Perennialism is kufr - Imam Khaffaji & Kashmiri

[Shuayb Ahmed]

Asalamu 'alaykum,

Qadi Iyad On The Principle: Denying What Constitutes Kufr is Kufr

I think what is being denied is not what constitutes Kufr as such, which is a theological and metaphysical question, but instead what a particular group of scholars deems Kufr...

The advocate of all of this [that even in the area of fundamental beliefs every one who seeks to learn the truth is right and his opinion is acceptable before Allah even if he is wrong even the Christians and Jews and Fire-worshippers] is an unbeliever for there is Consensus among the Muslims that whoever doesn’t declare the Christians and Jews to be unbelievers is an unbeliever, and that whoever advocates a religion other than Islam, or vacillates, or has any doubts, about the unbelief of those who advocate any other religion [he too is an unbeliever].

I would side with the Qur'an against this "consensus" or against any esteemed personage:

Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light. . . (5:44)

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. . . (5:47)

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:62)

Of course we've been over this all before. What some Muslim venerables choose too explain away or ignore cannot concern me to greatly. If believing that only your cliche has God's ear keeps you vigilant in observing God's rights then all praises are God's. Just be careful with how you play the takfir game--it affords you certain easy certitudes, but its is also a slippery slope. . .



Shuayb

[maneatinglizard]

Asalamu 'alaykum,



I think what is being denied is not what constitutes Kufr as such, which is a theological and metaphysical question, but instead what a particular group of scholars deems Kufr...



I would side with the Qur'an against this "consensus" or against any esteemed personage:

Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light. . . (5:44)

Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. . . (5:47)

Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. (2:62)

Of course we've been over this all before. What some Muslim venerables choose too explain away or ignore cannot concern me too greatly. If believing that only your clique has God's ear keeps you vigilant in observing God's rights then all praises are God's.



Shuayb

Should theological Satanists be included amongst those who are potentially saved if they follow their religion?

[WaliRazi]

I would side with the Qur'an against this "consensus" or against any esteemed personage:

Funny... I've hear the same argument from "Qur'anite" rejectors of the Sunnah...

Can you even cite ONE proper Sunni authority who has rejected the principle "Denying What Constitutes Kufr is Kufr"?

[Shuayb Ahmed]

Asalamu 'alaykum,

Funny... I've hear the same argument from "Qur'anite" rejectors of the Sunnah...

Can you even cite ONE proper Sunni authority who has rejected the principle "Denying What Constitutes Kufr is Kufr"?

I repeat: "I think what is being denied is not what constitutes Kufr as such, which is a theological and metaphysical question, but instead what a particular group of scholars deems Kufr..."

Further, could you define "proper Sunni authority" for me and explain how such an authority can overrule the clear meaning of the Qur'an? In almost no other instance do scholars bend over backwards, doing what amounts to hermeneutical contortionism, in trying to arrive at a comfortable interpretation--that is when they aren't short-cutting the effort with naskh.


Shuayb

[ismail_abdalhaqq]

Asalamu 'alaykum,



I repeat: "I think what is being denied is not what constitutes Kufr as such, which is a theological and metaphysical question, but instead what a particular group of scholars deems Kufr..."

Further, could you define "proper Sunni authority" for me and explain how such an authority can overrule the clear meaning of the Qur'an? In almost no other instance do scholars bend over backwards, doing what amounts to hermeneutical contortionism, in trying to arrive at a comfortable interpretation--that is when they aren't short-cutting the effort with naskh.


Shuayb

How can you follow the Maliki madhhab in fiqh, but reject the aqeedah of all of Ahl us-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah? The religion with Allah (subhanu wa ta'ala) is Islam. No other religion is acceptable to him. Anyone who fails to acknowledge Sayyidina Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) as the Messenger of Allah is a kaafir, and whoever dies a kaafir is in the hellfire.

If you do not know that everyone who is outside of Islam is a kaafir, you do not know what kufr is.

[Shuayb Ahmed]

Asalamu 'alaykum

Anyone who fails to acknowledge Sayyidina Muhammad (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) as the Messenger of Allah is a kaafir, and whoever dies a kaafir is in the hellfire.

If you do not know that everyone who is outside of Islam is a kaafir, you do not know what kufr is.

The problem is far more complex than that Ismail. Perhaps you could familiarize yourself with older threads in which I've gone over the many complexities of this problem with other members. Anyway, the Qur'an affirms the salvific potential of the Jews, the Christians, the Sabi'un (Mandaeans), and Zoroastrians, all of whom reject the Wahy on one level or another of our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Reconciling this with some sayings attributed to the Prophet may be difficult, or impossible for some groups, but it has not gone unnoticed by traditional scholars. Even Imam al-Ghazali has a very nuanced view on this question.


Shuayb

[WaliRazi]

How can you follow the Maliki madhhab in fiqh, but reject the aqeedah of all of Ahl us-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah?

Perennialists like Shuayb only pay lip service to traditional Islam. I guess it's some kind of taqiyyah maneuver. I'm confident people like him are not able to even cite one scholar from the Malikis in support of their perennialist heresy.

Further, could you define "proper Sunni authority" for me...

No, I don't see the need to do that... instead let me provide you with a little leeway: Can you cite ANY scholar from the Sunni tradition who did not regard the religion of Jews and Christians as kufr?

... how such an authority can overrule the clear meaning of the Qur'an?

The best of creation, Muhammad the apostle of God is our exegete of the Qur'an and he - as pointed out by brother Saad - said:

By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, he who amongst the community of Jews or Christians hears about me, but does not affirm his belief in that with which I have been sent and dies in this state (of disbelief), he shall be but one of the denizens of Hell-Fire.

Do you reject this hadith?

[ahmad12]

It seems the perennialists reject hadith, consensus and some verses of the Quran in order to carry on believing that the kuffar are not in fact kuffar

[ابو هادي]

If everybody who is not a Muslim is going to abide in hell forever, then I declare my apostasy.

[sabm90]

This is wht happens when incompetent and unsound people who have little knowledge about religion start commenting over scholars like Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri ru..!!