Statement of Allamah Anwar Kashmiri

[abuhajira]

As salaam alaikum,

Well, I wasn't expecting anything soon, so I took the liberty of getting the passage translated by a friend who is studying in the 3rd year of the Faculty of Shari'ah at al-Azhar ash-Shareef.

The following is the statement of 'Allamah Anwar Shah Kashmeeri (rahimahullah), posted by Ansari in an attempt to prove that the Salaf practised Tafweedh al-Ma'naa. However, it is quite apparent from the translation below that the statement supports Tafweedh al-Kayfiyyah whilst affirming the Dhaahir (apparent meaning).

Below is the Arabic text followed by the english translation:


، فالحاصل أن نزول الباري إلى سماء الدنيا نزول حقيقة يحمل على ظاهره ويفوض تفصيله وتكييفه إلى الباري عز برهانه ، وهو مذهب الأئمة الأربعة والسلف الصالحين كما نقله الحافظ في فتح الباري عنه



So, the conclusion is that the Descention of Al-Baaree (The Originator of all from nothing without any previous examples to that which He Created) to the Earths sky (it should have been al-samaa' al-dunya meaning the lowest heaven as is in the hadeeth, but the meaning is, inshallah, the same) is a true decention carried upon its literal/primary meaning with its detail and modality left to Al-Baaree, honoured be his proof and evidence, and it is (this conclusion) the mathhab of the four imams and the pious predicessors, as al-haafidth (ibnu hajar) related in al-fath (fathul-baaree- his commentary of saheehul-bukhaaree).

What does it take to read up on the previous threads to see what has already been discussed to the limits and yet not resolved...

Br. Abu Zayd:

Nuzul Ila Samaa, Istawa, Fawq, `alaa are ALL Mushtarak (min wajh.. between its haqeeqi meaning and majazi meaning) words.. they have the possibility of carrying different meanings. To establish one meaning of it with 100% is not possible (we need concrete daleel for that), which is why they (essentially) may carry both the interpretation of Salafi as well Kashmiri's r.a view. But if that were the case we havve 3 concerns..

a. If it were taken as the salafi are taking, what was the need to put "ويفوض تفصيله وتكييفه " .. Essentially, a word will have a meaning and a description. If takyeef is description, thenwhat does tafseel refer to? the translator used the words "detail and modality"... these both mean the same thing! modality is the detail in description of the word.. So his translation is not precise.

b. In such case (I say) the tafseel is refering to it establishing of a meaning (i.e dwelling in the details of attributing a meaning to the word) for it while takyeef is the modality. As for the translation for "حقيقة يحمل على ظاهره " then this will differ depending on whether you are salafi or otherwise (and that too, what which level in debate that salafi is.).. Please read the thread about Dhahir according to Salafi & the discussion with musleemah for this understanding.

The tranlsator's translations "is a true decention carried upon its literal/primary meaning" is ALSO incorrect..

i) When the salaf used "Haqeeqatan" in relations to mutashabihaat, they referts to affirmation.. and not haqeeqi Lughwi meaning. (salafis come to this explanation only after they have debated for some time, because they realize that they cannot call this haqiqi as its haqiqi meaning as many new salafies do)
ii) When the salaf say "Yahmilu Ala Dhahirihi" it does not refer to its dhahiri meaning as explained to umpteenth level in the other thread.. rather it means to take it as it appears. and all similar statements are taken upon this understanding. If it had meant dhahiri meaning, then that along with the usage of "Haqeeqatan" in the same sentence make a Usooli blunder. because dhahiri meaning is not always the haqeeqi meaning. Sr. Musleemah has affirmed of that in her discussion as well.
iii) Salafi reply to this by saying that when haqeeqa comes along with ala dhahiri hi, then it is either not for haqeeqi meaning at all rather for mere afirmation.. OR if it is taken to be haqeeqi meaning then that haqeeqi just happen to be the dhahiri meaning.. (as mentioned above)
iv) Ala Dhahirihi, is the whole contention that changes the meanings for all the texts.. so if you will take the translation from a salafi and then make that as a hujjah, it will not suffice. You have to establish why dhahirihi, refers to `ala dhahiri ma'nihi and not `ala ma yudhaharu bihi.

c. The translator has also translated "Yufawidu" by saying "with" as I have highlighted. This is incorrect. Yufawwidu is from baab taf'eel, that means it cannot mean "with its detail.." rather it means.. "tafweed will be made with regards to its tafseel and takyeef." and as I mentioned above.. we would say tafseel refers to its haqeeqi meaning and not description.

[Abu Zayd al-Atharee]

What does it take to read up on the previous threads to see what has already been discussed to the limits and yet not resolved...

Br. Abu Zayd:

Nuzul Ila Samaa, Istawa, Fawq, `alaa are ALL Mushtarak (min wajh.. between its haqeeqi meaning and majazi meaning) words.. they have the possibility of carrying different meanings. To establish one meaning of it with 100% is not possible (we need concrete daleel for that), which is why they (essentially) may carry both the interpretation of Salafi as well Kashmiri's r.a view. But if that were the case we havve 3 concerns..

a. If it were taken as the salafi are taking, what was the need to put "ويفوض تفصيله وتكييفه " .. Essentially, a word will have a meaning and a description. If takyeef is description, thenwhat does tafseel refer to? the translator used the words "detail and modality"... these both mean the same thing! modality is the detail in description of the word.. So his translation is not precise.

b. In such case (I say) the tafseel is refering to it establishing of a meaning (i.e dwelling in the details of attributing a meaning to the word) for it while takyeef is the modality. As for the translation for "حقيقة يحمل على ظاهره " then this will differ depending on whether you are salafi or otherwise (and that too, what which level in debate that salafi is.).. Please read the thread about Dhahir according to Salafi & the discussion with musleemah for this understanding.

The tranlsator's translations "is a true decention carried upon its literal/primary meaning" is ALSO incorrect..

i) When the salaf used "Haqeeqatan" in relations to mutashabihaat, they referts to affirmation.. and not haqeeqi Lughwi meaning. (salafis come to this explanation only after they have debated for some time, because they realize that they cannot call this haqiqi as its haqiqi meaning as many new salafies do)
ii) When the salaf say "Yahmilu Ala Dhahirihi" it does not refer to its dhahiri meaning as explained to umpteenth level in the other thread.. rather it means to take it as it appears. and all similar statements are taken upon this understanding. If it had meant dhahiri meaning, then that along with the usage of "Haqeeqatan" in the same sentence make a Usooli blunder. because dhahiri meaning is not always the haqeeqi meaning. Sr. Musleemah has affirmed of that in her discussion as well.
iii) Salafi reply to this by saying that when haqeeqa comes along with ala dhahiri hi, then it is either not for haqeeqi meaning at all rather for mere afirmation.. OR if it is taken to be haqeeqi meaning then that haqeeqi just happen to be the dhahiri meaning.. (as mentioned above)
iv) Ala Dhahirihi, is the whole contention that changes the meanings for all the texts.. so if you will take the translation from a salafi and then make that as a hujjah, it will not suffice. You have to establish why dhahirihi, refers to `ala dhahiri ma'nihi and not `ala ma yudhaharu bihi.

c. The translator has also translated "Yufawidu" by saying "with" as I have highlighted. This is incorrect. Yufawwidu is from baab taf'eel, that means it cannot mean "with its detail.." rather it means.. "tafweed will be made with regards to its tafseel and takyeef." and as I mentioned above.. we would say tafseel refers to its haqeeqi meaning and not description.

As salaam alaikum,

May Allah reward you for your reply, Ameen.

As for your first concern (point a.), Salafis believe that Nuzool is actual action attributed to Allah (‘azza wa jal) which necessitates carrying the word upon its literal/primary meaning. However, Salafis believe that Allahs attributes, which include His actions, are unlike His creations and do not resemble His creation in anyway whatsoever which necessitates doing Tafweedh of the Takyeef. Salafis also believe that Allah is separate from His creation and that He does not enter or dwell within His creation, yet He is attributed with Nuzool, all of which necessitates doing Tafweedh of the Tafseel because we are unable to comprehend or perceive such a matter. Alhamdulillah, ‘Allaamah Shah Anwar Kashmeeri (rahimahullah) explanation is exactly what Salafis believe.

As for your second concern (point b.), Tafseel means elaboration which is to provide a fuller or additional meaning. Something we cannot do because we only know that which Allah and His Rasool (sallallahu ‘alahi wa sallam) has informed us with.

With regards to the translation being incorrect. Taking something as it appears includes the apparent wording and meaning, it is for such a purpose that Allah (‘azza wa jal) informed us that there is nothing like Him and that He has no similitude. The Qur’an is ‘Kitaabun Mubeen’.

As for your third concern (point c.), the translation is fine it’s just not a word for word translation. And he did not translate ‘Yufawidu’ as ‘with’, but you have to read the whole sentence, he stated, ‘with its detail and modality left to….’. And as I have mentioned, Tafseel means elaboration, which means to provide a fuller or extra information and, as stated, we do not know more than that which we have received from Allah and His Rasool (sallallahu ‘alahi wa sallam).

May Allah guide and unite us upon the truth, Ameen.

[Zhulfiqar]

What does it take to read up on the previous threads to see what has already been discussed to the limits and yet not resolved...

Br. Abu Zayd:

Nuzul Ila Samaa, Istawa, Fawq, `alaa are ALL Mushtarak (min wajh.. between its haqeeqi meaning and majazi meaning) words.. they have the possibility of carrying different meanings. To establish one meaning of it with 100% is not possible (we need concrete daleel for that), which is why they (essentially) may carry both the interpretation of Salafi as well Kashmiri's r.a view. But if that were the case we havve 3 concerns..

a. If it were taken as the salafi are taking, what was the need to put "ويفوض تفصيله وتكييفه " .. Essentially, a word will have a meaning and a description. If takyeef is description, thenwhat does tafseel refer to? the translator used the words "detail and modality"... these both mean the same thing! modality is the detail in description of the word.. So his translation is not precise.

b. In such case (I say) the tafseel is refering to it establishing of a meaning (i.e dwelling in the details of attributing a meaning to the word) for it while takyeef is the modality. As for the translation for "حقيقة يحمل على ظاهره " then this will differ depending on whether you are salafi or otherwise (and that too, what which level in debate that salafi is.).. Please read the thread about Dhahir according to Salafi & the discussion with musleemah for this understanding.

The tranlsator's translations "is a true decention carried upon its literal/primary meaning" is ALSO incorrect..

i) When the salaf used "Haqeeqatan" in relations to mutashabihaat, they referts to affirmation.. and not haqeeqi Lughwi meaning. (salafis come to this explanation only after they have debated for some time, because they realize that they cannot call this haqiqi as its haqiqi meaning as many new salafies do)
ii) When the salaf say "Yahmilu Ala Dhahirihi" it does not refer to its dhahiri meaning as explained to umpteenth level in the other thread.. rather it means to take it as it appears. and all similar statements are taken upon this understanding. If it had meant dhahiri meaning, then that along with the usage of "Haqeeqatan" in the same sentence make a Usooli blunder. because dhahiri meaning is not always the haqeeqi meaning. Sr. Musleemah has affirmed of that in her discussion as well.
iii) Salafi reply to this by saying that when haqeeqa comes along with ala dhahiri hi, then it is either not for haqeeqi meaning at all rather for mere afirmation.. OR if it is taken to be haqeeqi meaning then that haqeeqi just happen to be the dhahiri meaning.. (as mentioned above)
iv) Ala Dhahirihi, is the whole contention that changes the meanings for all the texts.. so if you will take the translation from a salafi and then make that as a hujjah, it will not suffice. You have to establish why dhahirihi, refers to `ala dhahiri ma'nihi and not `ala ma yudhaharu bihi.

c. The translator has also translated "Yufawidu" by saying "with" as I have highlighted. This is incorrect. Yufawwidu is from baab taf'eel, that means it cannot mean "with its detail.." rather it means.. "tafweed will be made with regards to its tafseel and takyeef." and as I mentioned above.. we would say tafseel refers to its haqeeqi meaning and not description.

Assalaamu 'Alaikoem brother Abu Hajira,

JazakAllah khayran djiddan! This has really clarified a lot points about 'ala dhahira' and about the points what was meant by the Salaf as Salih with 'haqiqatan', this makes a lot sense.

[abuhajira]

As salaam alaikum,

May Allah reward you for your reply, Ameen.

Jazak Alalh for your reply.. I really did not wish to discuss this issue, ( i still cant help but slap my thigh..as to why I even posted my last post)... All this has been discussed with sister musleemah.. you may read it.. Salafis differ in usool with regards to thins term with us... so there really is no debate..

As for your first concern (point a.), Salafis believe that Nuzool is actual action attributed to Allah (‘azza wa jal) which necessitates carrying the word upon its literal/primary meaning. However, Salafis believe that Allahs attributes, which include His actions, are unlike His creations and do not resemble His creation in anyway whatsoever which necessitates doing Tafweedh of the Takyeef. Salafis also believe that Allah is separate from His creation and that He does not enter or dwell within His creation, yet He is attributed with Nuzool, all of which necessitates doing Tafweedh of the Tafseel because we are unable to comprehend or perceive such a matter. Alhamdulillah, ‘Allaamah Shah Anwar Kashmeeri (rahimahullah) explanation is exactly what Salafis believe.

a. I do know what the salafis believe with regards to tafweed. And it is not exactly how Salaf believed. my basis is what I have already discussed in the other thread. There is no sareeh qareena (i have seen so far) in any of the salaf's writings which suggest that tafweed ul kayfiya is intended and not tafweed ma'na wal kayfiya.. All the references you will provide in favour of tafweed ul kayfiya, can.. not only be interpreted for full tafweed, rather make better sense that way and are more cautious in approach.

As for your second concern (point b.), Tafseel means elaboration which is to provide a fuller or additional meaning. Something we cannot do because we only know that which Allah and His Rasool (sallallahu ‘alahi wa sallam) has informed us with.

b. Tafseel in lughwi (haqeeqi and majazi) sense can mean so many things that it is incumbant to see the context. In our context it cannot be seen as a further explanation. there is no qareena to show that. For that you have to establish beyond doubt what the non-fuller meaning. This is a new distinction that a word will have a non-fuller meaning, and a fuller meaning. In kalam Allah, which is Ablaghul Kalaam and Abyanul Kalam, do you think that Allah will leave something at its non-fuller meaning for the people to believe in as Aqeeda and not provide complete Bayan through his Rasul ?

Moreover, this is what mutashabiha means.. that it is such a thing which cannot be resolved. this was mentioned with proper citation in the other thread as well.

A second approach would be to take the word tafseel and scruitanize it even further. It is again bab taf'eel, that is from fassal yufassilu, meaning making fasal .. Now if you have a mushtarak worf, making fasal in it making ta;weel in it. and that would also fit here .. i.e we will not make ta'weel or tafseel in regards to Nuzul of Allah. and we claim, that is what the Aslaaf believed as well.

So in all such different interpretations, how is that our salafi brothers only choose the one thats fits theirs understanding and put aside all other ways.

With regards to the translation being incorrect. Taking something as it appears includes the apparent wording and meaning, it is for such a purpose that Allah (‘azza wa jal) informed us that there is nothing like Him and that He has no similitude. The Qur’an is ‘Kitaabun Mubeen’.

Please cite the reference that taking something on its dhahir necessitates that you take its wording and meaning.. Or rather read the other thread as to why Our Usooliyeen have differed in the core concepts of the word dhahir.. Once we accept that farq, there is nothing to discuss here..

The Quran is Kitabun Mubeen, this is a frail argument in issues which pertain to mutashabihaat.. How does this explain Alif Laam Meen? It doesnt.. That is also a mutashabihat.. albeit not in sifaat of Allah.. (this was also discussed in the other thread.. you may see there the details)..

As for your third concern (point c.), the translation is fine it’s just not a word for word translation. And he did not translate ‘Yufawidu’ as ‘with’, but you have to read the whole sentence, he stated, ‘with its detail and modality left to….’. And as I have mentioned, Tafseel means elaboration, which means to provide a fuller or extra information and, as stated, we do not know more than that which we have received from Allah and His Rasool (sallallahu ‘alahi wa sallam).

May Allah guide and unite us upon the truth, Ameen.

You are very `jeeb akhi... first you seek help from a third person to translate, and then you establish affirmation of "fine" on that translation. If your own authority in translation was so good, why did you seek a third person's help?

For my purpose can you cite a reference from the aslaaf that "tafseel" in language refers to "a fuller or extra information" and CANNOT mean merely explaining the word?

What we know about Nuzul of Allah.. is that it happens.. But what Allah means by it or how Allah goes about it is not mentioned to us. Please post from the aslaaf something which mentions sarahatan that nuzul is in its haqeeqi meaning. the term Dhahir is mubham on its own.. there are so many view in it.. so bring something sareeh. I once read one tafseer which mentioned that mutashabihaat are such that you just read upon them.. and that is how you believe in them.. I will have to look for it again..

BTW brother since you mentioned that Nuzul will have a non fuller meaning.. I mean how do you give a meaning to nuzool of Allah.. i.e if you say it means decend.. then what does decend mean? I am not asking about takyeef which you as an athari also make tafweed of.. I am asking what is this meaning which you are claiming to know...

[Abu Zayd al-Atharee]

Jazak Alalh for your reply.. I really did not wish to discuss this issue, ( i still cant help but slap my thigh..as to why I even posted my last post)... All this has been discussed with sister musleemah.. you may read it.. Salafis differ in usool with regards to thins term with us... so there really is no debate..



a. I do know what the salafis believe with regards to tafweed. And it is not exactly how Salaf believed. my basis is what I have already discussed in the other thread. There is no sareeh qareena (i have seen so far) in any of the salaf's writings which suggest that tafweed ul kayfiya is intended and not tafweed ma'na wal kayfiya.. All the references you will provide in favour of tafweed ul kayfiya, can.. not only be interpreted for full tafweed, rather make better sense that way and are more cautious in approach.



b. Tafseel in lughwi (haqeeqi and majazi) sense can mean so many things that it is incumbant to see the context. In our context it cannot be seen as a further explanation. there is no qareena to show that. For that you have to establish beyond doubt what the non-fuller meaning. This is a new distinction that a word will have a non-fuller meaning, and a fuller meaning. In kalam Allah, which is Ablaghul Kalaam and Abyanul Kalam, do you think that Allah will leave something at its non-fuller meaning for the people to believe in as Aqeeda and not provide complete Bayan through his Rasul ?

Moreover, this is what mutashabiha means.. that it is such a thing which cannot be resolved. this was mentioned with proper citation in the other thread as well.

A second approach would be to take the word tafseel and scruitanize it even further. It is again bab taf'eel, that is from fassal yufassilu, meaning making fasal .. Now if you have a mushtarak worf, making fasal in it making ta;weel in it. and that would also fit here .. i.e we will not make ta'weel or tafseel in regards to Nuzul of Allah. and we claim, that is what the Aslaaf believed as well.

So in all such different interpretations, how is that our salafi brothers only choose the one thats fits theirs understanding and put aside all other ways.



Please cite the reference that taking something on its dhahir necessitates that you take its wording and meaning.. Or rather read the other thread as to why Our Usooliyeen have differed in the core concepts of the word dhahir.. Once we accept that farq, there is nothing to discuss here..

The Quran is Kitabun Mubeen, this is a frail argument in issues which pertain to mutashabihaat.. How does this explain Alif Laam Meen? It doesnt.. That is also a mutashabihat.. albeit not in sifaat of Allah.. (this was also discussed in the other thread.. you may see there the details)..



You are very `jeeb akhi... first you seek help from a third person to translate, and then you establish affirmation of "fine" on that translation. If your own authority in translation was so good, why did you seek a third person's help?

For my purpose can you cite a reference from the aslaaf that "tafseel" in language refers to "a fuller or extra information" and CANNOT mean merely explaining the word?

What we know about Nuzul of Allah.. is that it happens.. But what Allah means by it or how Allah goes about it is not mentioned to us. Please post from the aslaaf something which mentions sarahatan that nuzul is in its haqeeqi meaning. the term Dhahir is mubham on its own.. there are so many view in it.. so bring something sareeh. I once read one tafseer which mentioned that mutashabihaat are such that you just read upon them.. and that is how you believe in them.. I will have to look for it again..

BTW brother since you mentioned that Nuzul will have a non fuller meaning.. I mean how do you give a meaning to nuzool of Allah.. i.e if you say it means decend.. then what does decend mean? I am not asking about takyeef which you as an athari also make tafweed of.. I am asking what is this meaning which you are claiming to know...

As salaam alaikum,

Can In ask, judging from what I have typed, do you consider me to be a Salafi in 'Aqeedah? Because I find some of your objections not pertaining to what I believe, but more in line with what a Mujassimah or Mushabihah believes.

[abuhajira]

As salaam alaikum,

Can In ask, judging from what I have typed, do you consider me to be a Salafi in 'Aqeedah? Because I find some of your objections not pertaining to what I believe, but more in line with what a Mujassimah or Mushabihah believes.

akhi,

I dont know you, then how can i think something of you. What I will make an opinion is what you will type here. And what you type shows you to be a salafi.

Sis Musleema (Allah keep her well) also came here to discuss these issues, and also mentioned what you are saying, that what we think to be salafi is not what she has learnt and believes...

Anyway, I did not wish to jump into this discussion in the first place.. I think the discussion belongs to Ansari and he has explained Allama Kashmiri's stance very well. I will though, on my own check Allamah's rasail over the next couple of days and see if i can find something..