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Thread: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

  1. #1
    Hanbalia
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    Default Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    as salamu aleykum wa rahamtullahi wa barakjatuh,

    i realisized that most hanafi imaams does actually start the prayer when actually the muaddhin has not finished the iqama and thus imaam omits to attend to the congration that they must complete and straighten the rows.

    So i read elswhere on the net;


    The entering of the Imaam into the opening takbeer for prayer when the mu'ahddhin says 'The Prayer is about to start.' (qad qaamati-salaah) is an innovation in the religion (bid'ah) due to its contradicting the authentic Sunnah, as these Ahadeeth prove - especially the first one. The Ahadeeth show us that after the Iqaamah has been called there is a duty upon the Imaam which he must fulfill, and that is commanding the people to straighten the rows, reminding them of that, for he is responsible for them and will be asked.

    The ahadiths are;

    The call for commencing of salaah was made, the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam turned to us and said; "Straighten your rows and come close together, for indeed I see you behind my back" (Bukhari and others)

    Bukhari adds in one narration of this Hadith: "(He turned to us and said) before pronouncing the opening takbeer..."

    "The Messenger of Allaah turned to us and said; "Straighten your rows (he said it three times), by Allaah either you straighten your rows or Allaah will cause conflict between your hearts." (Abu Dawud and others)


    I tried to find some evidance in contra but could not find, anybody who can clear up the matter?

    Also is it the fatwa position of the ahnaf to begin salah at qad qamat us salah?

    jazaqallah


  2. #2
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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Assalamu alaikum

    Hanafi imam in my place dont start at Qad qamatus solah. They do check the saff here


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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanbalia View Post
    i realisized that most hanafi imaams does actually start the prayer when actually the muaddhin has not finished the iqama and thus imaam omits to attend to the congration that they must complete and straighten the rows.


    Please show how you have come to the realisation that this is done by "most hanafi imams"?

    I have performed salah behind hundreds of Hanafi Imams in South Africa, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Syria, Turkey etc yet I only recall one Imam in Baluchistan practising upon this.
    Sahabah رضي الله عنهم would cling fast to the Sunnah, on account of it being Sunnah, while we discard the Sunnah, on account of it being (just) Sunnah!

    Formerly "soofi_saheb"


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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Salaam Mufti saheb, this is not related to this thread but i posted on the issue of waqf al-nuqud but you may not have seen it there. I wanted to ask you can you scan the booklet of Imam Birgivi and send it to me please at [clip]. Can I also ask where you came across the other manuscripts on this issue, i am currently investigating the cash waqf and could benefit from these texts. Thanks

    And as for this thread, the original poster is called hanbalia whereas he has designated himself as a hanafi. In the world of pseudo-scholarship and salafi imperatives at conforming to the Qur'an and Bukhari, I dont think scholars should waste their time trying to justify even marginal opinions within any given school, to people who dont understand the notion of Sunna, as understand by the early imams.
    Even if some Hanafis did act upon this opinion, and it contradicts the hadith in Bukhari, so what. The notion that the Hadiths in Bukhari have a unique probative station in the hierarchy of evidences was advanced by Ibn Salah, and is itself not agreed upon, rather rejected. I would mention what Imam Kawthari said about this but knowledge has a sanctity and his words would only have meaning to people of knowledge.
    Last edited by Abu Shayba; 25-04-2008 at 08:43 AM.


  5. #5
    Hanbalia
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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    well where i am living the imaams does so, when i asked for evidance they say it is so stated in the fiqh books that it is recommended to start at qad qamaat is salah. hence i would like to know the evidance for this


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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanbalia View Post
    well where i am living the imaams does so, when i asked for evidance they say it is so stated in the fiqh books that it is recommended to start at qad qamaat is salah. hence i would like to know the evidance for this
    As Salaamu Alaikum

    This is the first iv heard of this, can you please get the reference.

    Jazakallah Khaira


  7. #7
    Hanbalia
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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeepTheGazeDown View Post
    As Salaamu Alaikum

    This is the first iv heard of this, can you please get the reference.

    Jazakallah Khaira
    I have seen it in Nurul Izah;

    According to Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Muhammad the imam should pronounce the takbir at Qad qamaat us salah.

    According to Imam Abu Yusuf it should be on completing Iqamah.

    and Moatta Imam Muhammad it stated page 80;

    Muhammad said:

    ''When the caller to prayer [Mu'adhdhin] has said Hayya 'ala'l-falah the people ought to stand to pray, form rows, straighten the rows and place the shouders together. Then when the mu'adhdhin has said Qad qamati's-salah, the imam should say Allahu akbar. That is the verdict of Abu Hanifa, may Allah have mercy on him.''


    Imam Muhammad cited this statement after these hadith which he narrated from Imam Malik;

    97. Malik informed us: ''Nafi informed us from Ibn Umar, that Umar ibn Khattab would direct some men to make the rows straight, and only when they came to him and told him that they were straight would he say Allahu akbar.''

    98. Malik informed us: ''Abu Suhayl ibn Malik and Abu'n Nadr, the mawla of Umar ibn Ubaydullah, informed us from Malik ibn Abi Amir al Ansari, that Uthman ibn Affan would say in his khutbah, when the iqamah for the prayer had been called, 'So level the rows, and place your shoulders together, for the levelling of the rows is essantial to the perfection of prayer.' Then he would not say Allahu akbar until certain men, to whom he had entrusted the straightening of the rows, came to him and told him they were straight, then only he would say Allahu akbar.''

    It seems the statement that Imam Muhammad has made, is in contradiction to these 2 ahadith...Allahuahlam

    The problem is if the imaam pronounces the takbir before the iqama is finished he don't say to the jamaat anything, we have seen in the hadith of Bukhari tht the Prophet (saw) did so after the iqama was called before he prounounced the takbir;

    Volume 1, Book 11, Number 687:
    Narrated Anas bin Malik:

    Once the Iqama was pronounced and Allah's Apostle faced us and said, "Straighten your rows and stand closer together, for I see you from behind my back.'

    Volume 1, Book 11, Number 612:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Allah's Apostle went out (of the mosque) when the Iqama had been pronounced and the rows straightened. The Prophet stood at his Musalla (praying place) and we waited for the Prophet to begin the prayer with Takbir. He left and asked us to remain in our places. We kept on standing till the Prophet returned and the water was trickling from his head for he had taken a bath (of Janaba).


    Volume 1, Book 11, Number 613:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    Once iqama was pronounced and the people had straightened the rows, Allah's Apostle went forward (to lead the prayer) but he was Junub, so he said, "Remain in your places." And he went out, took a bath and returned with water trickling from his head. Then he led the prayer.


    I think we should adopt the view of Abu Yusuf. Even the view of Imam Muhammad and Imam Abu Hanifa is strange, since Abu Hanifa would always read both Azaan and Iqama by himself in his masjid i heard once.

    An indepth analyse on this matter should be welcome Allahuahlam


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    Senior Member mujahid7ia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    This ruling is indeed in Nur al-Idah. Mufti Abdur-Rahman ibn Yusuf said that this would really only apply to a very well-organized jama'ah, because which masjid in our day could really have everyone lined up perfectly by the iqamah?


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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    "I think we should adopt the view of Abu Yusuf. Even the view of Imam Muhammad and Imam Abu Hanifa is strange, since Abu Hanifa would always read both Azaan and Iqama by himself in his masjid i heard once."
    I think you should become a salafi, what kind of grotesque eclecticism is this. And to say that a view of these imams is strange is shockingly arrogant.


  10. #10
    Hanbalia
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    Default Re: Imam starting the prayer when Muaddhin says Qad Qamat us Salah a Bidah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Shayba View Post
    I think you should become a salafi, what kind of grotesque eclecticism is this. And to say that a view of these imams is strange is shockingly arrogant.


    Just that i follow the madhab's opinion doenst mean i have to become salafi...your saying shows your blind partianship, and yes it''s strange view for there is no proof for it..and the act of Rasulullah is clear what he did.

    And the view is strange from other angle as Imam Abu Hanifa is of view that the jamaat must make the takbir at the same time as the imam, so how would the Muaddhin make the takbir within the same time?

    Moreover we are instructed to say Akamahallahu wa adamaha when the Muadhhin says Qad qamat is salah in Iqamah, and according to a other narration in Ibn Sunni (no: 103) related by Abu Hurayrah we have to read ;

    Allahumma rabba hadhihi-d-da‘awati-t-tammati wa-s-Salati-l-qa’imati, salli alaM uhammadin wa'atihi sulahu yawmal qiyamah

    You say you are Hanafi but you dont follow the Hanafi rulings, like according to Abu Hanifa its makruh to make a row and stand between pillars or in a row where is a minbar, yet you cant see any Hanafi acting to this ruling while its Makruh Tahrimi to brake up the saff because of pillars or anything else.

    So if investigating ones madhabs rulings is becoming a Salafi, yeah ok the i will become a Salafi...your happy now?


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