How Christians Seen Jews

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam alaikum,

Often I hear Christians saying Islam teachs hate towards the Jews and is an anti-semtic religion (meaning 'anti-jewish ethnicity'). As a Muslim and an ethnic Jew, I know that this is a complete LIE. I have however experienced some racsim from muslims who at times make horrible and disgusting comments such as 'there should be a second holocaust', 'hitler was a good man', etc. But I know that this is just garbage from ignorant muslims who really don't know anything. I know that Islam is not an ethnocintric religion, and is not a tribal one. Islam teachs that racism and ethnic bigotry is immoral and wrong, and we know that. Christians however do their best to state otherwise, trying to paint us as neo-nazis. So I took some time to study what the traditional Christian view of jews were. This will help so we can better answer such claims that put forward by these Christians, who CLAIM to be loving and kind and the great defenders of the Jewish people.

Here is first the Catholic view, taken from a Catholic web page:

HOW THE POPE TREATED THE JEWS
Pope Innocent III decreed as follows:

"As Cain was a wanderer and an outcast, not to be killed by anyone but marked with the sign of fear on his forehead, so the Jews . . . against whom the voice of the blood of Christ cries out . . . although they are not to be killed they must always be dispersed as wanderers upon the face of the earth."(1)

(1) Migne, Patrologia, CCXV, 1291.

"Although Christian piety tolerates the Jews . . . whose own fault commits them to perpetual slavery . . . and allows them to continue with us (even though the Moors will not tolerate them), they must not be allowed to remain ungrateful to us in such a way as to repay us with contumely for favors and contempt for our familiarity. They are admitted to our familiarity only through our mercy; but they are to us dangerous as the insect in the apple, as the serpent in the breast * * * Since, therefore, they have already begun to gnaw like the rat, and to stink like the serpent, it is to our shame that the fire in our breast which is being eaten into by them, does not consume them * * * As they are reprobate slaves of the Lord, in whose death they evilly conspired (at least by the effect of the deed), let them acknowledge themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ has made free."(2)

(2) Ibid., p.694.

Under this same pope, Innocent III, the Fourth Lateran Council, in 1215, adopted canons Nos. 67-70, decreeing the Roman Catholic attitude towards the Jews3)

(3) cf. Binius, Concilia Generalia, Vol. II, Tom. 3, p.695.

The first is financial, containing protective measures for Christians against the rapacity of Jews as userers. Only Jews were permitted to lend money at interest.

The second decrees that all Jews be distinguished for all time from Christians by color of dress and distinctive badge.

The third forbids Jews to have Christians as nurses, tutors, and domestic servants and forbids Christians to cohabit with Jews and Jewesses. Legal marriage with them was impossible.

The fourth forbids the acceptance of legal testimony of Jews against Christians and orders preference for the testimony of a Christian against a Jew. An order is also added that all in authority in Church and State must watch continually lest converted and baptized Jews continue to practice the rites of their former faith.

A few years later Pope Innocent III reiterates and confirms these edicts of the Lateran Council as follows:

"TO THE KING OF FRANCE THAT HE MUST CRUSH THE INSOLENCE OF THE JEWS RESIDING IN HIS KINGDOM,

"Although it be not displeasing to the Lord, but rather acceptable to Him, that the Jewish Dispersion should live and serve under Christian princes * * * they greatly offend in the sight of God's Divine Majesty who prefer the offspring of the Crucifiers before those who are the heirs of Christ. * * * It has come to our knowledge that in the kingdom of France Jews have so much liberty that, under a species of usury—by which they not only extort interest, but interest from interest—they obtain control of the goods of the churches and the possessions of the Christians. * * * Furthermore, although it was decreed in the Lateran Council that Jews be not permitted to have Christian servants in their homes, either as tutors for their children or for domestic service, or for any reason whatsoever, they still persist in having Christians as servants and nurses, with whom they commit abominations of a kind which it rather becomes you to punish than us to explain. And again, although the same Council laid it down that the testimony of Christians against Jews is to be admitted, even when the former use Jewish witnesses against Christians, and decreed that in a case of this kind anyone who would prefer Jews before Christians is to be condemned as anathema, yet up to the present time things are so carried on in the kingdom of France, that the testimony of Christians against Jews is not believed, whereas Jews are admitted as witnesses against Christians. And at times, when they to whom Jews have loaned money with usury produce Christian witnesses about the facts of payment, THE DEED WHICH THE CHRISTIAN DEBTOR THROUGH NEGLIGENCE INDISCREETLY LEFT WITH THEM IS BELIEVED RATHER THAN THE WITNESSES WHOM THEY BRING FORWARD. On Good Friday also, contrary to the law of old, they walk through the streets and public squares, and meeting Christians who everywhere according to custom go to adore the Crucifix, they deride them and strive to prevent them from this duty of adoration. We warn and exhort Your Serene Majesty in the Lord (adding the remission of your sins) that you force the Jews from their presumption * * * and see to it that due punishment be meted out to all such blasphemers, and that an easy pardon be not given to delinquents!"(4)

(4) Migne, op.cit., CCXV, 501.

In 1567, Pope Pius V revoked the small concession, granted to Jews by Pius IV, enabling them to possess immovable property up to the value of 1,500 gold ducats. He ordered the Jews to sell all their properties to Christians. Two years later he ordered all Jews expelled from the States of the Church:

"By authority of these present Letters, We order that each and every Jew of both sexes in Our Temporal Dominions, and in all the cities, lands, places and baronies subject to them, shall depart completely out of the confines thereof within the space of three months after the present Letters shall have been made public. They shall be despoiled of all their goods, and be prosecuted according to the due process of law. They shall become bondsmen of the Roman Church, and shall be subjected to perpetual servitude. And the said Church shall claim the same right over them as other dominions over their slaves and bondsmen."(5)

(5) Bull. Rom. Pont., VII, 741.

In 1244, Pope Innocent IV also ordered the burning of Jewish books. He exhorted the King of France as follows:

"Our dear Son, the Chancellor of Paris, and the Doctors, before the clergy and people, publicly burned by fire the aforesaid books (The Talmud) with all their appendices. We beg and beseech your Celestial Majesty in the Lord Jesus, that, having begun laudably and piously to prosecute those who perpetuate these detestable excesses, that you continue with due severity. And that you command throughout your whole kingdom that the aforesaid books with all their glossaries, already condemned by the Doctors, be committed to the flames. Firmly prohibiting Jews from having Christians as servants and nurses. * * *(6)

(6) Bull. Rom. Pont., IV, 509.

Pope Gregory IX sent the following to the archbishops of Germany:

"The Jews, who are admitted to our acquaintance only through our mercy, should never forget their yoke of perpetual slavery, which they bear through their own fault. In the Council of Toledo it was decreed that Jews of both sexes, and for all time, should be distinguished from others by their mode of dress. We therefore command that each and every one of you to have all the excesses of the Jews completely repressed, lest they should presume to raise their necks from the yoke of servitude in contumely of the Redeemer; forbidding them to discuss in any way concerning their faith or rites with Christians. In this matter calling to your aid the help of the civil power, inflicting upon Christians, who offer opposition, due ecclesiastical punishment ***"(7)

(7) Bull. Rom. Pont., III, 497.

Pope Eugenius IV, in 1442, issued the following decree:

"We decree and order that from now on, and for all time, Christians shall not eat or drink with Jews; nor admit them to feasts, nor cohabit with them, nor bathe with them. Christians shall not allow Jews to hold civil honors over Christians, or to exercise public offices in the State. Jews cannot be merchants, Tax Collectors, or agents in the buying and selling of the produce and goods of Christians, nor their Procurators, Computers or Lawyers in matrimonial matters, nor Obstetricians; nor can they have association or partnership with Christians. No Christian can leave or bequeath anything in his last Will and Testament to Jews or their congregations. Jews are prohibited from erecting new synagogues. They are obliged to pay annually a tenth part of their goods and holdings. Against them Christians can testify, but the testimony of Jews against Christians in no case is of any value. All and every single Jew, of whatever sex and age, must everywhere wear the distinct dress and known marks by which they can be evidently distinguished from Christians. They cannot live among Christians, but in a certain street, separated and segregated from Christians, and outside which they cannot under any pretext have houses * * *"(8)

(8) Bull. Rom. Pont., V, 67.

In 1555, Pope Paul IV reiterated these restrictions against the Jews and added some new ones. He ordered Jews to pay an annual amount for every synagogue, "even those that have been demolished," and said: "Jews can only engage themselves in the work of street sweepers and rag pickers, and cannot be produce merchants or in things necessary for human use."(9) For contravening these regulations Jews are to be punished "as rebels and criminals laesae majestatis rei (high treason), held as outlaws by all Christian people, by the judgment of our Vicars, Deputies and Magistrates * * *"

(9) Bull. Rom. Pont., VI, 499.

The present attitude of the Roman Catholic Church toward the Jew, as well as that of Mussolini, is of much interest for the latter has revived the age old disabilities of the Church against the Jews. All Jewish literature is forbidden and no book by a foreign Jew can be translated into Italian. No play by a foreign Jew can be produced. No Jew is allowed to broadcast over the radio. Jewish professors are barred from Italian universities and textbooks of 114 Jewish writers have been withdrawn from the schools. Jews have been expelled from all administrative posts. Marriage is again illegal between Jews and Christians. A third anti-Semitic newspaper, Giornalissimo, has joined forces with the already existing anti-Jewish Regime Fascista and Il Tevere.

The Vatican's semiofficial organ, L'Osservatore Romano, of August 13, 1938, in an article headed "The Jews and the Vatican Council" (1870) speaks of the Catholic Church's PROTECTIVE measures for Jews, and then goes on to say:

"But—in order to set things straight—by this it was not intended that Jews should be allowed to abuse the hospitality of Christian countries. Along with these protective ordinances, there existed restrictive and precautionary decrees with regard to them. The civil power was in accord with the Church in this, since, as Delassus says, 'they both had the same interest in preventing the nations from being invaded by the Jewish element and thereby losing control of society.' But if Christians were forbidden to force Jews to embrace the Catholic religion, to disturb their synagogues, their Sabbath and their festivals, the Jews, on the other hand, were forbidden to hold public office, civil or military; and this prohibition extended even to the children of converted Jews. The precautionary decrees concerned the professions, education, and business positions."(10)

(10) cf. Il Messagero, Rome, August 17, 1938; La Gazzetta del Mezzogiorno, Bari, August 18, 1938; Corriere della Sera and others. All have the same caption: "How the Popes Treated the Jews."

[HaajiMahjubi]

One thing to note about the above: It did not matter if the Jew converted and became a Christian Catholic, but rather the discrimination was based due to their ethnicity, not their Judaism.

Also, Catholic believe that dajjal will be a jew (which Christians today deny):

"Christ arose from among the Hebrews, and he (Antichrist) will spring from among the Jews. Christ showed His flesh as a Temple, and raised it up on the third day; and he, too, will raise up again the Temple of stone in Jerusalem." (St. Hippolytus)

This quote is from a treatise by the Catholic writter Yves Dupont titled 'Anit-Christ'. I'll post the whole thing on a seperate thread as I found it interesting to read, and a point that the Catholics believe that Muslims will help Jesus rather than helping the anti-Christ, which shows that traditionally, Christians did not think that Muslims were of the devil or a force helping support the dajjal, as modern day Christians often claim.

The next point will be extracts from the Protestent reformer Martin Luther. He is well known for writting a hatefilled and venomous book of anti-semitism. This is an important point because most of the American Evangelical movements are rooted in Protestenism rather than Catholicism. All of the following hereunder is from the pen of the "pious monk" Martin Luther.

Martin Luther: The Jews and Their Lies
(extracts)

I had made up my mind to write no more either about the Jews or against them. But since I learned that these miserable and accursed people do not cease to lure to themselves even us, that is, the Christians, I have published this little book, so that I might be found among those who opposed such poisonous activities of the Jews who warned the Christians to be on their guard against them. I would not have believed that a Christian could be duped by the Jews into taking their exile and wretchedness upon himself. However, the devil is the god of the world, and wherever God's word is absent he has an easy task, not only with the weak but also with the strong. May God help us. Amen.


***


He did not call them Abraham's children, but a "brood of vipers" [Matt. 3:7]. Oh, that was too insulting for the noble blood and race of Israel, and they declared, "He has a demon' [Matt 11:18]. Our Lord also calls them a "brood of vipers"; furthermore in John 8 [:39,44] he states: "If you were Abraham's children ye would do what Abraham did.... You are of your father the devil. It was intolerable to them to hear that they were not Abraham's but the devil's children, nor can they bear to hear this today.



***


Therefore the blind Jews are truly stupid fools...


***


Now just behold these miserable, blind, and senseless people.


***


...their blindness and arrogance are as solid as an iron mountain.


***


Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...


***


Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in which sheer self*glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and veheming his eyes on them.


***


Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch*thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.


***


However, they have not acquired a perfect mastery of the art of lying; they lie so clumsily and ineptly that anyone who is just a little observant can easily detect it. But for us Christians they stand as a terrifying example of God's wrath.


***


If I had to refute all the other articles of the Jewish faith, I should be obliged to write against them as much and for as long a time as they have used for inventing their lies** that is, longer than two thousand years.

***



...Christ and his word can hardly be recognized because of the great vermin of human ordinances. However, let this suffice for the time being on their lies against doctrine or faith.


***

Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?


***


Alas, it cannot be anything but the terrible wrath of God which permits anyone to sink into such abysmal, devilish, hellish, insane baseness, envy, and arrogance. If I were to avenge myself on the devil himself I should be unable to wish him such evil and misfortune as God's wrath inflicts on the Jews, compelling them to lie and to blaspheme so monstrously, in violation of their own conscience. Anyway, they have their reward for constantly giving God the lie.


***


No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.


***


...but then eject them forever from this country. For, as we have heard, God's anger with them is so intense that gentle mercy will only tend to make them worse and worse, while sharp mercy will reform them but little. Therefore, in any case, away with them!


***


Over and above that we let them get rich on our sweat and blood, while we remain poor and they such the marrow from our bones.


***


I brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule** if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe*conduct, or communion with us.... .With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my

conscience.


***


Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew.


***


However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly


***

Therefore we Christians, in turn, are obliged not to tolerate their wanton and conscious blasphemy.


***


Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death.


***


What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:


First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly * and I myself was unaware of it * will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.


Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.


Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)


Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.


Fifth, I advise that safe*conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).


Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.


Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.


***


But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.


***


Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:


First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.


***


I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated."


***


My essay, I hope, will furnish a Christian (who in any case has no desire to become a Jew) with enough material not only to defend himself against the blind, venomous Jews, but also to become the foe of the Jews' malice, lying, and cursing, and to understand not only that their belief is false but that they are surely possessed by all devils. May Christ, our dear Lord, convert them mercifully and preserve us steadfastly and immovably in the knowledge of him, which is eternal life. Amen.

From Luther's Works, Volume 47: The Christian in Society IV, (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1971). pp 268*293.

[DefendingIslam]

^

Salam Alaykum,

Those with more knowledge than me can clarify the matter better, but I think the biggest problem in bringing up such proofs is that Christianity is a religion without proper basis (i.e. Usool), so their Shariah is made ad hoc.

Thus, Christians today are a combination of Atheists,Secularist Humanists and Christians, which means that they can brush off any previous statement or action of Christianity as being invalid without it having any effect on their belief or practices. For us Muslims on the other hand, the Laws of the Shariah are always binding, and the criticism of the non-Muslims does not have any effect on those matters in our religion which have already been decided.

Additionally, Christians are the most outspoken Takfiris on the planet for their coreligionists, so it is not outside the scope of possibility for them to call as "non-Christian" any pastor, priest, or bishop with whom they disagree.

So part of the problem in bringing up things such as slavery or religious discrimination in Christianity is that for Christians they have absolutely no way of determining whether such practices were right or wrong to begin with in their religion, save for what modern society may say about these topics. For us Muslims though, we are obliged to accept the Islamic view on slavery or rights of women and religious minorities, even though the criticism from modern society may be very strong in this and other issues.

Perhaps we can discuss the appropriateness of bringing up such proofs to Christians, and what would be the manner in which to bring such proofs so that the Christians in question may embrace Islam.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

You are right, not many Christians will say that this is right. They will just brush it off, as they are such a mindset. HOWEVER, I feel that when Christians claim that the source of anti-semitism in the world has stemed from Muslims, these points can be brought to prove that the atmosphere created by main stream Catholic and Protestent views on jews throughout the past 2000 years was the direct cause of the horrible treatment of Jews in Christian Europe throughout its history (during the Black Death, etc) which finally culminated in the Holocaust. While Hitler was NOT a Christian, the majority of Germans, Austrians, Polish, etc, were Christian. IF Christianity taught to be kind to all even the Jews, why would there be widespread hatred and wide spread acceptance of the enslavement and liquidation of the Jews. Listen to survivors testimonies, their own Christian neighbours turned them in. While there were exceptions of Christians showing kindness to Jews, these were exceptions and not the norm. So really one has to ask why? Why were the jews so easily considered vermin and inferior by the masses of lay people, even BEFORE National Socialism existed? It is my claim that CHRISTIANITY was the root cause of this ethnic hatred (remember we are not talking about religious bigotry against another faith, but actual ethnic hate). It is my claim also that Christianity bred the evil atmosphere towards jews that caused directly the holocaust.

Will christians listen or believe it? No the hardcore ones will not and they will brush it away. But for the person who is not extreme and perhaps is looking for the truth, such articles will assist in combating the lies as told about Islam to the Christians that Islam is the hater of Jews, while in reality anti-semetism is and has always been exclusively grounded in Christian teaching.

As far as Christians having no usool, you are right for most modern Protestents and Pentecostals, but the same can not be said about Catholics. They have canon and they also have the apostolic tradition which are basically the decrees of the Popes. The Pope is considered infallable, and every statement that he makes is true, as though God had said it. So these issues COULD definately be taken up with Catholics as to why if their Popes are indeed infalliable and the vicars of Christ, would they instituitionalize hate against an ethnic group? So it could be brought up to them, and they could not just reject it but they would have to have some excuse as to why their popes held such views.

[DefendingIslam]

They have canon and they also have the apostolic tradition which are basically the decrees of the Popes. The Pope is considered infallable, and every statement that he makes is true, as though God had said it.

From what I know, the Catholics consider the Pope infallible only if he is talking about religious matters, and also I think (with the more recent Popes) if he expressly says that such religious veredict is said due to Papal Infalibility.

I think in all of the 20th Century, Papal Infallibility was invoked only once by the Pope in order to vociferously assert a doctrine of the Church. If I am wrong then you may correct me in this respect.

In any case, what I see in a lot of the "Catholic World" is a lot of what I see on the rest of the world, which is cherry-picking of their religion, so much so that you have "Pro-Abortion Catholics", "Gay Catholics", "Pro-Fornication Catholics" and all other sorts of weird people who count themselves as Catholics. I think for these types of people, perhaps the strategy should be different in how to present to them those matters which may lead them to the truth of Islam.

[JerryL]

There are Muslim clerics and institutions on every side of most issues. There are/were cults of personality around Sader, BinLauden, Malcom X, etc. Some of these groups are very large and organized (Sunni-vs-Shea) and could be compared to Catholicism or reformation Christianities; some are around individuals (Pat Robertson or David Korresh) and so comparable to the examples I listed above.

These different groups offer often very different takes on the religion's position (whether we are discussing the Muslim or Christian groups).

What even the pope declared 100 years ago says no more about Christianity than what MalcomX did about Islam.

[DefendingIslam]

^

How can someone compare the status of the Pope in Catholicism (who is the official standard bearer of the Catholic religion) with that of a minimal player such as Bin Laden or Malcolm X (who have/had no formal Islamic learning whatsoever) or a total non-Muslim such as Sadr?

I think the reason why brother HaajiMahjubi quoted the Pope is exactly because he is the main and most important figurehead of the Catholic religion, and not simply because the media portrays him as a Catholic spokesman. The three examples mentioned by JerryL cannot ever be seen in the same light, since they were not and are not important or even marginal figureheads as fas as traditional learning is concerned.

[HaajiMahjubi]

Salaam,

Lets get it straight. Bin Laden is nobody to 99% of Muslims and his views on Islam aside from his ideas about jihad are unknown to 99% of the muslims, even the ones who might think he is some good guy or something. It is completely un important to Islam, he is not even a scholar. Muqatada as-Sadr is a radical shia who is rejected by most shia, and is considered not even muslim by sunni muslims, who make up 80% of all muslims on the face of the earth.

The Pope is the spiritual and political leader of the largest Christian sect that has ever existed on earth. Out of the world's Christian groups, Catholics make up about half, 1 BILLION people. The Pope is considered by Catholics to be

A) infalliable -

"The Pope cannot make a mistake." Pope Gregory VII, (quoted by The Benedictine Network in a listing of notable items by the various popes throughout history).

“The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as Supreme Pastor and teacher of all the faithful--who confirms his brethren in the faith--he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals....The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, ‘they exercise the supreme Magisterium,’ above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magistrium proposes a doctrine ‘for belief as being divinely revealed,’ and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions ‘must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.’ This infallibility extends as far as the doposit of divine revelation itself.” Catechism of the Catholic Church, #891, 1994 edition.

B) God on earth

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".

"We may according to the fullness of our power, dispose of the law and dispense above the law. Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...Wherefore, no marvel, if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea with the precepts of Christ." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

"Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).

C) the pope can add to and take away from the Bible as he is superior to it -

"We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.

"We confess that whatever new thing the Pope ordains, rather it be in Scriptures or not in Scripture, and whatever he commands is true, divine and salvific; and therefore ought to be held by Lay People in greater esteem than the living God." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article IV, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.

The Pope can in KNOW WAY be compared to somebody like 'Malcom X' or 'Bin Laden' or 'as-Sadr'. To do so is to plainly state ones complete ignorance of Islam and the Catholic religion.

[JerryL]

How can someone compare the status of the Pope in Catholicism (who is the official standard bearer of the Catholic religion) with that of a minimal player such as Bin Laden or Malcolm X (who have/had no formal Islamic learning whatsoever) or a total non-Muslim such as Sadr?

Did someone do that? I'm pretty sure I compared the Catholic/Prodestent split to Sunni/Shea, and BinLauden/MalcomX to Pat Robertson/David Korresh.

Perhaps you should re-read what I said and consider your reason for accusations.

I think the reason why brother HaajiMahjubi quoted the Pope is exactly because he is the main and most important figurehead of the Catholic religion, and not simply because the media portrays him as a Catholic spokesman. The three examples mentioned by JerryL cannot ever be seen in the same light, since they were not and are not important or even marginal figureheads as fas as traditional learning is concerned.

Given the number of Catholics who use birth-control I disagree. The only difference between the Pope and Pat Robertson is scale.

[JerryL]

The Pope can in KNOW WAY be compared to somebody like 'Malcom X' or 'Bin Laden' or 'as-Sadr'. To do so is to plainly state ones complete ignorance of Islam and the Catholic religion.

Salam,

It's interesting to me that in your complaint you mentioned the Muslim individuals but not the Christian ones (David Korresh and Pat Robertson). Much like the previous poster, you also dismissed the actual comparison of sects (Sunni/Shea) which are what I directly compared to Christian sects (Catholic/Protestant).

It is my understanding that such beliefs as inerrancy are not attributed to the leaders of those sects; though I'm not sure all of their followers keep that in mind; but it's equally false to believe that all Catholics follow the Pope's commands. If they did, there wouldn't be non-Catholic churches.