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Thread: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?

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    Default How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?

    Salam Alaykum,

    The following was posted on a Salafi website attacking Hassan Saqqaf for the position he took about Muawiyah (RAA). Even though I normally do not quote Salafi sites, yet from what I have heard the likes of Ninowy have belittled Muawiyah (RAA) to an unfair degree, and Ghumari even called him a disbeliever.

    So if someone knwoledgeable can read this and point out how much of it is true and how much is false, it would be appreciated:

    Shaykh Ali Halabi stated the Saqqaaf attacked and abused this companion, however his followers accused Shaykh Ali Halabi of lying. Here I present a translation of Saqqaaf's footnotes to ‘Daf` Shubah at-Tashbeeh’ provided to me by his own followers to refute their claim.
    Saqqaaf states in his footnotes to ‘Daf` Shubah’ (pg. 237),

    "I say: and Mu`aawiyah killed a group of righteous people from the Sahaabah and other noble personalities for the sake of gaining sovereignty. And from those was Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Khaalid bin Waleed. Ibn Jareer said in his ‘Taareekh’ (3/202) and ibn Atheer in ‘al-Kaamil’ (3/453) and the wording is his,

    ‘And the reason for his - Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Khaalid bin Waleed - death was that he became prominent in the eyes of the People of Shaam, and they inclined towards him due to his possessing characteristics of his father, and due to his usefulness (to the Muslims) in the Land of the Romans, and due to his great courage. So Mu`aawiyah became afraid and apprehensive of him, and commanded ibn Uthaal, the Christian, that he plan his murder. Mu`aawiyah guaranteed him exemption from his tax for as long as he lived and that he would be placed in charge of the tax revenues of Homs (a land in central Syria).

    So when Abd ar-Rahmaan returned from Rum, ibn Uthaal slipped him a poisoned drink through the means of his servants. So he drank it and died at Hums, and Mu`aawiyah fulfilled what he had guaranteed ibn Uthaal.’

    I say: is it permissible to kill a Muslim, and Allaah says, ‘and whosoever kills a believer deliberately, then his reward is Hellfire, to remain in there forever. And the Anger of Allaah is upon him and His Curse, and a great punishment is prepared for him" (4/93)?! And it was due to this that Hasan al-Basri said, with regards to Mu`aawiyah, as in ‘al-Kaamil’ (3/487),

    ‘There were four characteristics in Mu`aawiyah, and any one of them would have been a grave offense: His hastening towards evil by the sword against this Ummah until he took the matter (Khilaafate) without consultation, and amongst them were the remaining Sahaabah and other notable people. His passing the rule onto his son, an alcoholic, wearer of silk, and player of musical instruments. His claim to Ziyaad, and the Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said, "the child is for the bed, and for the fornicator is stoning." And he killed Hujr and the companions of Hujr, so woe to him for what he did to Hujr! And woe to him for what he did to the companions of Hujr!’

    [This is related without an isnaad in ‘al-Kaamil’ but there is an isnaad to it in at-Tabaree but it is fabricated according to the standards of the scholars of hadeeth. See ‘Ittihaaf Ahl al-Fadl’ (vol 1) of Shaikh Naasir al-Alwaan for an in depth discussion. So Saqqaaf is blameworthy for narrating something to prove his corrupt stance which is not quoted with an isnaad in the reference he gives, and hence impermissible as evidence. Secondly he is blameworthy for quoting something that after investigation turns out to be a fabrication! ]

    I say: so when the life of Mu`aawiyah is like this!!

    [A clear statement that all that has preceded was with regards to this noble companion]

    There does not occur anything from the Prophet (SAW) with regards to his virtues, and al-Haafidh adh-Dhahabee quotes in ‘Siyar A`laam an-Nubalaa’ (3/132) from Ishaaq bin Raahaway that he said, ‘there is nothing authentic from the Prophet (SAW) on the virtue of Mu`aawiyah’

    And it is established in the Saheeh of Muslim (3/2010 no.2604) from ibn Abbaas that he Prophet (SAW) said to him. ‘go and call Mu`aawiyah.’ He said, ‘so I returned and said, "he is eating"’ so the Messenger (SAW) said, ‘may Allaah not fill his belly’

    And on (pg. 241),

    "So is an ijtihaad correct which allows killing Muslims, believing in the Oneness of Allaah.....?!

    And is an ijtihaad permissible when there occurs a text (on the point in question)?! And it is mutawaatir from him (SAW) that he said about our Master Ammaar who fought alongside the Leader of the Believers, our Master Ali, ‘you will be killed by the aggressive party’ as is established in Bukhaaree and Muslim.

    So is an ijtihaad valid despite the occurrence of many authentic texts (against it), from amongst them his saying (SAW), with regards to our Master Ali (RA), ‘the one to whom I am the mawlaa then Ali is his mawlaa. O Allaah love the one who loves him, and show enmity to the one who shows enmity to him.’

    And al-Haafidh adh-Dhahabee said in ‘Siyar A`laam an-Nubala’ (8/335) about this hadeeth, ‘mutawaatir.’

    And in the Saheeh of Muslim (no.78 in al-Eemaan) about our Master Ali (RA) from him that he said, ‘indeed the promise of the unlettered Prophet (SAW) to me was, "none save a believer will love you, and none save a hypocrite will hate you."’

    I say: so what is the ruling on the one that commands abusing and cursing our Master Ali the mawlaa of the believers by the testimony of the Messenger of the Lord of the Universe upon the pulpits?!!

    And what is the ruling of the one who tests his subjects by cursing our Master Ali (RA) and to disassociate from him, and kills the one who does not abuse and curse him?!!

    And from the strange, truly laughable things after this is that you find ibn Katheer saying in the ‘chapter on Covenants (Aqd)’ in his ‘Taareekh’ (8/20) about the virtue of Mu`aawiyah, ‘he is Mu`aawiyah bin Abee Sufyaan... uncle of the believers, and the writer of the revelation of the Lord of the Universe, he embraced Islaam and his father and mother were Hindus... on the Day of the Conquest.’ Then he said after that, ‘and the intention here is to show that Mu`aawiyah used to write the revelation alongside others....’

    [This proves that all that has preceded is with regards to Mu`aawiyah. However it should be known that there is no clear authentic text that shows that Mu`aawiyah ever commanded that Ali be abused on the pulpits.]

    I say: No, by Allaah other than Whom there is none worthy of worship, your words are not correct O ibn Katheer, and not what you depend upon or what you think. As for your saying, ‘uncle of the believers’, then this is not correct at all, and that is because this does not occur in any authentic Sunnah or narration. And (building) upon your saying that Mu`aawiyah is the Uncle of the believers - then Habee bin Akhtab, the Jew, would be the grandfather of the believers, because he is the father of Sayyida Safiyyah, the wife of the Messenger (SAW), and this is not so."

    I ask the reader: what happened to the advice of all those early scholars that order us to keep silent about the Companions? What happened about having good opinion of our predecessors, especially the Companions?

    Enough of a virtue is it for Mu`aawiyah that Allaah chose him to be a writer of His revelation! And it is authentic from the Messenger (SAW) that he prayed for Mu`aawiyah with these words: "O Allaah! Teach Mu`aawiyah the Book, and save him from the fire" [Ahmad (4/127), Ibn Hibbaan (566)]

    And likewise it is authentic from him, (SAW) that he said about this noble companion, "O Allaah make him one who is guided and guiding" ['Silsilah as-Saheehah’ (no.1969)]


    And the Messenger (SAW) said, "None should revile my Companions, for if one amongst you were to spend as much gold as Uhud, it would not amount to as much as one mudd of one of them or half of it." [Muslim]

    And may Allaah have Mercy upon Imaam Abu Zur`ah ar-Raazi who said, "if you see a man speak ill of any of the Companions of the Messenger of Allaah (SAW), then know he is a heretic." [‘al-Kifaayah’ (pg.97) of Khateeb al-Baghdaadee]


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Just who is this Hasan Saqqaf. Can someone put a bio up of him.


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Saqqaf is a Shi'i. One should stay far from him and his works
    Sahabah رضي الله عنهم would cling fast to the Sunnah, on account of it being Sunnah, while we discard the Sunnah, on account of it being (just) Sunnah!

    Formerly "soofi_saheb"


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Isnt he a student of one of the Ghumari Muhadiths and the author of albanis errors, or is that some else.


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Shayba View Post


    Isnt he a student of one of the Ghumari Muhadiths and the author of albanis errors, or is that some else.


    Yes, he is the same. He started of by attacking Wahhabi's, then joined the Shia/Mu'tazili's and spends his time attacking Sunnis and Sahabah .
    Sahabah رضي الله عنهم would cling fast to the Sunnah, on account of it being Sunnah, while we discard the Sunnah, on account of it being (just) Sunnah!

    Formerly "soofi_saheb"


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husain View Post


    Saqqaf is a Shi'i. One should stay far from him and his works


    What exactly is your prerogative with Muawiyah? What are people expected to believe about him as Sunnis?

    How do you reconcile this:

    حدثنا محمد بن موسى الواسطي حدثنا المعلى بن عبد الرحمن حدثنا ابن أبي ذئب عن نافع عن ابن عمر قال قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم الحسن والحسين سيدا شباب أهل الجنة وأبوهما خير منهما * ( صحيح ) _ الصحيحة

    http://arabic.islamicweb.com/books/albani.asp?id=2093

    And this:

    عبد الرزاق عن هشيم عن حصين عن رجل سماه قال أحسبه قال : سعيد بن عبد الرحمن : (أن ابن عباس صلى الغداة فلم يقنت وقال ابن المجالد عن أبيه عن إبراهيم عن علقمة و الأسود قالا : ما قنت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في شيء من الصلوات إلا إذا حارب، فإنه كان يقنت في الصلوات كلهن، ولا قنت أبو بكر ، ولا عمر، ولا عثمان حتى ماتوا، حتى لا قنت علي حتى حارب أهل الشام فكان يقنت في الصلوات كلهن، وكان معاوية يقنت أيضاً فيدعو كل واحد منهما على صاحب

    Or this:

    3019 - أَخْبَرَنَا أَحْمَدُ بْنُ عُثْمَانَ بْنِ حَكِيمٍ الأَوْدِيُّ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا خَالِدُ بْنُ مَخْلَدٍ، قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ صَالِحٍ، عَنْ مَيْسَرَةَ بْنِ حَبِيبٍ، عَنِ الْمِنْهَالِ بْنِ عَمْرٍو، عَنْ سَعِيدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرٍ، قَالَ كُنْتُ مَعَ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ بِعَرَفَاتٍ فَقَالَ مَا لِي لاَ أَسْمَعُ النَّاسَ يُلَبُّونَ قُلْتُ يَخَافُونَ مِنْ مُعَاوِيَةَ ‏.‏ فَخَرَجَ ابْنُ عَبَّاسٍ مِنْ فُسْطَاطِهِ فَقَالَ لَبَّيْكَ اللَّهُمَّ لَبَّيْكَ لَبَّيْكَ فَإِنَّهُمْ قَدْ تَرَكُوا السُّنَّةَ مِنْ بُغْضِ عَلِيٍّ ‏.‏

    http://www.al-eman.net/hadeeth/viewc...?BID=2&CID=110

    And many other clear facts in the books of Ahlul Sunnah that show not only did Muawiyah change the sunnah merely to counter Ali radiAllahu anhu, but of course he attacked and killed his supporters as well. So, what do you believe, honestly? You believe he was wrong, but do not say he is a non-Muslim, right? I don't really get how there can be any other view, but what's up with this attitude towards people who merely cite history?
    Last edited by SA7; 09-05-2009 at 01:30 PM.


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Do you know what caused him to join the Shia, its seems that certains brands of sufis incline towards the shia or at least accomodate some of their doctrines.


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?

    Do you know what caused him to join the Shia, its seems that certains brands of sufis incline towards the shia or at least accomodate some of their doctrines.
    I do not think he meant that he "converted" to any of the Shia sects, such as Twelver Shiaism, Ismaili Shiaism, etc., but that he holds views that are classified in traditional scholarship as "Shiaism".

    Also, I wanted to know about the situation with Ninowy and especially Ghumari, since I have read a number of bad things they have supposedly said about Muawiyah (RAA).

    From what I understand the Sunni position about Muawiyah (RAA) is that he was a Sahabi, who erred in certain matters. However, he remains a Muslim and a Sahabi, and we are not to speak ill of him at all. Those who speak ill of him or call him a disbeliever are to be phisically punished, if not executed by the Islamic State. (If what I have mentioned is wrong, someone please correct me).


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Can u quote exactly what Ninowy and Ghumari have said and in which works?


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    Default Re: How much of this criticism of Saqqaf about his position on Muawiyah is true?



    Here is a good discussion (in Arabic) on Saqqaf, from people who are well-versed in aqidah and who know Saqqaf every well.
    Sahabah رضي الله عنهم would cling fast to the Sunnah, on account of it being Sunnah, while we discard the Sunnah, on account of it being (just) Sunnah!

    Formerly "soofi_saheb"


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