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Thread: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchaicReality View Post
    Glory and Might truly do belong to Allah Ta'Ala!! But this man, like the rafidah,qadianis,salafis,etc... are an infestation. You cannot deny the fact that hundreds of thousands of persons from all walks of life havent been influenced by him. By using the turn "take Him Out" doesnt necessarily mean hurt or kill. Silencing him through a gag order or community awareness to put a stop to such an evil person
    In all honesty, he's not really that influencial amongst Muslims. I think ever since Hamza came on the scene, things have changed alot, he's done pretty well, as there havn't been too many people from the Islamic perspective to place arguements against Neo Atheist like Dawkins.. Atheists on the contrary have had a huge obsession with him.
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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Perseveranze View Post
    In all honesty, he's not really that influencial amongst Muslims. I think ever since Hamza came on the scene, things have changed alot, he's done pretty well, as there havn't been too many people from the Islamic perspective to place arguements against Neo Atheist like Dawkins.. Atheists on the contrary have had a huge obsession with him.
    Does anyone know if Hamza Tzortzis has actually studied fiqh or any other field of Islam?
    Though he is a great speaker, and an excellent debater and defender of Islam, I'd like to know if he has a scholarly status or position among the 'ulema.


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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by a.s. View Post
    Does anyone know if Hamza Tzortzis has actually studied fiqh or any other field of Islam?
    Though he is a great speaker, and an excellent debater and defender of Islam, I'd like to know if he has a scholarly status or position among the 'ulema.


    No, he is not a scholar and does not pretend to be one. He just debates philosophy and logic, and does research for iERA as well as giving talks on his topics of research. In terms of fiqh, he asks the scholars (he doesn't lecture on fiqh or aqeedah or anything)

    He's a great brother,

    If people praise you, it's because they don't really know who you are- Imam Suhaib Webb

    Secularism: the greatest danger facing Islam- by Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMPmMUibmYY

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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by ahmad12 View Post


    He's a great brother,

    Yes, he's done a lot for Islam.


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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul1234 View Post
    lol he's a burnt out firework brother, he's been repeating the same things for years

    and Abid 786 isn't a Muslim he's an non-Muslim who likes talking with Muslims for his own reasons
    My best is when he was talking to Yusuf Khattab - the guy just went into internal self-talk mode!

    Quote Originally Posted by NNoor View Post
    Eh...even other atheists acknowledge that Dawkins is an embarrassment to them. He's too cowardly to go up against a real philosopher like WL Craig. In academic circles, nobody gives him the time of day. Unfortunately, he is still popular with the lay atheists who continue to buy his drivel and enrich him in the process.
    Love this one.


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    Default Re: Richard Dawkins, the God delusion

    From other single post threads:
    Quote Originally Posted by tazkiyyah View Post
    The Dawkins Confusion
    Naturalism ad absurdum.
    Now despite the fact that this book is mainly philosophy, Dawkins is not a philosopher (he's a biologist). Even taking this into account, however, much of the philosophy he purveys is at best jejune. You might say that some of his forays into philosophy are at best sophomoric, but that would be unfair to sophomores; the fact is (grade inflation aside), many of his arguments would receive a failing grade in a sophomore philosophy class. This, combined with the arrogant, smarter-than-thou tone of the book, can be annoy.

    lets analyse one ...
    how would that show that the universe is without design? How does the main argument go from there? His detailed arguments are all for the conclusion that it is biologically possible that these various organs and systems should have come to be by unguided Darwinian mechanisms (and some of what he says here is of considerable interest). What is truly remarkable, however, is the form of what seems to be the main argument. The premise he argues for is something like this:

    1. We know of no irrefutable objections to its being biologically possible that all of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes;
    and Dawkins supports that premise by trying to refute objections to its being biologically possible that life has come to be that way. His conclusion, however, is
    2. All of life has come to be by way of unguided Darwinian processes.
    It's worth meditating, if only for a moment, on the striking distance, here, between premise and conclusion. The premise tells us, substantially, that there are no irrefutable objections to its being possible that unguided evolution has produced all of the wonders of the living world; the conclusion is that it is true that unguided evolution has indeed produced all of those wonders. The argument form seems to be something like

    We know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that p;
    Therefore
    p is true.
    Philosophers sometimes propound invalid arguments few of those arguments .display the truly colossal distance between premise and conclusion sported by this one. I come into the departmental office and announce to the chairman that the dean has just authorized a $50,000 raise for me; naturally he wants to know why I think so. I tell him that we know of no irrefutable objections to its being possible that the dean has done that. My guess is he'd gently suggest that it is high time for me to retire.
    In The Blind Watchmaker, he considers the claim that since the self-replicating machinery of life is required for natural selection to work, God must have jumpstarted the whole evolutionary process by specially creating life in the first place—by specially creating the original replicating machinery of DNA and protein that makes natural selection possible. Dawkins retorts as follows:

    This is a transparently feeble argument, indeed it is obviously self-defeating. Organized complexity is the thing that we are having difficulty in explaining. Once we are allowed simply to postulate organized complexity, if only the organized complexity of the DNA/protein replicating machine, it is relatively easy to invoke it as a generator of yet more organized complexity… . But of course any God capable of intelligently designing something as complex as the DNA/protein machine must have been at least as complex and organized as that machine itself… . To explain the origin of the DNA/protein machine by invoking a supernatural Designer is to explain precisely nothing, for it leaves unexplained the origin of the Designer.
    In Darwin's Dangerous Idea, Daniel Dennett approvingly quotes this passage from Dawkins and declares it an "unrebuttable refutation, as devastating today as when Philo used it to trounce Cleanthes in Hume's Dialogues two centuries earlier." Now here in The God Delusion Dawkins approvingly quotes Dennett approvingly quoting Dawkins, and adds that Dennett (i.e., Dawkins) is entirely correct.

    Here there is much to say, but I'll say only a bit of it. First, suppose we land on an alien planet orbiting a distant star and discover machine-like objects that look and work just like tractors; our leader says "there must be intelligent beings on this planet who built those tractors." A first-year philosophy student on our expedition objects: "Hey, hold on a minute! You have explained nothing at all! Any intelligent life that designed those tractors would have to be at least as complex as they are." No doubt we'd tell him that a little learning is a dangerous thing and advise him to take the next rocket ship home and enroll in another philosophy course or two. For of course it is perfectly sensible, in that context, to explain the existence of those tractors in terms of intelligent life, even though (as we can concede for the moment) that intelligent life would have to be at least as complex as the tractors. The point is we aren't trying to give an ultimate explanation of organized complexity, and we aren't trying to explain organized complexity in general; we are only trying to explain one particular manifestation of it (those tractors). And (unless you are trying to give an ultimate explanation of organized complexity) it is perfectly proper to explain one manifestation of organized complexity in terms of another. Similarly, in invoking God as the original creator of life, we aren't trying to explain organized complexity in general, but only a particular kind of it, i.e., terrestrial life. So even if (contrary to fact, as I see it) God himself displays organized complexity, we would be perfectly sensible in explaining the existence of terrestrial life in terms of divine activity.

    A second point: Dawkins (and again Dennett echoes him) argues that "the main thing we want to explain" is "organized complexity." He goes on to say that "The one thing that makes evolution such a neat theory is that it explains how organized complexity can arise out of primeval simplicity," and he faults theism for being unable to explain organized complexity. Now mind would be an outstanding example of organized complexity, according to Dawkins, and of course (unlike with organized complexity) it is uncontroversial that God is a being who thinks and knows; so suppose we take Dawkins to be complaining that theism doesn't offer an explanation of mind. It is obvious that theists won't be able to give an ultimate explanation of mind, because, naturally enough, there isn't any explanation of the existence of God. Still, how is that a point against theism? Explanations come to an end; for theism they come to an end in God. Of course the same goes for any other view; on any view explanations come to an end. The materialist or physicalist, for example, doesn't have an explanation for the existence of elementary particles: they just are. So to claim that what we want or what we need is an ultimate explanation of mind is, once more, just to beg the question against theism; the theist neither wants nor needs an ultimate explanation of personhood, or thinking, or mind.

    Toward the end of the book, Dawkins endorses a certain limited skepticism. Since we have been cobbled together by (unguided) evolution, it is unlikely, he thinks, that our view of the world is overall accurate; natural selection is interested in adaptive behavior, not in true belief. But Dawkins fails to plumb the real depths of the skeptical implications of the view that we have come to be by way of unguided evolution. We can see this as follows. Like most naturalists, Dawkins is a materialist about human beings: human persons are material objects; they are not immaterial selves or souls or substances joined to a body, and they don't contain any immaterial substance as a part. From this point of view, our beliefs would be dependent on neurophysiology, and (no doubt) a belief would just be a neurological structure of some complex kind. Now the neurophysiology on which our beliefs depend will doubtless be adaptive; but why think for a moment that the beliefs dependent on or caused by that neurophysiology will be mostly true? Why think our cognitive faculties are reliable?

    From a theistic point of view, we'd expect that our cognitive faculties would be (for the most part, and given certain qualifications and caveats) reliable. God has created us in his image, and an important part of our image bearing is our resembling him in being able to form true beliefs and achieve knowledge. But from a naturalist point of view the thought that our cognitive faculties are reliable (produce a preponderance of true beliefs) would be at best a naïve hope. The naturalist can be reasonably sure that the neurophysiology underlying belief formation is adaptive, but nothing follows about the truth of the beliefs depending on that neurophysiology. In fact he'd have to hold that it is unlikely, given unguided evolution, that our cognitive faculties are reliable. It's as likely, given unguided evolution, that we live in a sort of dream world as that we actually know something about ourselves and our world.

    If this is so, the naturalist has a defeater for the natural assumption that his cognitive faculties are reliable—a reason for rejecting that belief, for no longer holding it. (Example of a defeater: suppose someone once told me that you were born in Michigan and I believed her; but now I ask you, and you tell me you were born in Brazil. That gives me a defeater for my belief that you were born in Michigan.) And if he has a defeater for that belief, he also has a defeater for any belief that is a product of his cognitive faculties. But of course that would be all of his beliefs—including naturalism itself. So the naturalist has a defeater for naturalism; natural- ism, therefore, is self-defeating and cannot be rationally believed.

    The real problem here, obviously, is Dawkins' naturalism, his belief that there is no such person as God or anyone like God. That is because naturalism implies that evolution is unguided. So a broader conclusion is that one can't rationally accept both naturalism and evolution; naturalism, therefore, is in conflict with a premier doctrine of contemporary science. People like Dawkins hold that there is a conflict between science and religion because they think there is a conflict between evolution and theism; the truth of the matter, however, is that the conflict is between science and naturalism, not between science and belief in God.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Inimitable Quran View Post
    The Dawkins Delusion: A Response to Richard Dawkins by Hamza Tzortzis

    "It can be seen from the above that Dawkins’ central argument fails and is an embarrassment to the scientific community, as atheist Philosopher Michael Ruse explains, '…unlike the new atheists, I take scholarship seriously. I have written that The God Delusion made me ashamed to be an atheist and I meant it. Trying to understand how God could need no cause, Christians claim that God exists necessarily. I have taken the effort to try to understand what that means. Dawkins and company are ignorant of such claims and positively contemptuous of those who even try to understand them, let alone believe them. Thus, like a first-year undergraduate, he can happily go around asking loudly, 'What caused God?' as though he had made some momentous philosophical discovery.'

    To read more please click here http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/20...o-richard.html
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post


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