Barelwis, Shi’ahs, Shaykh Jailani & Ilm al-Ghayb

[Saad]

Assalam o alaykum,

Since you have quoted the above ahadith from a book of ‘Allamah Ibn al-Jawzi (may Allah have mercy on him), then why not ask him what are his views on issue of Ilm-i-ghayb? Let him be the judge on this matter?

He quotes a fatwa of Sayyiduna ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) as follows,

قال ابن عباس: هذه الخمس لا يعلمها ملَك مقرَّب ولا نبيٌّ [مرسَل] مصطفى

“These five (unseen matters) are not known to anyone; neither to any closest angel nor to most prominent prophet.” (Zad al-Masir fi ‘Ilm al-Tafsir li Ibn Jawzi, under 31:34)

And he narrates from Allamah Zajjaj (d: 311H / may Allah have mercy on him),

قال الزجاج: فمن ادَّعى أنه يعلم شيئاً من هذه كفر بالقرآن لأنه خالفه

“One who claims to know any of these five matters, he disbelieves in the Glorious Qur’an.” (Zad al-Masir fi ‘Ilm al-Tafsir li Ibn Jawzi, 31:34)

[Saad]

My point was merely that, though the scholars you listed may not be of the opinion that those hadiths are valid, there are reputable hadith scholars who have accepted them as authentic.
.

Assalam o alaykum,

Brother, you can bring as many ahad ahadith on this matter but all these ahadith will be interpreted in light of related Qur’an ayats and mutawattir ahadith on this topic. We can’t simply put away Qur’an and mutawattir ahadith and based our ‘aqaid on few ahad ahadith. This is totally against the principles of Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamat. It is from the fundamentals of Ahl al-Sunnah wal Jamat that from among other things, knowledge of the Five including the exact time of the Hour is only with Allah. Belief otherwise is tantamount to rejecting numerous ayats of the Qur'an and ahadith.

[ibn Mikael]

from the Encyclopedia of the Qur'an on the Barelwis:

The sources for the Barēlwī interpretation
of Islam and more particularly of its
prophetology (see prophets and prophethood)
are the classic ones of Qurān,
adīth (see HadIth and the qurAn) and
Islamic law ( fiqh). It is noteworthy that
Amad Riā Khān was primarily a jurist
( faqīh) and a religious scholar (ālim) rather
than a ūfī. He supported his positions regarding
the Prophet primarily with textual
citations from legal sources rather than
ūfī writings.

In qurānic exegesis, Amad
Riā Khān employed the concept of abrogation
(q.v.) to support his arguments. An
illustration of this may be seen in his views
regarding the question of the Prophet’s
knowledge of the unseen (ilm al-ghayb, see
hidden and the hidden), which he
addressed in numerous writings. Briefl y,
Amad Riā Khān’s position was that God
gave the Prophet knowledge of the unseen,
including the f ve items mentioned in
q 31:34 as known to God alone: “God has
knowledge of the hour and he sends the
rain. He knows what is in the womb. No
one knows what he will gain tomorrow and
no one knows where he will die.” Amad
Riā Khān asserted that these fi ve items
were actually a small fraction of the
Prophet’s total knowledge, which encompassed
knowledge of heaven (q.v.) and hell
(q.v.), the resurrection (q.v.), the angels (see
angel), the nature and attributes of God
(see god and his attributes) and much
else besides. Central to his argument is
both “[God] will not disclose to you the secrets
of the unseen, but he chooses of his
messengers whom he pleases” (q 3:179) as
well as “He knows the unseen. He does not
make any one acquainted with his mysteries,
except a messenger whom he has chosen”
(q 72:26-7).

In Amad Riā Khān’s formal legal
judgment ( fatwā) written in Mecca in 1905
entitled “al-Dawla al-makkiyya bi-māddat alghaybiyya,”
he argued that each time a verse
(āya) or chapter (sūra) was revealed, the
Prophet’s knowledge increased further. Although
some qurānic verses refer to Mu-
ammad’s lack of knowledge of the prophets
and of those to whom the Qurān refers
as the hypocrites, for instance, this was
only because the Qurān had not yet been
fully revealed to him. Thus, these verses
were abrogated by later ones, such as those
quoted above. By the time the revelation
was complete, the Prophet had detailed
(mufa

al) and clear knowledge of everything
(Amad Riā Khān, al-Dawla, 105).
Elsewhere in the same document (175-91),
he wrote that sometimes the Prophet was
silent about certain things such as when
judgment day (see last judgment) would
come, for he had been ordered not to reveal
them. Also he sometimes temporarily
forgot something because his mind was
preoccupied with other important matters.
Amad Riā Khān argued that “forgetting
something is not a negation of knowledge
[of that thing], rather it requires that one
have known it fi rst” (ibid., 110-12).
The concept of abrogation (q.v.) was
again employed in the context of arguments
made in 1919-20, when the Indian
religious scholars were debating whether to
support the Congress Party’s Non-Cooperation
Movement — which was largely
Hindu — and whether to invite Congress
to support their own Khilāfat Movement.
In qurānic exegesis undertaken to oppose
the above movements, Amad Riā Khān
used the exegetical principle that some
earlier qurānic verses are abrogated by
later ones to argue that q 60:8-9, in which
Muslims were told they could enter into
friendly relations with non-Muslims as long
as they were not fi ghting them, had been
abrogated by q 9:73, which advocated taking
stern measures against “unbelievers”
and “hypocrites” (see belief and unbelief;
hypocrites and hypocrisy).
Amad Riā Khān relied heavily on quotations
from the adīth and Islamic legal
texts, as well as the Qurān. He even accepted
weak adīths that elevate the
Prophet’s stature. It is interesting to note
that on several issues concerning the
Prophet he reached a position that resembles
Shīī beliefs even though his arguments
were based on Sunnī sources and not Shīī
ones. Such issues include the concept of
the pre-eminence of the Prophet’s light
which was created before God
created the spiritual or material universe
and before the creation of the fi rst prophet
Adam (see adam and eve); the belief that
God cre ated the world for the Prophet’s
sake; the belief that the Prophet’s ancestors
were believers; and the belief that the
Prophet, being made of light, had no
shadow (see shIism and the qurAn).
(

[Saad]

[B]In qurānic exegesis, Amad
Riā Khān employed the concept of abrogation
(q.v.) to support his arguments.
(

Assalam o alaykum,

An ayat doesn't become abrogated because Ahmad Rada Khan declares it to be. For that one needs decisive proof. After 1300 years, Ahmad Rada Khan shows up on the scence, makes up new beliefs and then declares all ayats and ahadith that go against his 'aqiad to be abrogated. Based on what? Few ambiguous ahadith and his personal ijtihad.

Elsewhere in the same document (175-91),
he wrote that sometimes the Prophet was
silent about certain things such as when
judgment day (see last judgment) would
come, for he had been ordered not to reveal
them

So how did Ahmad Rada Khan came to know that Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was given the knowledge of the Hour when He was ordered to keep silent about it? Did he have a revelation? What a contradiction! In many places Prophet mentioned that he doesn’t have the knowledge of the Hour but in reality he did? So in other words Prophet was speaking a lie? This is the strength of bidati proofs. Now they have gone one step further to use qiyas in the matters of 'aqaid.

I will close with a statement from our mother Sayyida Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her),

“Whoever says that Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) knows what will happen tomorrow, then he has surely put a great slander against Allah because of the saying of Allah that no one knows ghayb in the heavens and earth save Allah.” (Sahih Bukhari, 2:720; Sahih Muslim, 1:98; Abu 'Awana, 1:154)

And she said at another place,

“If any anyone tells you that Prophet knew what will happen tomorrow then he is surely a liar. Then she recited this ayat of the Qur’an, 'Verily the knowledge of the Hour is with Allah (alone) and He sends down the rain and He knows what is in the wombs. And no soul knows what it has earned for the morrow; nor does any soul know in what land it will die. Truly God is Knowing, Aware.” (Abu 'Awana, 1:155)

How unfortunate are those that are being called liars by their mother!

Now bring forth one ayat or a sahih hadith with the wording that Holy Prophet was given the knowledge of 5.

[Ahmad_shakeel]

both u hanafis

decide on what imam abu hanifa said?
im sure he knew aqida of muslims

[المفكّر]

Superb work as usual, brother Saad.

[The Fake Shaykh]

one to watch out for brother saad, from your last post the baray bhai's have a tendency and are notorious copy and paste specialists for eg you said :

So how did Ahmad Rada Khan came to know that Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was given the knowledge of the Hour when He was ordered to keep silent about it? Did he have a revelation? What a contradiction! In many places Prophet mentioned that he doesn’t have the knowledge of the Hour but in reality he did? So in other words Prophet was speaking a lie? This is the strength of bidati proofs. Now they have gone one step further to use qiyas in the matters of 'aqaid.

they will copy and paste the bold parts and you will here your name being called out on youtube soon, and there will be fatwas flying form thier load mouths, i can picture it now

coming soon in a village somewhere in pind, pakistan

a munazara between saad of sunniforum v hanif qurayshi of rawalpind

date to be announced

[Ahmad_shakeel]

coming soon in a village somewhere in pind, pakistan

a munazara between saad of sunniforum v hanif qurayshi of rawalpind

date to be announced

salam,
braodcasteded live

but yea anything can be excepted from them barelvis

[meelash]

...
(

:astagh

The blood boils to read the bolded part of this quote! Are Barelvi laymen generally aware that they believe this? I had no idea they were so bold as to say something like this against Allah.

[katana]

Instead of starting a new thread i thought i could ask the query here.

When did these following beliefs begin within the ummah

- Hadhir nadhir -omnipresent(muhammed s.a.w)

- Made of Allah s.w.a noor

- Milad un nabi - I know it began 600 years after the death of rasullah via some leader..

- Raks and handra

- He s.a.w has the entire knowledge of the universe - ilmul ghaib

I would like to know how long have these beliefs been going for.