Query regarding shaykh abdul baki and Shaykh Mahmud Effendi

[London786]

Asalamualaykum w w

Inshallah some brother is planning to go turkey in the near future.......he would like to meet shaykh mahmud effendi and shaykh abdul baki.........but before he meets them he has some queries..


1. How strict is the shaykh and mureeds on the sunnah.......by sunnah i mean everything...beard, trousers above ankles, eating, drinking, sleeping, avoiding interest etc....
2. Do the above mentioned shaykhs support the government........e.g. do they praise the government or are they critical?
3. Do the shaykhs have kashf and have they made any predictions?
4. Can a person get to spend time with them personally.
5. What are the contact details of the shuyukh?
6. What is the zikr they do? loud or quiet...what do begineers do and how advanced do people get.
7. What is the average routine at the zawiya(in urdu known as khanqah and turkish i think tekke)...how many hours zikr per day?? in ramadan what do they do???
8. What do the shuyukh think of tableegh jamaat or ulema-e-deoband
9. What are the views of the shuyukh on bidahs....

Any other useful information........

the names of other shaykhs that r based in turkey????

im looking forward to some answers...... by the way umar italy im waiting for ur article on ur journey...........

[The Fake Shaykh]

[QUOTE=London786;413610]Asalamualaykum w w

Inshallah some brother is planning to go turkey in the near future.......he would like to meet shaykh mahmud effendi and shaykh abdul baki.........but before he meets them he has some queries..


A/S

i went to turkey couple years back, i did meet some of his mureeds, from my meeting with them i found them to be on sunnah, their character, yes they had full beards, wore traditional clothing, wore trousers above ankles, i went to the markaz in istanbul and asked some brothers about shayhk mahmood, they generally had a good opinion of him, allah knows best

[kayra]

Asalamualaykum w w

Inshallah some brother is planning to go turkey in the near future.......he would like to meet shaykh mahmud effendi and shaykh abdul baki.........but before he meets them he has some queries..


1. How strict is the shaykh and mureeds on the sunnah.......by sunnah i mean everything...beard, trousers above ankles, eating, drinking, sleeping, avoiding interest etc....
2. Do the above mentioned shaykhs support the government........e.g. do they praise the government or are they critical?
3. Do the shaykhs have kashf and have they made any predictions?
4. Can a person get to spend time with them personally.
5. What are the contact details of the shuyukh?
6. What is the zikr they do? loud or quiet...what do begineers do and how advanced do people get.
7. What is the average routine at the zawiya(in urdu known as khanqah and turkish i think tekke)...how many hours zikr per day?? in ramadan what do they do???
8. What do the shuyukh think of tableegh jamaat or ulema-e-deoband
9. What are the views of the shuyukh on bidahs....

Any other useful information........

the names of other shaykhs that r based in turkey????

im looking forward to some answers...... by the way umar italy im waiting for ur article on ur journey...........

Ah ah ask the brother to pray for me when he goes to visit my beloved Shaikh!!

1. Mahmut Efendi is much stricter with his murids, I believe. Our Shaikh doesn't reject any murid or scold any murid for not wearing a beard, etc. In fact, he says, "we don't care about the outer shell, we care about the engine (heart)." Having said that, our Shaikh and those closest to him refuse to even swat away a mosquito unless our Prophet was recorded to have done the same. Our Shaikh is said to live the Sunnah of our Prophet perfectly, and his murids try to imitate and emulate him as far as they are able. Some of his murids are such flawed human beings that this isn't very far But our beloved Shaikh never gives up on us!

As I mentioned in another post, people wearing openly religious symbols such as headscarves and big beards are not allowed (by Turkish law) to have certain jobs (in state institutions). This is one reason why many murids opt for the clean-shaven look. Sad and weird (for an outsider like me).

2. Wouldn't know the answer to that. But I know that our Shaikh disapproves of flouting the law. He also doesn'T encourage political debate, but that's probably because of the dynamics of Turkish politics - many of his murids are Kurds, who hold certain opposing political views to Turks, for example. And of course the strictly secular government is always on the lookout for tariqa which criticizes them, so our Shaikh isn't likely to broadcast any criticisms if he has any.

3. Not 100% what keshf means, but I'm guessing from the similarity to a Turkish word - is it like, revelation? Being told things by angels, etc.? Because if so - even his grandchildren are said to know things about murids that they couldn't possibly know =) I myself got the shock of my life when I asked him for something very specific (in my head, hundreds of miles away from where I knew he was physically) and he sent it to me via a member of his family within minutes. I'm actually very ashamed about this, because I know he normally only does things like this when a murid's faith is weak, and needs bolstering.

4. When necessary, yes. International visitors get priority, I believe (probably because they have less chance of returning again the following week). Once I had a problem which I told his daughter about. He then called my husband into his private room to advise him on the issue. I'm pretty sure that if the brother you mention requests to see him, he won't be turned down. I can get my husband to contact some murids who live there to make sure there's somebody who can translate, insh'Allah!

5. Ah. DO you want an address or a phone number? And for what purpose, exactly?

6. Silent dhikr, under a (white) cover. Novices start off with 5000 repetitions, and do dhikr with their heart. Advanced murids do dhikr with their other letayyif as well (forhead, etc.). I'm an extreme novice, so I'm not the best person to give details on this.

7. The day revolves around Salah, service (doing anything useful, like making bread or carrying loads or whatevr) and hatme (a very special kind of prayer/ dhikr meeting). Daily prescribed dhikr is private and personal, and the murid has to fit it into his/ her day him/herself.

8. Oh dear. Could you translate, please?

9. Bidah is innovation, right? If you mean religious innovation, our Shaykh is very very traditional in matters of religion and worship. If you mean worldly innovation, I know some members of his family use email =)

Any other useful information...

Well. He is a friend of Allah, a descendant of our beloved Prophet and has dedicated his life to guiding thousands upon thousands of murids. I'm told that durg addicts and prostitutes and criminals leave his presence with noor shining from their faces. I hear story upon story of murids whose hearts call out to him and he helps them from hundreds or thousands of miles away. As we discussed in another thread, I believe all Shaykhs are beloved by their murids, and the murids never tire of extolling the virtues and keramet of their shaykh. I can only testify to what I have personally experienced. And that is, in a nutshell, that every day since I first visited him has been filled with keramet. And the miracles just seem to increase with time.

[London786]

jazakallah khairan for ur information........if u dont mind can i comment on each of those points u mentioned........

1. With regards to the shaykh not caring for the outer shell.....I agree the inner is the most important thing but according to my limited understanding and the mashaikh ive met they consider both important........i mean if the outer was not an issue then the shaykh himself would not grow a beard.....So does the average mureed use miswaak whilst doing wudhu, pray salah always in the masjid(men) etc.....i mean for us indopak people its very rare to see practicing people clean shaven.......its a bit of a contradiction...

2. So has the shaykh not ever mentioned Turkey's role in Nato, or the fact that turkey allowed the americans to use bases to attack iraq??? Are there any sufi mashaikh in turkey who have taken on the government and tackled these issues?? So the shaykh has a lot of kurdish followers mashallah??? I was always under the impression that kurds were lost people who were nationalist with wierd views......i know salahudeen ayubi was a kurd and the famous shaykh khalid roomi(also known as baghdadi) was a kurd but i was under the impression that the kurds dont pray and are far from deen......at least thats what i saw in the uk.....

3. yes what u have described is kashf.......so is it common amongst mureeds?? do mureeds see the prophet SAW in a wakeful state??? i have heard in some tariqas the kashfs of the graves etc is actually taught...is this the case with this silsila

4. Jazakallah khairan for the offer of translators...does the shaykh speak arabic??

5. I would want an email address of a male mureed or khalifah(has the shaykh appointed any succesors?) who knows english......the purpose is to find out more about shaykh abdul baki and the silsila and hopefully arrange a trip to turkey soon...

6.i am familar with the zikr......so how long does it take for a mureed to go through the latifas.....i mean i know it depends on the mureed but on average??? and what is after the latifas.....coz ur a beginner u might not know but if u could put us in touch with someone who might.

7. is the zikr khatme khwajaghaan......so the tasbih zikr is done individually???
could you give me an average routine of the day??? how much time is roughly spent on zikr???coz ive been to some khanqahs where the zikr is only about 30 mins per day whilst in others its almost 5 hours collective zikr per day......

8. tableegh jamaat is the most famous missionary group in the world....many members of this forum can u tell u more.....it was founded by one of the greatest sufis maulana ilyas.....they knock on people's houses and call them to the masjid.....they usually stay at the masjid read the stories of the sahabah, teach each other and others basic sunnahs like how to eat, sleep etc according to the sunnah....is it possible u could find out the shaykh's views on this blessed group.....They hold the biggest gathering in the world after hajj mashallah....
deoband is the name of a revivalist movement which is a movement which has revived the sunnah in many parts of the world......They are people of the inner and outer, they engage in tableegh, jihad, teaching, zikr etc......They have produced the most and best scholars in the world......go to www.deoband.org for more info......

9. yes, bidah is innovation......what does ur shaykh think of practices like celebrating birthdays, music etc.

so how have people's life changed??? are the mureeds regular in tahajud?? on average how long do mureeds spend on zikr......

[kalamiah]

I would like to know whether Pas Anfas is also instructed by the Shaykhs' similar to Naqshbandi Owaisi and Chishti. So far I have not known Naqshbandi Mujaddidis instruct this exercise.

Thanks, Jazakallah

[Ansari]

9. What are the views of the shuyukh on bidahs....

Not that strict I would say. I have met 2 Turkish brothers and have talked with them about it. One was a brother graduated from Ma'ad al-Fath in Damascus, and said that sufism in Turkey is awfull and the people are totally ignorant. He also expressed reservations about Shaykh Mahmud Effendi, and the manner in which his students perform rabita (tasawur al-shaykh).

Another Turkish brother told me how he saw Ahmud Hucca on tv defending the wording "Shafate Ya Rasulallah" during iqama (or adhan perhaps), and calling those who forbid it 'wahhabis'.

[kayra]

jazakallah khairan for ur information........if u dont mind can i comment on each of those points u mentioned........

1. With regards to the shaykh not caring for the outer shell.....I agree the inner is the most important thing but according to my limited understanding and the mashaikh ive met they consider both important........i mean if the outer was not an issue then the shaykh himself would not grow a beard.....So does the average mureed use miswaak whilst doing wudhu, pray salah always in the masjid(men) etc.....i mean for us indopak people its very rare to see practicing people clean shaven.......its a bit of a contradiction...

2. So has the shaykh not ever mentioned Turkey's role in Nato, or the fact that turkey allowed the americans to use bases to attack iraq??? Are there any sufi mashaikh in turkey who have taken on the government and tackled these issues?? So the shaykh has a lot of kurdish followers mashallah??? I was always under the impression that kurds were lost people who were nationalist with wierd views......i know salahudeen ayubi was a kurd and the famous shaykh khalid roomi(also known as baghdadi) was a kurd but i was under the impression that the kurds dont pray and are far from deen......at least thats what i saw in the uk.....

3. yes what u have described is kashf.......so is it common amongst mureeds?? do mureeds see the prophet SAW in a wakeful state??? i have heard in some tariqas the kashfs of the graves etc is actually taught...is this the case with this silsila

4. Jazakallah khairan for the offer of translators...does the shaykh speak arabic??

5. I would want an email address of a male mureed or khalifah(has the shaykh appointed any succesors?) who knows english......the purpose is to find out more about shaykh abdul baki and the silsila and hopefully arrange a trip to turkey soon...

6.i am familar with the zikr......so how long does it take for a mureed to go through the latifas.....i mean i know it depends on the mureed but on average??? and what is after the latifas.....coz ur a beginner u might not know but if u could put us in touch with someone who might.

7. is the zikr khatme khwajaghaan......so the tasbih zikr is done individually???
could you give me an average routine of the day??? how much time is roughly spent on zikr???coz ive been to some khanqahs where the zikr is only about 30 mins per day whilst in others its almost 5 hours collective zikr per day......

8. tableegh jamaat is the most famous missionary group in the world....many members of this forum can u tell u more.....it was founded by one of the greatest sufis maulana ilyas.....they knock on people's houses and call them to the masjid.....they usually stay at the masjid read the stories of the sahabah, teach each other and others basic sunnahs like how to eat, sleep etc according to the sunnah....is it possible u could find out the shaykh's views on this blessed group.....They hold the biggest gathering in the world after hajj mashallah....
deoband is the name of a revivalist movement which is a movement which has revived the sunnah in many parts of the world......They are people of the inner and outer, they engage in tableegh, jihad, teaching, zikr etc......They have produced the most and best scholars in the world......go to www.deoband.org for more info......

9. yes, bidah is innovation......what does ur shaykh think of practices like celebrating birthdays, music etc.

so how have people's life changed??? are the mureeds regular in tahajud?? on average how long do mureeds spend on zikr......

Firstly, I'd like to make another disclaimer: the male murid I have observed most closely is my husband (naturally!) and therefore most of my knowledge of the brothers is secondhand. The brother I know second-best is one of my husband's oldest friends, who visits often, and my husband encourages me to listen in on their conversations from upstairs when he is here, so I can benefit from his (the friend's) experience - my husband is very wary of repeating things afterwards, in case he gets certain things wrong etc.

This particular murid wears a beard, dresses according to Sunnah (to my limited knowledge), uses miswaak (carries one in his pocket, according to H), observes Sharia law and Sunnah to the best of his ability down to the smallest detail (where possible), and even when he doesn't go to a masjid he will always try to form a jemaat. Apparently he hasn't stepped foot anywhere in a state of non-wudhu since he was 15 or something (not sure how that's possible??). Etc.

On the other end of the scale you have murids like me, struggling to escape decades of Western conditioning, and still feeling delighted if I manage to wake up in time for morning prayer before sunrise.

Like I said, the murids of our Shaikh come from all walks of life. Just like I'm told not to judge Islam by all Muslims, I assume the same goes for a Shaikh - I don't think he should be evaulated on the basis of all his murids. I still have a long way to go!

A word about the Turkish political climate: in all the years I've been in this country, I have never once heard a word spoken against the revered founding father of modern Turkey. I've known people who thought it was "cool" and "modern" to say vile things about our Prophet , or even boast about how they didn't even fear Allah (hashaa), but never, not even once, have I heard the father of modern Turkey being criticized. Access to YouTube was blocked in the whole country for 2 whole years after somebody on the other side of the world uploaded a video "insulting" him. One is considered a traitor to the country (or an enemy of the state) to criticize him or oppose his teachings. Journalists and authors have been jailed, deported, etc. for writing something that could be interpreted in this light.

Now, the founding father of modern Turkey was firmly opposed to religious extremism, and warned that if the government's secularism was compromised by religious people getting into positions of influence, the "religious fanatics" could very quickly take over the country and turn Turkey into "another Iran", where women are stoned for walking the streets with their heads exposed or whatever.

So there is currently a very weird polarization in this country. Weird for an outsider like me, I mean. You can be modern, educated and enlightened, OR you can be backward, religious and ignorant. Religious practicing Muslims are a potential threat to the status quo, and are banned from state institutions (at least, they shouldn't "flaunt" their beliefs with beards or headscarves etc.). Imams and mufti are state-employed, and therefore must abide by Turkish secular law. If ANYBODY were to criticize certain policies they could be denounced as anti-Turkish, but if the person who did this was a Shaikh, he could find that life was made very difficult for his murids.

At the moment, our Shaikh is tolerated because he appears "benign", and also because he's served the general population, I suppose - last year a few busfuls of heroin and crack addicts were sent to his village and they all returned three days later cured of their addictions. The media made fun of this, with headlines like "now they're curing mental illness with Salah!!", with big blown-up pictures of nameless men with exaggerated turbans and women kissing their hands (which would NEVER happen with a Sha'afi Shaikh!!). However, a few years ago our Shaikh, his brothers and father, were turned out of village after village because the locals were so uncomfortable of the stigma attached to having a "religious man" in residence.

The current Prime Minister's wife wears a headscarf, and when he was elected, my inbox brimmed over with emails from normally perfectly sane and rational friends of mine, complete with PowerPoint presentations charting out how Turkey would go from "this" (photograph of "modern" Istanbul girls wearing miniskirts and drinking Starbucks coffee) to "this" (photograph of hundreds of women draped in black, with only a net slit for the eyes). Apparently the new Prime Minister was a secret Naqshibendi "fanatic" and had "fooled" the public into voting for him, and now he was going to "cunningly" introduce religion back into all state institutions. Every single day I still get emails "uncovering" some new "religious conspiracy".

Bla bla bla.

In this kind of a political climate, you can probably appreciate how many murids choose to keep a low profile if they live in "modern" cities. However, having said that, I don't know any female murids apart from myself who haven't yet adopted hijab in some form, even if it means that they can't go to university - and I haven'T heard of any male murids being persecuted for wearing a beard in the city etc. In some parts of the country, like Konya, you would look almost naked WITHOUT a beard and one of those little caps they wear (I forget what it's called).

You can also appreciate why I wouldn't have heard if our Shaikh disapproved of the government.

Hold on, let me post this before I continue - I may be interrupted at any minute.

[London786]

jazakalllah khairan for ur answer....seems like life in turkey is complicated.....i mean with the muslims in the uk ive come across a lot of non-practicing people but the vast majority have a lot of love for islam.....ive never heard any muslim insult the prophet SAW........astaghfirullah......

please answer the rest of my questions when u get time.....

[ENIGMA]

What Kayra posted is true. I mean about the political climate in Turkey.

[kayra]

Sorry for the interruption. Regarding your other questions, I'm embarassed to say that I've never heard of the two jamaat you mentioned, although I've learnt that the Turkish for the former is Jemaat-i Teblig. I hope you can get answers from some other murids, or ask our Shaikh yourself.

The letayif dhikr starts at 21 thousand repetitions, and I believe is "completed" in some way at 101 thousand. Obviously murids at this advanced level spend many hours doing their dhikr, but it is against adap to ask too many questions about it. But if 5000 repetitions takes from 20 to 45 minutes, I should imagine that advanced murids devote a large portion of their day to dhikr. You're right - I have no idea what happens after the letayif. I've heard about murids who are in an advanced stage, and am told that they see and hear and experience things that I can't even grasp. Insha'Allah you will meet some of these when you visit.

Our Shaikh and his family and most devoted murid of course perform the tahajjud regularly. On the other end of the scale there are murid who aren't even prescribed the beginners' 5000 repetitions of dhikr. What I'M trying to explain is that our Shaikh won't burden a murid's nafs with anything that might make him give up or rebel after a few months. Even the daily tests that we are given, with Allah's permission, are tailor-made. Some of us aren't strong enough to bear really tough events with grace and stoicism, and some murids have reported very stange "side effects" when they have done things without our Shaikh's advice, like increasing their daily dhikr by 3000 repetitions because they "felt they were ready".

I'm digressing again. I spoke to the local representative of the sisters (the representative is the one who decides when something should be asked directly to our Shaikh, etc.). She has promised to contact the village to ask for the email address of a resident murid (it's usually best to speak to somebody who actually lives there, as they do salah with our Shaikh every day, and see him and speak to him every day - please remember I am only a very lowly and very ignorant murid - Insha'Allah I'm saying this sincerely - I am not an authority on our Shaikh in any way, but I haven'T seen any other of his murids here on the forum yet, and I really want to answer your questions sufficiently so that your brother will feel satisfied and go and see for himself. It's really the only way. No amount of information can replace the knowldge felt by the heart.)

By the way, I asked about birthday parties and music =) Nobody has an answer for the birthday party question (it's not really a part of traditional Turkish culture anyway) but music, while not forbidden, is strongly advised against. Anything which nourishes the nafs is advised against.

for this opportunity to learn a few more things about my own Shaikh and tariqa!