa.

3. Farraz Rabbani is Hanafi and not Shafi and Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Muhammed have already declared Rawafid to be non-Muslim, so what affect can Shaykh Farraz have on the fatwas of the founders of Hanafi Madhab?

4. I am sure you have read the fatwa of Kufar of Imam Malik abot Rawafid. And all the scholars of his time agreed with it including Imam Shafi . Hafiz ibn Hajjar al-Haithami after quoting the fatwa of kufar of Imam Malik writes in Asawaiqul Muhriqa:

ومن ثم وافقه الشافعي رضي الله تعالى عنهما في قوله بكفرهم ووافقه أيضا جماعه من الأئمة

Therefore Imam Shafi has agreed with Him [Imam Malik] on the verdict of declaring them [Rawafid] kafir and a large group of the Imams too.

And it also common knowledge that the deviancy of the Rawafid increaed as time passed by. Many of their beliefs were added later on, after the 4 Imams. So if this was the attitude of regarding them during those time, imagine if these Imams had known other beliefs of Rawafid.

4. There were scholars who studied Shiaism in detail and wrote many books on their refutaion and decalared them non-Muslim, like Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jailani, Hafiz ibn Taymiya, Shah Abdul Aziz, Mujaddad Alf-e-Sani and Shah Waliullah Dehlvi and many more.

Shah Abdul Aziz Dehlvi wrote a magnum-opus refuting Shias, called Tuhfa Isna Ashria, and cleary said:

اكفرهم الشاه العبد العزيز وقال ان من لم يكفرهم لم يدر عقائدهم

Whoever doesn't consider them kafir, is not aware of their beliefs.

5. So if Shaykh Farraz Rabbani, by Shia, was referring to Zaidis or Shias in generel, then he is correct. Here we are talking about Rawafid [Isna Ashris/Twelvers]. They are outside the fold of Islam.

[Saad]

Makes sense, Jazak Allah Khairun.

Also if someone doesn't consider Isna Ashris to be non-Muslim, then if you use a different approach, he will agree with you.

Here are the accepted beliefs of Isna Ashris.

1. Belief that their Imams are masoom [infallable], receive Wahi, are superior to some, many or most of the Prophets.

2. Consider it permissible to abuse and criticise the Sahaba.

3. Belief in Rajat [coming of the their Imams back to life before Qiyamat].

4. Denying the Khlilaft of the Shaikhain.

5. Regarding Muttah as Halal.

6. And also keep in mind, Taqqiya, most time they don't show their real beliefs.

Now if you read the classical books of Ahle Sunnah, you will find that these beliefs were considered kufar.

[al_islam]

Just to conclude then:

Its safe to say the first Fatwa by Al-Azhar in 1959, July 6 Shaikh al-Akbar Mahmood Shaltoot, was based on misconceptions ?

Its just a certain website seems to have over 100 letters, which it claims are converstaion between the scholars....but it needs checking:

http://*************/murajaat/index.htm

And the later 1997 fatwa is more accurate ?