Some serious question for ulama

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam 'alaikum

I have some questions that I need answered because Shaitan is playing with me.

1) I need to know in the opinion of the four mathaahib about the woman being consenting for marriage. Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway. Is this jaiz? Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?

2) Can little children be married (either to adults or to anyone else)? I'm taking like from age zero through to puberty. If a child is not baligh, can they give consent to the marriage or decline it?

3) If children under the age of puberty can be married, are their mates allowed to consumate the marriage with them? Would this be all right with someone who was under the age of puberty? Basically are there any conditions as to how old the wife/husband has to be before they have sex with their spouse?

I would very much like these questions to be answered by ulama, like Mawlana Nazim or Mawlana Hussain or any knowledgable brothers from any of the mathaahib. These things are bothering me as I thought that none of these things were allowed but now don't know and I want to know what is the correct stance I should hold.


TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

Jazakallah khair

[DefendingIslam]

TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

I do not remember myself making this thread, perhaps it is of another person, or of another topic?

[ataullah]

Salaam 'alaikum

I have some questions that I need answered because Shaitan is playing with me.

1) I need to know in the opinion of the four mathaahib about the woman being consenting for marriage. Brother Muadh posted about one issue where a woman did not give her consent, but the nikah went a head anyway. Is this jaiz? Can a father or wali in any of the mathaab marry his daughter to someone she does not want to marry and be with without her consent? I have always thought that this was not allowed in Islam but I am ignorant. If it is allowed, what is the wisdom or benefit in this?

2) Can little children be married (either to adults or to anyone else)? I'm taking like from age zero through to puberty. If a child is not baligh, can they give consent to the marriage or decline it?

3) If children under the age of puberty can be married, are their mates allowed to consumate the marriage with them? Would this be all right with someone who was under the age of puberty? Basically are there any conditions as to how old the wife/husband has to be before they have sex with their spouse?

I would very much like these questions to be answered by ulama, like Mawlana Nazim or Mawlana Hussain or any knowledgable brothers from any of the mathaahib. These things are bothering me as I thought that none of these things were allowed but now don't know and I want to know what is the correct stance I should hold.


TO BROTHER DEFENDINGISLAM: you had posted a thread about a christian priest making accusations of piedophillia. What happened to that thread and what were the answers (if any).

Jazakallah khair

Dear Brother,
Salaam,

Your have asked if the "consent" of a lady is required for marriage or not, or her guardians/wali/parents decision will hold irrespective if lady is agreed or not. I think that our own made traditions/customs have taken over the Islamic teachings. Quran tells about two types of ladies, one is "mosaynaat" (indpendent, self-decision taker, etc) and other is "Malook" (who is financially or socially dependent upon others and cannot takes her own decision. Let me first talk about "malook". Quran says that marry such ladies "with the permission" of their "folk" (Ahalayhanaa). This is for that man who cannot afford to marry the free(indpendent) woman.

Even by going through this verse, it is amply clear that a lady who is financially, socially, well established one require her consent and "agreement" for marriage. The basic conditions are that" you like her" and "one has enough financial means" to support the marriage.

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05.html

Underage marriage is not permitted, it is when the pair is "Matured",(puberty age, Balagh).

I hope your questions have been answered with reference to Quran.

waslaam.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

So what about the malook who cant take her own decisions? Can she be married without her consent?

I would rather have a knowledgable person answer these questions ( no offence brother ataullah, but we are both ignorant).

[Intrepid]

Dear Brother,
Salaam,

Your have asked if the "consent" of a lady is required for marriage or not, or her guardians/wali/parents decision will hold irrespective if lady is agreed or not. I think that our own made traditions/customs have taken over the Islamic teachings. Quran tells about two types of ladies, one is "mosaynaat" (indpendent, self-decision taker, etc) and other is "Malook" (who is financially or socially dependent upon others and cannot takes her own decision. Let me first talk about "malook". Quran says that marry such ladies "with the permission" of their "folk" (Ahalayhanaa). This is for that man who cannot afford to marry the free(indpendent) woman.

Even by going through this verse, it is amply clear that a lady who is financially, socially, well established one require her consent and "agreement" for marriage. The basic conditions are that" you like her" and "one has enough financial means" to support the marriage.

http://www.quraneasyurdu.net/ps05/ch05.html

Underage marriage is not permitted, it is when the pair is "Matured",(puberty age, Balagh).

I hope your questions have been answered with reference to Quran.

waslaam.

The brothers above is mistaken. To rectify the brother above and any misunderstanding I reluctantly answer the question, but would have prefered a more knowledgeable brother answering it. According to my limited knowledge in accordance with Hanafi fiqh the consent of a female is necessary in a marriage contract. Niether does she need the consent of her parents to marry. Underage marriage is permissible however upon reaching puberty she is entitled to divorce.

Allah knows best

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

The brothers above is mistaken. To rectify the brother above and any misunderstanding I reluctantly answer the question, but would have prefered a more knowledgeable brother answering it. According to my limited knowledge in accordance with Hanafi fiqh the consent of a female is necessary in a marriage contract. Niether does she need the consent of her parents to marry. Underage marriage is permissible however upon reaching puberty she is entitled to divorce.

Allah knows best

The marriage/nikah contract can be done by the wali for an underage girl, but she won't go live with or consummate the marriage with the man until developmental puberty is reached. At which point I believe she can also seek talaq or khula. It's more complicated than that, but that's the simplest version I've heard.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Jazakallah khair for the answers. So let me get this straight so I have a clear understanding:

1. According to the Hanafi mathaab, the wali of a child who is not yet baligh is allowed to commit the said child in a marriage contract, without the approval or consent of the non-baligh child.

2. The spouse of the non-baligh child is not permitted to have sexual intercourse with the non-baligh child nor consumate the marriage until the child becomes baligh. This would mean then (in my understanding), having reached the age of physical puberty is a requisite or condition (shart) for having sexual intercourse. (Is this correct, and if not, please someone clarify).

These are the two things I take away from the answers.

Now about the choice of the child upon reaching puberty of whether or not they accept the nikah or reject it. If they accept, they accept, without issue. But if they choose to reject they will need to have a divorce. For the male baligh, its not that big of a deal since he can just do talaaq (although I doubt very much that anyone would marry their son to an older woman). But if it is a female, she would have to do khula, and for this I understand she has to get a Qadhi involved, and she also needs a valid excuse or she is sinful. Would the fact that she just did not want to be married to said person (whether the spouse is the same age or older) be enough of an excuse for her to get a divorce? If that is not enough, would she have to be married to the person and consumate the marriage, etc, until a valid reason came up (like abuse)? Please can someone clarify that?

Also for my first question in the original post, I think I have our hanafi answer(atleast vaguely). What about the other mathaahib?

I'm asking these things with sincerity and not wanting to cause trouble or someting. I just want to understand because I was under the impression that no one could be married (baligh or not) without their consent and approval. But as I am learning, non-baligh children can in fact be married off without their approval and then after they become baligh the only way out for them is through talaaq or khula (khula being, in my understanding a very complicated issue with conditions for its validity). I would like the ulama to address these if possible, as I think a lot of people would like a detailed, scholarly explaination, as I am 100% certain that the majority of muslims living in the west are under the assumption that no such 'forced marriages' can take place, and that they are haram. Learning otherwise could be and is a shock to alot of people and shaitan and his followers can use this to cast doubt in our hearts. Its up to the ulama to clear these things and properly explain matters, otherwise we could be led astray.

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

You bring up in another thread the issue of using the term 'forced marriage', I believe the corresponding term in Western culture is 'betrothal'. If you look it up, it was a common practice in the West even until the dawn of the 20th century.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Yes you are right, accept the term can be used in two senses:
1. That two people are betrothed or rather promised to be married to one another (which is engagment today) with the consent and agreement of the couple.
2. That one or both are betrothed without their consent.

The key however is that this is a promise to be married, not actual marriage. Therefore to break a betrothal, one would not need a divorce. This is not the same as forced or compelled marriage, as it is marriage, and the only way that I understand that it is broken is via divorce(talaaq/khula).

But even if the Westerners do it, I don't really care, as it makes zero difference to me. They used to do a lot of things which they themselves have now rejected. So they are no proof of anything be right or wrong. But jazakallah khair for bringing my attention to that.

[HaajiMahjubi]