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Thread: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

  1. #11
    Senior Member ammardiwan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Ok how about audio/video debates betweens scholars in Urdu
    Al-Layth said: "If I saw a person of desires (i.e. innovations) walking upon the water I would not accept from him." So Imam as-Shafii then said: "He (al-Layth) has fallen short. If I saw him walking in the air I would not accept from him."

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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by ammardiwan View Post
    Ok how about audio/video debates betweens scholars in Urdu
    None, nowdays Shias refuse to debate Sunni scholars.
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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by ammardiwan View Post
    Ok how about audio/video debates betweens scholars in Urdu
    Asslamo Allaikum,

    They have been battered so many times they don't take chances anymore.


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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by Muadh_Khan View Post
    Asslamo Allaikum,

    They have been battered so many times they don't take chances anymore.
    How about old debates?
    Al-Layth said: "If I saw a person of desires (i.e. innovations) walking upon the water I would not accept from him." So Imam as-Shafii then said: "He (al-Layth) has fallen short. If I saw him walking in the air I would not accept from him."

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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by ammardiwan View Post
    How about old debates?
    You can find those in Pakistan, but nothing is available online.

    There was a debate between Dr. Allamah Khalid Mahmood and Shia mujtahid Ayatullah Hussaini in Durbin, South Africa on the topic of Taqiya.

    Ayatullah Hussani was also working for Iranian Embassay at that time. He was called back to Iran after that debate and all Shias were barred from debating Sunnis.

    Here you can read that debate.

    http://www.kr-hcy.com/Taqiya-Na-Kijiye/index.shtml
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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by khanbaba View Post
    You can find those in Pakistan, but nothing is available online.

    There was a debate between Dr. Allamah Khalid Mahmood and Shia mujtahid Ayatullah Hussaini in Durbin, South Africa on the topic of Taqiya.

    Ayatullah Hussani was also working for Iranian Embassay at that time. He was called back to Iran after that debate and all Shias were barred from debating Sunnis.

    Here you can read that debate.

    http://www.kr-hcy.com/Taqiya-Na-Kijiye/index.shtml
    I'm not too good at reading Urdu
    Al-Layth said: "If I saw a person of desires (i.e. innovations) walking upon the water I would not accept from him." So Imam as-Shafii then said: "He (al-Layth) has fallen short. If I saw him walking in the air I would not accept from him."

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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Debates between the laymen are not usually beneficial because there is often errors and the debates are more like reading articles on the topic anyways since you will have one person essentially controlling floor and the other is usually completely ignorant. But there was an interesting one between a brother Al Hajjaj and the Shi'a admins/mods which you can read here. And there is a number of topics/debates between the laymen on shii chat and HCY forums. Also there is online debates in audio on Paltalk but I only saw one time that it was recorded and I haven't heard the whole debate so I don't know what happened in it (2 hrs).
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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    Quote Originally Posted by MohammadMufti View Post
    Debates between the laymen are not usually beneficial because there is often errors and the debates are more like reading articles on the topic anyways since you will have one person essentially controlling floor and the other is usually completely ignorant. But there was an interesting one between a brother Al Hajjaj and the Shi'a admins/mods which you can read here. And there is a number of topics/debates between the laymen on shii chat and HCY forums. Also there is online debates in audio on Paltalk but I only saw one time that it was recorded and I haven't heard the whole debate so I don't know what happened in it (2 hrs).
    Where can I find the debates between the laymen on shia chat and HCY forums?
    Al-Layth said: "If I saw a person of desires (i.e. innovations) walking upon the water I would not accept from him." So Imam as-Shafii then said: "He (al-Layth) has fallen short. If I saw him walking in the air I would not accept from him."

    My temporary blog: http://ammardiwan.muslimblogz.com/


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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    THE CREED OF THE SHI'AISM

    Shi'aism and Islam are indeed different religions. The divergence of Shi'aism from Islam can be summarized from the books which they consider most authentic, and the statements of their most respected scholars. Some of the proofs available to support this position are as follows:

    1) The Imaami Shia do not believe in or accept authentic texts such as Saheeh Al- Bukhaaree, Saheeh Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawood or others. Indeed, regarding Imam Al-Bukhaaree, a Shia scholar, Abdullah as-Subayti states: "He has transmitted strange and even abominable tales unsuitable even for the minds of superstitious Berbers and old Sudani women." (Taht Rayah)

    2) According to Imaami Shia doctrine, the vast majority of the Sah‚bah were liars and apostates.

    One of the leading scholars of the Shia, al-Kashshi, reported that Abu Ja'far said: "The people (including the Sah‚bah) all became apostates after the Prophet's death except for three." When asked who they were, he replied, "Al-Miqdad ibn Aswad, Abu Dharr, and Salman as mentioned in the verse, 'If he (Muhammad) dies or is killed, will you then turn on your heels.'" (Rijal al-Kashshi pp12-13) .

    In the book "Al-Kafi fil-Usool, a collection of Ahaadeeth attributed to the Prophet SAWS and some of the Imams of the Shia, and held in the same esteem amongst Shia as Saheeh Bukhaaree is amongst the Ahl us-Sunnah, we find the following:

    "Obedience to 'Ali is true humility and disobedience to him is disbelief in Allah." (vol.10 p.54)

    "Whoever sets up another Imam besides 'Ali and delays 'Ali's caliphate is a polytheist." (vol.10 p.55) (this "Ahaadeeth" refers to everyone who accepts the validity of the caliphates of Abu Bakr, 'Umar and Uthmaan. The Shia claim that the caliphate was stolen from 'Ali, and only he and his descendants have the right to rule the Muslims)

    "Syrians are worse than the Romans, Madinaites worse than Meccans, and Meccans openly disbelieve in Allah." (vol.10 p.107)

    In explanation of the verse: "On the day when the wrong-doer bites his hands saying, 'O if only I had taken the right path with the Prophet! O woe is me, if only I had not taken so-and-so as a friend!" (25:27-28) One of the most highly respected scholars of Tafseer amongst the Shia, Al-Qummi, states that "so-and-so" is 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab(RA).

    In reference to Talhah(RA) and az-Zubayr(RA), Al-Qummi claims that Abu Ja'far said that the following verse was revealed about them; "Verily the doors of Heaven will not open for those who deny Our signs and are arrogant towards them, nor will they enter paradise until a camel passes through the eye of a needle."(7:40) He also adds that the camel in the verse refers to their camel. Thus, according to Al-Qummi, Talhah(RA) and az-Zubayr(RA), who were both amongst the ten who received glad tidings of paradise from the Prophet SAWS himself, will never enter paradise!

    Imami Shia doctrine holds that most of the Sah‚bah were the worst sort of liars and apostates all. There is even a special dua, called "Dua Sanamay Quraysh" (The two Idols of the Quraysh). In this prayer (falsely attributed to Abdullah ibn Abbas) Both Abu Bakr (RA) and 'Umar (RA) are cursed, and called "the two idols of the Quraysh". Shirk (disbelief) is attributed to the two caliphs, and their daughters, Aaishah and Hafsah, both wives of the Prophet SAWS, are vilified. The prayer is published with the endorsement of the following major Imami Shia scholars:

    1) Ayatallah al-Udhma Muhsin al-Hakeem .

    2) Ayatallah al-Udhma Abul-Qasim al-Khoi .

    3) Ayatallah al-Udhma Roohullah al-Khomeini .

    4) Ayatallah al-Udhma Mahmood al-Husaini .

    5) Ayatallah al-Udhma Muhammad Kadhim Shri'atmadari .

    6) The chief scholar 'Ali Taqi at-Taqwa .

    Imami Shia doctrine in fact holds that all who do not follow their doctrine are disbelievers and apostate from Islam, with the following hadith from Al-Kafi cited in support:

    "Doubt about the Imamate of 'Ali is like doubt about the mission of Muhammad SAWS and one who doubts both should be killed if possible, if he claims to be a muslim. On the other hand, disbelievers are like the Jews and Christians and should not be killed for these reasons." (al-Kafi vol.6 p.393)

    3) The Imami Shia have not only misinterpreted the Qur'an, but they have made actual alterations in the text itself:

    The false verse, "And we made 'Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-Inshirah (Al-Kafi p.289)

    In 25:74, the verse "And make us a leader (Imam) for the God-fearing" is replaced with "And make for us a leader (Imam) from among the God-fearing."

    Of even greater audacity is the addition of an entirely fabricated Surah to the Qur'an, called, "Surah al-Walayah" Translation of this false Surah is as follows:

    1) O believers, believe in the Prophet and the guardian (wali), whom We sent to guide you to the straight path.

    2) A Prophet and a Guardian, one from the other, and I am the Knower, the Wise.

    3) Verily those who fulfil their covenant to Allah will have gardens of pleasure.

    4) And for those who deny our signs when they are read to them, 5) Verily they will have a terrible place in Hell when they are called for on the Day of Judgement, 'Where are the wrong-doers who deniedthe messengers?'

    6) He only created them in truth and Allah will surely make them victorious until a time in the near future.

    7) Glorify the praises of your Lord and 'Ali is among the witnesses.

    But perhaps the greatest level of audacity is in the assertion that the Qur'an that we now possess is not the true Qur'an at all, but rather a fabrication:

    "Abu Baseer reported that he said to Imam Ja'far, "O Abu Abdullah(Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq) What is Mushaf Fatimah?" He replied "It is a Qur'an containing three times what is found in your copy of the Qur'an; yet by Allah, it does not contain even a single letter from your Qur'an." (Al-Kafi p.385)

    4) The Imami Shia consider the Imams to be utterly infallible, incapable of even the slightest error. Hence following them, according to Shia doctrine is obligatory on all true Muslims until the Day of Judgement. In fact, reverence for these Imams is so great amongst the Shia that the Imams are believed to be on a level above even the Prophets or the highest ranking angels; A level wherein even the particles of the universe are subservient to them. Ayatallah Khomeini asserts in his book, "Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah", "Certainly the Imam has a dignified station, a lofty rank, a creational caliphate, and a sovereignty and mastery over all the atoms of creation. It is definitely a basic belief in our school of thought, that our Imams occupy a station unattainable by either an angelk or a major Prophet. And, according to our narrations of hadith, before the creation of the universe, the greatest prophet SAWS, and the Imams - peace be upon them - were in the form of light which Allah made orbit His throne and gave rank and proximity known only to Him. As was narrated in the hadith on miraaj, Angel Jibreel said, 'If I were to have come an inch closer, I would have been burnt up.' - that is, by the intensity of the Imam's light. It has also been narrated by them, - may peace be on them - thet, 'We have certain states in relation to Allah not allowed to an angel or a great prophet.' A similar status is accorded to Fatimah az-Zahra - may peace be on her..." and in the same book, Ayatallah Khomeini also states regarding the Imams: "...because we cannot imagine the Imams being forgetful or negligent, and we believe that they perceive all things which could benefit muslims..." and "The Imam's teachings are like the Qur'an...they must be implemented and followed." This last statement finds it's support in a chapter of Al-Kafi entitled: "Surely people have no Truth except what came from the Imams and everything which did not come from them is false."

    The Imams are thought to have absolute and infinite knowledge, despite what Allah says in the Qur'an; "Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone). It is He who sends down rain, and it is he that knows what is in the wombs. Nor does anyone know what it is that he will earn tomorrow, nor does anyone know in what land he is to die. Verily with Allah is full knowledge and He is acquainted (with all things)"(31:34)

    This incredible belief that the Imams know the unseen can be amply attested by the following chapter headings in Al-Kafi fil-Usool.

    1) Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the Prophets. (Al-Kafi p.255)

    2) Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. (Al-Kafi p.258)

    3) Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. (Al-Kafi p.260)

    Clearly, the book Al-Kafi fil Usool contains such extreme statements of kufr (disbelief) and shirk (polytheism) that it alone is sufficient to push anyone who believes in it into the Hellfire for eternity. Yet Ayatallah Khomeini states that the sum total of his religion is contained in it, saying: "Do you think it is enough for our religious life to have it's laws summed up in Al-Kafi and then placed upon a shelf?" (Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah p.72)

    What Do Scholars of AhluSunnah in the Past and Present say about Shia (Rafidah) ? :

    1) Imam Ash-Shafi'i: On one occasion Imam Shafi'ee said concerning the Shia,"I have not seen among the heretics a people more famous for falsehood than the Raafidi* Shia." and on another occasion he said; "Narrate knowledge from everyone you meet except for the raafidi* Shia, because they invent ahadith and adopt them as part of their religion." (Minhaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah) *(Some shia at the time of the Alid Imam Zayd ibn 'Ali demanded that he make a declaration of innocence (tabarra) from whoever disagreed with 'Ali's right to be Imaam. When Zayd refused, they rejected him, and became known as the "raafida" or rejectors. Those who followed Imaam Zayd became known as Zaydis, and have very little difference from mainstream Islam. The Raafidi evolved into the the various Imaami shia sects, the largest of which is the Ithna 'Ashari.)

    2) Imam Abu Haneefah: It is reported that often Imam Abu Hanifah used to repeat the following statement about the raafidi Shia; "Whoever doubts whether they are disbelievers has himself committed disbelief."

    3) Imam Malik: Once when asked about the raafidi Shia, Imam Malik said; "Do not speak to them or narrate from them, for surely they are liars." During one of Imam Malik's classes, it was mentioned that the raafidi Shia curse the sahaba. Imam Malik recited the verse, "Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah and those with him are harsh with the disbelievers and gentle among themselves. So that the disbelievers may become enraged with them." (48:29) He then said, "Whoever becomes enraged when the Sah‚bah are mentioned is the one about whom the verse speaks." (Tafseer al-Qurtubi)

    4)Ibn al- MUBAARAK: was reported to have said "Religion is gained from Ahl al-Hadeeth, scholastic theology, and crafty exemptions from religious ordinances from Ahl ar-ray and lies from the Raafidite shi'ites.

    5) Abu Zur'ah ar-Razi: He said of the raafidi Shia doctrine of cursing the Sah‚bah, "If you see someone degrade any of the companions of the Prophet SAWS know that he is a disbeliever. Because the Prophet SAWS was real, what he brought was the truth and all of it was conveyed to us by way of the Sah‚bah. What those disbelievers wish to do is cast doubt on the reliability of our narrators in order to invalidate the Qur'an and Sunnah. Thus the disbelievers are the ones most deserving of defamation."

    6) Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi: During the period of Muslim rule in Spain, Imam Abu Muhammad ibn Hazm would often debate with the Catholic priests about their religious texts. He brought before them evidence of textual distortions in the Bible and the loss of the original manuscripts. When they replied by pointing out the Shia claims that the Qur'an has been distorted and altered, Ibn Hazm informed them that Shia claims were not valid evidence because the shia were not themselves muslims.

    7) Imam Al-Alusi: He declared the raafidi Shia disbelievers because of their defamation of the sahaba. His position was based on the rulings of Imam Malik and other scholars. In response to their claim to be followers of the Ahl al-Bayt (the Prophet'sSAWS family) Al-Alusi said, "No, they are really followers of the devils and the Ahl al-Bayt are innocent of them."

    8) Muhammad Rasheed Rida: This scholar was among those who worked sincerely for rapproachment between the shia and the sunni, and they in turn pretended moderation for his benefit. However, in the midst of his efforts, they caught him by surprise by presenting him with a number of their books which slander Islam. He then replied in a paper called As-Sunnah wa Ash-Shia in which he exposed their false doctrines and idolatrous practices.

    9) Dr. Hilali: After living close to the shia for some years, the famous Moroccan scholar, Dr. Hilali wrote a paper on them in which he declared them to be disbelievers.

    10) Abul-A'la Maududi: This great Pakistani scholar wrote an introduction to the book, "Ar-Riddah bain al-Ams wa al-Yaum" In it was written, regarding the Imami Ja'fari Shia, "despite their moderate views (relative to other shi'ia sects), they are swimming in disbelief like white bloodcells in blood or like fish in water."

    11) among the other contemporary scholars who have expressed similar views are: Sheikh Abdul 'Aziz ibn Baz, Sheikh Nassiruddin Al-Albaanee, Allama Ash-Shanqiti, Sheikh An-Nashashibi, Imam Ahmad Ameen, and Dr. Rashaad Salim.

    One other Imami Shia doctrine that must be related is the doctrine of Taqiyyah, or dissimulation, (i.e. calculated deception). In support of this doctrine of deception, the shia attribute the following to Abu Abdullah (Ja'far as-Sadiq):

    "Nine tenths of religion is taqiyyah(dissimulation), hence one who does not dissimulate has no religion." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.110)

    "He who conceals his religion has saved it, and he who makes it public has destroyed it."

    "A believer who does not dissimulate is like a body without a head." (Tafseer al-Askari)

    "Mix with them (i.e.non-shia) externally but oppose them internally." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.116)

    Concerning the verse, "Verily the most noble of you in Allah's sight is the most God-fearing(atqaakum)" , the shia attribute the following interpretation of "atqaakum": "That is, your deeds done by taqiyyah(dissimulation) (Al-I'tiqadat)

    It is interesting to contrast this doctrine of calculated deception with Allah's statement in the Holy Qur'an: "Surely those who hide from people the clear proofs and guidance, which we clarified in the Book (Qur'an), will be cursed by Allah and all those who curse." (2:159)

    And the statement of the Prophet (SAWS) who said: "Whoever is asked for knowledge and conceals it will have a bridle of fire around his neck on the Day of Judgement."
    (Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi)

    I should stress that not all who are called shi'ia hold to these deviant and idolatrous beliefs. As mentioned earlier, the Zaydi Shia hold no real differences of Aqeedah, but only the political position that the Caliph should be from the descendants of 'Ali.

    I am not writing this to insult anyone, nor do I wish to create Fitnah. However, when the issue arises, I am compelled to state what I know. Anything I have stated correctly is from Allah, and any mistakes are from myself or Shaytaan. I would like to respond to those who feel that speaking against deviant pseudo-Islaamic groups is a waste of time and energy is in fact total contradiction to Qur'‚n and Sunnah. In Soorah Aal'imraan 3:110 Allah says "you are the best nation raised up among mankind (because) you command the good and prohibit the evil" Commanding the good is not sufficient in itself to earn us the title "best of the nations" it must be complemented by the prohibitions of evil {an Nahi ĎAn Al-Munkar }: Not to mention the classical Ahaadeeth in which the prophet (saws) said "who ever sees evil should stop it with his hands, but if he is unable he should speak against it ......"{Narrated by Abu sa'eed al-khudree and If we review the lives of the Sah‚bah and the early scholars, we find them not only teaching Islaam, But also condemning whatever innovations {Bid'ah} or Deviations occurred around them, In every era there arose ideas which challenged the pure concept of Islaam, and were it not for scholars who arose to oppose them, the deviant ideas would have over whelmed the masses, "When some people mentioned to
    IMAAM AHMED IBN HAMBAL {rahim'ullah} that they felt uneasy about critising people he replied," If I were to remain silent, how would the ignorant masses know truth from falsehood?" Those who introduce heretical writings and deviant religious rites contrary to Qur'‚n and Sunnah have to be exposed and the Muslim nation warned against them according to the unanimous agreement of Muslim scholars Infact,
    IMAAM AHMED IBN HAMBAL, {rahim'ullah} was asked if one who fasted, prayed and secluded himself in the masjid was dearer to him than one who spoke out against people involved in Deviations, he replied, "When he fasts, Prays and secludes himself, he does so for himself alone, but if he speaks out against the Deviations, he does so for Muslims in general which is more Noble, Hence it is clear that openly opposing innovation {Bid'ah} and Deviations is of general benefit to Muslims in the practice of their religion and comes under the heading of "Jihaad fee sabeelil-laah" {struggle in Allah's path} Purification of Allah's religion and the repulsion of attacks against it is a general obligation {Fard kifaayah} on Muslims by unanimous agreement. For if Allah did not raise up some people to oppose the corruption preached by heretics, the religion would surely become distorted and deviant, The corruption of the Divinely revealed religion is far more terrible than the corruption resulting from the military conquest of the Non-Muslims, For when Non-Muslims over powers Muslims they are not able to corrupt the hearts of Muslims, or their religion except after some time , whereas, heretics corrupt the hearts from the very outset" ,
    Ibn Taahir al-Maqdisi al-Haafidh {rahim'ullah} said, "I heard the Imaam, Abu Ismaa'eel 'Abdullaah bin Muhammad al-Ansaari {rahim'ullah} saying, whilst in Haraah: 'The sword was put to my neck five times [and each time] it was not said to me, 'Leave your madhhab' but it was said to me, 'Remain silent about those who are in opposition to you'. So I would say, 'I will not remain silent'." [Aadaab us-Sharee'ah (1/207) of Ibn Muflih al-Maqdisi al-Hanbali].
    Al-Humaidee, the Shaikh of al-Bukhaaree {rahim'ullah} said, "By Allaah, that I war against those who reject the Ahaadeeth of the Messenger (sallallaahu alaihi wasallam) is more beloved to me than that I should war against the same number of Non-Muslims." [Al-Harawi in Dhamm ul-Kalaam].
    Ibn al-Qayyim {rahim'ullah} said, "The Jihaad with decisive proofs [from the Book and the Sunnah] and the tongue takes precedence over the Jihaad with the sword and the teeth." [Al-Jawaab us-Saheeh of Ibn Taymiyyah (1/237)].
    Nasr bin Zakariyaa {rahim'ullah} said, I heard Muhammad bin Yahyaa adh-Dhuhlee saying, I heard Yahyaa bin Yahyaa saying, "Defence of the Sunnah is more superior than Jihaad in the path of Allaah." So I said, "A man spends his wealth, tires his body and strives (in Jihaad), so is this one (still) better than him? He said, "Yes, by many times!" [Dhammu ul-Kalaam of al-Harawi]. We ask Allah's help to fill us with the right knowledge and Guide us and Grant the Ummah to loving the truth and its people. {AAMEEN}


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    Default Re: Sunni-Shia Debates in English

    dear Brothers and sisters
    I am not very relegious i am more political person. Who likes to go through history and find out who is right and who is wrong, and why sunni and shia always having debates. Trying to prove that one is right and the other one is wrong. I ask all of you Allah says that don't criticise unbelivers god, incase he criticise your true allah. If you guys can not learn from the unbelivers living in unbelivers country. I think you guys from both sides need to look in to your selves are you right as human. If you can fulfill your duty as human I think you will be forgiven by Allah sb does not matter you are sunni or shia. Every body call them that they are right and others are wrong. If all of you guys are right in your own ways why unbelivers are over you guys. Why not one muslim hiver then 10 noonmuslim as quran says. According to quran noon of you guys are muslims as Allah SB describe a muslim.


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