Need for sending our Girls to univeristies

[muminah]

Even if we have fiqhi differences, I am sure that you all will defend my right to stay home if a non Muslim mocks my decision.

Just to understand where you are coming from, you believe that going out of the house is only allowed for ...

[sudoku]

We haven't broken our fast yet in the UK!

My question to you: If for example, you were a qualified counsellor or a psychologist, do you think you would benefit the ummah more than typing articles? (which is no way I am implying is something that isn't credible) My point is, anyone can do data input (I'm sure thats not the only thing you are doing). But just to make you see where I am coming from. I personally think that a Muslimah practising as a counsellor would do much more benefit to the ummah than typing articles, even if they are Islamic.

Anyone can do it, but no one really is willing to do it are they? I'm providing a service which most people think is not something too great to do. And when you look at it, it's a work directly linked with deen. In the akhirat when people will be raised, I hope I will be counted among those who did da'wah and tableegh through tasneef. I have done other things besides that as well, homeschooling, teaching Qur'aan etc. Typing fits my daily lifestyle most. I'm proud of being able to type out articles etc that have helped many in their daily problems, . Even if it's not my own work, I'm helping someone.

And I'm not saying counseling or any other job is wrong, as long as one stays within the restriction of Shariah. So if one can counsel from home (my mother does that), then why not?

Just to understand where you are coming from, you believe that going out of the house is only allowed for ...

Due to necessity.

[Ansari]

As for mosque, I am not that big a fan.. they get more rewards at home.. what is the logic in forgoing that reward..

Assalaamu Alaykum

Scholars have allowed going to mosques very clearly when there is benefit. And these are scholars from Pak who are very strict when it comes to observing hijab.

In other topics you were talking about taqwa and fatwa and unnecessary hardship.

Do you consider it haram for women to attend mixed universities if they avoid the unnecessary interaction?

Would this also count for men who attend these mixed universities?

[muminah]

Anyone can do it, but no one really is willing to do it are they? I'm providing a service which most people think is not something too great to do. And when you look at it, it's a work directly linked with deen. In the akhirat when people will be raised, I hope I will be counted among those who did da'wah and tableegh through tasneef. I have done other things besides that as well, homeschooling, teaching Qur'aan etc. Typing fits my daily lifestyle most. I'm proud of being able to type out articles etc that have helped many in their daily problems, . Even if it's not my own work, I'm helping someone.

And I'm not saying counseling or any other job is wrong, as long as one stays within the restriction of Shariah. So if one can counsel from home (my mother does that), then why not?

Due to necessity.

And what constiutes necessity? MashaAllaah @ your mother. So does that mean I can go out of the house to train as a counsellor and then practice in my home?

What about if I can't counsel from home? My home isn't large enough. Can I go out of home and open up a 'women's centre' and counsel there? Or is that not necessity?

Your work is directly related to the deen, mashaAllaah. But counselling doesn't look quite as straight forward. I know that if I work one month I would have helped at least 50 muslim women. This would mean these women would be able to recover from their depression etc, and be able to bring their children up properly and be good wives to their husband etc etc. I am asking you then, is it better for me to stay in the home and work (I can do data input, website design etc) or go out and work?

[Nawawi619]

I don't mean the comment in the way which you are interpreting it, it was meant as a response to Br Abu Hajira, please see the context.

And it most certainly doesn't imply that men are innocent.

This entire thread is a fine example of cultural baggage and sexist tendencies, one policy for boys (bend the rules for them), lock up the girls and throw the key away.

What is overlooked here is that a vast number of our Sisters are single mothers, divorced, unmarried, Reverts etc, etc. etc. and also Non-Asians so Asian cultural norms also don't apply to them but that's a different discussion all together. This is the ground reality of life in the West.

As I stated earlier, let me agree to disagree with Maulana Abu Hajira, Br London786, & Mufti Ibraheem Desai and all others.

As Salamu Alaykum

I totally agree with you Sidi Muadh, the whole ground reality in the West is far different than other places. Also as a convert, we have unique situations especially for sisters. I also been through the whole "western" educational system from grade school to the college level.

My wife went to college, she converted actually in high school, she studied nursing and she wasn't among the "90%" who dated others while in college. I'm curious if there is any science behind the 90% figure. As a person who works in Muslim activism and advocacy, I have talked to many MSA's, Muslim youth groups, etc. Many of whom are not "dating" or getting themselves into problematic haram situations. In the MSA's I've come across, the figure is more like 25% or less go into that and they are usually shunned by the group.

Of course it is true that there are fasiqun within the Muslim student body at colleges, most of them non practicing but they usually can only go after similar non practicing Sisters not the hijabis.

Convert sisters don't have the familial social network of support as Muslims raised in the deen. A lot of them convert in their college years with their families being totally against their Islam. So who will support them? A lot of times they would have to support themselves and in the West this cannot be done without getting an education. A lot of them have to work because their families, being non muslim "kick them out" at age 18 or 21. So this whole idea that they must stay home as a general rule isnt feasible for many convert muslimahs. Another option is for them to get married but then where is the social network that will facilitate that for them in the West?

While I do agree that the optimum is be in a system where Shariah is fully enforced, Muslim polity, a good family unit, a waqf system, bayt al mal, qadis, muftis, a sound Islamic educational system from an early age to the graduate level (which is largely absent in even the Muslim world), because we do not have the traditional safety nets afforded women and men in a classical Islamic system what is the alternative? If there is such a system that still available how is that operationalized with Muslims living as minorities in a non Muslim land which does not have such safety nets?

So this whole issue isn't a one size fits all situation. Each part of the world has certain circumstances that must be taken into consideration when applying the ahkam. As Dr. Wael Hallaq in his new book Shari'a: Theory, Practice, and Transformations said,

The overriding concern of the author-jurists was the incorporation of points of law or "cases" that were deemed relevant and necessary in the age in which they were writing. This is evidenced not only in their compilation practices, but also in their untiring insistence on the necessity of including in their works "much needed cases" deemed to be relevant to contemporary exigencies and those cases of "widespread occurence" (ma' ta'ummu bi-hi al-balwa), whereas cases that had become irrelevant to the community and its needs excluded. Many, if not the majority, of cases included were acknowledged as belonging to the 'later jurisprudents who elaborated them in response to the emerging new problems in the community. Reflecting the 'changing conditions of people and of age' (li ikhtilaf al asr wa taghayyur ahwal an nas), the author jurists opted for later opinions that were at variance from the doctrines of early masters. It is also instructive that the fatwas that formed the substance of later doctrine were those that answered contemporary needs and had at once gained currency in practice. On the other hand, those opinions that ceased to be of use in litigation were excluded as weak or even irregular

This is further reinforced by Shaykh Ahmad ibn Naqib al Misri's purpose for writing Umdat as Salik wa Uddat an Nasik. To create a mukhtasar for the Shafi'i school that is reliable and sound while avoiding legal questions that have become rare and obscure to practical application in his region.

Also great Muslim women in history werent always the ones who stayed at home and raised children. Take for instance Umm Hani Maryam, the great hadith master (who was among the teachers of Imam Sakhawi and Imam ibn Hajar al Asqalani) , the Shafi'i jurist, and she was a Textile workshop owner. Her bio is on page 190 in the shaded box which is taken from Ibn Hajar al Asqalani's biographical dictionary work on great luminaries in Islam:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Fz5...age&q=&f=false

Another example is the wife of Imam Kasani, who was a faqih in her own right (her father was a great jurist who authored Tuhfa al Fuqaha), in which Imam Kasani would not present his fatwa unless his wife would also agree with it and sign on it as well.

Also because in the classical era there were safety nets implemented, women were predominant in putting up endowments for the great schools and even building schools like al Azhar, Al Qarwiyyin, etc. These safety nets were taken out by colonialists and other factors.

That is why women flourished more in the classical periods but at the turn of the 19th century onwards, their safety net, rights, etc went down the tubes. Because there is no longer a system of support at the macro level, that is why more women are working and getting secular education. Is that the optimum way?

Take for instance we shelter a Muslim girl all her life, keep her at home, etc etc , virtually minimal contact to the outside world. She is married off to someone, who eventually turns out to be an abusive fasiq husband. There is a divorce, she gets screwed over her idda payment because he is oppressive to her. Because she is sheltered she doesnt know how to get help. She ends up in welfare, a single mom, no substantial education for her to take care of herself, both her parents have since passed away and she has no other extended family in the West. What does she do? This isnt some extreme hypothetical situation, it actually happened in my region.

That is why al Hajj Malik al Shabazz said "Educate a man and you educate one person. Educate a woman and you educate and liberate an entire generation."

When we have educated women, we have educated men because the first teacher of the child is the woman and if the woman is ignorant and naive, you reap what you sow.

[abuhajira]

Assalaamu Alaykum

Scholars have allowed going to mosques very clearly when there is benefit. And these are scholars from Pak who are very strict when it comes to observing hijab.

1. Can this benefit be attained at homes? If so then the "when" statement doesnt apply
2. In most places where we are spending 2-4 Million Pounds making madaris, I think communities are well able of running Private radios to provide this benefit. Alhamdulillah S.Africa beats UK in this regards.
3. The laxity among the scholars of UK and quite of few of US and Canada is also understandable, which is why you dont see me at a war with them. The men have failed in their deeni duties miserably. They dont treat their females (who they were supposed to be guardians over) with islamic dignity let alone teach them few masail of deen and boost their religious morale. So in such a fail state of men, ulama sought it a necessity to allow women to atleast seek this knowledge in masajid or halaqas. But even this is not without restrictions.. can you honestly say that the masajid and msa halaqa meeting are within proper confines of shariah.. The ones I have attended weren't.. perhaps again UK is out of this world. In anycase, please read what I had written from Mufti Mahmood Saheb r.a in the Masturaat Jamaat thread...

In other topics you were talking about taqwa and fatwa and unnecessary hardship.Do you consider it haram for women to attend mixed universities if they avoid the unnecessary interaction?

I follow this opinion... Ideally women stay at home, however beyond this according to the environment and necessity the leeway will be seen.

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...8b552b0e99f957

It is clear from this that it is a general rule to remain in the confines of her home based on the feminine nature of women. Shari’a has also considered circumstances based on need and necessity.

In view of the fitna and immoralities of the time, a woman should not attend the masjid. Shari’a has not made it compulsory upon her to perform salat with congregation. She could perform salat be herself. There is no compelling need for her to attend the masjid. There is no need to bend this rule as in the case of a woman being put in an unwilling situation to earn an income.

At the same time, if the need of a place is such that women are definitely needed for some job which on finds karahiyah in the men doing it, then Ulama have seen a leeway.. Remember this is a leeway and not the main ruling..

Women are not barred from leaving their homes. If there is a need that is valid and acceptable in Shariah, a woman my leave her home to fulfill her need. Studying medicine in itself is not prohibited. It is in fact a need. This is apart from the fact that Shariah permits a female to be treated by a male doctor.
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.p...09f1930719d661

Would this also count for men who attend these mixed universities?

1. If men can find some skill job (which in some places pay better), then I would advise those skill jobs. there is never a shortage of skill job, especially in the west. If the temprament of a person is such that he is only good in academic and need that university degree or diploma, I do not see it as prohibited provided he keeps his distance with opposite gender as much as possible. Again it will depend on a personal basis... We were discussing or a more general basis for women.
2. On more general terms, the command of staying home is specifically for women, and men are commanded to earn for their home folk. So no it would not count for men.
3. The order of lowering gaze for women is AFTER the command of staying home. i.e if she has to emerge from home, then she should lower gaze etc .... While for men, the initial case is that they must leave home to provide food for family, and must keep their gaze lowered in doing so... There is a difference..

So both women and men have different ahkaam they should abide by..

[muminah]

can you honestly say that the masajid and msa halaqa meeting are within proper confines of shariah.. The ones I have attended weren't.. perhaps again UK is out of this world.

To answer your question: Yes, with regards to the halqah in my area and many others in the UK.

At the same time, if the need of a place is such that women are definitely needed for some job which on finds karahiyah in the men doing it, then Ulama have seen a leeway.. Remember this is a leeway and not the main ruling..

So in that situation, a woman can go to university/college then to qualify to fulfil this need?

[abuhajira]

To answer your question: Yes, with regards to the halqah in my area and many others in the UK.

As I said.. UK indeed is out of this world..

So in that situation, a woman can go to university/college then to qualify to fulfil this need?

That is the opinion I follow.. however at the same time the one who stays home will always be rewarded more because they are fulfiling the ahkam of the Qur'an.. While the one who is taking a leeway, is doing so out of necessity.

It is just like a person dying out of hunger will consume something prohibited to stay alive to fulfil the need..

Jus to add another point.. We do know a few psychological counselors (female) who counsel from home and by phone and by emails.. Darul Iftaa has a Social Department which takes services from such a sister. Allah give her all the jazaa' , Ameen.

Similarly we have few male mufties as well who counsel both men and women in many different situations. So these can be done very efficiently from home or without that much interaction.

[muminah]

Just to add another point.. We do know a few psychological counselors (female) who counsel from home and by phone and by emails.. Darul Iftaa has a Social Department which takes services from such a sister. Allah give her all the jazaa' , Ameen.

Similarly we have few male mufties as well who counsel both men and women in many different situations. So these can be done very efficiently from home.

And where did this sister qualify? A one-to-one counselling session is no doubt more beneficial than through phone and email. You can't counsel seriously depressed women over the phone.

I would never be comfortable with a male mufti counselling me, and neither would many women.

That is the opinion I follow.. however at the same time the one who stays home will always be rewarded more because they are fulfiling the ahkam of the Qur'an.. While the one who is taking a leeway, is doing so out of necessity.

A woman who is going out of her way, studying hard, to serve the deen, how can she gain less reward than the woman who is sitting at home?

[abuhajira]

And where did this sister qualify?

It was not my place to ask, but even if for argument sake we assume she did go to univeristy, she is doing this social work from home now. Those sisters within the vicinity who need help go to her home where she helps.

A one-to-one counselling session is no doubt more beneficial than through phone and email. You can't counsel seriously depressed women over the phone.

Alhamdulillah she tackles hundreds of cases every year, so I dont think your assessment is entirely correct. Not only that she has even counseled people from other countries. Obviously every case will be different, where she thinks that a one on one doctor patient interaction is needed, she would guide that.

I would never be comfortable with a male mufti counselling me, and neither would many women.

And still that would not make up the enomous amounts of questions from femal phone calls that we receive. The ummah is very big sister. You may not feel comfortable, but Shariah permits it provided the restrictions are kept. This counseling is not like you daily pat on the back consoling.. it analyzing their issues (marital, social, fiqhi, etc) and then guiding them towards an appropriate course of actions. The Darul Iftaa get an average of 2-5 marital dispute every week. Some include Talaq cases, while others are of different nature.

Sister, You have said it twice or thrice that you are here to learn more, yet the constant questioning seems like you are looking for justification for what you have already made your mind about. Believe me, I do not wish to be the one to tell you what you can do and what you cannot do. You can go ahead and do whatever you like. I only say what I understand from my teachers...

A woman who is going out of her way, studying hard, to serve the deen, how can she gain less reward than the woman who is sitting at home?

This is why I had asked you to ask someone to explain to you the Ibn Kathir's ibarah. let me re type that..

جئن النساء إلى رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلن: يا رسول الله، ذهب الرجال بالفضل والجهاد في سبيل الله تعالى، فما لنا عمل ندرك به عمل المجاهدين في سبيل الله؟ فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: "من قعد -أو كلمة نحوها -منكن في بيتها فإنها تدرك عمل المجاهدين (5) في سبيل الله".

Some women came to Rasulullah and said " O Rasulullah the men have superseded us in virtue and Jihad in the path of Allah. Then what action is there for us that we may (also) acquire the (reward of the) action of Mujahideen in the path of Allah. So Rasulullah said " Whoever sits - or some statement like that - from among you in her (own) home then she has acquired the (reward of the) action of Mujahideen in the path of Allah.

I think the above sufficiently address your concern..