Alcohol & Whey again

[Colonel_Hardstone]

Assalamoalikum,

is it allowed to use alcohol swab?

JazakAllah khair

wassalamoalaikum

W-Salam,

Alcohol Swabs contain mostly Isoprophyl Alcohol and it evaporates very quickly.

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/perfalc.htm

...To summarise, it would be permitted to use the various types of perfumes, deodorants and creams that contain alcohol due to the fact that the alcohol contained in them is from other than grapes, dates and barley or it is a synthetic alcohol (formulated from chemical substances) and not the khamr (wine) that is absolutely impermissible and filthy.

However, it is more religiously precautionary to avoid using such perfumes and deodorants, whenever reasonably possible, because of the differences of opinion regarding it...

[rasheedahmed]

Assalam O Alaikum Khan Saheb

"From: By Mufti Muhmmad Ibn Adam

Q I was wondering if alcohol in detergents and creams etc. is permissible to use.

In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
In principle, it should be remembered that, alcohol extracted from grapes, dates and barley is decisively unlawful (haram), both its oral intake as well as application, for it is considered to be impure (najis). This type of alcohol is known as Khamr (wine), and it will be unlawful to even consume one drop of such alcohol according to all the classical scholars."

I am sorry Khan Saheb I can not accept Moulna Mufti Adama's Fatwa because Moulana saheb did not consider these:

Book: Drinks (74)
1. The statement of Allah (S.T): "Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al-Ansab and Al-Azlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitan's (satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful..." (V.5:90)
Hadith(s): [5575 ... 5578(from www.ahadith.net)

Chapter 7: EVERY INTOXICANT IS KHAMR AND EVERY KHAMR IS FORBIDDEN

Book 023, Number 4956:
'A'isha reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he said: Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.( From Sahih Muslim, http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexahadith.html)

Why Ulema from UK and South Africa ignore the above Hadith. Why they consider alcohol obtained from other than grape, date, barley as Halal and promote alcohol in perfumes, deodorants and creams as Halal. I never heard above statement from any Mufti in USA. First of all wine is not a alcohol, the alcohol content in wine is 7% or more.

Honestly I want any Mufti Sahab to explain to Muslims that why alcohol from other than grape, date, barley is not a intoxicant. Let take 100% alcohol from corn and dilute it with water to make a drink containing 7% alcohol and consider it as drink because you can not drink 100% corn alcohol. Ask a non Muslim to drink in such amount that he became intoxicated. Are those ulema think this corn alcohol drink is Halal. When you see by consuming some large amount that person became intoxicated. Then add 0.5 to 2% a small quantity of 7% corn alcohol drink and add to a perfume which do not contain any alcohol. I am asking those ulema whether the small amount of 7% corn alcohol drink added to alchol free perfumes and large amount of 7% corn alcohol drink is still Halal by ignoring tthat the non Muslim person was intoxicated and also the Hadith that small amount or large amount of Khamr both are Haram.

I already provided the scientific work about both chemistry of sugar and alcohol in the topic "Are Sunni Forum's Moderators biased in their views?" thread.

Sugar from grape and corn has the same formula and both physically and chemically same. Similarly alcohol from grape and corn is similar physically and chemically. I would like to challenge any scientist in the world to show me scientifically that the alcohol from grape is different from alcohol from corn.


Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products USA
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com

[abuhajira]

I am sorry Khan Saheb I can not accept Moulna Mufti Adama's Fatwa because Moulana saheb did not consider these:

Br. Rasheed,

I am sorry, khansahab is no longer on the forum. So I can inshallah answer in his behalf.

I am sorry Khan Saheb I can not accept Moulna Mufti Adama's Fatwa because Moulana saheb did not consider these:

Book: Drinks (74)
1. The statement of Allah (S.T): "Intoxicants (all kinds of alcoholic drinks), gambling, Al-Ansab and Al-Azlam (arrows for seeking luck or decision) are an abomination of Shaitan's (satan) handiwork. So avoid (strictly all) that (abomination) in order that you may be successful..." (V.5:90)
Hadith(s): [5575 ... 5578(from www.ahadith.net)

Chapter 7: EVERY INTOXICANT IS KHAMR AND EVERY KHAMR IS FORBIDDEN

Book 023, Number 4956:
'A'isha reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he said: Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.( From Sahih Muslim, http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexahadith.html)

In fact Mufti Ibn Adam did consider those points as well please read his fatwa before passing such comment. He says

However, the other three schools of thought, i.e. Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali and also Imam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Shaybani (Allah have mercy on him) from the Hanafi school are of the view that all types of beverages are prohibited whether less or more, and whether consumed to the level of intoxication or otherwise. They base their argument on the following two Hadiths:

Sayyiduna Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Every intoxicant is Khamr and every intoxicant is Unlawful (haram)…” (Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, No. 3671, Sunan Timidhi and others)

Sayyiduna Jabir ibn Abd Allah (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Whatever intoxicates in large quantities, then a small quantity of it is also forbidden.” (Sunan Abu Dawud, no. 3673, Sunan al-Tirmidhi, Sunan al-Nasa’i and others)

Thus, according two these scholars, all forms of alcohol beverages will be considered unlawful (haram) and impure (najis). Once it is established that a given beverage intoxicates, it will be unlawful to consume even a small serving of that beverage.

The late Hanafi scholars also gave Fatwa on this position of the student of Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan due to widespread Fitna.

Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“Imam Muhammad considered the various beverages, such as those made from honey, fig, etc to be categorically unlawful (haram), whether it is less in quantity or more, and the Fatwa is given on his position.”

Please not the above Maulana you have chosen to reject is a "Mufti" Then note what you write below...

Why Ulema from UK and South Africa ignore the above Hadith. Why they consider alcohol obtained from other than grape, date, barley as Halal and promote alcohol in perfumes, deodorants and creams as Halal. I never heard above statement from any Mufti in USA. First of all wine is not a alcohol, the alcohol content in wine is 7% or more.

Now some points to keep in mind next time.

1. We have discussed the issue of Alcohol and the stance of Ulama on it (even from Imam Saheb and Sahibein r.am view) elsewhere. Please See Here Also check this thread for yet another detailed discourse with you on the issue.
2. You also have to be honest that it is not only the S.A Ulama who have given a fatwa contrary to your held view. Mufti Ibn Adam in in UK, Mufti Sacha is in UK, Mufti Taqi is in Pakistan. Mufti Hussain had mentioned to you that this is the academic stance of Deobandi Ulama too. Even Mufti Nawalur Rehman (US) has mentioned at places that the abstinance from using such synthetic alcohol is by way of caution, and that there are instances these become permissible. Yet you choose to shrug all these shawahid away in view of your own opinion.


Also note that HMC of Canada mentions on their website

That, alcohol used in the cooking process, medicines or as a preservative is permissible i.e. as long as it is not consumed for intoxication.

INCORRECT: There are detailed guidelines on what is permissible and what is not with respect to alcohol in food or medicine. A proper ruling should be sought on a case by case basis from the scholars.

They sourced SANHA for this. Hereunder is the SANHA stance on the issue.

Q: Plz tell me is there any Halaal mouth wash (a solution for bad breathing) in south african market,as most of them contain Alcohol

Answer

Jazâkumullâh Khairan for your query and for the opportunity to be of service to you. We advise as follows:

Most mouthwashes contain ethyl alcohol. Where this is prescribed and administered for dental infections, oral care, etc. it would be condoned as it is not ingested.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
http://www.sanha.org.za/faq_view.php...-11%2010:35:09

and

Q: perfumes such as beautiful or plesures or channel no 5 ->if applied in the morning after ghusul, wudhu made again before next salaah, but clothing and some skin areas still have fragrance on it, is salaah with that wudhu valid? or must the skin areas be washed off where fragrance was applied & the clothing changed or is a complete body bath needed? The reasons for my concern are the ff: If these perfumes contain alcohol,then to get rid off the najaasat you will need to make ghusul. Perfume applied only onto clothing and not the skin, is that ok? please advice me.

Answer

Jazâkumullâh Khairan for your query and for the opportunity to be of service to you. We advise as follows:

The alcohols used in creams / cosmetics etc. are denatured and furthermore are NOT from the najis (napaak and impure) 'khamr-asli' category. Thus the use of such perfumes, colognes etc is permissible.
http://www.sanha.org.za/faq_view.php...-17%2009:02:07

Here is what IFANCA says on their website:

When we talk about alcohol in the Halal industry, it is means either ethanol or ethyl alcohol. It is permissible to use alcohol for extracting flavors or dissolving them. However, the amount of alcohol should be reduced to less than 0.5% in the final flavoring product. Certain countries or customers require lower allowances or even absence of alcohol for products brought into their countries. Some countries do not permit fusel oil derivatives. Note that vinegar, although a by-product or derivative of alcohol, is permitted in Islam. However, it is prudent to avoid the words "wine vinegar" in the label statements in order not to create confusion. IFANCA has consulted various Islamic scholars to check this critical issue about vanilla flavorings as it may contain alcohol. The word Khamr is traditionally used for fermented beverages which are intoxicants. Alcohol used in the manufacture of vanilla flavor is ethanol from grain or synthetic sources and never from alcoholic drinks or Khamr sources (Khattak, 2004)

The same Haider Khattak mentions again Here

Cetyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Myristyl Alcohol and Behenyl Alcohol are white, waxy solids, not related to ethyl alcohol. Cetyl Alcohol and Stearyl Alcohol are two major components of Cetearyl Alcohol. These ingredients are all fatty alcohols and occur naturally in small quantities in plants and animals. They are commonly used in cosmetics and personal care products, especially in skin lotions and creams.

Dimethicone and Methicone, both silicone based polymers, are also considered halal, and used as antifoaming agents or skin conditioning agents.

Ethyl alcohol or common alcohol, when used in products that are not food, beverages or oral hygiene products, in most countries including the United States, is denatured alcohol. This means that a small amount of denaturant is added to the alcohol to make it taste bad. Alcohol Denat. is the general name used for denatured alcohol. Specific denatured alcohols that are permitted for use in cosmetics and personal care products include Specially Denatured (SD) Alcohol. Alcohol and Alcohol Denat. are used in many products including makeup, lotions, fragrance, shaving products, oral care, skin and hair care products.

Isopropyl Alcohol is widely used in cosmetic and personal care products and can be found in nail, hair and skin care products including aftershave lotions, bath products, eye makeup and cleansing products.

All the above products with names ending in alcohol are not drinkable and orally consumable products. They have no relation to khamr the common intoxicating alcoholic drinks. Hence they are halal for use in skin care products.

My point was not to use IFANCA or SANHA as a Mufti Source (Although SANHA is run by mufties).. rather to show that this understanding isnt UK or S.African... As for the IFANCA I do remember they mentioned in an article of the Halal Digest that cooking with beer will make it haram (thus supporting your stance that all form of alcohol are haram), however in the same article they also mentioned that when "added or any natural" ethanol as an ingredient is acceptable when they are less than 0.1%. So the only reconciliation is that they are using the cautionary measure when it comes to beer etc. BUT, they might as well be opting for another opinion from madhahib. Allahu Alam.
_______

Honestly I want any Mufti Sahab to explain to Muslims that why alcohol from other than grape, date, barley is not a intoxicant.

3. Please re-read those post, perhaps the time has made you forget the Fiqhi understanding of the issue. There is a difference according to hanafi fuqaha between the terms "Alcohol" and "Khamr". I remember bright as sun day that I had given you a complete breakdown of this, Yet you choose to say that sun is not shining.

Let take 100% alcohol from corn and dilute it with water to make a drink containing 7% alcohol and consider it as drink because you can not drink 100% corn alcohol. Ask a non Muslim to drink in such amount that he became intoxicated. Are those ulema think this corn alcohol drink is Halal. When you see by consuming some large amount that person became intoxicated. Then add 0.5 to 2% a small quantity of 7% corn alcohol drink and add to a perfume which do not contain any alcohol.

Again, just like it is of prime importance to understand the terminologies of a science before engaging in a full study, you have to first grasp the terms utilized in this discussion. I had highlighted and explained them to you. It would be dishonest of you to disregard that and act as though absolutely nothing has been discussed.

Regarding the issue of small quantity and large quantity, I had discussed it here

I am asking those ulema whether the small amount of 7% corn alcohol drink added to alchol free perfumes and large amount of 7% corn alcohol drink is still Halal by ignoring tthat the non Muslim person was intoxicated and also the Hadith that small amount or large amount of Khamr both are Haram.

Again.and again.. please re read on the difference in khamr and alcohol. that small quantity of khamr will indeed be haram. But that much of non khamar alcohol that does not intoxicate cannot be termed haram, since the nass does not talk about that.

And to answer you again here..(keeping in mind all below is based on non-khamr)

a. You take a 100% Alcohol and dilute it into a 7% alcoholic.
b. Lets say now that it took your nonmuslim friend took 2 liter of this 7% alcohol to get intoxicated. So according to us now, consumption of less than 2 lit. will be permissible PROVIDED THESE CONDITIONS ARE MET :

(a) it is not used as an intoxicant;
(b) it is not used as intoxicants as used (i.e. for alcoholic consumption, even a little);
(c) it is not used in an amount that intoxicates;
(d) it is not used in vain (lahw).
according to Shaykh Faraz Rabbani

1. It is not used as an intoxicant or to an amount which intoxicates
2. It is not used in vain
Askimam.org

3. Now (from your example) you take 2% of this 2 lit. and add to a perfume. but before that lets understand the scenario. The ml of alcohol in this 2 lit. is 140 ml. Which means it takes 140 ml of pure alcohol in 2 lit solution to render intoxication.

Now you took a 2% solution of this 2lit. that is 40 ml drink with 2.8 ml of pure alcohol. So while it required 140 ml of pure alcohol to render intoxication, you suggest that even this 2.8 ml of pure alcohol will also render intoxication.

This is your fallacy. Notice that this is according to the hanafi madhab, where we do not regard this 7% drink as khamr. Even at the level of 2 lit. It will become khamr hukmi (by way of ruling) and not in the actual self. What does this mean? It means that yes, 2 lit. consumption of that drink will be haram for him because that intoxicates, while lesser than that does not intoxicate and thus technically it will remain permissible. The same issue is here, once you make a fraction from the 2 lit. automatically the hurmat falls off since it is not the level of intoxication.

The daleel was given to you in the action of Sayiduna Umar. r.a finding such strong nabeez, and then he diluted it with water to drink it.

4. The only reply you have now is the hadeeth which says That which intoxicates in large quantity is also haram in smaller quantity.

However if you had actually read through our discussion properly you would have understood that Hanafiya hold that true for the khamr haqeeqi and not khamr hukmi. Otherwise are you pointing a finger at Sayiduna Umar r.a for drinking which is haram?! You didnt answer this last time in our discussion, perhaps you have found a reply for this now!

I already provided the scientific work about both chemistry of sugar and alcohol in the topic "Are Sunni Forum's Moderators biased in their views?" thread.

Alhamdulillah I have received it. and in all honesty, it is not a "research" but a "brief". In anycase though, the information you have provided (most of it if not all) was already known to the Ulama centuries before. The difference of Imam Muhammad and the Sheikhein is based on the very information of both having the quality of intoxication.

5. All your issues were dealt and explained in detail. Any reader wishing to read into the detailed understanding of the issue should read those two posts in entirety to get the full idea.

The links are provided again hereunder :

Use of Ethyl Alcohol in Food....
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...thetic+alcohol

Does (Do) Hanafis allow Alcohol?
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33870

[abuhajira]

brother abuhajira.

All praises to Allah subhanu wa ta'ala, I have been blessed with having had the opportunity of studying the issue of alcohol in the Hanafi madhab and the proofs and reasoning that the classical scholars of the madhab present. Why is it that in these fatwas and in your own posts the reasoning of the classical scholars has not been presented? This fatwa from the mufti seems to explain nothing, especially the brother's concerns about the hadiths that seem to unconditionally ban any intoxicant, regardless of the substance. I am not a Hanafi, but I have been blessed with coming into contact with the books of the madhab and am familiar with this issue. Nothing that you have posted or that is present in the fatwa remotely mirrors the rational and text-based proofs of the classical scholars that explain the Hanafi reasoning for the position that it is only "khamr" that is completely forbidden to consume, and what "khamr" constitutes. SubhanAllah even some of the information in this fatwa is not correct, and moreover it seems to not explain anything.

Imam Tahawi covers this all in great detail. Alhmdulillah I do not mean to seem arrogant, I wish to explain the issue to people inshaAllah, and I have no power or strength except from Allah subhanu wa ta'ala and I have only learned and come into contact with the material because of his mercy. May Allah forgive me, but why the lack of presenting the reasoning and proof from the classical scholars?

Wa assalaamu aleykum.

Could you please point out details where wrong information has been relayed. I would not mind re checking the posts..

edit : I see you have deleted your post. even then could you please point out the mistakes

[rasheedahmed]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Abuhijra

I forgot Moulna Mufti Nawalur Rehman in Chicago mentioned the same thing in his Sharia Board website. But very few poeple follow him on that topic.

Brother your are saying real research conducted and published in professional books and magazines as "Brief". I am sorry you do not understand scientific research. Do not be narrow minded to protect your fiqah, gave a honest response. A common Muslim think alcohol is Haram, so he does not follow a fiqah which is limited to certain Muslims and it is not universal even among Hanafi.

The above statement of unknown non Hanafi brother and even ulema of Hanafi fiqha do not promote and say that alcohol obtained from corn is Halal except the deobandi ulema. So the majority of Muslims except Muslim with deobandi school of fiqah consider alcohol regardless of source as Haram. This is bottom line.

The Deobandi ulema never provided any scientific evidence that alcohol from grape is different compare to alcohol from corn and corn alcohol is Halal and allow their follwers to consume it in the form of flavors in food products and in the fragrance of perfumes.

Why in the world the alcohol free atar(sorry about misspelling) is the only one sold in all Arab countries including Saudi Arabia. Why on thier label it says alcohol free. I do not see any comment from Deovbandi ulema about it. Why not Deobandi Ulema follow those countries's ulema

Alcohol was discovered by a Arab Muslim, there are thousands of Muslim Arabs scientists who contributed a lot of things to science.

The bottom line is that this Deobandi fiqah is limited to only those Muslims who follow it and I doubt it, even many Muslisms who follow Deobandi fiqah stay away from using the perfumes with alcohol and food products made with corn alcohol because they know the Hadith that the furture Muslims will consume alcohol and give a different name. I believe that is what these Deobandi ulema are doing. I undertand where they are coming from, because of Imam Hajrat Abu Hanifa RA's fatwa but his own student Imam Yousuf RA has different opinion. The best way for them to advice Muslims to stay away from alcohol from any source rather than promoting alcohol from corn. This is not good for Muslim Ulema. Although my family follows Hanafi majhab for generation to generation but I do not follow that fiqah because I fear Allah and I also want to stay away from this fiqah which is not universally accepted by all Muslims. So why follow this fiqah.

You can bring lot of things to support the above fiqah but a comman Muslim even Hanafi will not accept this fiqah. This is my honest opionion brother. Muslims are not looking for shortcut or cutting the corners because they believe alcohol is Haram period. You know why I am fighting against this fiqah because I do not Muslims to consume Haram food products and put Haram perfumes on their bodies.

Waslam

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products USA
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com

[Bin Abd Al-Matin]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Abuhijra

I forgot Moulna Mufti Nawalur Rehman in Chicago mentioned the same thing in his Sharia Board website. But very few poeple follow him on that topic.

Brother your are saying real research conducted and published in professional books and magazines as "Brief". I am sorry you do not understand scientific research. Do not be narrow minded to protect your fiqah, gave a honest response. A common Muslim think alcohol is Haram, so he does not follow a fiqah which is limited to certain Muslims and it is not universal even among Hanafi.

The above statement of unknown non Hanafi brother and even ulema of Hanafi fiqha do not promote and say that alcohol obtained from corn is Halal except the deobandi ulema. So the majority of Muslims except Muslim with deobandi school of fiqah consider alcohol regardless of source as Haram. This is bottom line.

The Deobandi ulema never provided any scientific evidence that alcohol from grape is different compare to alcohol from corn and corn alcohol is Halal and allow their follwers to consume it in the form of flavors in food products and in the fragrance of perfumes.

Why in the world the alcohol free atar(sorry about misspelling) is the only one sold in all Arab countries including Saudi Arabia. Why on thier label it says alcohol free. I do not see any comment from Deovbandi ulema about it. Why not Deobandi Ulema follow those countries's ulema

Alcohol was discovered by a Arab Muslim, there are thousands of Muslim Arabs scientists who contributed a lot of things to science.

The bottom line is that this Deobandi fiqah is limited to only those Muslims who follow it and I doubt it, even many Muslisms who follow Deobandi fiqah stay away from using the perfumes with alcohol and food products made with corn alcohol because they know the Hadith that the furture Muslims will consume alcohol and give a different name. I believe that is what these Deobandi ulema are doing. I undertand where they are coming from, because of Imam Hajrat Abu Hanifa RA's fatwa but his own student Imam Yousuf RA has different opinion. The best way for them to advice Muslims to stay away from alcohol from any source rather than promoting alcohol from corn. This is not good for Muslim Ulema. Although my family follows Hanafi majhab for generation to generation but I do not follow that fiqah because I fear Allah and I also want to stay away from this fiqah which is not universally accepted by all Muslims. So why follow this fiqah.

You can bring lot of things to support the above fiqah but a comman Muslim even Hanafi will not accept this fiqah. This is my honest opionion brother. Muslims are not looking for shortcut or cutting the corners because they believe alcohol is Haram period. You know why I am fighting against this fiqah because I do not Muslims to consume Haram food products and put Haram perfumes on their bodies.

Waslam

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products USA
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com

I have followed this discussion with you (but not posted) on so many occasions and you repeat the same arguments constantly.

A bit of advice brother. I'm sorry to say that you are in no position to say what is good or not good from a fiqhi point of view as to what is correct in the shari'a. You are not qualified for that position- you have not studied the shari'a as you admitted yourself. You have used the same arguments that the alcohol is the same scientfically, so both should be haram. The counter-arguments to this have been presented so many times but either you haven't grasped what is being said or maybe you are to be blamed for the very accusations that you are throwing against Sidi Abu Hajira, who follows the 'ulema on this forum and the thousands of muftis who adhere to the fatawa of Imam Abu Hanifa (rh). That is when you accuse him thus:

am sorry you do not understand scientific research. Do not be narrow minded to protect your fiqah, gave a honest response. A common Muslim think alcohol is Haram, so he does not follow a fiqah which is limited to certain Muslims and it is not universal even among Hanafi.

How dare you make assumptions and accuse him of being narrow-minded. Perhaps you should reflect on your own attitude- who really is being narrow-minded here? So many times you have posted on this same topic and it is you who has initiated the fiqhi discussions surrounding this topic, just as in this very thread, while others on this forum have simply responded to you.

You mentioned ''You can bring lot of things to support the above fiqah but a comman Muslim even Hanafi will not accept this fiqah.'' Well, you are wrong there brother, I am a common Muslim, very unknowledgeable, but I rely on the 'ulema and I accept the fatawa of the many muftis who have given the fatawa that has very clearly and eloquently presented with ample and strong evidence by brother Abu Hajira.

I am sorry if I sound harsh, but I think you went too far in your last comment. You are a better Muslim than me, I am a very poor Muslim. And may Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) forgive me for my mistakes and errors. Ameen.

[abuhajira]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Abuhijra

The Deobandi ulema never provided any scientific evidence that alcohol from grape is different compare to alcohol from corn and corn alcohol is Halal and allow their follwers to consume it in the form of flavors in food products and in the fragrance of perfumes.

Neither did you provide any evidence that ethyl alcohol produced in normal dough is any different than the one made from the hops fermentation! However, the deobandi ulama, ALL OF HANAFI ULAMA (except from Imam Muhammad r.a) do differenciate between khamr asli and khamr hukmi, even barelwi ulama, even Imam Abu Yusuf r.a. It is only you who untill now were posing to be a hanafi and yet not accepting this understanding of your Aimma. Atleast you have clarified that you are not following any madhab.

Why in the world the alcohol free atar(sorry about misspelling) is the only one sold in all Arab countries including Saudi Arabia. Why on thier label it says alcohol free. I do not see any comment from Deovbandi ulema about it. Why not Deobandi Ulema follow those countries's ulema

Arab Ulama are not Hanafi per se, and do not follow hanafi ruling. Sunnipath is an Arab Hanafi website, and they have these three fatwas on the issue

Using Unlawful Medication
Medication with methyl alcohol, can it be consumed?
Synthetic Alcohol is Not Najis

The Deobandi Ulama did not force them to opt for Deobandi Faqahat. Please note the wording of Sh. Faraz Rabbani

This was Mufti Mahmoud Ashraf Usmani's explanation, and it is supported by many fatwas in the great Indian Hanafi fatwa references of the 20th Century. This is the position of Imam Abu Hanifa himself. Later scholars said that the fatwa was on the position of Imam Muhammad ibn al-Hasan al-Shaybani, Abu Hanifa's student, that all alcohol is najis and haram, even in small quantities, because of widespread fitna. In our times, because of the widespread use of alcohol in all sorts of things, it has become very difficult to avoid. This is why great Hanafis of our times gave the abovementioned fatwa.

The bottom line is that this Deobandi fiqah is limited to only those Muslims who follow it and I doubt it, even many Muslisms who follow Deobandi fiqah stay away from using the perfumes with alcohol and food products made with corn alcohol because they know the Hadith that the furture Muslims will consume alcohol and give a different name. I believe that is what these Deobandi ulema are doing.

SubhanAllah Dr. Saheb, to save your face you are willing to accuse Ulama of deen of making mockery of deen. If you believe this, then please do not be alarmed if you get banned on this forum. People who have levelled that accusation against reputable ulama have shared that fate.

I undertand where they are coming from, because of Imam Hajrat Abu Hanifa RA's fatwa but his own student Imam Yousuf RA has different opinion.

And you are issuing an islamic verdict of this mas'ala. SubhanAllah....Arey Daktar Uncle... It was Imam Muhammad r.a who has a different opinion. Imam Abu Yusuf r.a holds the same opinion as Imam Saheb!

Although my family follows Hanafi majhab for generation to generation but I do not follow that fiqah because I fear Allah and I also want to stay away from this fiqah which is not universally accepted by all Muslims. So why follow this fiqah.

Jazak Allah for leting us know. Could you then kindly remove the "Hanafi" tag from under your profile.

You can bring lot of things to support the above fiqah but a comman Muslim even Hanafi will not accept this fiqah. This is my honest opionion brother. Muslims are not looking for shortcut or cutting the corners because they believe alcohol is Haram period. You know why I am fighting against this fiqah because I do not Muslims to consume Haram food products and put Haram perfumes on their bodies.

No Uncle, it is becoming apparent that it is only to save your own repute. You are very much convinced that you do not have an actual case when it comes to Fiqh of these Halal and Haram. So you have no choice but to stick to your claim, with NO BASIS from your own side.

You know uncle I give you a solution. Claim that you are actually a Shafii, then your opinion will be same as what your repute demands. Allah help you in your guidance. Ameen

[rasheedahmed]

Assalam O Alaikum Moulana Janab Mufti Bin Abd Al-Matin Saheb,

Yes, you are sound like harsh Mufti saheb, even Imam Hajrat Abu Yousuf RA disagree with Imam Abu Hanifa RA his teacher but he is patiant and do not show any harsh words. I am sorry to say with full respects of all your ulema that I am never goning to agree their fatwas.

Here is one Hadith upon which I recommend all Muslims not consume any food products made with alcohol conatining flavors regardles the source of alcohol:

Chapter 7: EVERY INTOXICANT IS KHAMR AND EVERY KHAMR IS FORBIDDEN
Book 023, Number 4956:
'A'isha RA reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he PBUH said: Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.( From Sahih Muslim, http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexahadith.html)

A question for you Moulana whether a common Muslim like me should follow this hadith or the fatwa given by your ulema. Just tell us. Also tell us who is most poist Hajrat Bibi A'isha Siddiqa RA or your ulema. Please Keep aside the detail about fiqah things because common innocent Muslims are not educated in detail about fiqah.

Please tell us should we follow Hajrat Bibi Aisha Siddiqa RA's reporting or fatwa from your ulema. I am not sure about the number but there were revelations of 17Ayats of Quran in regards to Hajrat Bibi Aiasha RA and It shows how she RA is poise than other present Muslims. Muslims until Qiyama are appreciated for the blessing of Tayemum because of her and his father Hajrat Abo Baker Siddiq RA. She RA was reporting a very good thing what she heard from our Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)for Muslims not to consume any intoxicant because it is Haram. On the other hand your ulema telling Muslims it is ok to consume foods made with alcohol containing flavor where the alcohol is from other than grape, date and barley. Asking Muslims to use perfumes made from same type of alcohol. My question is why, what bennefit we innocent common Muslims get by following the fatwa of your ulema regarding those two things. Your ulema should give fatwas so that Muslims should protect themself from hell fire after qiyama.

Please tell me what wrong about above hadith, it is a sahi hadith and it is not a week hadith. Then why should not we follow it. Our garnd parents were never expose to current western food products but they survived. Why we have to consume western food products and soft drink containing alcohol obtained other than grape, date and barley. Those food companies have choices to avoid use of alcohol but they do not want and there are thousands of Halal food products without alcohol listed on our websites.

The other part is to reply to your comments, I am not claiming that I am a alim but without fiqah knowledge I can recommend a just asimple thing that Muslims not consume those alcohol containing food product. Did I advice them any thing wrong. I am not going to use any fiqah to ask Muslims to avoid eating alcohol containing food products. Is it wrong?. Shall a Muslim has to study fiqah or approach a mufti before saying to other Muslim to do simple good things. This what I got from your reply Moulana. I do not agree with counter arguments presented to me by your ulema beacuse I am recommending good thing like eating western food products without pork and alcohol. On the otherhand your ulema are recommending to consume western food products containing alcohol. Whatever your fiqah arguments it is not saving Muslims eating Haram food products. I understand the fiqah of Hajrat Abu Hanifa but there are alternate food products available in supermarkets for Muslims so that they should not go in deep in fiqah. Please visit our US based website and there many categories of food products and under those categories there are many Halal food products without alcohol available to Muslims to consume.

This is from our website's Feedback:

"I just wanted to say jazakallahu khair for all the hard work in protecting the muslim ummah from consuming haraam products! You have no idea how much the community appreciates the MCG."

Moulana Mufti Saheb that is I am fighting for to protect Muslim Ummah and Insha Allah I will never give up my honest fight against those alcohol containing food products no matter what is the source and what is is fiqah say.

I am sorry Moulana, I am honestly disagree with you and your ulema regarding consuming the alcohol containing food products. Mufti saheb your ulema will not conveience other ulema of other majhab even our own Hanafi ulema.

Any how I already explained my views and Inshallah I will write again against recommendation of your ulema that alcohol from other than garpe, date, barley is Halal.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products USA
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com

[Bin Abd Al-Matin]

Assalam O Alaikum Moulana Janab Mufti Bin Abd Al-Matin Saheb,

Yes, you are sound like harsh Mufti saheb, even Imam Hajrat Abu Yousuf RA disagree with Imam Abu Hanifa RA his teacher but he is patiant and do not show any harsh words. I am sorry to say with full respects of all your ulema that I am never goning to agree their fatwas.

Here is one Hadith upon which I recommend all Muslims not consume any food products made with alcohol conatining flavors regardles the source of alcohol:

Chapter 7: EVERY INTOXICANT IS KHAMR AND EVERY KHAMR IS FORBIDDEN
Book 023, Number 4956:
'A'isha RA reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) was asked about Bit, whereupon he PBUH said: Every drink that causes intoxication is forbidden.( From Sahih Muslim, http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com/indexahadith.html)

A question for you Moulana whether a common Muslim like me should follow this hadith or the fatwa given by your ulema. Just tell us. Also tell us who is most poist Hajrat Bibi A'isha Siddiqa RA or your ulema. Please Keep aside the detail about fiqah things because common innocent Muslims are not educated in detail about fiqah.

Please tell us should we follow Hajrat Bibi Aisha Siddiqa RA's reporting or fatwa from your ulema. I am not sure about the number but there were revelations of 17Ayats of Quran in regards to Hajrat Bibi Aiasha RA and It shows how she RA is poise than other present Muslims. Muslims until Qiyama are appreciated for the blessing of Tayemum because of her and his father Hajrat Abo Baker Siddiq RA. She RA was reporting a very good thing what she heard from our Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)for Muslims not to consume any intoxicant because it is Haram. On the other hand your ulema telling Muslims it is ok to consume foods made with alcohol containing flavor where the alcohol is from other than grape, date and barley. Asking Muslims to use perfumes made from same type of alcohol. My question is why, what bennefit we innocent common Muslims get by following the fatwa of your ulema regarding those two things. Your ulema should give fatwas so that Muslims should protect themself from hell fire after qiyama.

Please tell me what wrong about above hadith, it is a sahi hadith and it is not a week hadith. Then why should not we follow it. Our garnd parents were never expose to current western food products but they survived. Why we have to consume western food products and soft drink containing alcohol obtained other than grape, date and barley. Those food companies have choices to avoid use of alcohol but they do not want and there are thousands of Halal food products without alcohol listed on our websites.

The other part is to reply to your comments, I am not claiming that I am a alim but without fiqah knowledge I can recommend a just asimple thing that Muslims not consume those alcohol containing food product. Did I advice them any thing wrong. I am not going to use any fiqah to ask Muslims to avoid eating alcohol containing food products. Is it wrong?. Shall a Muslim has to study fiqah or approach a mufti before saying to other Muslim to do simple good things. This what I got from your reply Moulana. I do not agree with counter arguments presented to me by your ulema beacuse I am recommending good thing like eating western food products without pork and alcohol. On the otherhand your ulema are recommending to consume western food products containing alcohol. Whatever your fiqah arguments it is not saving Muslims eating Haram food products. I understand the fiqah of Hajrat Abu Hanifa but there are alternate food products available in supermarkets for Muslims so that they should not go in deep in fiqah. Please visit our US based website and there many categories of food products and under those categories there are many Halal food products without alcohol available to Muslims to consume.

This is from our website's Feedback:

"I just wanted to say jazakallahu khair for all the hard work in protecting the muslim ummah from consuming haraam products! You have no idea how much the community appreciates the MCG."

Moulana Mufti Saheb that is I am fighting for to protect Muslim Ummah and Insha Allah I will never give up my honest fight against those alcohol containing food products no matter what is the source and what is is fiqah say.

I am sorry Moulana, I am honestly disagree with you and your ulema regarding consuming the alcohol containing food products. Mufti saheb your ulema will not conveience other ulema of other majhab even our own Hanafi ulema.

Any how I already explained my views and Inshallah I will write again against recommendation of your ulema that alcohol from other than garpe, date, barley is Halal.

Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products USA
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com

Sidi, I am no Moulana or Mufti, neither do I claim I am. Please make du'a that I do study to become one, insha Allah. I post very infrequently, though I do read the discussions. Think about what you said in your earlier post. You levelled very serious accusations and were very derogatory, and I felt compelled to respond. Irrespective of your viewpoint and the 'ulama you follow, it was wholly inappropriate- any conversation with scholars and students of knowledge demands some degree of respect.

As for your other points, I am legally unqualified to answer them. I am not a scholar and I am very unknowledgeable in fiqhi matters. However, what I do believe is that you are essentially giving legal verdicts without being qualified to do so. Your points raised have been covered extensively by Sidi Abu Hajira and Mufti saheb etc, in the other threads. I leave it to Sidi Abu Hajira to address the legal issues of your post. But one point, where in the thread have the 'ulama encouraged the consumption of Western food as you claim?

In the end, I am following a sound legal verdict given by generations of scholars, based on the Qur'an and Sunnah. I leave it at that.

I repeat that I am sorry if I sound harsh but I feel it is important to be said. I also repeat that you are a better Muslim than me, I am a very poor Muslim. May Allah (Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala) guide us all. Ameen.

[rasheedahmed]

Assalam O Alaikum Br. Abuhijra

I would like to answer some of your questions you raised before.

"Neither did you provide any evidence that ethyl alcohol produced in normal dough is any different than the one made from the hops fermentation! However, the deobandi ulama, ALL OF HANAFI ULAMA (except from Imam Muhammad r.a) do differenciate between khamr asli and khamr hukmi, even barelwi ulama, even Imam Abu Yusuf r.a. It is only you who untill now were posing to be a hanafi and yet not accepting this understanding of your Aimma. Atleast you have clarified that you are not following any madhab."

I think in other posts I already stated the minor amount alcohol produced in ripe fruits and during proofing of dough for naan or bread baking due to nature. No human hand involve in it is all from Allah. On the other hand human hand is involved when they make flavor with ethyl alcohol.

Yeast used in bread baking is a living organism and the yeast cells carry lot of enzymes, nucleotide(used in baby formula) and other. During proofing a enzyme called zymase comes out of yeast cell by nature, no human hand is involved. Zymase break the sugar into alcohol and co2. Then co2 helps to raise the dough.

In case of fruit the green fruit is composed of acids, starch chlorophyll, hard pectin and organics. When close to ripening ethylene gas is produced by nature, then several enzymes produced by nature, bacteria, fungi infect fruits by nature and lot of changes occur by nature in which sugars are produced from starch and minute amount of alcohol also produced. Similarly in old days when there is no pasteurization, it is mentioned in ahadiths abou fruit juices, utensils used and also mentioned days until you can drink fruit juice before fruit juices were fermented. Slow fermentation starts on first day and slowly progress. So alcohol present in very small quantity and it is produced due to nature. Islam does not prohibit alcohol produced in small amount naturally in any form. So it is Halal to eat riped fruits, bread or naan and fruit juices before they get fermented. This is no comparision when alcohol is used purposely in flavors as solvent, alcohol used in fragrance of perfumes and alcohol used in extraction. There is alternate available to use instead of alcohol like Halal Propylene Glycol in flavors, other Halal solvent in perfumes just like alcohol free Atar in Arab countries. I hope you understand the differnce, My thesis for my master degree in Horticulture Science in India was on physiochemical characters of Guava Hybrids friuts compared to their parents guava fruits. My thesis for another master degree majering in Cereal Chemistry & Technology at North Dakota State University Fargo, ND was protein quality and baking study of Triticale cereal.

The differnce between me as a Hanafi and others is that I follow Hajrat Bibbi Aiyesha RA repoted hadith that every intoxicant is Khamr and Khamr is Haram over any other things provided that there is a Halal alternative available. When there is no alternate available and somebody life is in danger then even it says in Quran that Allah will forgive Muslim if he eat Haram.

Current situation is not emergency, there is many alcohol free food products and beverages available in supermarkets so you do not have to use alchol containing food products to satisfy your Nafs. Msulims have to develop Taqwa.

"Arab Ulama are not Hanafi per se, and do not follow hanafi ruling. Sunnipath is an Arab Hanafi website, and they have these three fatwas on the issue

Using Unlawful Medication
Medication with methyl alcohol, can it be consumed?
Synthetic Alcohol is Not Najis

The Deobandi Ulama did not force them to opt for Deobandi Faqahat. Please note the wording of Sh. Faraz Rabban"

They are not talking about alternative too, we have listed several cough syrups without animal derived ingredients and they are alcohol free on our website. I recenetly researched for myself when my Dermatologist has prescribed me a cream for irching and rash and find out a generic form which is not made with animal fat and there is no alcohol in it. I published the name of the cream on our website and send an e-mail to Islamic Medical Assoacition of North America to request for Muslim Dermatologist to prescribed this Halal cream to their Muslim patients. Yes, there are very few Barelwei Ahlesunnut ulema who follow that ruling but majority such as I discuss with two ulema here in USA and they told me that every intoxicant is Haram.

It is my wish every ulema deen should say to follow the hadith that every intoxcant is Haram, then talk about to find alternate, then talk about taqwa to go against their nafs and at the last say in case of emergency follow what it says in Quran then Imam Hajrat Abu Hanifa's fatwa but do not give green light in the begining to consume alcohol containing food products to satify their nafs.

"SubhanAllah Dr. Saheb, to save your face you are willing to accuse Ulama of deen of making mockery of deen. If you believe this, then please do not be alarmed if you get banned on this forum. People who have levelled that accusation against reputable ulama have shared that fate."

I am not making mockery of deen but I am telling the truth that you find many Muslims who follow Deobandi fiqah are so poise that they do not consume any food products containing alcohol and some of them follow our website.

You mentioned IFANCA, Dr. Chawdry of IFANCA came to my company as a student in summer when I was working as a Quality control chemist at B. Heller Seasoning company. He was my friend until when I wrote Halal book in 1991 and he does not want me to write because it will take away his Halal certification business but do not want Muslims to be benefit from my information. I worked in food industry and help many Muslims through my food book and Halal food websites rather Halal certify food products containing alcohol. I refused to Halal certify Krispe Kream Donuts when they approached me first then when I refused because their donuts are made with alcohol containing flavors, but IFANCA accepted it. IFANCA can get the Halal cerification of US products business only because they Halal certify food products with alcohol. Business is their criteria not Fiqah and thery many Halal certification agency. We care for Muslim consumers and provide avenue for their taqwa so that they can only eat Halal food products without alcohol. This is the reason our Halal certification is acceptable to every Muslim in every corner of this earth. IFANCA's certification is acceptable to few people who do not care if alcohol present in foods. They even Halal certify Al-Safa who is owned by a Jewish family who is involve in the religious Zabiha slaughtering of animals for Muslims. IFANCA wants Muslims in USA/Canad to trust jews for their Zabiha meat rather Muslims because he provide them lot of money for their Halal certification. I am sure Br. Abuhijra you do not buy Zabiha meat from non Muslim owner. We assign Halal status to supermarket non meat food products based on our criteria which do not allow alcohol in food products and follow our Hanafi ulema advice on fiqah matter. We provide Muslims both in USA/Canada which product to buy based on our information and knowledge of Halal foods in suprmarkets provided on our websites and in Halal food book so that Musllims can shop without fear of alcohol and animal derived ingredients. Alhumdulillah this is the reason our website is so popular in over 110 countries specially in US and Canada. I do not think any other website provide such detailed information.


Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmed
Muslim Consumer Group for Food Products
www.muslimconsumergroup.com
www.canadianhalalfoods.com