Another Gem from Sh. Taha Karaan (re. building on graves)

[Husain]

As most of you would be aware, the issue of building over graves was discussed in detail on this forum previously, especially in this thread.

Ample reference was made to various Fatawa from Sunnipath (see here and here), wherein they claimed
1- the position of permissibility to be a strong one in the Shafi'i madhab, based on the statements of Allamah Ibn Hajr al-Haytami
2- That the great Hadith Master, al-Hakim, had mentioned building on graves to be the practice of the salaf, based on a quote from his al-Mustadrak that was mentioned by Ibn Hajr al-Haytami in his Fatawa al-Kubra.

This later statement was shown to be a misquote from al-Mustadrak, ostensibly by Allamah ibn Hajr al-Haytami, as Hakim was referring to writing on graves, not building on them.

I had the good fortune of being the guest of Shaykh Taha Karaan in Cape Town during the weekend and had mentioned in passing this misquote by Allamah Ibn Hajr.
Shaykh Taha replied that he is sure that Allamah Ibn Hajr had quoted Hakim as saying writing is permissible, not building, however he will check up.

I received an email from Shaykh Taha last night, which revealed the following:

1- Ibn Hajr al-Haytami had quoted Hakim as saying that writing on graves was the practice of the Salaf. This is under Fatwa #34 of Kitab al-Janaiz.

2- 9 Fatwa's later, Ibn Hajr is posed a detailed question, wherein 2 contradictory answers by on the issue of building on graves are put in front of him, seeking his opinion.One is the famous view of impermissibility, while the second one is one of permissibility. The authors of these answers aren't mentioned.
It is the author of this second answer who misquotes Hakim and who also brings quotes from books like al-Khadim of al-Zarkashi etc in an attempt to prove permission for building.

Ibn Hajr al-Haytami's reply to this is clear in that building is not permissible in a public graveyard and also that the view of permission mentioned in al-Khadim etc is weak and doesn't deserve any attention!
He also clearly states that any such a building should be torn down.


From this we learnt that the following claims (some in the Sunnipath answer and others made on this forum) are all incorrect:

1- There exists Ijma' of the salaf on the permission of building on graves
2- Hakim narrated this Ijma' in his al-Mustadrak
3- Ibn Hajr al-Haytami permitted building on graves
4- The view of permission is a strong view in the Shafi'i madhab, as shown by Ibn Hajr al-Haytami.

We ask Allah Ta'ala to greatly reward Shaykh Taha for bringing this to our attention.
Amin

[Hamood]

JazakAllah for informing us.

I hope SP (or whoever else) can fix and/or remove some of these incorrect fatawa from their site. It's a huge responsibility on their shoulders.

[faqir]

JazakAllah for informing us.

I hope SP (or whoever else) can fix and/or remove some of these incorrect fatawa from their site. It's a huge responsibility on their shoulders.

for any interested, shaykh gibril was asked about shaykh amjad's fatwa... he said:


The only inaccuracy I found was in the quotation of al-Hakim, "These [m:
hadiths] are not acted upon, for all Muslim imams, east and west, have
structures over their graves, and this is something that the later generations
(Ar. khalaf) took from the early generations (Ar. salaf)." Al-Hakim did not
literally say "structures over their graves" but "inscriptions over their
graves."

This misquotation appears to be due to a riwaya bil-ma`na (ad sensum) in one of
the fiqh books being cited. Why? because the gist is clear that such
inscriptions were obviously not made on thatched leaf or soil, but on durable
material such as gypsum, stone or marble as the practice has been for centuries.
So an argument can be made that al-Hakim used the word "inscriptions" as a short
form that encapsulated the other structural terms mentioned in the hadith to
which he explicitly refers and which he cites just before his comments, namely:
"The Prophet, upon him blessings and peace, forbade the gypsum-whitening of
graves, writing over them, building on top of them, and sitting on them."

Other than that the words of Shaykh Amjad are precise and accurate, his
representation of the various positions in the Shafi`i Madhhab and their
relative strength is as clear as the sun, as is the difference between
stipulative (nassi) ijma` and de facto (`amali) ijma`, or at least should be to
the students of knowledge. Tawfiq is only from Allah Most High.

Was-Salam,
GF Haddad

[Husain]

for any interested, shaykh gibril was asked about shaykh amjad's fatwa... he said:
.
.
.
Was-Salam,
GF Haddad

Yes, GF also completely misunderstood the Hanafi position in Dur al-Mukhtar, claiming regarding building on graves:
"Yet the chosen position in al-Durr al-Mukhtar is that is is not makruh"

This passage isn't referring to building on graves! He would have noticed that had he taken the pains to open the Hashiyah of Ibn Abidin.

Another example of how our Traditionalist bro's will try to show consensus of the 4 madhabs on issues they differ with us on, yet they will insist on continuously accusing us of that which they perpetrate!

for any interested, shaykh gibril was asked about shaykh amjad's fatwa... he said:

Other than that the words of Shaykh Amjad are precise and accurate, his
representation of the various positions in the Shafi`i Madhhab and their
relative strength is as clear as the sun

Seeing that Sh. Amjad's fatwa is precise, accurate and as clear as the sun, we can realise the error of GF's claim that:

The mu`tamad in the Shafi`i and Hanbali is that it is mubah if built
on private property and makruh if built on common land as it narrows
down public space.

Sh. Amjad, in accordance to the mu'tamad of his madhab, has shown that it is HARAM in public and waqf graveyards and Makruh in private property.

[salman]

salamu `alaykum

Another example of how our Traditionalist bro's will try to show consensus of the 4 madhabs on issues they differ with us on, yet they will insist on continuously accusing us of that which they perpetrate!

Could you kindly demonstrate, sayyidi, where consensus was claimed?

barakallah feekum

Wasalam
Salman

[Husain]

salamu `alaykum


Could you kindly demonstrate, sayyidi, where consensus was claimed?

barakallah feekum

Wasalam
Salman

Could you please show where I said consensus was claimed?

I said "will try to show consensus of the 4 madhabs", which is clearly what GF tried to show in that article of his on his group and some forums.

[yousufs]

very important note..

[abdulwahhab]

mufti saheb for this clarification.

Sh. Taha is Shafi'i in madhhab so if there was an ijma' among the Shafi'is on this, Sh. Taha would not speak against it.

[Shamli 1857]

Jazakallah khayr Mufti Husain and please convey our many thanks to Shaykh Ta Ha. I hope SP makes amends and I hope people who indulged in misrepresenting the Shafi mazhab in that thread come make corrections.

[ENIGMA]

Ibn Hajr al-Haytami's reply to this is clear in that building is not permissible in a public graveyard and also that the view of permission mentioned in al-Khadim etc is weak and doesn't deserve any attention!
He also clearly states that any such a building should be torn down.

May Allah bless Mufti Sahib immensely for bringing this to our attention.

Just one thing i'd like clarified. above it states that building on PUBLIC graveyeards in not permissable. what about building on a grave in a private graveyard?

by the way,has this information been relayed to Sunni Path?

Can I get a quick bio of Shaykh Taha Please?