A Non-Muslim asked: How is this fair?

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum,

A Buddhist asked a question along the certain lines: How can we (the people who believe in only one life) consider it fair that there are two people both of whom are 17 years old, both of them gang members.

One of them is shot at the age of 17, while the other survives and at the end of his life when he is 80, he repents and enters the correct faith (he was talking to a Christian, so he put his analogy in those terms, but it woudl be the same for Islam at least in terms of saying the Shahadah).

So this Buddhist said that no, both of them have to make up for the bad influence they made on other people's lifes in their future lives until all of the abd "Karma" or influence is erased.

Any thought on how to refute this allegation?

[Adeel bin Minhaj]

All Muslims must go through the reckoning, they will face the Azaab of the Grave for their sins, and may face time in Hell for their sins as well, before they reach Heaven.

There is story which talks about a person whom wished to dream of Hadhrat Umar and after many years he finally did. Hadhrat Umar stated that after 10 years he finally now has seen peace (meaning after 10 years of some type of azaab). I heard this in a lecture by Shaykh Sulaiman Moola.

Forgive me if I have erred in conveying the message properly, but I hope it serves the purpose of my reply.

[DefendingIslam]

^

Good reply, but I think what this non-Muslim was refering to was that in his view as a Buddhist it is "unfair" for God to release someone from all punishments if at the end of his life he has uttered words of salvation, as opposed to the one who did not have this chance because of dying young.

In this Buddhist's view, the sins cannot be cleansed away simply by believing in the truth at the end of one's life.

I think myself perhaps there is a need to explain to all those who bring up such an excuse about the concept and importance of faith in Islam, and also how the opposite situation may happen (A pious man for many decades at the end of his life says something that takes him out of the fold of Islam, and then he dies).

But this is my analysis, and I hope it can be expanded upon by other members.

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

These are gray areas. Some say nobody dies before Allah gives that person a chance to accept Islam, and also some say that if someone does die before getting a legitimate shot at Islam, then Allah takes that into account during their judgement (the degree to which they are held responsible varies even amongst Ashari and Maturidi I believe... Maturidis believe a person's responsibility includes independently arriving at a belief in one Creator at least).

However if your question is about sins being forgiven upon accepting Islam, then obviously all sins are forgiven except perhaps the ones that Allah says He will refer to those who were wronged (if you wrong someone else, and they don't forgive you, they will get a chance to make their case against you on the Day of Judgement). And I believe that is true for Muslim and non-Muslim alike.

But I believe we do know that those who stay in Hell forever will be those who would never have accepted Islam even if they had stayed on earth forever.

[Salah]

Salam,

I think the question he asked is a good one tbh and I'm curious what Islam's theological answer is actually.

[DefendingIslam]

Salam,

I think the question he asked is a good one tbh and I'm curious what Islam's theological answer is actually.

What I know from my limited knowledge is that Islam DOES cleanse all sins at the moment one accepts Allah as the Only God and Muhammad as His Messenger.

In the hypothetical scenario presented by the non-Muslim, there were two 17 year old gang members, and one of them was shot and killed at the age of seventeen, while the other one continued to live the life of a gangster until he repented at the age of 80 and followed the true religion ( the Buddhist was arguing with a Christian, so he put forth the example of this gangster becoming a Christian).

With respect to Islam, I think both the 17-year old boys would be accountable for their actions at the point of time discussed in this scenario. However, the following points must be considered:

1. We do not know for sure the religion of this 17 year old boy. Perhaps he was a Muslim involved in certain prohibited activities, but he was still a Muslim. In that case, an evil Muslim would eventually go to Jannah, even though how long and whether he will be sent to Hellfire is up to Allah.

2. In the case of the 17 year old boy, if he is not a Muslim, we do not know whether the Hujjah had been made clear to him or not. If not, he will be judged differently than if it had been made clear to him.

3. With respect to the 80 year old man and his life of sin, we Muslims do not believe in Karma or the like. Allah says that He will forgive all sins once the non-Muslim enters Islam, whether it is at the age of 17 or 80 or whatever other age.

4. If that man who enters Islam at the age of 80 then proceeds to deny any of the basic and unquestionable tenets of Islam, then he will also die a non-Muslim unless he repents once more and enters ISlam again.

5. From my understanding, this idea of Karma as presented by this non-Muslim will lead to people living very corrupt lives, as they can always think of "deferring" the payment of their sins to the next life, or 10 or 100 lives after that.

These are some of the points I have thought about, and others may wish to expand upon them if possible.

[Yahya]

This answer probably wouldn't satisfy him, but I would respond with the humble truth.... "It isn't about US you self-centered %$&#!!!"

This universe is the creation of Allah. He created it according to His Will. And everything that happens, happens according to His Will.

This life is not about us, it is about God. He gets what He wants. And that is totally fair because He is the Creator of all of this. We wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Him.


The wonderful truth is that we are pawns. We are not really important at all. And if we are to have any meaning or value or status, it must come through service to the One who really matters.

That 80 year old who took the shahadah on his deathbed, actually served His Lord and Master in the most important way. Yes, it's fair that he goes to Paradise. That 18 year old who died without saying the shahadah did not adequately serve His Master, and he deserves his punishment.

The fault in the Buddhist's thinking is that he very arrogantly made MAN the center of everything. Wrongdoing towards man pales in comparison to wrongdoing towards God.

[love4all]

What I know from my limited knowledge is that Islam DOES cleanse all sins at the moment one accepts Allah as the Only God and Muhammad as His Messenger.

In the hypothetical scenario presented by the non-Muslim, there were two 17 year old gang members, and one of them was shot and killed at the age of seventeen, while the other one continued to live the life of a gangster until he repented at the age of 80 and followed the true religion ( the Buddhist was arguing with a Christian, so he put forth the example of this gangster becoming a Christian).

With respect to Islam, I think both the 17-year old boys would be accountable for their actions at the point of time discussed in this scenario. However, the following points must be considered:

1. We do not know for sure the religion of this 17 year old boy. Perhaps he was a Muslim involved in certain prohibited activities, but he was still a Muslim. In that case, an evil Muslim would eventually go to Jannah, even though how long and whether he will be sent to Hellfire is up to Allah.

2. In the case of the 17 year old boy, if he is not a Muslim, we do not know whether the Hujjah had been made clear to him or not. If not, he will be judged differently than if it had been made clear to him.

3. With respect to the 80 year old man and his life of sin, we Muslims do not believe in Karma or the like. Allah says that He will forgive all sins once the non-Muslim enters Islam, whether it is at the age of 17 or 80 or whatever other age.

4. If that man who enters Islam at the age of 80 then proceeds to deny any of the basic and unquestionable tenets of Islam, then he will also die a non-Muslim unless he repents once more and enters ISlam again.

5. From my understanding, this idea of Karma as presented by this non-Muslim will lead to people living very corrupt lives, as they can always think of "deferring" the payment of their sins to the next life, or 10 or 100 lives after that.

These are some of the points I have thought about, and others may wish to expand upon them if possible.

salams

interesting, this is almost exactly the question posed by Imam al-Ash'ari to his Mu'tazili teacher al-Jubba'i. It is regarding the Mu'tazili heresy that Allah is obligated to do what is best for people (wujub al-salah wa'l aslah). He pointed out the logical inconsistency of this belief exactly as the Buddhist has done:

There are three people, one who dies in childhood, one who grows up and believes, and the last grows up and disbelieves. On Judgment Day, the disbeliever will say to Allah, 'why didn't you cause me to die as a child, for that would have been best for me?' But the child could say to Allah, 'why didn't you cause me to grow up and believe, for that would have been best for me?'

His teacher was unable to justify the doctrine, and al-Ash'ari repented from the Mu'tazili sect and pursued the study of hadith.

There is a great deal written on this in classical Islamic theology. The rather stark upshot is: Allah does as He pleases, and is beyond being questioned about the wisdom of His decree. 'He will not be questioned - rather, it is they who will be questioned about what they used to do.'

To mitigate that somewhat:

1. All that happens is through Allah's power, which is based on His will.
2. Allah will is a specification of His infinite knowledge
3. Allah's knowledge extends not only to everything that happens, but everything that could have happened as well. Ponder on this...
4. Thus, based on His knowledge of the outcome of every imaginable possibility and outcome, Allah has pre-eternally selected this specific outcome to occur.
5. This does not obviate the fact that, in the context of time and space, you and I - who do not know our destiny - act on the basis of our own free will and choice. Allah basically knows exactly what will would choose in any given situation and wills this to be. Thus Allah wills what He knows we would do.
6. This is how senior ulama of discernment and insight, such as Shaykh Adib Kallas of Damascus, explain the link between fate and freewill.
7. Always remember that we believe in a God who is not merely absolutely just, but infinitely wise and infinitely merciful.

The problem with Buddhism and other karmic religions is that there is no concept of Divine mercy. Karma is a computer program that must be completed. As Shaykh Gibril said, is it better to believe that a single moment of submission to the Perfect Being will guaruntee you an eternity of bliss, or that you are doomed to the near-hell of virtually eternal death and rebirth unless you attain a superhuman degree of enlightenment?

was salam

PS: this was explained at www.pathtosalvation.co.uk

[GenN]

Assalamu alaykum,

The first and foremost thing that needs to be remembered is that Allah is the the Merciful, the Just. He does not wrong anyone.

The second thing that needs to be remembered is that the minds of man, which means their ability t think, to understand and comprehend is limited.

The thrid thing that needs to be remebered is that the ability to take in information is limited by and large to the 5 senses, and the amount of information intake is also limited.

So with these 3 things in mind, ask the Buddhist monk:

1. Does he know how hard the heart of the 17 year old is and how hard the heart of the 80 year old is? Allah knows but we do not. Maybe the heart of the 17 was soft enough so when the mesage of Islam was portrayed to him, if he was to accept it he would have accepted it, but the heart of the 80 year old man did not reach the same level of softness of heart until the age of 80, and so the 80 year old man needed the extra time given.

2. Does he know what the intellectual level of the 17 year old was. Maybe he was Intellectually capable enough by the age of 17 so that when the message of Islam reached him, if he was going to accept it he would have accepted it, but the 80 year old may not have had the similar sort of intellectual level unitl a later age and so needed the extra time.

3. Does he know every single influence on the life of the 17 year old and every single influence on the life of the 80 year old. Influence develops biasties so maybe the 17 year old did not have any biasties agains the message of Islam when it reached him, so that if he was going to accept it, he would have accepted it, but maybe the 80 year old had a lot of misinformation given to him and so had developed many biasties so he needed the exra time to rid of his biasties to give him a chance of accepting Islam.

The above are just 3 factors. Think about it and I am sure you will find more. So, Remember we as a creation, as Humans are limited. Allah Knows what is onevery mind and every heart and nothing escapes him, he is the Knower, the Seer, he is the eternal and so he would know best when to take the life of a person, and whether they deserve Hell or heaven. Indeed he knows best about everything and Indeed he is the merciful, the Just.

The above are just possibilites of "why" some die young and some die old. It is just to show who low our understanding about anything relly is. The above reasons may in reality have nohting at all to do with why Allah in his wisdom, justice and mercy does what he does.

May Allah forgive me if Ihave said anything wrong and Allah knows best.

[hope_n_fear]

If someone is a gangster, doesn't that mean he is involved in violating others rights?
So pronouncing the shahaadah doesn't necessarily make up for all the past sins, right? Dont you still have to look for the people you oppressed and seek forgiveness from them?