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Thread: Turkish schools in Pakistan

  1. #1
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    Default Turkish schools in Pakistan

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/04/wo...30b&ei=5087%0A

    Interesting article.

    I like the idea of having a secular school system that is more in line with Pakistan's identity as a Muslim country, which is what these schools do.

    The NYTimes' inexplicable decision to compare them to madrassahs or religious schools is pointless. The Turkish schools teach secular subjects not religious ones, but try to retain some sense of an Islamic culture, which I can tell you as someone living in Karachi, has often completely disappeared in some schools. Religion enters and leaves school with religious students or teachers but isn't a part of the school itself.

    I don't have a problem with Turks, even in light of the insane changes the Turkish government is forcing on people. The religious ones are cool by me. These schools seem harmless, so long as they continue to stick by basic Sunni/Hanafi aqidah... (rather than that whack new Islam the Turkish government is trying to invent by rewriting Hadith and all sorts of things).

    I also don't have a problem with this idea of the old 'Ottoman Empire' reasserting itself. I actually find it hilarious and refreshing amidst Turkey's anti-Islam tilt in recent decades. It's especially funny when the secular Turks "suspect" the religious ones. Suspect them of what? Wanting to return to the status of a superpower within the Islamic world? It's like they assume they'll automatically be successful at such an endeavour IF they chose to try. Sorry guys, the torch of Islam seems to have been passed on.

    I DO have a problem with stuff like this:

    Mr. Aail said: “Doctors and lawyers have to show their degrees. But when it comes to mullahs, no one asks them for their qualifications. They don’t have knowledge, but they are influential.”
    I'd like to tell this guy that first off, that's a smart thing to say. It's true. Secondly, it's also an idiotic thing to say in PAKISTAN of all places where thousands upon thousands of people are enrolled in degree programs at Islamic schools/madrassahs. You ignore all the people with credentials then complain that they don't exist? Pakistanis need help.

    What will be interesting is how will graduates of these schools view the other religious Pakistanis from poorer backgrounds or those without secular educations and only religious credentials? And how will they view other secular Pakistanis (who often tend to be relatively anti-Islamic)?

    There's too few of these institutions to matter anyhow.


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    I still maintain the only hope for Pakistan is for the government to start giving free scholarships/tuition-relief for the secular government schools to graduates and degree-holders from madrassahs.

    I also say there should be some benefits in military programs too but that would alarm the West probably.

    Everything from A/O-levels to undergraduate and graduate programs.

    These people will stick around, might as well give them the tools to build Pakistan into an enlightened Muslim country. The 'normal' (by outside standards) Pakistanis will just leave and contribute to the brain drain. Or wind up hoarding as much wealth for themselves as they can (as secularists tend to do).


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    These schools will sap students away from the secular state schools rather than the madrassas. So thats actually an improvement. I'd rather see children sent to a these schools than conplete secular schools.


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    what are you kidding me? YOu don't see the reason behind this and who this is funded by? Are you not familiar with the Turkish brand of Islam? All they are going to teach is that HIjab optional, arabic is optional, and be "moderate" and arabic is not necessary in Islam...Guyz Turkey and Islam are two words that don't go togather...and When the NY Times says "moderate" islam, that means do whatever the heck you want...being politically correct comes before the sunnah of prophet muhammed...


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    Do you know anything about them?


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by usman911 View Post
    what are you kidding me? YOu don't see the reason behind this and who this is funded by? Are you not familiar with the Turkish brand of Islam? All they are going to teach is that HIjab optional, arabic is optional, and be "moderate" and arabic is not necessary in Islam...Guyz Turkey and Islam are two words that don't go togather...and When the NY Times says "moderate" islam, that means do whatever the heck you want...being politically correct comes before the sunnah of prophet muhammed...
    I'm quite familiar with Muslim Turks. Being that my masjid in NY where I grew up was Turkish and I would go there to read Qur'an by the Imam.

    They were exactly like the Pakistanis. The women all wore hijab in the masjid. Probably more women wore the hijab and observed segregation of the sexes than at any of the major Pakistani masjids.

    I've noticed that 'Westernized' Turkish immigrants hold onto their religion better than 'Westernized' Pakistani immigrants (their kids are a different story, growing up in the West without a strong parental influence in the area of religion means both are likely to lose their religion).

    The vast majority of Turks ARE somewhat religious. They say this effort (the schools in Pakistan) is being funded privately by Turkish businesses who would represent that, not the government (which is actually Islamic but the opposition and the military are crazy secularists).

    And as we just said, these are an alternative to Pakistani schools... which if you didn't realize, aren't religious whatsoever and are just as often influenced by Ahmadi, Ismaili, Shi'a institutions than they are by Sunnis. Not to mention Jamaat-e-Islami holds sway usually there amongst Sunnis and the religious groups turn into gangs fighting each other (in addition to all the political party gang activities). These guys don't preach religion but encourage a religious atmosphere... meaning everyone does their namazes and behaves nicely, and the former being in line with Sunni/Hanafi standards.

    They prescribe a strong Western curriculum, with courses, taught in English, from math and science to English literature and Shakespeare. They do not teach religion beyond the one class in Islamic studies that is required by the state. Unlike British-style private schools, however, they encourage Islam in their dormitories, where teachers set examples in lifestyle and prayer.

    “Whatever the West has of science, let our kids have it,” said Erkam Aytav, a Turk who works in the new schools. “But let our kids have their religion as well.”

    That approach appeals to parents in Pakistan, who want their children to be capable of competing with the West without losing their identities to it. Allahdad Niazi, a retired Urdu professor in Quetta, a frontier town near the Afghan border, took his son out of an elite military school, because it was too authoritarian and did not sufficiently encourage Islam, and put him in the Turkish school, called PakTurk.
    It's a secular school with a Western curriculum, of course Arabic isn't going to be used there.

    I still think it's not a bad idea for the middle and upper-class Pakistanis. They're the ones most worried about their kids learning crazy ideas about Islam. What those kids really need are correct answers to all their questions. Whether they decide to become religious or not is a seperate story, but when kids see stuff in the news and ask questions about what is or isn't in Islam, their religious answers at least should be in line with proper 'aqidah (questions such as about the nature of Allah, Iman, the Prophet (saw), the Sahaba (ra), etc.)

    However, I do foresee problems if they try to brand madrassahs or Deobandis as extremist or whatever and teach the kids that. Though being Pakistani, the kids will know better just from personal experience.

    Poor Pakistanis probably won't be able to afford this, and the ones that can afford school will probably be at madrassahs then government schools, and then they wouldn't need to worry so much about being influenced by non-Islamic stuff at the latter because they've already got a grasp on their religion.


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    This is ridiculous!!!

    Musharraf said along time ago that his Role model was the accursed 'Ataturk'. Seems like Pakistan is going in that direction.



    Check out this blog:

    http://dailyreminders.wordpress.com/


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    I dont think it will. The people won't allow it and there isnt realy enough support behind him.

    But that is interesting to hear that he admired the kafir attaturk


  9. #9
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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    The thing is, 'Ataturkism', basically means a seperation of 'Church and State'...

    So even though he completely shreded Islam as a political and social order, which is like half the Islamic way of life, Turkish Islam wasn't really corrupted in terms of 'Aqidah until much recently (under influence by Western and modernizing influences).

    And when they ARE corrupted, it's in that typical Western philosophical way... which is actually quite easy to counter because Western philosophy deals in logic and holds itself accountable to it.

    Compare that to other countries, specifically Pakistan. It might be an Islamic Republic with 'Shariah' as the law of the land but the vast majority of the people have 'aqidah which take them out of at least the fold of the four Sunni madhabs. Yet up until recently at least (although I still think it is so), the vast majority of Turks were still somewhat practicing Muslims with Sunni 'aqidah.

    Which is more dangerous? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm actually wondering which people think would be more dangerous and why. Not taking into account that recently the Sunni 'aqidah of Turkish Muslims has also been under assault whereas these competing influences over Pakistani Muslims have existed for centuries.


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    Default Re: Turkish schools in Pakistan

    Quote Originally Posted by dailyreminders View Post
    This is ridiculous!!!

    Musharraf said along time ago that his Role model was the accursed 'Ataturk'. Seems like Pakistan is going in that direction.



    Check out this blog:

    http://dailyreminders.wordpress.com/
    Look, can we stop the knee-jerk reaction whenever we see the word "Turkish"? This is a positive development, and others in this thread have made it clear why. I think some people are still living in the 1920s with Ataturk at the helm. Good news: Islam survived in Turkey. Ever heard of Said Nursi? (probably not since most Muslims these days are locked into their ethnic boxes). Islam is becoming stronger in Turkey. Turks re-asserting their Ottoman legacy? Fantastic. That's a good thing. I'd rather they led the Muslim world than abandoned it to become Western. Erdogan for Khalif. And this is coming from an arab : )

    Disclaimer: i'm 1/8th turkish, but that has nothing to do with it.


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